Public Sector Pensions - Today's Times

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

that is an excellent starting pay deal if you ask me

 

They're university educated and have a post graduate qualification! It's a pittance, but the pension makes it worth while. I feel were going round in circles.

[LGTL]

that is an excellent starting pay deal if you ask me

 

It's graduate starter pay remember, in many cases postgraduate. It can't be compared to an apprentice starting out in the Navy or Army with only GCSE's. What does an officer etc straight out of training college/uni earn to begin with? Genuine question as I don't know?

[Thedelldays]

I haven't argued anywhere that you don't have it tough. But surely you can appreciate that if the boot was on the other foot, you would be ****ed off as well.

 

I would be peed off...but I would also look around (like I have done lately as I very much hate my job at the mo) and think I have a good deal going on at the mo...

I get paid no matter... get some sort of holiday at some point and a bit of job security...well, I avoided ONE FITH that are being made redundant...ffs

if the world was like it was pre 2008..I would probably leave..but you have to look at your lot....and right now, I have a secure job and I am very thankful for that

[Seaford Saint]

Me and my Mrs have done OK from our final salary pensions in the private sector and are probably looking at £30K a year between us when we retire, it's £17K currently.

 

Doesn't it strike any of you right wing idiots that the conclusion from all this will be a generation of very poor pensioners in the years to come. How are they going to feed themselves without a decent pension? What happens when they need nursing care and the right wingers has got their way and dismantled the national health service?

 

Sorry and all that. I just think you right wingers are thick and stupid.

[dune]

that is an excellent starting pay deal if you ask me

 

Especially when you factor in all the holidays they get.

[Thedelldays]

It's graduate starter pay remember, in many cases postgraduate. It can't be compared to an apprentice starting out in the Navy or Army with only GCSE's. What does an officer etc straight out of training college/uni earn to begin with? Genuine question as I don't know?

a midshipman would start on just under £16k....those who not only have graduated from Uni, but also from dartmouth...

when they become Sub Lt, they go up to circe £23k....

[View From The Top]

pay into my pension..hmmm I pay tax....lol

you are right, I would not be happy at all...what could I do about it if it happened...NOTHING...get on with it or leave......

the MoD did change their pension scheme in 2005...so we did ours before everyone else...

 

So you get a big fat, paid for by the tax payer, final salary pension after 22 years service without paying 1p into it?

 

You're right, the choice is suck it up or leave, same choice as I have. My worry is that we won't have enough good maths and science graduates in the future and that is bad for all of us. God knows we are awfully short of them now.

Edited 17 June, 2011 by View From The Top

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Tell me about it, although I should hopefully miss out on that pathetic proposal by at least a year or two. As you rightly say, how will the Tories use "the city" to "create wealth" without anyone to teach them in their early life? Who on earth is going to spend three years studying the Sciences, Humanities and Maths only to come out with £50k debt, a crap starting salary and a rapidly depressing pension! Still, at least we know we are all in it for the right reasons.

 

With the marxist ideology of so many teachers I suspect that many kids will just leave school and go and live in a commune.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Me and my Mrs have done OK from our final salary pensions in the private sector and are probably looking at £30K a year between us when we retire, it's £17K currently.

 

Doesn't it strike any of you right wing idiots that the conclusion from all this will be a generation of very poor pensioners in the years to come. How are they going to feed themselves without a decent pension? What happens when they need nursing care and the right wingers has got their way and dismantled the national health service?

 

Sorry and all that. I just think you right wingers are thick and stupid.

 

You seem to have forgotton to mention how to finance this all. You seem to have a Greek mentality; one day the bail outs will stop.

[Verbal]

With the marxist ideology of so many teachers I suspect that many kids will just leave school and go and live in a commune.

 

Where exactly are all these 'communes', Sergei? And name ONE teacher who believes in and teaches 'marxist ideology'.

 

Meanwhile, back on earth (and back to the thread)...

[View From The Top]

With the marxist ideology of so many teachers I suspect that many kids will just leave school and go and live in a commune.

 

Cuckoo, cuckoo.

[LGTL]

With the marxist ideology of so many teachers I suspect that many kids will just leave school and go and live in a commune.

