Lessons Learnt ???

[derry]

the obsession with the board room is ridiculous, the amount of times Lowe is mentioned in even a post match football thread!

 

There is nothing at all to say that RL is involved in team selection.

There is nothing to say that JP has been prevented from playing anyone, for example KD was apparantly up for sale, one of the higher earners, we signed a new keepers -played everygame.

 

Lowe was slagged off for signing Schneiderlin and Holmes, either that was unfair as untrue or Lowe knows more about football than the numerous posters on here who slagged Holmes off! (and there were loads of OTT posts)

 

Slag him off over shutting of corners (actually that may have been a crouch one) or replacing NP, or appointing JP, his lack of charm, etc but don't get obsessed with your bizarre conspiracy theories!

 

Davis has been told he can leave if an offer comes in for him, despite the fact he wants to stay.

[Chez]

Now we got the playground temper-tantrums out of the way, I'd like to know if any adults also feel that last night could represent some sort of cross-roads in how the season will unfold.

 

 

the trouble is Euell, Killer and Thomas are not available to Jan so its hard to judge. Certainly a squad with those three and Skacel/John will offer more resistance than one without. The likes of Wotton, Ryan Smith, Jake Thompson, Llyod James, Thomas Pakhart and David McGoldrick have shown that they are all short of the required quality needed. Others like Mills, Lancashire, Gillett, Schneiderlin and Lallana can quite clearly cut it. I'd of thought that was enough youth in the side to keep everyone happy and perhaps win a few games!

[NickG]

and he still plays

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Alp Rudi is a pro footballer who wants to earn as much as he can from his few years left in football. To do so he has to leave, therefore his incentive is to play well and shine so to make other clubs come in for him. That is enough, he has been given his chance and it seems he did ok but however you treat him he will want to go.

 

Any quotes actually from Rudi or just hearsay?????

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Sounds points from Alpine here.

 

The questions answers are likely to be:

 

Lowe will continue to interfer... based on a plethora of historical examples. So he will not permit him to play our (fans) best team (MEN) - perhaps JPs team will be played until it fails but then it will back to Lowe's crap again. Answer is until Lowe has nothing to do with this Club again he will always interfer.

 

JP - on current evidence - lacks knowledge of the CCC. He lacks knowledge of his team players. He is restricted from above. He lacks the ability to take decisions in a match - relying completely on Wotte. So, he will continue to set up for games badly due to lack of knowledge and continue to lose the confidence of fans and players alike as he is clueless once a game begins... he freezes. I have watched him fo 3 games very closely. He relies entirely on a frustrated Wotte to get him to make a decision. Answer: JP can't do it but Wotte MIGHT be able to.

 

All in all I think Lowe will interfer and JP ... well he's another Simon Clifford. He's a fraud who's duped SCW and Lowe.

 

Spot on mate.

[sadoldgit]

Surely the question should be why wouldn't Lowe let JP field his best team?

 

As far as I know there is not one shred of evidence to support the notion that Lowe interferes with the team selection but that doesn't stop Alpine dropping it into his posts whenever he can. I seem to remember many posts along the line that a former manager was deliberatley sabataging our promotion attempt too! Hmmmm.

 

What is evident is that the club are trying to build a team for the future and in doing so have been trying to keep the younger players together as much as possible so that in two or three years time they should have progressed to the point that they can mount a promotion push (Wilde has said that there is a 3 year plan to get promotion).

 

Perhaps they have held off using the older players a little too long, but it is also very clear that many players have not been picked because they simply have not been fit. Not Lowe's doing at all.

 

As we know, Lowe has a large backlog of managers. Has any one of them ever stated that Lowe tried to pick the team? We know that he had a hand in signing some players, and which club Chairman doesn't, but inconjunction with his staff rather tha unilaterally.

 

JP might be working to a plan laid down by his bosses, but how many managers are not?

 

Until we have irrefutable profe that Lowe does meddle with the team selections, here's an idea, let's all work on the premise that JP picks the team, sorts out the tactics and is personally responsible for any successes or failures that his team have, ok?

