pingwing Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Hate to say it, as I thought I was contributing, but most of that is well over me. Because its largely irrelevant with regards to Punch. He's been criticized because of his very very poor form, followed by a falling out with the management and him playing "Barry big balls" which does not sit well with most football fans, as we are contributing to his wages. The racist undertones DPS has brought up realistically have only been voiced by him with no actual evidence. There is conjecture that in theory fan's jumping on the back of a player can be provoked by the colour of skin, but the only relevant experience I have seen of this has been towards Guly during his "settling in" period with fans blaming him very wrongly for the first half performance against Huddersfield at home. Racism is only in the eye of the beholder and the attitude towards Punch has had nothing to do with it which has made this thread quite absurd. The sooner he's sold the better so we can continue to develop a team that accepts this is how the team is run and has nothing to do with silly personalities.
John B Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Because its largely irrelevant with regards to Punch. He's been criticized because of his very very poor form, followed by a falling out with the management and him playing "Barry big balls" which does not sit well with most football fans, as we are contributing to his wages. The racist undertones DPS has brought up realistically have only been voiced by him with no actual evidence. There is conjecture that in theory fan's jumping on the back of a player can be provoked by the colour of skin, but the only relevant experience I have seen of this has been towards Guly during his "settling in" period with fans blaming him very wrongly for the first half performance against Huddersfield at home. Racism is only in the eye of the beholder and the attitude towards Punch has had nothing to do with it which has made this thread quite absurd. The sooner he's sold the better so we can continue to develop a team that accepts this is how the team is run and has nothing to do with silly personalities. Perhaps Jason Puncheon wanted to play in the PL and was ****ed off when Cortese refused him a chance to talk to another club
Turkish Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 I assume you havent read his bio. My post was in reply to someone saying black players get less adulation than white players. Pele is recognised as one of the best players of all time when racism was rife, i didn't say he wasn't a victim of it, but it certainly didn't alter the way he is regarded as a footballer.
hypochondriac Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 What an utterly pathetic thread which really deserves little discussion. Puncheon has acted like a bit of an idiot and so people dislike him. The sane thing would happen if he was white brown or slightly yellow. Do you honestly think that if puncheon was white that this would not have occurred? Some people on here strike me as slightly insane.
um pahars Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Why not turn it on it's head. When was the last time we really idolized a black player? Personally, I can't think of any since the Wallace brothers. Which is a bit strange when you think of the number of black players at the club. I think the general point that black players get more stick and less adoration is proably valid, though I'm not sure that Puncheon is the best example as he's done himself no favours. Walcott was idolised and woud have been even more had we managed to keep him. Oxo is getting there. Dean Richards got the Player of the Year. Some idolised Ken Monkou. Carlton Palmer had a fan club. Tahar's new boots. I think we were all itching for Delgado to be a hero (same with Best and Balckstock).
Ewell Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 What an utterly pathetic thread which really deserves little discussion. Puncheon has acted like a bit of an idiot and so people dislike him. The sane thing would happen if he was white brown or slightly yellow. Do you honestly think that if puncheon was white that this would not have occurred? Some people on here strike me as slightly insane. In a nutshell. This thread should be locked and the majority on it should be band for being stupid.
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Speaking of players with bad attitudes towards this grand old club, did anyone else see what Kevin Philips had to say in the Sunday papers about his attitude towards our final 04/05 season Premiership game v Man Utd last weekend ? What a utter, utter, kn0b that man is.
Crab Lungs Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Speaking of players with bad attitudes towards this grand old club, did anyone else see what Kevin Philips had to say in the Sunday papers about his attitude towards our final 04/05 season Premiership game v Man Utd last weekend ? What a utter, utter, kn0b that man is. No, but please tell! Now he is genuinely a massive ****.
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 It was along the lines of - "our last game was against United so we all knew we were already relegated" If you go into any game with that attitude I would say that defeat is a racing certainty - I wasn't that impressed to put it mildly.
verlaine1979 Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Because its largely irrelevant with regards to Punch. He's been criticized because of his very very poor form, followed by a falling out with the management and him playing "Barry big balls" I'm going to use my last post of the day to point out the irony in your rebuttal of racist undertones essentially boiling down to calling Puncheon uppity. Well played, Sir, well played...
