Racism

[Professor]

The thread in The Saints Forum on Jason Puncheon moved onto an interesting discussion of racism. Wondering if its worth carrying it on as a non-saints subject on its own account.

 

I'm old enough to recall a time when some older people, and maybe too many of them, believed out of their own ignorance that degrees of intelligence were linked to race. I don't think there is much of that kind of racism about today but what is about, is people tending to favour their own 'kind'. That may be on grounds of race, nationality, religion, or simply the area in which they were brought-up or now live. Kids on one estate hating kids on another is not racist but it has all the same evils about it that old fashioned racism had. In football, the rivalry between Portsmouth and Southampton fans, which is not unusual between some supporters of nearby clubs elsewhere in the country, could easily become unhealthy, just as we are seeing in Glasgow.

 

Race is used to insult people - words such as Chinky, Paki, Wog, Honky - just as non-racist insults are often based on physical characterists or place of origin - Fatso, Wimp, Scouser, Frog, Kraut - the list goes on...... The question is, what can be done about it if this is a natural aspect of human, and mostly male, behaviour?

[Saintandy666]

I think race is much less of an issue these days than it was say even 10 years ago and I think that will continue to decline as new generations come through. I had an interesting conversation with a friend who is black, who is strictly South African, but has also lived in America. She told me that other here in comparison to those countries race is a total non-issue. However, she did think that class was a bigger social cleavage and I have to agree with her.

 

Then again, I live in a largely white middle class town which is generally very tolerant, but that is my viewpoint.

 

I wouldn't say that racism is a natural aspect of human behaviour though. I think we are a product of our surroundings.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

A lot of racism, or perceived racism is in the eye of the beholder. In the other thread people have said that I am looking for racism where it isn't present. This may be a valid point and there are a lot of situations where an observation can be seen as racism, even though nothing derogatory was mentioned or implied.

A good example of this is the program Scrubs. There are a lot of situations with the relationship between JD and Turk and the things said by JD are very close to the line, and I am sure some people may find it racist.

 

And what do people make of the following statement:

 

'You wanna go get some chicken? Black guys love fried chicken'.

 

Is that racist? Is it derogatory? In general, I have found it to be true, and so is an observation of behaviour.

[Deppo]

white people are mad corny

[miserableoldgit]

Two points:- Firstly, it does seem strange that the "racism" thing is such a major thing on this forum when it seems quite acceptable - in fact, almost compulsory - to call people who come from Portsmouth "skates" and "fish fiddlers".

Secondly, I was watching "Come Dine With Me" a few weeks ago, when out of the four contestants, three were black. When the first host, who was black himself welcomed his final guest, the third non-white, he said with great excitement "Oh fantastic - another black person!" I wonder how this remark would have been greeted if the roles were reversed and there had been three white people.

I am totally against racism in all of its forms, BUT there has to be some use of common sense in the situation, a level playing field for all and less of the "witch-hunt" looking for racism where there isn`t any most of the time

[1976_Child]

I've always believed that very few people are truly racist - the 'my genes are better than your genes', Aryan Super Race type of racism.

 

Most 'paki bashing' (if you will excuse the phrase) is much more a cultural thing. When cultures rub up along side each other and have little in common or are even critical of attributes of the other then there will naturally be tensions which will express themselves in what might appear 'racist'. Here's an example. Why do the Indians and Pakistanis hate each other so much? It ain't because of skin colour, hair style or genes. It is because of cultural issues.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Come on dunce, where are ya?!?

[View From The Top]

I work in the heart of the Black Country and racism is alive and well but (appears) to be no longer based on skin colour but religion and is almost exclusively wrapped up in ignorance and general dumbness.

 

Think of the EDL video about mind rays and you'll understand.

 

Any racism coming the other way is usually based on US/UK foreign policy and again is also based on ignorance and dumbness.

 

The "Poles" take the brunt in the white middle class town where I live.

[LGTL]

As VFTP says, it's no longer based on skin colour, more an ignorance and irrational fear of anyone who isn't English and who wasn't born and bred in this country. This is largely caused by the media who love to pull out the "we are being taken over" card every so often. It's ironic too because I wonder how many of these simpletons who harp on about our country adopting Sharia Law and all the rest of it also support Israel?

