dune Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-13727908 I think it's a disgrace how historical fact is being altered to make the film politically correct. It was just the same with Hollywoods depiction of the Telmarines from the Chronicles of Narnia. C.S.Lewis portrayed them as Muslims, yet Hollywood portrayed them as Spanish Conquistadors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Are you really surprised though dune? It was pretty inevitable really. And FWIW, I agree with what Stephen Fry said in that article... "The name of the dog was a code word to show that the dam had been successfully breached. In the film, you're constantly hearing 'N-word, N-word, N-word, hurray' and Barnes Wallis is punching the air. But obviously that's not going to happen now." But then cultural sensitivity has never really been your strong point has it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 12 June, 2011 Author Share Posted 12 June, 2011 A dramatisation of an actual event should be accurate, especially an event of such historical importance. If some people find the Dambusters story offensive then that's their problem. I think we should all be proud of what was achieved and not apologetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 A dramatisation of an actual event should be accurate, especially an event of such historical importance. If some people find the Dambusters story offensive then that's their problem. I think we should all be proud of what was achieved and not apologetic. Phil Bonner, from Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire, said: "I think for the Second World War generation that word was acceptable. But with my daughters growing up in Lincolnshire, they have been taught that the word is unacceptable now. "The film is not about the dog. My big concern would be if they watered down what the Dam Busters had achieved." I don't think anybody is suggesting that the achievements of Barnes Wallis and 617 squadron are offensive. Far from it in fact, and that's probably why this remake is being made so that the younger generation, who may be unaware of the story, can be informed of what an outstanding achievement it was. But surely you can see why this decision has been taken can't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeem Hardison Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 A dramatisation of an actual event should be accurate Don't be daft. This never has been the case and never will. It is a film to be made for entertainment. If they ever made a film just to be factually accurate, it would be **** and boring. You aren't this thick, dune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 12 June, 2011 Author Share Posted 12 June, 2011 If they ever made a film just to be factually accurate, it would be **** and boring. Historical films are at their best when they are accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 12 June, 2011 Author Share Posted 12 June, 2011 But surely you can see why this decision has been taken can't you? To placate the Liberal Elite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 (edited) Historical films are at their best when they are accurate. FWIW, the orginal B&W film is NOT entirely historically accurate : http://www.sirbarneswallis.com/DamBusters.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dam_Busters_%28film%29#Historical_inaccuracies If the only issue in the new film is renaming the dog, I think that's an extremely understandable and very minor point. Edited 12 June, 2011 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Historical films are at their best when they are accurate. Name me a film based on historical events that is 100% accurate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryoman1965 Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 The dogs name is ******. I don't see a problem with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 To placate the Liberal Elite. True. I feel utterly placated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 12 June, 2011 Author Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Name me a film based on historical events that is 100% accurate? Good historical films at least stick to the main facts. By changing the dogs name and the codeword (a core piece of the story - to appease the Liberal Elite) is a disgrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Good historical films at least stick to the main facts. By changing the dogs name and the codeword (a core piece of the story - to appease the Liberal Elite) is a disgrace. And in what sense is a dog's name a 'main fact'. It is surely a main fact only to those obsessed with race. If Fry was proposing to show the Dambusters dropping bombs on Neasden, that would be a salient altering of a 'main fact'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 12 June, 2011 Author Share Posted 12 June, 2011 (edited) Mervyn Hallam, curator of RAF Scampton museum, today slammed the change and accused Fry of trying to ‘rewrite history’. He said: ‘It’s not a problem with coloured people it’s the people in power creating the problem. Sod their political correctness and sod human rights. ‘‘We have over 9,000 visitors a year at RAF Scampton and many of them are not native to England but none of them are offended. ‘****** is the name of the dog and that shouldn’t be interfered with. In the context of the time and the film it’s not a racist name.’ Jim Shortland, a historian who specialises in the Dambusters, added: ‘I’m unhappy with the change because it’s sacrificing historical accuracy for political correctness, in particular for the American market. ‘If someone was offended by Guy Gibson’s name you wouldn’t go around calling him Richard Todd. ‘One wonders what else the film might get wrong. Once you know something is incorrect, you’re going to be suspicious.’ http://racismdaily.com/2011/06/10/dam-busters-remake-will-change-dogs-name-to-digger-critics-want-******-name-to-remain/ Edited 12 June, 2011 by dune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 The problem is that Stanley, when he's off on his NF rallies, (do you still go on them Tris'?) uses the term n i g g e r, coon, spade, jungle bunny as everyday language and his limited IQ can't quite understand why the vast majority understand why it will be changed in the film. How changing n i g g e r to digger changes the story of some very brave men is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Good historical films at least stick to the main facts. By changing the dogs name and the codeword (a core piece of the story - to appease the Liberal Elite) is a disgrace. I very much suspect that the new film about the dambusters will be far more historically accurate than the earlier version. Shall we wait and see.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Mervyn Hallam, curator of RAF Scampton museum, today slammed the change and accused Fry of trying to ‘rewrite history’. He said: ‘It’s not a problem with coloured people it’s the people in power creating the problem. Sod their political correctness and sod human rights. ‘‘We have over 9,000 visitors a year at RAF Scampton and many of them are not native to England but none of them are offended. ‘****** is the name of the dog and that shouldn’t be interfered with. In the context of the time and the film it’s not a racist name.’ Jim Shortland, a historian who specialises in the Dambusters, added: ‘I’m unhappy with the change because it’s sacrificing historical accuracy for political correctness, in particular for the American market. ‘If someone was offended by Guy Gibson’s name you wouldn’t go around calling him Richard Todd. ‘One wonders what else the film might get wrong. Once you know something is incorrect, you’re going to be suspicious.’ http://racismdaily.com/2011/06/10/dam-busters-remake-will-change-dogs-name-to-digger-critics-want-******-name-to-remain/ Would Mervyn be bothered if the dogs name was Analcvntface? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 12 June, 2011 Author Share Posted 12 June, 2011 The problem is that Stanley, when he's off on his NF rallies, (do you still go on them Tris'?) uses the term n i g g e r, coon, spade, jungle bunny as everyday language and his limited IQ can't quite understand why the vast majority understand why it will be changed in the film. How changing n i g g e r to digger changes the story of some very brave men is beyond me. Only ever attended 1 counter demo which was against Al mahajiroun (who were late linked with the 7/7 bombings). They planned to march at Trafalgar Square and I was totally against this. A good many Saints fans demonstrated in Luton before the Peterborough away game. I expect you know a few of them. The name change is wrong because it was not only the dogs name, but the codeword used during the mission. It might not be PC but it is an integral part of the story. If operation Market Garden or Operation Overlord had been named after the dog presumably they would not have been allowed to be used nowadays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 The name change is wrong because it was not only the dogs name, but the codeword used during the mission. It might not be PC but it is an integral part of the story. Care to comment on the inaccuracies in the original ? Such as Barnes Wallis not being the chief designer of the Wellington, that Gibson did not devise the twin lights system, etc, etc. Surely they are equally integral parts of an accurate story ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 To placate the Liberal Elite. it's worked! great news, made my day. Thanks for starting such a happy, upbeat thread, Dune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 12 June, 2011 Author Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Care to comment on the inaccuracies in the original ? Such as Barnes Wallis not being the chief designer of the Wellington, that Gibson did not devise the twin lights system, etc, etc. Surely they are equally integral parts of an accurate story ? Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Dune, stop being a c*nt for the sake of it, I think its pretty self explanatory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeem Hardison Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Historical films are at their best when they are accurate. Name one film that is historically accurate and hasn't changed anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 12 June, 2011 Author Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Dune, stop being a c*nt for the sake of it, I think its pretty self explanatory But who is offended. I suspect that most black people would not be offended but instead take the use of the word in the context of the era in which it was used. As ever it's always the Liberal Elite (who are usually middle class white people) banging the PC drum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Name one film that is historically accurate and hasn't changed anything. Breakdance 2? (Electric boogaloo) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 12 June, 2011 Author Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Name one film that is historically accurate and