'Free' electricity panels

[sandwichsaint]

What's the story with the 'free' electricity panels I'm regularly being offered?

 

Have to say I'm quite tempted from the 'never look a gift horse in the mouth' perspective, though I'm also hearing warning bells of the 'if something seems too good to be true then it probably is' variety.

 

What's the deal with the 25 year tie-ins?

 

Is my roof strong enough? (It is quite a good size and it is south facing).

 

Will these panels really: save me money, make my house warmer, improve my love life?

 

Anybody been down this route or know anybody that has?

[dubai_phil]

Mate got this done.

 

He has enjoyed spending the spring months watching his Electricity meter going backwards.

 

He reckons it is supposed to take 7 years to pay off but at the moment he has seen only credits on his Bill each month

 

No idea on the technicalities I do know the rules on grants changed about 9 months ago so worth checking the very fine print

[pedg]

Basically to try and get people to install solar electric panels the government are offering a special tariff where you get paid for all the electricity you produce. Thus with the panels you get to make money 3 ways:

 

Special Tariff

Saving on electricity bills

Selling excess to the grid.

 

Of these the big money is in the special tariff which basically pays about 12 to 15% of the installation costs per year and this is guaranteed for 25 years. As its hard to get that level of guaranteed return on investments via normal investments people with the money to spare are renting other peoples roofs. The person paying for the installation gets the special tariff money and the home owner gets the free electricity (and possibly the money from selling excess to the grid but I think that usually goes to the person paying for the panels as well).

 

So basically if you have the money then the best idea is to not rent out your roof but to pay for the panels yourself. Not only will it pay for itself in about 8 years but the panels add to the value of your house so its often a lot less than that before you are effectively in profit.

 

Having our 4Kw system installed in about 2 weeks.

Edited 3 June, 2011 by pedg

[Jonnyboy]

Would defo do this but my roof is NE facing. poo.

[Pugwash]

At Southampton latitudes payback on the current feed-in tariffs will be typically 8-9 years at best, for a directly south facing roof. Gets longer the further north you go. Not a DIY job either, as it needs to be installed by a MCS accredited company. Tip - the weakest part of the system is the inverters. Go for Fronius or Sunny Boy, otherwise you'll be looking at new inverters in 8-10 years.

[Crispypie]

isnt there some clause about having to pay monies back if the panels are not producing or is that a bit of scare mongering?

[pedg]

isnt there some clause about having to pay monies back if the panels are not producing or is that a bit of scare mongering?

 

I assume you are referring to the 'rent a roof' schemes? For the pay for it yourself ones you pay for the install, a meter reads how much is produced and its the figure on this that determines how much you get from the government.

[Crispypie]

 

I assume you are referring to the 'rent a roof' schemes? For the pay for it yourself ones you pay for the install, a meter reads how much is produced and its the figure on this that determines how much you get from the government.

 

That makes sense, i suppose it to ensure they get their money back. If you pay yourself its your own money if they are not working.

[jemanson]

Happy to provide anyone who is interested and who lives within 50 miles of Soton with a free Solar Energy Audit that will tell you how much you could earn from a properly designed and installed system. I work for a solar PV company based near Winchester (http://www.sunsmartenergy.co.uk) - we're MCS accredited (which means systems we install qualify for the feed-in tariff, described above as the special tariff), members of the REAL assurance scheme (http://www.realassurance.org.uk) and offer top quality systems at good prices! To request an Audit use the property locator on our website. Sales pitch over, with apologies if this isn't the right place for it.

[suewhistle]

Have you ever installed on a property with a tenant? I currently live abroad (and probably for the next year or so) and am renting out my house, worried that the FITs will be withdrawn and inflation is eating into my savings. I'd want Sharp panels and as Pugwash has pointed out, a decent inverter. In a PO post code and not in the country so the local distribution network is fine and I wouldn't worry about "islanding", S facing roof but only a terrace so about 3kW max I'd imagine.

[Doctoroncall]

IIRC, the special tariff ends this year or will be reduced (there was an article in the DT a few months back). So anyone thinking about it should do it by the end of the year.