 

And you have Nazi ideologies.

 

Oh, nothing like a stereotype is there.

[badgerx16]

I think the vast majority of people will welcome the public sector pensions reforms. It's gobsmacking how they only pay an average of 5% in contributions.

Yet more balony :

If your Whole time Pay Rate is: You pay a contribution rate of:

Up to £12,900 5.5%

£12,901 to £15,100 5.8%

£15,101 to £19,400 5.9%

£19,401 to £32,400 6.5%

£32,401 to £43,300 6.8%

£43,301 to £81,100 7.2%

More than £81,100 7.5%

 

Edited 17 June, 2011 by badgerx16

[badgerx16]

A question for the teachers and 'significant others' of teachers :

 

How many days of the summer "holidays" do you / they work ? I know for myself that my wife probably does a minimum 2 weeks of work during this 'break'. And the proportion is similar for Easter & Xmas.

[revolution saint]

I think the teachers should do a charity record for the private sector, maybe 'Do they know it's summertime'? That way they could draw attention to a forgotten group of people who as this thread has shown just get on with things and very rarely moan.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Where exactly are all these 'communes', Sergei? And name ONE teacher who believes in and teaches 'marxist ideology'.

 

Meanwhile, back on earth (and back to the thread)...

 

Wales I think.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

A question for the teachers and 'significant others' of teachers :

 

How many days of the summer "holidays" do you / they work ? I know for myself that my wife probably does a minimum 2 weeks of work during this 'break'. And the proportion is similar for Easter & Xmas.

 

I work at least three of the six weeks in the summer, and one of the two weeks at both Easter and Xmas. Half Terms are devoted purely to work. However, I've been appointed a second in department for September so I envisage those three week in the summer will become four or five this year.

 

My missus is head of KS3 English, so she'll be lucky to get three weeks holiday throughout the course of the year. But hey, no one cares about facts.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

With the marxist ideology of so many teachers I suspect that many kids will just leave school and go and live in a commune.

 

Idiot

[dune]

Idiot

 

You're slacking Andy. I expected some witty comment after this.

 

And you have Nazi ideologies.

 

Oh, nothing like a stereotype is there.

[dune]

I work at least three of the six weeks in the summer, and one of the two weeks at both Easter and Xmas. Half Terms are devoted purely to work. However, I've been appointed a second in department for September so I envisage those three week in the summer will become four or five this year.

 

My missus is head of KS3 English, so she'll be lucky to get three weeks holiday throughout the course of the year. But hey, no one cares about facts.

 

Does this mean you're trading in the Volvo and cancelling the caravan holiday to France?

[View From The Top]

A question for the teachers and 'significant others' of teachers :

 

How many days of the summer "holidays" do you / they work ? I know for myself that my wife probably does a minimum 2 weeks of work during this 'break'. And the proportion is similar for Easter & Xmas.

 

I'm go to work for one week of the Easter holidays, the May 1/2 term and 10 days before the students go back in September. I'm usually in around NY as well and I don't get paid for doing so. I do it to give my students the best chance I can of passing their exams. Easter and May are given over to extra lessons/revision/exam prep', August is to make sure everything is OK for September and NY is usually admin.

 

I don't go in during the October or Feb' 1/2 terms as we are usually away.

 

No one forces me to do it, I do it because my students matter to me.

[View From The Top]

Wales I think.

 

Bloody foreigners.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Does this mean you're trading in the Volvo and cancelling the caravan holiday to France?

 

C'mon dunce, I'm only 25. I have a Ford Fiesta and can hardly afford a season ticket, let alone a caravan!

[Stu Man Do]

I note from reading today’s Times that Public Sector Unions are up in arms at Danny Alexander’s plans to raise the pension age in line with that of the private sector – In his words: “it’s unjustifiable to ask the taxpayer to work longer and pay more so that public sector workers can retire earlier and receive more”.