[NickG]

If you break down who has been left out, take away injured players, there is not this experienced first 11 being kept in the shadows at all.

 

One of the changes last night, which is being shown as the game when JP gave up on youth -was replacing Wooton with Gillett -12 years his junior.

 

The back 4 still had two 19 year olds.

 

The midfield 5 were 18,22,22,23 and 20.

[sandwichsaint]

So what we're really saying on the bi-polar message board of choice is that nothing's really changed?

 

Despite clearing a lot of Viaffara/Ostlund/Idiakez-style deadwood and all of last year's loans we seem to have retained the nucleus of a reasonable CCC side.

 

My too-good-to-go-down X1:

 

Davis

 

Cork Perry WT Rudi

 

Surman Euell Schneid Holmes

 

Llallana

 

John

 

Subs: Bart, Gilett, Wotton, BWP, DMG

 

You would have to be particularly unlucky (or careless) to get relegated with that lot, or have a particularly interfering chairman or incompetent manager wouldn't you?

 

What might be holding us back is that four of that starting X1 are injured? Or that we can't afford to play several of them? Or that three or four of them could go in the Jan window (please not KD!)?

 

In the big scheme of things I'm not sure that last night's (welcome) point really counts for much?

[NickG]

not bad side, wide players would expect to see some rotation with likes of Gasmi, Smith, Mills, Gobbern, James, Thomson and BWP depending on form

[Long Shot]

the obsession with the board room is ridiculous, the amount of times Lowe is mentioned in even a post match football thread!

 

There is nothing at all to say that RL is involved in team selection.

There is nothing to say that JP has been prevented from playing anyone, for example KD was apparantly up for sale, one of the higher earners, we signed a new keepers -played everygame.

 

Lowe was slagged off for signing Schneiderlin and Holmes, either that was unfair as untrue or Lowe knows more about football than the numerous posters on here who slagged Holmes off! (and there were loads of OTT posts)

 

Slag him off over shutting of corners (actually that may have been a crouch one) or replacing NP, or appointing JP, his lack of charm, etc but don't get obsessed with your bizarre conspiracy theories!

 

A totally "ignorant of the facts post" from Rupert's love child.

[um pahars]

If you break down who has been left out, take away injured players, there is not this experienced first 11 being kept in the shadows at all.

 

But I haven't seen anyone claim there is an experienced first 11 being kept in the shadows, so why are you being so melodramatic?

 

What people have been looking for is a balance of youth and experience and sadly it has taken some batterings and a poor start to the season for this to register with the current regime.

 

A number of more experienced players have been left out when IMHO they are better than the youngsters who took their places (John at the start of the season, Cork every now and then, Skacel from the off etc etc etc).

 

What is also worrying about this failure to accept you need a mix in this division, is that throughout the transfer window we concentrated on youth at the expense of experience.

 

The problem is not only failing to play the experienced players we have, but also a failure to augment them with any new faces in August and a failure of getting them to play together during the close season.

 

We are now playing catch up (that's if he doesn't tinker with the line up again).

[NickG]

A totally "ignorant of the facts post" from Rupert's love child.

 

disagree with points made if you like? or just result to childish insults.

 

Open to other opinions or facts that show above is wrong. I have posted numerous moans about lowe, and as pointed out many times drank with Lee Hoos to celebrate his departure. Just because I don't go along with child like paranoia I am Lowe's love child! Go back to my post and discuss it like an adult if you are up to it

[Wes Tender]

What is evident is that the club are trying to build a team for the future and in doing so have been trying to keep the younger players together as much as possible so that in two or three years time they should have progressed to the point that they can mount a promotion push (Wilde has said that there is a 3 year plan to get promotion).

 

A three year plan looks laudable on paper and gives the impression of long term strategy. But most on here can spot the fatal flaws in this long term plan a mile away.

 

There are two of them. Firstly the part where you say that they are trying to keep the younger players together as much as possible. That's just not going to happen, is it? As soon as any youngster shines, he will be off to pastures greener and there's not a lot we can do about it. On the contrary, the club would actually encourage their sale, as they are desperate for the money to keep afloat.