[Smirking_Saint]

Have you ever installed on a property with a tenant? I currently live abroad (and probably for the next year or so) and am renting out my house, worried that the FITs will be withdrawn and inflation is eating into my savings. I'd want Sharp panels and as Pugwash has pointed out, a decent inverter. In a PO post code and not in the country so the local distribution network is fine and I wouldn't worry about "islanding", S facing roof but only a terrace so about 3kW max I'd imagine.

 

Ahem, I think you'll find the distribution network is much more then fine thank you very much.

 

Your not allowed to island anyways, there will be a changeover switch installed somewhere between you and the network.

[benjii]

Ahem, I think you'll find the distribution network is much more then fine thank you very much.

 

Your not allowed to island anyways, there will be a changeover switch installed somewhere between you and the network.

 

Don't worry, it was just an attempt by a lady to appear knowledgeable by throwing a few words around.

[suewhistle]

You are, but the whole point of doing it is you have to isolate your system from the network, obviously. That's why it's called islanding..

[angelman]

My brother's company does this. As far as I see it there are 2 ways of doing it:

 

1} You shell out thousands to put the panels up and you feed the grid and get paid for it.

 

2} You get a company to put them up, free to you, they get the feed in tariff and you get free electricity.

 

I think the figures are something like 40p odd for the feed, while it costs about 10p to buy back. However, these tariffs are set to change in the near future. I would say that Germany recently cut their tariffs by 30% odd, and I would not be surprised if it happened here. Basically the higher feed in tariffs are paid for by you and me when we buy electricity off the energy companies, thus adding £££s to our bills. So all this renewable generated power is costing the average Joe a lot so those that have done it can profit. I am not so sure that it will last that long at current rates.

[Whitey Grandad]

More info here:

 

http://www.eastleigh.gov.uk/housing/home-energy-saving/renewable-energy.aspx

 

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Sell-your-own-energy/Feed-in-Tariff-scheme#tarifflevels

 

So, if I understand it correctly, for Photovoltaic panels you are paid for each unit (kWh) that you generate whether you use it yourself or export it to the grid. This is the FIT rate, currently 43.3p/unit. If you don't use the electricity, for example when you are on holiday, you export it and get paid an extra 3p/unit. You also save because you aren't buying so much electricity. These rates are guaranteed for 25 years and will rise in line with RPI. You have to pay for the installation yourself and there are no other grants involved. The efficiency of the panels will decrease over the 25 years but if you buy good ones this will not drop below 80% of new. You need to clean them occasionally. The inverters will probably not last 25 years but you can buy insurance (warranty) to cover this period. The FIT rates will ber reviewed at the end of this year. These tariffs will be reduced from 31st March next year.

 

Is this all correct?

Edited 13 June, 2011 by Whitey Grandad

[Smirking_Saint]

You are, but the whole point of doing it is you have to isolate your system from the network, obviously. That's why it's called islanding..

 

Sorry, you are right, my bad, I meant that you have to be isolated so as not to back generate onto the LV system and so run the risk of energising isolated transformers from an LV supply.

 

As for the Pompey network, I'd imagine you would rather be constantly islanded from it.

[jemanson]

More info here:

 

http://www.eastleigh.gov.uk/housing/home-energy-saving/renewable-energy.aspx

 

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Sell-your-own-energy/Feed-in-Tariff-scheme#tarifflevels

 

So, if I understand it correctly, for Photovoltaic panels you are paid for each unit (kWh) that you generate whether you use it yourself or export it to the grid. This is the FIT rate, currently 43.3p/unit. If you don't use the electricity, for example when you are on holiday, you export it and get paid an extra 3p/unit. You also save because you aren't buying so much electricity. These rates are guaranteed for 25 years and will rise in line with RPI. You have to pay for the installation yourself and there are no other grants involved. The efficiency of the panels will decrease over the 25 years but if you buy good ones this will not drop below 80% of new. You need to clean them occasionally. The inverters will probably not last 25 years but you can buy insurance (warranty) to cover this period. The FIT rates will ber reviewed at the end of this year. These tariffs will be reduced from 31st March next year.