O_RLY Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Why do Saints fans love laying in to players so much? Especially the interweb fans.
rallyboy Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 To mention race re Puncheon could be judged an attempt to blur the issue over his footballing shortcomings, making this thread three pages too long. I remember his last outing for us as a decent one in which he had full support from the crowd, but that doesn't fit his sob story. Early season his shooting was woeful, his defensive work for both Millwall and Blackpool was appalling, he was often seen in the corner of the frame as goals were scored - failing to track or just hiding. Holloway was so impressed with Puncheon's contribution to their freefall and relegation that rather than sending him back as surplus to requirements he immediately did everything in his power to retain him for next season..... All the managers that haven't wanted him, are they all wrong? Most fans frustration with him is that we know he can do better, we have seen glimpses of that - but he fails more often than not. To put it down to the one in fifty idiots shouting rubbish is IMO a new twist but a little far-fetched. He so got on the wrong bus! - but with the accuracy of his shooting I'm surprised he managed to board anything with less than a ten metre wide door.
Turkish Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 To mention race re Puncheon could be judged an attempt to blur the issue over his footballing shortcomings, making this thread three pages too long. I remember his last outing for us as a decent one in which he had full support from the crowd, but that doesn't fit his sob story. Early season his shooting was woeful, his defensive work for both Millwall and Blackpool was appalling, he was often seen in the corner of the frame as goals were scored - failing to track or just hiding. Holloway was so impressed with Puncheon's contribution to their freefall and relegation that rather than sending him back as surplus to requirements he immediately did everything in his power to retain him for next season..... All the managers that haven't wanted him, are they all wrong? Most fans frustration with him is that we know he can do better, we have seen glimpses of that - but he fails more often than not. To put it down to the one in fifty idiots shouting rubbish is IMO a new twist but a little far-fetched. He so got on the wrong bus! - but with the accuracy of his shooting I'm surprised he managed to board anything with less than a ten metre wide door. You're only saying that because he's black.
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 As I stated way, way up-stream in this thread, I actually agree with you. I think your argument is more nuanced that most people on here are giving you credit for. This isn't a simple dichotomy; it's not a question that all black players will be derided and all white players adored. The idea is simply that for various deep-seated cultural reasons, non-white players are perhaps not giving the benefit of the doubt quite as readily as white players are. You only have to look at the language in question to see it is a continuation of a particular thread of racial stereotyping that has existed since the 17th century (laziness, fecklessness, unreliability etc etc). You don't have to consciously be a bigot for these currents to have effect. As a specific example, if you contrast the language used to denigrate a player like Pulis, he's decribed as "sh*t" or some other abstracted fecal derogation. Puncheon on the other hand seems excessively likely to be criticised with language that, dare I say it, seems designed to remind him that he's forgotten his place? The language people use reveals a great deal about their unconscious prejudices. I'm still waiting for the canard of 'naive' African defending to die out from modern commentary, so to suggest that everything is (ahem) now lilly-white in terms of football's attitude to race, is utterly absurd. And I did notice the one voice in the dark, so thanks. It's a real shame that no-one else has understood what I am getting at.
um pahars Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 And I did notice the one voice in the dark, so thanks. It's a real shame that no-one else has understood what I am getting at. Oh I think a lot do understand what you are getting at, it's just that they don't think what you are getting at is correct. Many of us think you're tilting at windmills my friend.
derry Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Nothing controversial in the call. He didn't fit in with the management so they won't have him back if there is an alternative. It would be sensible to sell him for the best price and move on.
Crab Lungs Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 It was along the lines of - "our last game was against United so we all knew we were already relegated" If you go into any game with that attitude I would say that defeat is a racing certainty - I wasn't that impressed to put it mildly. Possibly 'Arry's fault as well, (as per Turkish comments on the JR thread) if the squad thinks like that! Shocking nonetheless. I think the worst bit was that we actually went out without a whimper... United not even in 2nd gear and us huffing and puffing and getting nowhere
Windmill Arm 2 Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 This. Clearly a good footballer but a massive pr1ck.[/QUOTE] Why does everything have to be sexual with you????
Crab Lungs Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 This. Clearly a good footballer but a massive pr1ck.[/QUOTE] Why does everything have to be sexual with you???? Yeah, I've just realised I called someone a massive c0(k as well. Uh oh.