[Sour Mash]

What I never understand is why racism is seen as such a bad offence compared to other forms of other forms of discrimination and within the law? For example, there is a significant difference in the sentencing between assault and racially aggravated assault. If I was to be attacked, I wouldn't really care why it was done.

[Golden Balls]

The one thing I think doesn't help the racism issue is that it's not a 2 way thing.

 

I'm 23, white, straight, British and male. It seems I would not be taken seriously with any sort of offence towards me. It's basically okay and accepted to say anything about my age, colour, sexuality and/or gender.

 

The 'Come Dine With Me' comment above is a good example. If a white person said that to a black person, there would be uproar!

 

If you watch a lot of African-American comedians, they get away with a lot of racism. If it was a white person, it wouldn't be allowed.

 

This in my opinion is what causes racism in our society.

[Saintandy666]

The one thing I think doesn't help the racism issue is that it's not a 2 way thing.

 

I'm 23, white, straight, British and male. It seems I would not be taken seriously with any sort of offence towards me. It's basically okay and accepted to say anything about my age, colour, sexuality and/or gender.

 

The 'Come Dine With Me' comment above is a good example. If a white person said that to a black person, there would be uproar!

 

If you watch a lot of African-American comedians, they get away with a lot of racism. If it was a white person, it wouldn't be allowed.

 

This in my opinion is what causes racism in our society.

 

But it's the context. Of course I'm allowed to called myself a massive honkey or cracker or whatever, but it's difference when it is cross racial. Also, you have to look at in the context of history. The white man has never been oppressed like the black man.

 

I think racism is mainly down to a lack of intelligence and education.

[Thedelldays]

puncheon looks like a mongrel

[benjii]

I'm old enough to recall a time when some older people, and maybe too many of them, believed out of their own ignorance that degrees of intelligence were linked to race.

 

Actually, that is a correct belief.

 

These people seem to be pretty grounded so I would take their word for it:

 

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=36788

[View From The Top]

puncheon looks like a mongrel

 

 

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/9850215/The_English_are_a_mongrel_nation_whatever_Channel_4_claim/

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/welcome-to-the-mongrel-nation-667933.html

 

http://www.yourdiscovery.com/history/mongrel_nation/

 

 

We all are if we consider ourselves English.

[Sour Mash]

The thread in The Saints Forum on Jason Puncheon moved onto an interesting discussion of racism. Wondering if its worth carrying it on as a non-saints subject on its own account.

 

I'm old enough to recall a time when some older people, and maybe too many of them, believed out of their own ignorance that degrees of intelligence were linked to race. I don't think there is much of that kind of racism about today but what is about, is people tending to favour their own 'kind'. That may be on grounds of race, nationality, religion, or simply the area in which they were brought-up or now live. Kids on one estate hating kids on another is not racist but it has all the same evils about it that old fashioned racism had. In football, the rivalry between Portsmouth and Southampton fans, which is not unusual between some supporters of nearby clubs elsewhere in the country, could easily become unhealthy, just as we are seeing in Glasgow.

 

Race is used to insult people - words such as Chinky, Paki, Wog, Honky - just as non-racist insults are often based on physical characterists or place of origin - Fatso, Wimp, Scouser, Frog, Kraut - the list goes on...... The question is, what can be done about it if this is a natural aspect of human, and mostly male, behaviour?

 

Do you believe that certain races are better are certain things than others? Is it racist to believe that certain races have different things that they are strong/weak at?

[dune]

Come on dunce, where are ya?!?

 

I read the thread title and thought i'd get a mention lol.

[jawillwill]

In the interests of anyone wishing to read further, this thread contains extreme stupidity.

[Turkish]

Where is verbal? I want to know where he stands on this issue.

[dune]

Do you believe that certain races are better are certain things than others? Is it racist to believe that certain races have different things that they are strong/weak at?

 

It's not politically correct to discuss the theories of Charles Darwin anymore. Science is superceeded by the opinions of the Liberal Elite.

[franny]

But it's the context. Of course I'm allowed to called myself a massive honkey or cracker or whatever, but it's difference when it is cross racial. Also, you have to look at in the context of history. The white man has never been oppressed like the black man.

 

I think racism is mainly down to a lack of intelligence and education.