 

Secondly, the policy relies on stability to succeed. Instability caused relegation due to the high turnover of managers. Managerial stability for three years just isn't going to happen with Lowe, is it? His record over the past decade speaks volumes and we will probably have another three managers by the end of the three years, so no hope of building, even if we kept the best youngsters who would assist our upward progress.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

Alp Rudi is a pro footballer who wants to earn as much as he can from his few years left in football. To do so he has to leave, therefore his incentive is to play well and shine so to make other clubs come in for him. That is enough, he has been given his chance and it seems he did ok but however you treat him he will want to go.

 

Yes that's right. So if Lowe wanted to get rid of Rudi then the best way was to play him and give him the opportunity to show what he can do.

 

So since you have dismissed lack of motivation on Rudi's part, why wasn't he playing? Injury? Lack of fitness? His lack of fitness cannot be because he isn't motivated, because you've already dismissed that. Could it be he is unfit because of him being sidelined and deliberately ignored in order to force him to accept any offer? Possibly.

 

If we needed Rudi off the payroll you aren't going to do it by letting him become unfit and leaving him out of the side.

 

I'm afraid all the circumstances lead one to the inevitable conclusion that Lowe's approach was utterly counter-productive. It got to the point before Sheff U that he just had to change his approach, and get something out of Skacel rather than pay him for nothing, while at the same time putting him in the window for January.

[derry]

Yes that's right. So if Lowe wanted to get rid of Rudi then the best way was to play him and give him the opportunity to show what he can do.

 

So since you have dismissed lack of motivation on Rudi's part, why wasn't he playing? Injury? Lack of fitness? His lack of fitness cannot be because he isn't motivated, because you've already dismissed that. Could it be he is unfit because of him being sidelined and deliberately ignored in order to force him to accept any offer? Possibly.

 

If we needed Rudi off the payroll you aren't going to do it by letting him become unfit and leaving him out of the side.

 

I'm afraid all the circumstances lead one to the inevitable conclusion that Lowe's approach was utterly counter-productive. It got to the point before Sheff U that he just had to change his approach, and get something out of Skacel rather than pay him for nothing, while at the same time putting him in the window for January.

 

 

A pretty good synopsis, drawing on logic, together with what some on here know and the sources they came from, this is just about the situation.

[Window Cleaner]

A pretty good synopsis, drawing on logic, together with what some on here know and the sources they came from, this is just about the situation.

 

What about the Faustian pact synopsis.

He agrees to play now,where the coach wants him to ,to his full ability and for less money,we give him a free in January.

[derry]

What about the Faustian pact synopsis.

He agrees to play now,where the coach wants him to ,to his full ability and for less money,we give him a free in January.

 

I would be surprised if this isn't led by our deteriorating financial position, an unsustainable overdraft limit, a very inexperienced team producing poor results at home, reduced crowds and the bank questioning our lack of use of experienced and international players who are available, but being paid. Maybe the ego has to give in to the bank's common sense. If we are paying them, use them.

[OldNick]

Yes that's right. So if Lowe wanted to get rid of Rudi then the best way was to play him and give him the opportunity to show what he can do.

 

So since you have dismissed lack of motivation on Rudi's part, why wasn't he playing? Injury? Lack of fitness? His lack of fitness cannot be because he isn't motivated, because you've already dismissed that. Could it be he is unfit because of him being sidelined and deliberately ignored in order to force him to accept any offer? Possibly.

 

If we needed Rudi off the payroll you aren't going to do it by letting him become unfit and leaving him out of the side.

 

I'm afraid all the circumstances lead one to the inevitable conclusion that Lowe's approach was utterly counter-productive. It got to the point before Sheff U that he just had to change his approach, and get something out of Skacel rather than pay him for nothing, while at the same time putting him in the window for January.

All of a sudden Rudi seems to be the new demi god. He is a half decent player who is onm massive wages and as far as I can see he is yet to make himself a must play even when the appearance money was not so imperitive to the clubs health.

He (which is his right) would not leave to the german team or Ipswich on a lower contract or the other side would not agree terms.