Professor Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Some people know they are black and some know they are white, but some are neither one or the other. How many black grandparents must you have to have to be 'black' and how many white ones to be white. But the BIG questioin is, what on earth has this got to do with Jason Puncheon? Jason, like all of us, is who is due to nature and nurture, which has nothing to do with skin colour unless it is something that other people have used against us.
hypochondriac Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 And I did notice the one voice in the dark, so thanks. It's a real shame that no-one else has understood what I am getting at. Lol. Everyone understands what you are saying. You think that white players are given more of a chance at our club than black players. 99% on this board have understood that but are of the opinion that it is utter horsesh*t.
John B Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Why do Saints fans love laying in to players so much? Especially the interweb fans. Yes I agree but then some go the other way so that players like Lallana can do no wrong
Chicken With A Banjo Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 And I did notice the one voice in the dark, so thanks. It's a real shame that no-one else has understood what I am getting at. I am also in agreement with the things you are saying here. However, skin colour is not the only characteristic that football fans will tend to subconciously latch on to. With Fabrice Fernandes for instance it was was his Frenchness which obviously equates to him being lazy and selfish.
Give it to Ron Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 I am also in agreement with the things you are saying here. However, skin colour is not the only characteristic that football fans will tend to subconciously latch on to. With Fabrice Fernandes for instance it was was his Frenchness which obviously equates to him being lazy and selfish. Too right I boo'd that bandy bald headed git Melia...welll he deserved it. I am baldist. That Chatterley was useless I am Lewist Perry Groves...Gingerist Rupert Lowe ...red cheekist Dave McLaren...ninegoalagainstist Sorry you are way off here IMO.
Dogs Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Why not turn it on it's head. When was the last time we really idolized a black player? Personally, I can't think of any since the Wallace brothers. Which is a bit strange when you think of the number of black players at the club. I think the general point that black players get more stick and less adoration is proably valid, though I'm not sure that Puncheon is the best example as he's done himself no favours. I totally agree Danbert,i mentioned this on previous threads,i must admit on occasions i have felt disgusted and embarrassed in the stands,racism aint saintly!!!!!!!!!
pingwing Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 I'm going to use my last post of the day to point out the irony in your rebuttal of racist undertones essentially boiling down to calling Puncheon uppity. Well played, Sir, well played... Urm what? It'd be ironic if I had said he'd been uppity because he is black... That's how irony tends to work there as my point was he was being uppity and that doesnt tend to sit well with fan's when the player is not performing. The race issue has been imposed by other posters for no reason other than ultimately they enjoy looking for racist overtones for what ever nonsense reasons. Puncheon is leaving because he is an idiot and has not respected the authority of those who run the club. Nothing to do with race there...
revolution saint Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 I have to say I don't honestly think any criticism of Puncheon on here or during games was racially motivated, but I'll take on board the subconsious racist stuff, and I just don't think it's applicable in this case. I'm one of the biggest lefties around and I'd probably agree with DP if I could but in this case I don't. Of course if I'm a subconsious racist though then I would say that.... Anyway what I would take issue with is this almost given that Puncheon's attitude is a bad one - it may well be, but none of us know him, and none of us can judge him on that score. Take the interview - what did we get? A few pages of vitriol telling him to do one until a few people pointed out that he didn't actually say anything wrong, derogatory or indeed anything that would indicate a bad attitude. People can criticise him all they like for his on field performances if they want - that's their right but FWIW I thought and still think he's a pretty good player. To be honest though this is pretty typical of fans in general. Remember when we most of us were livid at the thought of Pardew going last season, and once NA came in and started winning a few games that outrage was quickly forgotten about. At the end of the day (to use a well worn cliche) all we as fans care about is success - we don't really care if a player has a bad attitude when we're doing well but we sure as hell do if we're doing badly, and if said scapegoat hasn't got a bad attitude? That's not a problem because we'll invent one for him.
Tamesaint Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 The bloke who sits near us and used to slag off Puncheon so loudly has now switched to slagging off Guly. Before JP it was Jermaine Wright who constantly annoyed him. Coincidence???,
alpine_saint Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 Nope Pulis was ****. As is Forecast. Puncheon is decent, but people decided to boo him cos he was black. As was Nathan Dyer, as was BWP, as is Guly. All had their boo boys. And David McGoldrick. Ken Monkou ? Ulrich van Gobbel ? Kenwyne Jones (before he turned into a c**t) ? Rueben Agboola ? Ray Wallace ? Danny Wallace ? David Speedie ? Drop this racist b*ll*cks. Its lazy and convenient.
alpine_saint Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 The bloke who sits near us and used to slag off Puncheon so loudly has now switched to slagging off Guly. Before JP it was Jermaine Wright who constantly annoyed him. Coincidence???, yes.