 

I think you are right about the context but also the intent in which things are said and those with an axe to grind will always find fault if they go looking for it.

 

However I think the last comment is too simplistic, I have known peopel with racist tendencies who are well educated and intelligent - one of the worst was a dentist.

On one level it may be people trying to exploit peoples insecurities & fears for their own ends (political or greed) or simply the fear of something or somebody different to them or the lack of understanding. Look at the intertribal bloodshed in Africa (black on black), the fighting in the Balkans (religious and or ethnic/political conflict) and even in NI/Scotland where white christians battle each other. Even on this site people mock Eton educated "toffs" for political reasons - did Cameron choose to be born to particular parents or sent to a particular school, did others choose to be born in council house backgrounds and go to the local comprehensives?

For me the simple tenet of life is to treat people how you would like to be treated - the issue fo rme is how peopel behave, I have known tw4ts of all sorts of colours, background and creeds and also have friends from the same diverse backgrounds.

[benjii]

Indeed, Cameron is a top bloke.

[Thedelldays]

Where is verbal? I want to know where he stands on this issue.

 

has verbal posted since osama was killed..?

 

spooky

[Turkish]

has verbal posted since osama was killed..?

 

spooky

 

I dont recall him posting since promotion, odd that, for a Saints fan.

[Thedelldays]

I dont recall him posting since promotion, odd that, for a Saints fan.

 

probably does even know what promotion in football actually is...

[Barry the Badger]

Two points:- Firstly, it does seem strange that the "racism" thing is such a major thing on this forum when it seems quite acceptable - in fact, almost compulsory - to call people who come from Portsmouth "skates" and "fish fiddlers".

Secondly, I was watching "Come Dine With Me" a few weeks ago, when out of the four contestants, three were black. When the first host, who was black himself welcomed his final guest, the third non-white, he said with great excitement "Oh fantastic - another black person!" I wonder how this remark would have been greeted if the roles were reversed and there had been three white people.

I am totally against racism in all of its forms, BUT there has to be some use of common sense in the situation, a level playing field for all and less of the "witch-hunt" looking for racism where there isn`t any most of the time

 

NO. You mention common sense but this is exactly the type of thinking that tries to eradicate common sense from such situations.

 

A black person saying "oh great, another black person" in a jokey way is not even worthy of entering discussion.

 

Equally, somebody trying to compare a nickname for a group from a local city with racism is utterly ridiculous.

 

I hate it when those bloody "why is it ok to take the **** out of a ginger person for being ginger but not a black person for being black" threads pop up too. The last time I checked the gingers weren't enslaved, killed, tortured etc simply for being ginger.

[Smirking_Saint]

Everyone is different, different 'races' are inheritantly built different, in much the same way that sexes are built differently.

 

Some will be better then others at certain things, and some won't.

 

This is where Political Correctness and the like falls on its ass, it attempts to force everyone to be equal, when in reallity that will never ever be the case.

 

Everyone calls each other by obvious differences, for instance if you were looking at a group of people you would say him in the red shirt, her with the short hair etc etc.

If everyone is similar but one person is black and you innocently say 'the black person' , is that racist ??

 

I detest any form of hatred that is aimed at peoples differences, but at times I believe the racist card is thrown out there far too willy nilly. Common sense is being corroded in the world with the introduction of the PC and H&S brigades.

 

All IMO ofcourse.

[Crab Lungs]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-13566526

[Saintandy666]

It's not politically correct to discuss the theories of Charles Darwin anymore. Science is superceeded by the opinions of the Liberal Elite.

 

Seriously, what the **** are you on about?

[Saintandy666]

I think you are right about the context but also the intent in which things are said and those with an axe to grind will always find fault if they go looking for it.

 

However I think the last comment is too simplistic, I have known peopel with racist tendencies who are well educated and intelligent - one of the worst was a dentist.

On one level it may be people trying to exploit peoples insecurities & fears for their own ends (political or greed) or simply the fear of something or somebody different to them or the lack of understanding. Look at the intertribal bloodshed in Africa (black on black), the fighting in the Balkans (religious and or ethnic/political conflict) and even in NI/Scotland where white christians battle each other. Even on this site people mock Eton educated "toffs" for political reasons - did Cameron choose to be born to particular parents or sent to a particular school, did others choose to be born in council house backgrounds and go to the local comprehensives?