He is happy to sit on his contract and wait for the club to be in such a position he will be allowed to go for free.

Now that is fine, but he is hurting every fan of the club, but as he is seen as a star that seems to be ok with some. The club made a decision to not play him under the current financial restraints (banks or Lowes who knows?). He has now been selected and did ok and has the incentive to do well so he can get another juicy contract from another club whose fans believe he is worth it.

Frankly if he had not come to us with such a reputation from Hearts and had a big price tag he would have been booed long ago.

I will support him and wish him well in a saints shirt but will never believe he is ever interested in the fans of football club called SFC, he will only be looking after number 1

[OldNick]

I would be surprised if this isn't led by our deteriorating financial position, an unsustainable overdraft limit, a very inexperienced team producing poor results at home, reduced crowds and the bank questioning our lack of use of experienced and international players who are available, but being paid. Maybe the ego has to give in to the bank's common sense. If we are paying them, use them.

Derry can you tell me where all of a sudden the bank has told us to play the experienced players.I would not wish to think that you are exaggerating especially as DMG is not a guarenteed starter every game.

If so if fans are unhappy that RL is selecting the team they should be more worried if the guy from the halifax advert is

[hughieslastminutegoal]

All of a sudden Rudi seems to be the new demi god. He is a half decent player who is onm massive wages and as far as I can see he is yet to make himself a must play even when the appearance money was not so imperitive to the clubs health.

He (which is his right) would not leave to the german team or Ipswich on a lower contract or the other side would not agree terms.

He is happy to sit on his contract and wait for the club to be in such a position he will be allowed to go for free.

Now that is fine, but he is hurting every fan of the club, but as he is seen as a star that seems to be ok with some. The club made a decision to not play him under the current financial restraints (banks or Lowes who knows?). He has now been selected and did ok and has the incentive to do well so he can get another juicy contract from another club whose fans believe he is worth it.

Frankly if he had not come to us with such a reputation from Hearts and had a big price tag he would have been booed long ago.

I will support him and wish him well in a saints shirt but will never believe he is ever interested in the fans of football club called SFC, he will only be looking after number 1

 

I agree with you, I don't really rate him much either, though he is potentially better than some of the kids.

 

You seem to be agreeing with me because you say that playing gives him the incentive to do well and secure a juicy contract elsewhere. Someone seems to have bitten the bullet that playing him is needed even if it might cost us more (though the club actually denied that - but you seem to think the denial was untrue!).

 

Motivating him to play and earn that juicy contract elsewhere should have been in the plan from the outset, not set out to make the guy even more resentful.

There was no logic whatsoever in ostracising the guy and paying him for nothing until January. You could have used some of that money to subsidise a move away maybe. You'd have saved something at least.

[NickG]

trouble is we are debating and forming opinions, naturally, without the facts?

 

Was he ostracised? Did he sulk/strike?

 

Quite understandably in a personnel contract issue -particularly as personal it is not made public

[Weston Saint]

I agree with you, I don't really rate him much either, though he is potentially better than some of the kids.

 

You seem to be agreeing with me because you say that playing gives him the incentive to do well and secure a juicy contract elsewhere. Someone seems to have bitten the bullet that playing him is needed even if it might cost us more (though the club actually denied that - but you seem to think the denial was untrue!).

 

Motivating him to play and earn that juicy contract elsewhere should have been in the plan from the outset, not set out to make the guy even more resentful.

There was no logic whatsoever in ostracising the guy and paying him for nothing until January. You could have used some of that money to subsidise a move away maybe. You'd have saved something at least.

 

From what I know it is costing us each time he plays but not enough to make that the reason to leave him out.

[Gordon Mockles]

There are lessons to be learnt from last night, for management and fans alike.

 

DON'T BE DAFT!! Saints never learnt from past lessons. You, of all people, should know that Alpine, m' old fruit!

[OldNick]

From what I know it is costing us each time he plays but not enough to make that the reason to leave him out.

