Looks like Chamberlain's off then

[saintjay77]

I think what you've done there is highlight what "stalling" actually is. Torres is already a proven top level striker, at international and club level. He's proved that over a number of seasons. What he is doing now is having a lull in performances; he's not getting any better, in fact he's struggling to find his previous form at virtually the same level of football.

 

What Bale and Walcott had to do when moving clubs was completely different. They had to massively improve their games so that they were capable of playing consistently for one of the best sides in the country. As I've previously stated a few times, a lot of the time that just doesn't happen straight away, it takes some time for young players to keep developing so that they can become that player.

 

Just because after a player signs for a large club and he doesn't immediately start every single game, it doesn't mean he's stalled. At 16, 17, even 18 or 19, he is still very much learning the game and improving every day from working with top coaches and top international players.

 

The difference is of course, Torres is a world class player already so Chelsea will keep giving him game time until he finds his form or they decide to sell him. They wont bung him in the reserves for a season or 2 while he progresses.

 

Theo, Bale and Chambo are/were at the other end of the scale, they have the potential to be world class but have allot of learning to do before they get there. For financial reasons they will take the step up as soon as it is offered and will happily sit in the reserves until they are ready to break into the 1st team or fall away when they dont make it. Pennant is another good example, he is actually a really good player but just not quite good enough for Arsenal's 1st team. He has spent years struggling to fit in somewhere and get the best football out of his ability. He is one I would say that went to Arsenal and stalled which probably damaged his over all carreer.

 

No-one knows if the decission they make is the right one until later. Financially all of the above have made the right moves as they probably dont want for anything. For footballing reasons I think its fair to say that Theo, Bale and Pennant could of benifitted from more 1st team football earlier on but it is pretty impossible to gauge.

 

Money is the main focus to most people and it will always come before footballing reasons IMO.

[gaz]

Then why do so many top players either have a history of playing in their teenage years for their club or being loaned out for professional game experience? If they are loaned out they aren't in training with these "top players" or "top coaches". Playing against other professionals in the 2nd tier is much better than training at a big club and never getting game time in a competitive match. What makes you think what Wenger does in training is so much better than what Adkins does? The only difference is the quality of his teammates, which of course can be a factor to improve a young play, but I think that is far outweighed by the positives of playing regularly. Every manager who loans out youth players agrees.

 

Indeed, just ask Jack Cork if he is a better player for coming on loan here or to Burnley, than if he's stayed in the Reserves at Chelsea. Everyone forgets that David Beckham played for Preston North End on loan because Fergie thought he needed first team experience that he wouldn't get at Old Trafford for a year.

[JackanorySFC]

Then why do so many top players either have a history of playing in their teenage years for their club or being loaned out for professional game experience? If they are loaned out they aren't in training with these "top players" or "top coaches". Playing against other professionals in the 2nd tier is much better than training at a big club and never getting game time in a competitive match. What makes you think what Wenger does in training is so much better than what Adkins does? The only difference is the quality of his teammates, which of course can be a factor to improve a young play, but I think that is far outweighed by the positives of playing regularly. Every manager who loans out youth players agrees.

 

Are you for real?????

 

Because he has managed a side that consistantly prove people wrong my qualifying for the champions league by playing the most eye catching football in the country and 2nd only to Barcelone in Europe. Because he has revolutionized the way football is coached and played in this country. Because he changed players attitudes to how to manage their careers. Because he has developed players like Fabregas, Wilshire, Nasri, Chichy, Gibbs, Song, Theo, Ramsey, RVP, Henry, Viera etc etc etc from "prospects" to genuinely world class players.

 

I'm genuinely shocked by you saying that, and with all the drival that I see from saints (rather than "football" fans) on here, takes quite some doing!

[Matthew Le God]

Because he has managed a side that consistantly prove people wrong my qualifying for the champions league by playing the most eye catching football in the country and 2nd only to Barcelone in Europe. Because he has revolutionized the way football is coached and played in this country. Because he changed players attitudes to how to manage their careers. Because he has developed players like Fabregas, Wilshire, Nasri, Chichy, Gibbs, Song, Theo, Ramsey, RVP, Henry, Viera etc etc etc from "prospects" to genuinely world class players.