hasn't changed anything. As i've said the best historical films are those which are closest to the historical facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 This is why I chose dunce as the funniest poster on the forum: When he tries to engage in intelligent debate he falls at the first. What a numpty that curator from the RAF museum is: "In the context of the time and the film it’s not a racist name" - correct me if I'm wrong, but the dog was a black Lab? Therefore calling it that name is still racist REGARDLESS of the ****ing time it was said in. People knew it was racist then (i.e. it differentiated them from black people based on the colour of their skin) and where the word has it's origins (the slave trade) but were ignorant to the fact that it offended black people; it was part of their 'everyday' lexicon. Even if they were totally oblivious to the offence it would have caused approx seventy years ago, IT IS STILL RACIST you muppet. Can't you get hot under the collar about something that actually matters dunce? Like the number of hilarious U-turns your government is having to make in their policy for example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 As i've said the best historical films are those which are closest to the historical facts. Englighten us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 (edited) Times change and we change with them. In 1943 the name of the dog had nothing to do with being offensive to people of a different skin colour and was derived from the latin word 'niger' which means 'black' and is the root of the french 'noire' and the spanish 'negro'. In fact, I remember as a child coming across the phrase 'n****r black' and there was nothing pejorative about it. However, this word is offensive to some people and I can understand why it is not used today. I would feel happier about this if certain american comedians and others were also to stop using it. Edited 12 June, 2011 by Whitey Grandad confusing my spanish and italian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 But who is offended. I suspect that most black people would not be offended but instead take the use of the word in the context of the era in which it was used. As ever it's always the Liberal Elite (who are usually middle class white people) banging the PC drum. It was a black dog called n*gger in a time were it was acceptable, now it is not. As much as I hate the PC drum that seems to all so often be banged, this is one issue that I can see sense in it, the fact that it is you posting for a reaction pretty much proves it. If it was a foriegn movie using a derogatory term against the english you would be all over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Englighten us... As in 'the age of englightenment'? (yes, I know, we've all done it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 12 June, 2011 Author Share Posted 12 June, 2011 This is why I chose dunce as the funniest poster on the forum: When he tries to engage in intelligent debate he falls at the first. What a numpty that curator from the RAF museum is: "In the context of the time and the film it’s not a racist name" - correct me if I'm wrong, but the dog was a black Lab? Therefore calling it that name is still racist REGARDLESS of the ****ing time it was said in. People knew it was racist then (i.e. it differentiated them from black people based on the colour of their skin) and where the word has it's origins (the slave trade) but were ignorant to the fact that it offended black people; it was part of their 'everyday' lexicon. Even if they were totally oblivious to the offence it would have caused approx seventy years ago, IT IS STILL RACIST you muppet. So because it's a term you don't like it should be airbrushed from history? Do you tear pages out of your history text books that you don't like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 12 June, 2011 Author Share Posted 12 June, 2011 It was a black dog called n*gger in a time were it was acceptable, now it is not. As much as I hate the PC drum that seems to all so often be banged, this is one issue that I can see sense in it, the fact that it is you posting for a reaction pretty much proves it. If it was a foriegn movie using a derogatory term against the english you would be all over it. Such as Hollywood using English accents for the bad guys? It happens regularly but I have never complained. Take the Lord of the Rings - listen to the accents of the Orcs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Such as Hollywood using English accents for the bad guys? It happens regularly but I have never complained. Take the Lord of the Rings - listen to the accents of the Orcs. And what is an Orc's true accent then ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 12 June, 2011 Author Share Posted 12 June, 2011 And what is an Orc's true accent then ? Tolkien will have known and perhaps it's documented somewhere, but it was very predictable that hollywood gave them English accents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Such as Hollywood using English accents for the bad guys? It happens regularly but I have never complained. Take the Lord of the Rings - listen to the accents of the Orcs. So the fact that Gandalf, the hobbits, the elves, and all the human populations of Gondor and Rohan (basically ALL the good guys) had English accents as well means nothing to you??? Muppet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Lungs Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Mervyn Hallam, curator of RAF Scampton museum, today slammed the change and accused Fry of trying to ‘rewrite history’. He said: ‘It’s not a problem with coloured people it’s the people in power creating the problem. Sod their political correctness and sod human rights. ‘‘We have over 9,000 visitors a year at RAF Scampton and many of them are not native to England but none of them are offended. ‘****** is the name of the dog and that shouldn’t be interfered with. In the context of the time and the film it’s not a racist name.’ Jim Shortland, a historian who specialises in the Dambusters, added: ‘I’m unhappy with the change because it’s sacrificing historical accuracy for political correctness, in particular for the American market. ‘If someone was offended by Guy Gibson’s name you wouldn’t go around calling him Richard Todd. ‘One wonders what else the film might get wrong. Once you know something is incorrect, you’re going to be suspicious.’ http://racismdaily.com/2011/06/10/dam-busters-remake-will-change-dogs-name-to-digger-critics-want-******-name-to-remain/ All 9,000 visitors? I think when you're marketing a big budget movie like this, it's a bit different. Besides, I'm not actually offended that there is name change. If it was something like "Porky" and it was forcibly changed in case it offended muslims then yes, that would be crazy as "Porky" isn't a derogatory term. The difference is that "******" is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 So big surprise then that we're still waiting for dune to list one film - just ONE film - that is 100% accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Tolkien will have known and perhaps it's documented somewhere, but it was very predictable that hollywood gave them English accents. I was more concerned with the story-line inaccuracies in the filmed trilogy, especially the elves somehow turning up at Helm's Deep. Absolutely disgraceful abuse of a much loved masterpiece of English literature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 12 June, 2011 Author Share Posted 12 June, 2011 So the fact that Gandalf, the hobbits, the elves, and all the human populations of Gondor and Rohan (basically ALL the good guys) had English accents as well means nothing to you??? Muppet. The hobbits had American accents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Dune is right about the English accent thing, you see it in loads of films. Think it's easy for the Yanks to associate the English accent with the bad guys because of the history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 12 June, 2011 Author Share Posted 12 June, 2011 I was more concerned with the story-line inaccuracies in the filmed trilogy, especially the elves somehow turning up at Helm's Deep. Absolutely disgraceful abuse of a much loved masterpiece of English literature. Been a long time since I read the book, but I know a lot was missed out. That said the films were very good. If you read the Chronicles of Narnia they too are a masterpiece, but the films were attrocious. The whole story is lost and replaced with epic battle scenes that form only a small part of the chronicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Tolkien will have known and perhaps it's documented somewhere, but it was very predictable that hollywood gave them English accents. Well yes, given that the book was written by an Englishman, and that a lot of the actors used were British-based, it probably made perfect sense. You're going to have to give us a much better example if you want us all to accept your notion that 'Hollywood uses English accents for the bad guys'. Come on... Give me an example of a Hollywood film, set in the US with an American protagonist, where the bad guy had an English accent. And it doesn't count if the actor playing the bad guy happens to be English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 12 June, 2011 Author Share Posted 12 June, 2011 And it doesn't count if the actor playing the bad guy happens to be English. Of course it counts. In myriad american films the director seeks out an Englishman to play the bad guy(s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 The hobbits had American accents. Are you serious dune? Frodo - played by an American doing an attempt at a posh English accent Samwise - played by an American actor doing a South-west English accent Meriadoc - played by an English actor doing a similarly south-west English accent Pippin - played by a Scottish actor making no attempt to disguise his Scottish accent Bilbo - played by Ian Holm who is about as English as they come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Titanic is a classic example, they had to make Jack Dawson Irish even though he caught the boat from Southampton. In real life he would have had a Micky Channon accent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Of course it counts. In myriad american films the director seeks out an Englishman to play the bad guy(s). Well give us some examples then.... We're waiting.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Doesn't Die Hard 3 have some English asshole as a baddie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Titanic is a classic example, they had to make Jack Dawson Irish even though he caught the boat from Southampton. In real life he would have had a Micky Channon accent. He wasn't a bad guy though, and his accent didn't sound anything like any Irish person I have ever heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 12 June, 2011 Share Posted 12 June, 2011 Didn't Darth Vader have an English accent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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