I would suggest the club wanted him off the wage bill and were perplexed as he would not go and happy to sit on his contract.They may not have wished to reward him by playing him and hoped that he may drop his appearance money demands to get games to raise attention of other clubs.As fans have said we dont know the full facts and so only surmise.

I would rather he played but I do understand if the club is short of money why they dont.I doubt if he plays he adds many to the attendance but if he contributes to a winning team then that may add to the gate.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

trouble is we are debating and forming opinions, naturally, without the facts?

 

Was he ostracised? Did he sulk/strike?

 

Quite understandably in a personnel contract issue -particularly as personal it is not made public

 

He sat on the bench once - not striking. He played last night - not striking.

He put in a decent effort at Sheff U - seemingly not sulking.

 

He's obviously only playing now to put him in the window for January, with the added potential benefit that his experience might help, albeit temporarily.

 

But taking your point, maybe he has decided to stop sulking/striking, but if he was sulking/striking, and I really wanted to unload him, I'd have used some of the wages I was going to waste paying him to do nothing on subsidising a loan away, or paying part of his wages in a permanent move somewhere else. After all, Lowe must have realised that ignoring him was not likely to get him off the payroll until January at least.

 

I really think it's odds on that the obsession with playing youth right from the off got in the way of sensibly dealing with Skacel.

[OldNick]

He sat on the bench once - not striking. He played last night - not striking.

He put in a decent effort at Sheff U - seemingly not sulking.

 

He's obviously only playing now to put him in the window for January, with the added potential benefit that his experience might help, albeit temporarily.

 

But taking your point, maybe he has decided to stop sulking/striking, but if he was sulking/striking, and I really wanted to unload him, I'd have used some of the wages I was going to waste paying him to do nothing on subsidising a loan away, or paying part of his wages in a permanent move somewhere else. After all, Lowe must have realised that ignoring him was not likely to get him off the payroll until January at least.

 

I really think it's odds on that the obsession with playing youth right from the off got in the way of sensibly dealing with Skacel.

All very sensible, but we are talking footballers/agents and football clubs

We dont know the facts or strategies but the club were peeved he wouldnt do his move Im led to believe.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

I would suggest the club wanted him off the wage bill and were perplexed as he would not go and happy to sit on his contract.

 

If Lowe was perplexed about that, then he's learned even less about football, and footballers, than I thought.

[OldNick]

If Lowe was perplexed about that, then he's learned even less about football, and footballers, than I thought.

I said club, but if you wish to put it as Rl then fine.

If they want to make a point then perhaps freezing him out has done him some good.

[derry]

Derry can you tell me where all of a sudden the bank has told us to play the experienced players.I would not wish to think that you are exaggerating especially as DMG is not a guarenteed starter every game.

If so if fans are unhappy that RL is selecting the team they should be more worried if the guy from the halifax advert is

 

This is one of variable conclusions, based on an increased overdraft, an unhappy bank, an inability to reduce it, poor gates that won't increase without improved results, expensive experienced players paid but not being picked, an inexperienced team incapable of winning either at home (twice) or when exposed on tv. A stated strategy of playing primarily the youngsters.

 

Notwithstanding the information previously available from a number of sources there now appears to be a sudden change of strategy. The experienced players as fit and available are going to be used to beef up the team and halt the slide. Unless it is Lowe ditching the previous strategy voluntarily it could be external pressure to improve the immediate financial position.

[NickG]

He sat on the bench once - not striking. He played last night - not striking.

He put in a decent effort at Sheff U - seemingly not sulking.

 

He's obviously only playing now to put him in the window for January, with the added potential benefit that his experience might help, albeit temporarily.

 

But taking your point, maybe he has decided to stop sulking/striking, but if he was sulking/striking, and I really wanted to unload him, I'd have used some of the wages I was going to waste paying him to do nothing on subsidising a loan away, or paying part of his wages in a permanent move somewhere else. After all, Lowe must have realised that ignoring him was not likely to get him off the payroll until January at least.

 

I really think it's odds on that the obsession with playing youth right from the off got in the way of sensibly dealing with Skacel.

 

in summary -we don't know what happened but lets hope it is now sorted

[derry]

I said club, but if you wish to put it as Rl then fine.