 

I bring this up as my missus has just qualified as a teacher and is slowly being brainwashed by her financially secure baby boomer colleagues with paid off mortgages and money in the bank. Last night she actually brought out the old “people became teachers because whilst the wages were low the pension was good”. Sorry but:

 

A- The country’s skint

B- Where in these teacher’s contracts doe’s it guarantee gold plated, recession proof busting pensions 9I only ask as in the Private Sector everything refers back to your contract

C- They get guaranteed wage rises every year, this year was the first year in 3 we did at my place (2%)

D- Striking will turn the public against them despite the undoubtedly amazing job they do

 

I am honestly seeing a savvy girl being brainwashed by the militant older teachers at her school. Fortunately I was able to make her see sense last night and I will continue to do so but I feel for other new members of the important public sector that don’t have an intelligent other at home to provide valuable balance to any argument.

 

Without looking for an argument;

Point C - There is a pay scale in which there are 6 main points which should see an increase in each of the first 6 years, however you are supposed to meet 3 performance management targets. After that there is a rise perhaps every other year based on each years targets. Its upto the Head to then decide if they will raise your pay or not.

[JackanorySFC]

Without looking for an argument;

Point C - There is a pay scale in which there are 6 main points which should see an increase in each of the first 6 years, however you are supposed to meet 3 performance management targets. After that there is a rise perhaps every other year based on each years targets. Its upto the Head to then decide if they will raise your pay or not.

 

I know, I'm the son of a deputy head, cousin to a head, nephew to 2 secondary teachers and boyfriend to an NQT. None have heard of more than 1 or 2 cases where teachers dint get their grade upd in the summer. You need to be seriously out of line not to get it.

[JackanorySFC]

C'mon dunce, I'm only 25. I have a Ford Fiesta and can hardly afford a season ticket, let alone a caravan!

 

So your a 25 year old teacher that isn't going upa grade in September? Seriously, your salary isn't going up in September?

[dune]

So your a 25 year old teacher that isn't going upa grade in September? Seriously, your salary isn't going up in September?

 

Does this mean the Caravan holiday is back on?

[JackanorySFC]

Why, check out the poor teachers "honestly I do work for x weeks in the summer and part if Christmas and a few days over Easter".... Quick question:

 

How much more would you need to get paid for you to be happy with 20 days (+bank holidays) like the rest of us that NEVER do a minutes work beyond 9-5 (I must gave missed a trick there as I've been up since 5.30 and just got in - because my above average wages need to pay for your 12 weeks and my gf's skiing hol in feb 1/2 term).

[JackanorySFC]

Why is it always left v right? I come from a staunch labour voting family and I voted for them in 97, 01, and 05. It's common sense vs unrealistic and unsustainable ideology surely?

[View From The Top]

Why, check out the poor teachers "honestly I do work for x weeks in the summer and part if Christmas and a few days over Easter".... Quick question:

 

How much more would you need to get paid for you to be happy with 20 days (+bank holidays) like the rest of us that NEVER do a minutes work beyond 9-5 (I must gave missed a trick there as I've been up since 5.30 and just got in - because my above average wages need to pay for your 12 weeks and my gf's skiing hol in feb 1/2 term).

 

I'm comfortable with my salary, I don't do it for the money and I NEVER complain about it as I know that it's my choice to do the job, same way it's the choice that makes me give up some of my holiday for my students.

 

That's the thing about being a good teacher, and I accept that there are some lazy, sh*t teachers, is that it has never been about money, holiday, perks etc, it's what we in our core. Old fashioned perhaps, but true nevertheless. That's why I'm proud to work with the people I do and why we've been nationally recognised and rewarded. Not bad for a convicted football hooligan with jail time.

 

You've chosen your path with your above average salary and T&Cs yet feel it necessary to criticise others for their career choice and their T&Cs. Strikes me as being a tad sad really.

[View From The Top]

Why is it always left v right? I come from a staunch labour voting family and I voted for them in 97, 01, and 05. It's common sense vs unrealistic and unsustainable ideology surely?

 

Maybe we don't all feel as if "we're in it together" when the likes of Vodaphone can avoid billions in tax.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

So your a 25 year old teacher that isn't going upa grade in September? Seriously, your salary isn't going up in September?

 

Once again you have missed the point. I'm going up to MPS3 but that pay has not risen - do you understand?