 

Is this all correct?

 

100% correct.

 

Feed-in-tariff rates for very large installations (more than 50 kW, as seen on 'solar farms') will reduce from August and there's speculation that the feed-in-tariff rates will reduce for smaller installations from March next year (with anyone who has already installed unaffected), but nothing has yet been confirmed.

 

There are some good online calculators (see https://www.solarjuice.com/ and http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Cashback-Calculator) if you want to see what income and savings you can expect to achieve. If you're not sure what size system will fit on your roof, typical domestic installations are 1.5 - 3.5 kWp (currently costing around £6K to £12K).

[jemanson]

Have you ever installed on a property with a tenant? I currently live abroad (and probably for the next year or so) and am renting out my house, worried that the FITs will be withdrawn and inflation is eating into my savings. I'd want Sharp panels and as Pugwash has pointed out, a decent inverter. In a PO post code and not in the country so the local distribution network is fine and I wouldn't worry about "islanding", S facing roof but only a terrace so about 3kW max I'd imagine.

 

Not yet, but would do a good deal if you want to be the first!

 

Your tenants would need to be around for a quick survey of your property, put up with a couple of days of installation and supply meter readings to ensure you received feed-in-tariff payments, but would benefit from cheaper bills (assuming they pay them). You would receive the feed-in-tariff payment and the export payment.

[Whitey Grandad]

Thanks Jenmason. My roof faces south-east so in the summer we get a lot of sun on it from 04:30. Would it be better for me to feed the electricity back to the grid, or to heat my hot water with the immersion heater thereby saving gas? The net cost to me would be 3p per unit seeing as I would get the 43.3p/unit anyway, but II would be saving the cost of the gas.

[rockhill]

I was at a Dimplex presentation about PV (photovoltaic) a few weeks ago, and on a bright but not too sunny day their 3.8 KW PV system (as big as you can fit), with 10 x 400 watt panels, each panel just a bit smaller than a door, was producing 1.8KW of useable electricity.

So on a bright sunny day you might get about 2KW of free electricity out of your 3.8 KW system.

You would also get 43pence per unit (feed in tariff) and 50 % of the total certified system value at 3p per unit. The local electricity company won’t fit an extra meter to check how much electricity you export they just assume you export half the total electricity your system can produce.

 

Have you ever checked how much electricity you use in your house, not when you have everything on but when you have turned everything off just before you go out?

I have a smart meter and was a bit surprised to find I use 0.5 KW with everything off, (i.e. just fridge freezer and stand by items on) so with luck you will have about 1.5KW to export or use from a PV system.

You will always use the PV produced electricity first as this is at a higher voltage than the supply voltage.

 

As a safety feature if the supply voltage fails the PV system shuts down, so you can’t back feed the substation.

 

Yes that means it doesn’t work if there’s a power cut!

[jemanson]

Thanks Jenmason. My roof faces south-east so in the summer we get a lot of sun on it from 04:30. Would it be better for me to feed the electricity back to the grid, or to heat my hot water with the immersion heater thereby saving gas? The net cost to me would be 3p per unit seeing as I would get the 43.3p/unit anyway, but II would be saving the cost of the gas.

 

It's always best to use as much of the electricity you generate as you can - you get paid for generating it at 43.3p per unit and might save 15p per unit on electricity from the grid.

Also, in almost all cases there's no import/export meter installed and the payments you receive for exporting electricity to the grid are based on an estimated amount (typically 50% of what you generate, so £30 for a system generating 2000 units per year). So, you get paid the same for 'exported' electricity whether you actually export 0% or 100% of what you generate.

 

We've had brief discussions about using PV to heat water through immersion heaters and I'll look into it a bit more. In theory it's a good idea if you can get close to matching production from your PV system with the requirements of the immersion heater (which may be possible with larger systems in summer months), but generally (as you probably know) it's cheaper and better in carbon emission terms to use gas and a condensing boiler to heat water than an immersion heater fed by grid electricity. The economics may change too for people off the gas network using other fuels to heat water.

 

Will do some research.