If they want to make a point then perhaps freezing him out has done him some good.

 

Skacel proved at Hearts that he has the bottle to fight his corner in any dispute. I don't think this is anything but an attempt to stem the tide of poor results. Skacel will certainly go in due course. I am not certain but I think he signed a four year contract which has 20 months left on it. For him there is no need to take a financial hit.

[OldNick]

This is one of variable conclusions, based on an increased overdraft, an unhappy bank, an inability to reduce it, poor gates that won't increase without improved results, expensive experienced players paid but not being picked, an inexperienced team incapable of winning either at home (twice) or when exposed on tv. A stated strategy of playing primarily the youngsters.

 

Notwithstanding the information previously available from a number of sources there now appears to be a sudden change of strategy. The experienced players as fit and available are going to be used to beef up the team and halt the slide. Unless it is Lowe ditching the previous strategy voluntarily it could be external pressure to improve the immediate financial position.

That was like reading one of the government ministers answers Derry.

I get yuor drift, but to be fair Rudi travelled with the squad before the Watford game but didnt play. Stern arrived back from international duty and had travelled a long distance and so may not have been ready saturday.We have played a lot of the older players in games already but injuries have hamperd theoir involvment.

If the club have altered their selection and it proves a winning formula that is only good.At least it would mean that if RL was behind the selections he will move unlike the beliefs of many.

I still respectfully suggest that the result the other night was a pleasant surprise but does not mean by playing John and Riudi that things have altered that much

[derry]

That was like reading one of the government ministers answers Derry.

I get yuor drift, but to be fair Rudi travelled with the squad before the Watford game but didnt play. Stern arrived back from international duty and had travelled a long distance and so may not have been ready saturday.We have played a lot of the older players in games already but injuries have hamperd theoir involvment.

If the club have altered their selection and it proves a winning formula that is only good.At least it would mean that if RL was behind the selections he will move unlike the beliefs of many.

I still respectfully suggest that the result the other night was a pleasant surprise but does not mean by playing John and Riudi that things have altered that much

 

I support bringing through as many young players as possible. Every team needs a backbone but we were quite fragile. If we could have sustained the start of season passing football for 90 mins it might have worked. As the weeks have passed the players have reverted to their original way of playing, that has not been good enough.

 

I'm not sure about John or Euell, but Skacel is a good footballer and wherever he plays back or mid gives us solidity down the left. I can see Mills playing in front of him until Holmes gets fully fit.

 

Knowing where the McGoldrick/Skacel/Lowe information came from makes me think either circumstances, or the rumoured meeting with the bank changed the emphasis.

[OldNick]

I support bringing through as many young players as possible. Every team needs a backbone but we were quite fragile. If we could have sustained the start of season passing football for 90 mins it might have worked. As the weeks have passed the players have reverted to their original way of playing, that has not been good enough.

 

I'm not sure about John or Euell, but Skacel is a good footballer and wherever he plays back or mid gives us solidity down the left. I can see Mills playing in front of him until Holmes gets fully fit.

 

Knowing where the McGoldrick/Skacel/Lowe information came from makes me think either circumstances, or the rumoured meeting with the bank changed the emphasis.

I do think that Rudi made Bale look a lot better when he played alongside him.

[derry]

I do think that Rudi made Bale look a lot better when he played alongside him.

 

He is needed to do the same for Mills until we get Holmes back. If they do well then Holmes can play on the right that would give us a solid right with Cork at right back.

[OldNick]

He is needed to do the same for Mills until we get Holmes back. If they do well then Holmes can play on the right that would give us a solid right with Cork at right back.

I like Holmes and felt he was going to be missed. If Rudi's inclusion means the fans being more optimistic then that is good to me.Also if he does help mills its good

[John B]

Amazing that when Alpine shows a bit of diffidence, you accuse him of arrogance.

 

I hope that a lesson learned after last night is that a blend of older, experienced players with the youngsters is beneficial. And the lesson from the Watford game is that we ought to play 4-4-2 at home.

 

Totally agree we need 4 4 2 at home