 

I'm genuinely shocked by you saying that, and with all the drival that I see from saints (rather than "football" fans) on here, takes quite some doing!

 

You have taken one quote out of context of a whole paragraph. Wenger in any case delegates training out to his coaches and takes relatively little part in it himself.

 

Why do you think he is also loaning out numerous young Arsenal players to the lower leagues? They won't have him, Arsenal coaches or Arsenal first team players helping them. However Wenger still thinks it is more worthwhile than keeping them at the club.

Edited 8 August, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[gaz]

And Arsenal have assembled a side of great players, but they haven't won anything for 6 years.

[The Kraken]

The difference is of course, Torres is a world class player already so Chelsea will keep giving him game time until he finds his form or they decide to sell him. They wont bung him in the reserves for a season or 2 while he progresses.

 

Theo, Bale and Chambo are/were at the other end of the scale, they have the potential to be world class but have allot of learning to do before they get there. For financial reasons they will take the step up as soon as it is offered and will happily sit in the reserves until they are ready to break into the 1st team or fall away when they dont make it. Pennant is another good example, he is actually a really good player but just not quite good enough for Arsenal's 1st team. He has spent years struggling to fit in somewhere and get the best football out of his ability. He is one I would say that went to Arsenal and stalled which probably damaged his over all carreer.

 

No-one knows if the decission they make is the right one until later. Financially all of the above have made the right moves as they probably dont want for anything. For footballing reasons I think its fair to say that Theo, Bale and Pennant could of benifitted from more 1st team football earlier on but it is pretty impossible to gauge.

 

Money is the main focus to most people and it will always come before footballing reasons IMO.

 

I think we agree on that point! I just don't agree with the notion that young players can only learn from playing first team games. Of course it helps, but at that age in particular they also need lots of coaching, and a more gentle introduction to first team games so they're not playing week in week out. That can (and previously has) led to player burn-out, and it's why many top managers are so sensitive and aware of the need not to rush young players.

 

You say it's fair to say that Theo and Bale could have benefitted from more first team football. I assume you mean with us. Yes, they could well have played more games with us (although lets be clear here, it's not as if they didn't get a look in at Arsenal and Spurs, they still played a fair amount of games for them). But you have to offset that with the fact they are making a massive step-up in levels from Championship to top-level premier League. You also have to offset that with how much Walcott learned about playing right-wing while training alongside Thierry Henry compared to staying with us and instead learning from the likes of Jhon Viafara. That's the intangible things that you don't see but which very much make a difference to the development and improvement of a young player.

[Matthew Le God]

From the Echo...

 

gordonsimpson Gordon Simpson

Just to confuse everyone - been told by a source that Alex Chamberlain is "definitely not" having a medical at Arsenal today. #saintsfc

[The9]

I can't disagree that both Bale and Theo's careers took steps backwards for 18 months or so when they joined their new clubs before they got used to doing things the new way, and I'm not convinced Walcott is anywhere near the level he was expected to be, whether that was due to his early move or not.

 

I think AOC is about the level of a Routledge or Dyer rather than a Pennant, so it will be interesting to see what happens to him IF he is sold.

[S-Clarke]

I can't disagree that both Bale and Theo's careers took steps backwards for 18 months or so when they joined their new clubs before they got used to doing things the new way, and I'm not convinced Walcott is anywhere near the level he was expected to be, whether that was due to his early move or not.

 

I think AOC is about the level of a Routledge or Dyer rather than a Pennant, so it will be interesting to see what happens to him IF he is sold.

 

I think he's on another planet to Routledge tbh, potentially one of the best wide players in Europe - that's why arsenal want him. He's got excellent technique and skill on par with alot of top players in Europe.

 

I hope he gets his chance at Arsenal because I think he'll walk into the premiership without any issue.