Seany S Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 Pele is recognised as one of the best players of all time True dat. I cried salt tears when he upped sticks to go to West Brom. Can't go back.
Daren W Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 I'm going to use my last post of the day to point out the irony in your rebuttal of racist undertones essentially boiling down to calling Puncheon uppity. Well played, Sir, well played... Let me get this straight, accusing someone of being, in your words, "Uppity" now has racist overtones?? Perhaps it's just me but I find it deeply ironic to see people spouting all sorts of nonsense about racism whilst desperately searching for some sort of tenuous link to racism? So someone accuses Puncheon of being Billy Big Balls, or uppity as you put it, and you run off with some ridiculous comparison that perhaps that as he's black it's an analogy about having ideas above his station?? White or black, surely having ideas above one's station is a class thing not a race thing? Personally I think there's more racism in people desperately looking for racist overtones in these posts than anything else on this thread...
verlaine1979 Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 Let me get this straight, accusing someone of being, in your words, "Uppity" now has racist overtones?? Perhaps it's just me but I find it deeply ironic to see people spouting all sorts of nonsense about racism whilst desperately searching for some sort of tenuous link to racism? So someone accuses Puncheon of being Billy Big Balls, or uppity as you put it, and you run off with some ridiculous comparison that perhaps that as he's black it's an analogy about having ideas above his station?? White or black, surely having ideas above one's station is a class thing not a race thing? Personally I think there's more racism in people desperately looking for racist overtones in these posts than anything else on this thread... Yes, unfortunately the idea of young black men being 'uppity' does have very strong racist overtones - see the furore in 2008 caused by a Georgia congressman when he described then candidate Obama in those terms. It's very simple - Jason Puncheon clearly felt himself to be sufficiently talented to deserve a shot at playing in the premier league, he presumably (since none of us know) pursued that through generally accepted channels, and ultimately won the opportunity to play at a higher level. Then, in holding down a regular position & scoring goals in that Premier League team, he rather proved his point. I'm sorry, but wanting the best for yourself, pursuing it, and proving that you were right doesn't make you a 'billy big balls' or uppity or anything else; and unfortunately, within memory, this particular contour of argument seems to emerge most strongly when a non-white player is involved. Puncheon may, personally, be a deeply unpleasant individual. I have no idea, having never met him. My problem is with the generic criticism and broad brush-strokes of the language on here; they're the product of lazy thinking, and lazy thinking tends to be regressive. And unfortunately you don't have to regress too far into our history for racism to switch from covert to overt. Oh, and between you and me, I find the argument that racial sensitivity is racist in and of itself, both illogical and self-serving.
Turkish Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 Yes we are all racist because we didn't take to kindly to a player throwing a strop and refusing to travel with the team and generally appearing not to give his all when playing and therefore not performing to the level he believes himself to be capable of. There are some seriously weird people on this forum.
SnailOB Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 What a disgraceful thread this has turned into ! Shameful that fans feel they have to name black players at the club that they liked in order to prove to certain individuals that they are not racist. Utter tripe !! Fans always have favourites and fans will always turn on players who they feel mis represent their club or who have nade derogatory comments about their club and I cannot recall where race, colour etc.. has ever come into it. If those minority posters are trying to claim that Southampton FC are followed by racists then they should be ashamed of themselves.
Big Bad Bob Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 Blah blah drivel drivel Oh, and between you and me, I find the argument that racial sensitivity is racist in and of itself, both illogical and self-serving. I guess you had something to do with this then??