For me the simple tenet of life is to treat people how you would like to be treated - the issue fo rme is how peopel behave, I have known tw4ts of all sorts of colours, background and creeds and also have friends from the same diverse backgrounds.

 

I guess you do have those different categories.

 

Those who wish to exploit - greed and power.

Those who are scared - lack of education.

 

Indeed, it is our choices which define who we are and it would be wonderful to live in a world where we are judged by the the content of our characters over any socially constructed group we created. However, on Cameron he didn't help himself, particularly with his conduct while at Oxford to escape the stereotype.

[Saintandy666]

Do you believe that certain races are better are certain things than others? Is it racist to believe that certain races have different things that they are strong/weak at?

 

That isn't racist. That is racialism, but it is very dangerous and murky ground and a small step to racism. I think that in the end the differences between a black man and a white man are mainly cultural. There are obviously genetic differences between different groups, but I don't believe they should hold any social or political conclusions. After all, we are all part of the human race!!!

[westofshannonsaint]

If everyone is similar but one person is black and you innocently say 'the black person' , is that racist ??

 

A couple of years ago, when a few girls in work were talking about Xfactor & who they wanted to win I said "I like the black girl, she has a good voice" and was told "you cant say that - it's offensive to Olu" I checked with Olu & he wasn't offended.

[Thedelldays]

Puncheon is still a mongrel

[Fowllyd]

Here's an example which I encountered at St Mary's.

 

I was watching the JPT game against Norwich way up in the Kingsland stand, and had been chatting to a few other supporters who sat there regularly. Come the penalty shoot-out, Michail Antonio had a chance to win the match with his kick - he didn't. One of the chaps I'd been talking to during the game turned to me and said something like "That's the problem with these black lads - they haven't got the bottle." I pointed out that Papa Waigo had buried his kick, while Lloyd James had missed his (actually, he pretty much passed the ball straight to Norwich's keeper, if I recall correctly). Finally, of course, Wayne Thomas scored the winning penalty.

 

Was this chap a racist? His comment certainly was, relying as it did on casual and ignorant stereotyping. But, during the match, he hadn't come across as some knuckle-dragging dinosaur or potential BNP acolyte. My guess would be that certain stereotypes and generalisations based on skin colour are lodged deep in his mind and get expressed on particular occasions. In my view, such comments should not go unchallenged; if you point out to someone the absurdity of their thinking, they may eventually absorb the message. Not that I'd be holding my breath.

 

Casual racism is far more commonly encountered than the more virulent kind, and it's highly insidious. Such attitudes could easily lead people to be unwilling to offer jobs to black people, for example (the example above suggests to me that, deep down, the person in question regarded black people as potentially unreliable). Come to think of it, I've worked with people who've displayed exactly that attitude when it came to recruitment.

[Turkish]

probably does even know what promotion in football actually is...

 

Dont be ridiculous, he knows everything.

[franny]

I guess you do have those different categories.

 

Those who wish to exploit - greed and power.

Those who are scared - lack of education.

 

Indeed, it is our choices which define who we are and it would be wonderful to live in a world where we are judged by the the content of our characters over any socially constructed group we created. However, on Cameron he didn't help himself, particularly with his conduct while at Oxford to escape the stereotype.

 

I agree, my point being you should judge people on their actions not their colour/creed/background over which they have no control and to refer to the individuals in a disparaging way because of their background is every bit as ignorant as it would be because of colour or creed. That is not to say I have never fallen in to the trap but we should all be aware of the prejudices we carry with us and try and not to let them influence us.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

I agree, my point being you should judge people on their actions not their colour/creed/background over which they have no control and to refer to the individuals in a disparaging way because of their background is every bit as ignorant as it would be because of colour or creed. That is not to say I have never fallen in to the trap but we should all be aware of the prejudices we carry with us and try and not to let them influence us.

 

This.

 

And this kind of sums it all up. http://onespiritproject.com/judgemenot.shtml

[norwaysaint]

Everyone is different, different 'races' are inheritantly built different, in much the same way that sexes are built differently.

 

Some will be better then others at certain things, and some won't.

