National Debt: Maybe the Tories are wrong afterall

[trousers]

A very well crafted article. Not seen the 'counter cuts' argument put so eloquently before...

 

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23955926-debt-isnt-always-bad-we-may-even-learn-to-love-it.do

 

"A favourite gripe of my father's generation back in the Fifties was that their taxes were being used to pay for the Napoleonic wars.

 

In truth, it was not a very serious gripe, and certainly not the biggest thing to worry about in those times, but it has a certain resonance.

 

Politicians today talk about the burden of public debt being passed on to our children and grandchildren. In truth, every generation of taxpayers has had to pay the bills of its predecessors.

 

Even today, though Napoleon has been taken care of, the Kaiser hasn't. Today's taxpayers may neither know nor care but a small slice of what they hand over to Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs every year goes to pay the interest on a couple of billion pounds of debt run up to pay for the First World War and still outstanding. Have a look some time at the Government securities section on a stock market prices page and locate War Loan. Launched in 1916 it is still going strong. And it is you who is paying the interest."

[dronskisaint]

An interesting analysis and lays some ghosts to rest regarding debt levels 'incurred' by the last administration. That it comes from a right wing perspective albeit punching pretty softly is also maybe a sign that they are realising that you can't hide in rhetoric for ever.

[1976_Child]

Only when people understand what money is, can they begin to understand the ramifications of debt.

 

Debt=money=debt=money. But what ties money to resources? Nadda. And, no I am not on about the gold standard.

[teamsaint]

Only when people understand what money is, can they begin to understand the ramifications of debt.

 

Debt=money=debt=money. But what ties money to resources? Nadda. And, no I am not on about the gold standard.

 

and when we have been convinced that its worth getting into personal debt to buy stuff like season tickets, we know that the people at the top have really got us where they want us.

 

income tax...tithes in another era.

 

One can only hope that one day the criminals in the western worlds central banks will get their just deserts.

Perhaps the long term recession they caused , and that we are suffering, will cause us all to wake up......

 

One of the biggest richest economies in the world, and good , reasonable priced housing, pensions, and quality healthcare are all things we can only dream of, or remember fondly from the past.

 

And don't get me started on the artificial food shortages and price rises , and their effect on the worlds poor...

[1976_Child]

And don't get me started on the artificial food shortages and price rises , and their effect on the worlds poor...

 

It's their fault for not working hard enough. The poor are poor because they haven't opened their markets to global corporations which bring wealth, health and prosperity thanks to the miracle of neo-classical economics.

 

If the poor were serious about living they would get off their lazy butts and contribute to corporate profits. Maybe then they would be able to afford to buy all the food they ever needed.

[dune]

[video=youtube;kkQmeZY__-M]

[Jonnyboy]

Read the article for a change Dune:

 

In fact, the whole saga shows up our politicians at their worst. Listen to Chancellor George Osborne and you could easily believe government debt was invented by Gordon Brown. In fact, he made a pretty big reduction in the debt levels he inherited from his Conservative predecessor John Major - fixing the roof while the sun was shining, to coin a phrase - until he was knocked hopelessly off course by the financial crisis and the need to bail out banks.

There are many things to criticise Brown over but debt management before the crisis is not really one of them. It does rather underline the pettiness behind the refusal of Osborne and David Cameron to put Brown forward as a potential head of the International Monetary Fund. But that's another story.

[badgerx16]

"but a government which defines itself by cuts stands a very good chance of making things worse"

[dronskisaint]

Read the article for a change Dune:

 

In fact, the whole saga shows up our politicians at their worst. Listen to Chancellor George Osborne and you could easily believe government debt was invented by Gordon Brown. In fact, he made a pretty big reduction in the debt levels he inherited from his Conservative predecessor John Major - fixing the roof while the sun was shining, to coin a phrase - until he was knocked hopelessly off course by the financial crisis and the need to bail out banks.

There are many things to criticise Brown over but debt management before the crisis is not really one of them. It does rather underline the pettiness behind the refusal of Osborne and David Cameron to put Brown forward as a potential head of the International Monetary Fund. But that's another story.

 

At the risk of being accused of using Dune as a whipping boy - he doesn't do reasoned argument. Bland platitudes that don't shake his ill-considered dogma as demonstrated above are what you must expect....cue some Farage drivel wrapped up in an anti-socialist slogan?

[shurlock]

To be clear, debt and the deficit aren't the same thing.

 

Labour had a small structural deficit; the real damage to the public finaces was done by the collapse in tax revenues. Labour's major failure was in confusing a banking miracle for mirage and assuming revenues from the City (as well as other bubble-driven activities) would indefinitely fill Treasury coffers. The Conservatives made exactly the same mistake, declaring that they would also share the proceeds of growth and match Labour's spending plans.

[dronskisaint]

To be clear, debt and the deficit aren't the same thing.

 

Labour had a small structural deficit; the real damage to the public finaces was done by the collapse in tax revenues. Labour's major failure was in confusing a banking miracle for mirage and assuming revenues from the City (as well as other bubble-driven activities) would indefinitely fill Treasury coffers. The Conservatives made exactly the same mistake, declaring that they would also share the proceeds of growth and match Labour's spending plans.

 

Hmm - it's often levelled at the last administration that they levied 'stealth' taxes and certainly the tax burden was moved around during this period in a less than transparent manner.

 

Look a little further back though to the Thatcher/Major years and you'll see that despite the sell-off of the State owned nett contributors such as BT, Water, Oil, Electricity and Gas suppliers (NB I have left out the loss makers such as BR etc to retain the balance) this money was not used to reduce the overall government deficit to make the debt more sustainable. It was used to fund tax cuts, largely to business, in the ideological belief that by doing so that the economy would be stimulated and create wealth from the top down...uh huh! This might have been a viable proposition had the companies taken the profits and used them for expansion of real jobs, real money and future-kindly state of the art technology. Instead we saw the unsustainable swell of the FTSE value and the service based financial industry that got in to so much trouble close on three years ago.

 

Brown missed the opportunity to regulate the industry along with most of the world's financial leaders but the root cause..blame if you like, has to be laid at the door of the previous administration for creating a system that was, from the outset, exploited by financiers who know a quick buck when it's presented to them on a plate. Somewhere in this thread there is a wonderful example of the way the financial system is built on very little other than minimal money and maximum credit...think it relates to transactions on a street in Ireland but if anyone can find it please repost it?

[View From The Top]

At the risk of being accused of using Dune as a whipping boy - he doesn't do reasoned argument. Bland platitudes that don't shake his ill-considered dogma as demonstrated above are what you must expect....cue some Farage drivel wrapped up in an anti-socialist slogan?

 

Don't forget a youtube video! Stanley loves those.