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

I'm comfortable with my salary, I don't do it for the money and I NEVER complain about it as I know that it's my choice to do the job, same way it's the choice that makes me give up some of my holiday for my students.

 

That's the thing about being a good teacher, and I accept that there are some lazy, sh*t teachers, is that it has never been about money, holiday, perks etc, it's what we in our core. Old fashioned perhaps, but true nevertheless. That's why I'm proud to work with the people I do and why we've been nationally recognised and rewarded. Not bad for a convicted football hooligan with jail time.

 

You've chosen your path with your above average salary and T&Cs yet feel it necessary to criticise others for their career choice and their T&Cs. Strikes me as being a tad sad really.

 

I couldn't have put it better. Well said.

[hamster]

Who's next then? Police and firefighters working til they are 60, 70? If your.aspiration is to lower everyone else's status until they are below yourself then be verycqreful what you wish for, you might nor find that land of milk & honey has a slightly bitter taste.

 

The problem.really.is not at the.bottom imho. Why are HCC splashing 150 mill on seniors pay offs while Rome burns?

[stu0x]

I work in the public sector. I graduated from a very good university with a very good professional degree, and had a very good job in the private sector. I found it unfulfilling and demotivating, so took a 50% pay cut and changed my career. I went into it with my eyes wide open. I knew I would earn substantially less than if I continued doing my old job, but I figured job satisfaction was more important to me. I didn't do it for the salary, and I didn't do it for the pension, although it was obviously nice to know that I did have that security. I don't regret that decision at all. Or at least didn't, until very recently.

 

It feels very much like the goalposts have moved. I know that we are in the poo. I know that we all have to face some tough choices. But it feels like I am being expected to shoulder a disproportionate amount of the burden. The changes already made or proposed to my pension scheme in the last couple of months have wiped about 30% off its value. If the retirement age changes, that will be (for me) another 20% off. If the calculation changes come in, that will be anywhere between 10% and 50% of the remainder gone. That is, by anyone's count, a pretty huge dent. That's without mentioning any of the other pay and condition changes.

 

And the best thing is, it's totally unnecessary. The actual impact of the public sector pension schemes has been massively overstated. All the research shows that the vast majority of the burden is being funded by current participants. By going for insane overkill, the government will just force people to withdraw from the scheme completely, decimating contributions and in all likelihood causing the gap to widen, not narrow.

 

I think the greatest trick that the government has pulled in all this is to pit 'private sector' against 'public sector'. It's simply not that cut and dried, but they've done a brilliant spin job on each to demonise the other, thus when either gets screwed there is no sympathy. Divide and conquer. Superb.

 

We ALL, regardless of which 'sector' we work in, have an interest in protecting ALL of our pay and conditions. If the public sector suffers, the private sector suffers, and vice versa. Some of you talk about 'taxpayers' as if public sector works don't pay tax... equally, where do you think your wages come from? They don't fall out of thin air. We all, sooner or later, pay each others wages.

 

And to think, the deficit could be negated almost overnight with proper reform of the welfare and tax systems... but then, that would upset all those people that are needed to get re-elected, wouldn't it...

[bridge too far]

^^^^^ StuOx

 

Well said that man! I was going to participate in this debate but you've put it all so succinctly that nothing more needs to be added.

 

Apart from the fact that, currently, public sector pensions ARE self-funding. Many years down the line that may not be true but don't be swayed by the hysterical comments of the right-wing press.

 

If people pull out of the public sector pension schemes because they can't afford them, they'll only have to be paid pension credits etc when eventually they do retire and that'll probably cost a fair bit more.

 

The BBC has published a fact sheet

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13775278

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I work in the public sector. I graduated from a very good university with a very good professional degree, and had a very good job in the private sector. I found it unfulfilling and demotivating, so took a 50% pay cut and changed my career. I went into it with my eyes wide open. I knew I would earn substantially less than if I continued doing my old job, but I figured job satisfaction was more important to me. I didn't do it for the salary, and I didn't do it for the pension, although it was obviously nice to know that I did have that security. I don't regret that decision at all. Or at least didn't, until very recently.