 

This is where Political Correctness and the like falls on its ass, it attempts to force everyone to be equal, when in reallity that will never ever be the case.

 

Everyone calls each other by obvious differences, for instance if you were looking at a group of people you would say him in the red shirt, her with the short hair etc etc.

If everyone is similar but one person is black and you innocently say 'the black person' , is that racist ??

 

.

 

This is pretty common ignorance on your part actually.

 

Political correctness is not to ignore race, but not to discriminate unfairly.

 

For example, if you're looking for an actor to play Winston Churchill in a film, telling an actor they are unsuitable because they are a black woman is not unfair discrimination. Telling somebody they're not suitable for a job as a computer programmer because they are a black woman is unfair discrimination.

 

Discrimination in itself is something that every person needs to use all of the time or we would die. It is not the same thing as unfair discrimination on racial grounds. I have been unceasingly amazed at how many people cannot understand this simple concept.

 

Surely everybody with a brain agrees that unfair discrimination is wrong and if they do, they are PC. I don't see the connection between right and left wing. Are people saying to be right wing is to single out one group and victimise them unfairly? Surely not.

 

Most cases of "PC gone mad" are not anything to do with PC. The idea of "banning Christmas" is very non-PC, as it discriminates against one cultural group. If you say you are anti-PC, anybody doing something like that is one of yours.

 

Most things that are called PC gone mad are, oddly, to do with over-protective Health and Safety regulations which have absolutely zero connection with being politically correct.

 

I know this will go over the heads of many posters on here who will continue to mindlessly quote newspaper articles about PC gone mad and the fact that most people won't get it will only serve to irritate me. The word PC will continue to be used mainly by people who don't know what it means as a way to attack the left wing over silly decisions made by silly people (who are actually acting in a non-PC way or work in Health and Safety).

[miserableoldgit]

NO. You mention common sense but this is exactly the type of thinking that tries to eradicate common sense from such situations.

 

A black person saying "oh great, another black person" in a jokey way is not even worthy of entering discussion.

 

Equally, somebody trying to compare a nickname for a group from a local city with racism is utterly ridiculous.

 

I hate it when those bloody "why is it ok to take the **** out of a ginger person for being ginger but not a black person for being black" threads pop up too. The last time I checked the gingers weren't enslaved, killed, tortured etc simply for being ginger.

Firstly the remark on the programme was not said in a jokey way. The guy was really pleased that a third black person had shown up and showed it. My point was that if it had been three white people and one black person and the first white person had said "fantastic, another white person", all hell would have been let loose.

Secondly, please tell me where the line is drawn between taking the **** out of somebody because of their race, religion or creed etc and the "remarks" aimed at someone from a different city. I can see no difference. As for your final remark, this is the most simplistic assesment I have ever heard. I know that throughout history, never mind the Holocaust, the Jews, for example, have been "enslaved, killed, tortured etc", but there doesn`t seem to be the "sensitivity" surrounding remarks/jokes about them that there does with black people. Throughout history people of all races and colours have been "enslaved, killed, tortured etc", often by their own people. This is the 21st Century. Supposedly more enlightened times. Generally speaking people are trying to put right the "wrongs" of the past, but it has to be a level playing field with mutual respect all round. We cannot be continually wringing our hands and saying sorry. The past is the past. Lets get on with the future.

[JRM]

White males are under-represented at the Olympics - Olympics are institutionally racist, as is the premier league.

[Turkish]

Puncheon is still a mongrel

 

As someone who has made it my business to be offended for others, i find this offensive Jamie.

[View From The Top]

Seriously, what the **** are you on about?

 

Stanley believes in the theories of social Darwinism which spawned eugenics and the argument behind the Nazis "super race".

[thesaint sfc]

I think people take things too seriously.

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

Do you believe that certain races are better are certain things than others? Is it racist to believe that certain races have different things that they are strong/weak at?

 

Well, there are certain diseases which are more prevalent in different races, such as sickle-cell anaemia in black races, so there definitely are differences in the races; but the main problem in society at present is the people who are offended on behalf of other people, colours or races who themselves don't take offence. All this rubbish from Councils who insist on flags of St George not being flown or stopping butchers from having photos of pigs in the window of their shops. I cannot believe that a single Muslim in this country would be offended by a photograph of a Saddleback or Gloucester Old Spot.