[SuperSAINT]

I think he's on another planet to Routledge tbh, potentially one of the best wide players in Europe - that's why arsenal want him. He's got excellent technique and skill on par with alot of top players in Europe.

 

…. And he still says he’s a central midfielder. Really am quite intrigued to see what kind of MC he could be, considering some of his attributes.

 

Fantastic player though – In 5 years time, he’ll probably be England’s best midfielder.

[trousers]

@JWTelegraph: Total fee for Oxlade-Chamberlain - who is at Arsenal's training HQ today - is £12m.big price for player with only Lge1 experience

[trousers]

@JWTelegraph: Saints eventually received £7m for Gareth Bale, £8m for Walcott..Oxlade-Chamberlain could be £12m within a yr #saintsfc #arsenal

[trousers]

@JWTelegraph: Surprising willingness of Wenger to spend up to £12m on young winger, but not, as yet, £15m+ on needed defender

[S-Clarke]

@JWTelegraph: Total fee for Oxlade-Chamberlain - who is at Arsenal's training HQ today - is £12m.big price for player with only Lge1 experience

 

It's a tremendous fee really. 7m up front cash will help us immediately as well, without having to wait for years in order to reinvest.

 

We already had significant money to spend on the team, so this little lump sum is going to create a very exciting august for us. We're targeting the best championship players, weather that comes off or not..who knows.

[Thedelldays]

It's a tremendous fee really. 7m up front cash will help us immediately as well, without having to wait for years in order to reinvest.

 

We already had significant money to spend on the team, so this little lump sum is going to create a very exciting august for us. We're targeting the best championship players, weather that comes off or not..who knows.

 

agree.....you just know NC will allow nearly all of that money to be used now and in january by nigel..to get in a good player or two that will get straight into the team....

 

CB and Striker please nige....cheers

 

and £12m for a player who has played 30-odd division 3 games is mental

[S-Clarke]

agree.....you just know NC will allow nearly all of that money to be used now and in january by nigel..to get in a good player or two that will get straight into the team....

 

CB and Striker please nige....cheers

 

and £12m for a player who has played 30-odd division 3 games is mental

 

It is alot of money, but he's an awesome talent. On par with some of the best young players in world football at the moment, maybe even better for his age.

 

He'll get better and I hope he gets the games, it'll be frustrating...but I think we all have a little pride when we see the likes of Bale and Theo strutting their stuff at the San Siro etc...which i'm sure Alex will be in time.

[Barry the Badger]

Then why do so many top players either have a history of playing in their teenage years for their club or being loaned out for professional game experience? .

 

Ok lets put this theory to the test. I will pick 5 'top' players randomly (I promise) off the top of my head.

 

Lampard

Gerrard

Kaka

C.Ronaldo

Messi

 

Right, now you are arguing that a lack of regular first team action will hinder Chamberlain, as it supposedly did with Walcott and Bale. So taking Walcott as an example, he played 16 games for Arsenal in his first season so that's obviously too little in your opinion.

 

So what I will do is find the first season that the above players played at least 20 games, and we shall call this 'regular football'.

 

Lampard - Born 78 - First season of regular football 97/98 - Age 19

Gerrard - 80 - 99/00 - 19

Kaka - 82 - 2001 - 19

C.Ronaldo - 85 - 02/03 - 17

Messi - 87 - 06/07 - 19

 

So four out of the five top players I chose at random did not play at least 20 games in a season until they were 19. I have just looked these figures up quickly so hope they are correct. Assuming they are will you accept that many top players do not in fact play regular football until their late teens and that 'regular match experience' or whatever you want to call it does not have quite the influence you say it does?

 

And YES (just to cover off the inevitable) I know in the quote I've used you say 'teenage years' and all those players played regularly by the end of their teenage years, but the discussion we're having is that Chamberlain will/wont be handicapped by not playing regular football at 17/18.

Edited 8 August, 2011 by Barry the Badger

[Matthew Le God]

Ok lets put this theory to the test. I will pick 5 'top' players randomly (I promise) off the top of my head.