 

It feels very much like the goalposts have moved. I know that we are in the poo. I know that we all have to face some tough choices. But it feels like I am being expected to shoulder a disproportionate amount of the burden. The changes already made or proposed to my pension scheme in the last couple of months have wiped about 30% off its value. If the retirement age changes, that will be (for me) another 20% off. If the calculation changes come in, that will be anywhere between 10% and 50% of the remainder gone. That is, by anyone's count, a pretty huge dent. That's without mentioning any of the other pay and condition changes.

 

And the best thing is, it's totally unnecessary. The actual impact of the public sector pension schemes has been massively overstated. All the research shows that the vast majority of the burden is being funded by current participants. By going for insane overkill, the government will just force people to withdraw from the scheme completely, decimating contributions and in all likelihood causing the gap to widen, not narrow.

 

I think the greatest trick that the government has pulled in all this is to pit 'private sector' against 'public sector'. It's simply not that cut and dried, but they've done a brilliant spin job on each to demonise the other, thus when either gets screwed there is no sympathy. Divide and conquer. Superb.

 

We ALL, regardless of which 'sector' we work in, have an interest in protecting ALL of our pay and conditions. If the public sector suffers, the private sector suffers, and vice versa. Some of you talk about 'taxpayers' as if public sector works don't pay tax... equally, where do you think your wages come from? They don't fall out of thin air. We all, sooner or later, pay each others wages.

 

And to think, the deficit could be negated almost overnight with proper reform of the welfare and tax systems... but then, that would upset all those people that are needed to get re-elected, wouldn't it...

 

The private sector pays for the public sector. Make the private sector flourish and everything clicks into place. However distasteful you find entrepreneurs and bankers, they fund everything.

 

The unions contributed as much as Maggie did to the dismantling of the manufacturing base of the country.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

^^^^^ StuOx

 

Well said that man! I was going to participate in this debate but you've put it all so succinctly that nothing more needs to be added.

 

Apart from the fact that, currently, public sector pensions ARE self-funding. Many years down the line that may not be true but don't be swayed by the hysterical comments of the right-wing press.

 

If people pull out of the public sector pension schemes because they can't afford them, they'll only have to be paid pension credits etc when eventually they do retire and that'll probably cost a fair bit more.

 

The BBC has published a fact sheet

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13775278

 

Yes I thought the BBC would. Gordon Brown raided private sector final salary pensions to pay for his bloated public sector client base.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Maybe we don't all feel as if "we're in it together" when the likes of Vodaphone can avoid billions in tax.

 

So you expect company's to not look for tax loopholes? They save money, and pay shareholders who spend money and keep the economy rolling.

[JackanorySFC]

VFTT where have I criticised teachers career choices? Please point out a single sentence where I've done that and I'll hold my hands up? As the son, nephew, cousin and boyfriend to teachers I would never do that as I know how hard they work and the amazing fulfilment they get from it too. However.... We (us working, sorry to ram this home over and over, far far longer hours with more stress, less holiday and far far less job security without a pension to **** in) slightly begrudge those not willing to work longer, as we do (and I guarantee I'll be working til I drop, no choice as my companies pension scheme was Phased out 3 years ago) without complaining.

 

Those saying how hard they work in the summer, I simply want to know if they'd swap those marking days they are at pains to point out they do for the average holiday of someone earning £21k a year - is 20 days+ bank holidays?

[JackanorySFC]

Once again you have missed the point. I'm going up to MPS3 but that pay has not risen - do you understand?

 

How have I missed the point? I've repeatedly asked you if you are going to get paid more in September than you are now? MSP2-3 is an extra £1300 a year isnt it? Result you've had there fella!

 

Here's a fact of life for you, believe it or not us lot working 15 hour days with little job satisfaction other than knowing our wages pay for the armed forces, nurses and teachers of this great country, get pay rises based on performance too. Wow, bombshell eh? Only thing is, in 08, 09 and 10 even if you were marked top 5/5) you didn't get any pay rise. Only this year thanks to a return to growth have rises returned, the top tier being 2%, on a salary of £30k that's a whopping £600!

Edited 17 June, 2011 by JackanorySFC
Slack teachers couldn't teach me spell probably - prob thinking of their next holiday!