[Verbal]

Well, there are certain diseases which are more prevalent in different races, such as sickle-cell anaemia in black races, so there definitely are differences in the races.

 

This isn't true. Sickle-cell anaemia affects peoples who've historically developed resistance to malaria. So those for example of West African descent, including many Afro-Carribbean people as well as black Americans, suffer from it in greater proportions than others. But so do people from the Mediterranean (Cypriots notably) and Indians. Every time someone tries to pin something on 'race' it quickly turns to dust. Sickle-cell anaemia, like many 'heritable' diseases, has its origins in environmental conditions.

[Verbal]

Dont be ridiculous, he knows everything.

 

This is of course true.

[Smirking_Saint]

This is pretty common ignorance on your part actually.

 

Political correctness is not to ignore race, but not to discriminate unfairly.

 

For example, if you're looking for an actor to play Winston Churchill in a film, telling an actor they are unsuitable because they are a black woman is not unfair discrimination. Telling somebody they're not suitable for a job as a computer programmer because they are a black woman is unfair discrimination.

 

Discrimination in itself is something that every person needs to use all of the time or we would die. It is not the same thing as unfair discrimination on racial grounds. I have been unceasingly amazed at how many people cannot understand this simple concept.

 

Surely everybody with a brain agrees that unfair discrimination is wrong and if they do, they are PC. I don't see the connection between right and left wing. Are people saying to be right wing is to single out one group and victimise them unfairly? Surely not.

 

Most cases of "PC gone mad" are not anything to do with PC. The idea of "banning Christmas" is very non-PC, as it discriminates against one cultural group. If you say you are anti-PC, anybody doing something like that is one of yours.

 

Most things that are called PC gone mad are, oddly, to do with over-protective Health and Safety regulations which have absolutely zero connection with being politically correct.

 

I know this will go over the heads of many posters on here who will continue to mindlessly quote newspaper articles about PC gone mad and the fact that most people won't get it will only serve to irritate me. The word PC will continue to be used mainly by people who don't know what it means as a way to attack the left wing over silly decisions made by silly people (who are actually acting in a non-PC way or work in Health and Safety).

 

Thats actually a very reasonable and intelligent arguement from you Norway, and yes, I 100% agree with it.

 

The problem being that the PC world has taken on a whole new mind of its own, the most annoying part, as people have said before in this thread are those that use PC to beat people with and even in order to take offence on someone elses account.

 

H&S is of course unrelated to PC'ness, I just think that is another very workeable and probably intelligent concept that has taken on a whole new mind of its own and has made many things become, frankly, unworkeable.

 

The blame, shame and sue culture certainly has not helped things either.

[Sour Mash]

This isn't true. Sickle-cell anaemia affects peoples who've historically developed resistance to malaria. So those for example of West African descent, including many Afro-Carribbean people as well as black Americans, suffer from it in greater proportions than others. But so do people from the Mediterranean (Cypriots notably) and Indians. Every time someone tries to pin something on 'race' it quickly turns to dust. Sickle-cell anaemia, like many 'heritable' diseases, has its origins in environmental conditions.

 

So you don't think, for example, that those from parts of Africa and their descendants are not genetically pre-disposed to running faster over short-distances than those from say Eastern Asia? You think that’s purely cultural?

[View From The Top]

This isn't true. Sickle-cell anaemia affects peoples who've historically developed resistance to malaria. So those for example of West African descent, including many Afro-Carribbean people as well as black Americans, suffer from it in greater proportions than others. But so do people from the Mediterranean (Cypriots notably) and Indians. Every time someone tries to pin something on 'race' it quickly turns to dust. Sickle-cell anaemia, like many 'heritable' diseases, has its origins in environmental conditions.

 

Everyday's a school day!

[1976_Child]

Anyone who has been to East Africa will know that the kids run up to you saying 'Muzungu! Give me money'. Muzungu means 'White man' in Swahili. It is used in the pejorative.

 

Now, if I am strolling down Brixton High Street what would people think if I went up to someone and said 'Negro! give me money!'

 

Not sure I would last very long. Just throw that out there... racism cuts both ways.