 

Lampard

Gerrard

Kaka

C.Ronaldo

Messi

 

Right, now you are arguing that a lack of regular first team action will hinder Chamberlain, as it supposedly did with Walcott and Bale. So taking Walcott as an example, he played 16 games for Arsenal in his first season so that's obviously too little in your opinion.

 

So what I will do is find the first season that the above players played at least 20 games, and we shall call this 'regular football'.

 

Lampard - Born 78 - First season of regular football 97/98 - Age 19

Gerrard - 80 - 99/00 - 19

Kaka - 82 - 2001 - 19

C.Ronaldo - 85 - 02/03 - 17

Messi - 87 - 06/07 - 19

 

So four out of the five top players I chose at random did not play at least 20 games in a season until they were 19. I have just looked these figures up quickly so hope they are correct. Assuming they are will you accept that many top players do not in fact play regular football until their late teens and that 'regular match experience' or whatever you want to call it does not have quite the influence you say it does?

 

You could also pick another five, six, seven (countless number) of top players that did. Lets say...

 

Pele

Maradona

Cruyff

Rooney

Giggs

Beckham

 

To start with...

Edited 8 August, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[shurlock]

It is alot of money, but he's an awesome talent. On par with some of the best young players in world football at the moment, maybe even better for his age.

 

He'll get better and I hope he gets the games, it'll be frustrating...but I think we all have a little pride when we see the likes of Bale and Theo strutting their stuff at the San Siro etc...which i'm sure Alex will be in time.

 

Can't remember which game it was - think it was Dagenham away, but their young, quick LB totally sussed out AOC - made him look very very average. It was that day I decided that while he's got potential, he's still got a long way to go -and nothing's certain in this game

[The Kraken]

You could also pick another five, six, seven (countless number) of top players that did. Lets say...

 

Pele

Maradona

Cruyff

Rooney

Giggs

Beckham

 

To start with...

 

This is a ridiculous argument anyway. The accusation is that Walcott's progress was "stalled" because he went to Arsenal too early, and therefore missed out on playing in enough competitive first team matches. Which is actually nonsense, given here's the number of appearances he actually made:

 

2005/06 (Saints): 23

2006/07 (Arsenal): 32

2007/08: 39

2008/09: 35

2009/10: 30

2010/11: 38

[shurlock]

This is a ridiculous argument anyway. The accusation is that Walcott's progress was "stalled" because he went to Arsenal too early, and therefore missed out on playing in enough competitive first team matches. Which is actually nonsense, given here's the number of appearances he actually made:

 

2005/06 (Saints): 23

2006/07 (Arsenal): 32

2007/08: 39

2008/09: 35

2009/10: 30

2010/11: 38

 

Presumably, lots of them are as sub.

[The Kraken]

Presumably, lots of them are as sub.

 

I'm sure they are, yes. Again, all part of the learning process playing for a side at the top end of the Premier League and in the Champions League.

[trousers]

@jordansibley: Chamberlain switch to Arsenal now confirmed. See www.saintsfc.co.uk for full story #saintsfc #afc

[Barry the Badger]

You could also pick another five, six, seven (countless number) of top players that did. Lets say...

 

Pele

Maradona

Cruyff

Rooney

Giggs

Beckham

 

To start with...

 

God you're infuriating to argue with :-) I can't believe that Saintwebs number one pedant would write Beckham without checking though ;-) He didn't play 'regularly' until the 95-96 season, by which point he was 20.

 

But back to the point. I KNOW there are lots of top players who DO play regular football when they are 16,17,18. What I'm arguing is that it's nowhere near as important as you are making out.

 

To illustrate this I picked 5 players at random. I was prepared to be wrong and actually thought Messi and Kaka would have both been playing regularly at 17, but they weren't. Playing regularly for the first team at 17 or 18 is not as important as you make out, although each player is different. I don't believe being at Arsenal will harm Chamberlain one bit.

 

Now come on, for my sanity, accept that you may have overestimated the importance of 'regular' football at these young ages.

[St Chalet]

Looks like he was off in the end.

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?31791-Chamberlain-signs-for-Arsenal