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

VFTT where have I criticised teachers career choices? Please point out a single sentence where I've done that and I'll hold my hands up? As the son, nephew, cousin and boyfriend to teachers I would never do that as I know how hard they work and the amazing fulfilment they get from it too. However.... We (us working, sorry to ram this home over and over, far far longer hours with more stress, less holiday and far far less job security without a pension to **** in) slightly begrudge those not willing to work longer, as we do (and I guarantee I'll be working til I drop, no choice as my companies pension scheme was Phased out 3 years ago) without complaining.

 

Those saying how hard they work in the summer, I simply want to know if they'd swap those marking days they are at pains to point out they do for the average holiday of someone earning £21k a year - is 20 days+ bank holidays?

 

If you're related to so many teachers, maybe you should join them for a week and see if you can stick it?

[View From The Top]

Those saying how hard they work in the summer, I simply want to know if they'd swap those marking days they are at pains to point out they do for the average holiday of someone earning £21k a year - is 20 days+ bank holidays?

 

If they pro rata'd the pay and allowed us to take our holidays when we wanted to then I reckon 50%+ off my staff would (the young(er) ones with big mortgages). I wouldn't because I choose to work in the style I do.

[View From The Top]

So you expect company's to not look for tax loopholes? They save money, and pay shareholders who spend money and keep the economy rolling.

 

I expect companies to pay tax in the same way I have to.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

How have I missed the point? I've repeatedly asked you if you are going to get paid more in September than you are now? MSP2-3 is an extra £1300 a year isnt it? Result you've had there fella!

 

Here's a fact of life for you, believe it or not us lot working 15 hour days with little job satisfaction other than knowing our wages pay fir the armed forces, nurses and teachers of this great country, get pay ruses based on performance too. Wow, bombshell eh? Only thing is, in 08, 09 and 10 even if you were marked top 5/5) you didn't get any Pay rise. Only this tear thanks to a return to growth have ruses returned, the top tier being 2%. on a salary of £30k that's a whopping £600!

 

Then get out of your dead end career. Don't think I'm going to feel sorry for you. No, it won't be a £1300 increase, are you mental? Jesus Christ! Read some literature on the subject, my wage might go up in per annum terms, but with the rise in inflation etc it ends up becoming a pay cut: 1% reduction in wages, with a possible further 5-10% wage cut next year Perhaps the maths is too hard...

Edited 17 June, 2011 by Thorpe-le-Saint

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I'm comfortable with my salary, I don't do it for the money and I NEVER complain about it as I know that it's my choice to do the job, same way it's the choice that makes me give up some of my holiday for my students.

 

That's the thing about being a good teacher, and I accept that there are some lazy, sh*t teachers, is that it has never been about money, holiday, perks etc, it's what we in our core. Old fashioned perhaps, but true nevertheless. That's why I'm proud to work with the people I do and why we've been nationally recognised and rewarded. Not bad for a convicted football hooligan with jail time.

 

You've chosen your path with your above average salary and T&Cs yet feel it necessary to criticise others for their career choice and their T&Cs. Strikes me as being a tad sad really.

 

Job security is quite an incentive - how many teachers have been sacked in the last 15 years for not being up to the job? How many people in the private sector would have kept their job for being a convicted football hooligan? (I acknowledge the fact that it was an absurdely political conviction)

Edited 17 June, 2011 by Sergei Gotsmanov

[LGTL]

Jackanory always produces the best discussions in the lounge, you should post more mate.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Then get out of your dead end career. Don't think I'm going to feel sorry for you. No, it won't be a £1300 increase, are you mental? Jesus Christ! Read some literature on the subject, my wage might go up in per annum terms, but with the rise in inflation etc it ends up becoming a pay cut. Perhaps the maths is too hard...

 

Please do not lecture us on maths when we are advocating balancing the Nation's books.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

If you're related to so many teachers, maybe you should join them for a week and see if you can stick it?

 

how many teachers was it that have been sacked for not being good at their jobs?

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Please do not lecture us on maths when we are advocating balancing the Nation's books.

 

I'll say it again, tell me there is no cash around when we are funding a war in Afghanistan and a war in Lybia.