Sour Mash Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 As I stated way, way up-stream in this thread, I actually agree with you. I think your argument is more nuanced that most people on here are giving you credit for. This isn't a simple dichotomy; it's not a question that all black players will be derided and all white players adored. The idea is simply that for various deep-seated cultural reasons, non-white players are perhaps not giving the benefit of the doubt quite as readily as white players are. You only have to look at the language in question to see it is a continuation of a particular thread of racial stereotyping that has existed since the 17th century (laziness, fecklessness, unreliability etc etc). You don't have to consciously be a bigot for these currents to have effect. As a specific example, if you contrast the language used to denigrate a player like Pulis, he's decribed as "sh*t" or some other abstracted fecal derogation. Puncheon on the other hand seems excessively likely to be criticised with language that, dare I say it, seems designed to remind him that he's forgotten his place? The language people use reveals a great deal about their unconscious prejudices. I'm still waiting for the canard of 'naive' African defending to die out from modern commentary, so to suggest that everything is (ahem) now lilly-white in terms of football's attitude to race, is utterly absurd. Wish I'd spotted this thread earlier, full of classic ammusing posts like this
Big Bad Bob Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 (edited) And what about the denigration of such players as Skatcel and Rasiak, I seem to remember them coming in for an awful amount of stick because of their lack of movement and (apparent) lack of commitment to the cause. Or were we picking on them just because "they's is Polish"?? I'm going to add Saganowski to this one too, yet another Pole Really Prof verlaine1979 just because you have an obvious academic background and can use flowery speech to embelish your posts doesn't make you correct. Edited 25 May, 2011 by Big Bad Bob
Turkish Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 Yes, unfortunately the idea of young black men being 'uppity' does have very strong racist overtones - see the furore in 2008 caused by a Georgia congressman when he described then candidate Obama in those terms. It's very simple - Jason Puncheon clearly felt himself to be sufficiently talented to deserve a shot at playing in the premier league, he presumably (since none of us know) pursued that through generally accepted channels, and ultimately won the opportunity to play at a higher level. Then, in holding down a regular position & scoring goals in that Premier League team, he rather proved his point. I'm sorry, but wanting the best for yourself, pursuing it, and proving that you were right doesn't make you a 'billy big balls' or uppity or anything else; and unfortunately, within memory, this particular contour of argument seems to emerge most strongly when a non-white player is involved. Puncheon may, personally, be a deeply unpleasant individual. I have no idea, having never met him. My problem is with the generic criticism and broad brush-strokes of the language on here; they're the product of lazy thinking, and lazy thinking tends to be regressive. And unfortunately you don't have to regress too far into our history for racism to switch from covert to overt. Oh, and between you and me, I find the argument that racial sensitivity is racist in and of itself, both illogical and self-serving. Surely the fact that Puncheon have proven himself right and gone on to prove himself at a higher level and show he is capable of better than he was producing at Saints prove Saints fans right that he wasn't giving his all and peforming as he can, therefore warranted his critics. Given his performances at Millwall and Blackpool he should have been tearing League one apart, the fact that he wasn't justifies Saints fans getting a bit "Uppity"* about his lack of performance for us. * I hope our black fans aren't offended by me using the word uppity in this context.
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 (edited) Yes we are all racist because we didn't take to kindly to a player throwing a strop and refusing to travel with the team and generally appearing not to give his all when playing and therefore not performing to the level he believes himself to be capable of. There are some seriously weird people on this forum. See, you don't get the argument. You've proved that by saying 'Yes we are all racist...'! This was never about everyone being racist. However, I believe some Saints fan get on the backs of black players quicker than white players, and I believe some have a racially motivated agenda. See the comments on this thread about Puncheon when he said nothing wrong in the interview. If you don't understand, don't comment. Edited 25 May, 2011 by Dibden Purlieu Saint
Turkish Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 See, you don't get the argument. You've proved that by saying 'Yes we are all racist...'! If you don't understand, don't comment. I wasn't replying to you. And i do understand your attempt at an arguement and i believe you are wrong.
solentstars Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 Surely the fact that Puncheon have proven himself right and gone on to prove himself at a higher level and show he is capable of better than he was producing at Saints prove Saints fans right that he wasn't giving his all and peforming as he can, therefore warranted his critics. Given his performances at Millwall and Blackpool he should have been tearing League one apart, the fact that he wasn't justifies Saints fans getting a bit "Uppity"* about his lack of performance for us. * I hope our black fans aren't offended by me using the word uppity in this context.your right in what you say but he did have some decent games which made no difference to certain sections of our fanbase while the likes of lambert hammond etc played **** and he still had some fans on his back before he even kicked a ball and became our target for abuse and i noticed guly in his early days had the same problem. i don,t blame him or any other player wanting to get away from that type of abuse. i would have loved to see him and chamberlain next season in the championship playing for saints has i believe they would rip sides apart with their skills.
Turkish Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 your right in what you say but he did have some decent games which made no difference to certain sections of our fanbase while the likes of lambert hammond etc played **** and he still had some fans on his back before he even kicked a ball and became our target for abuse and i noticed guly in his early days had the same problem. i don,t blame him or any other player wanting to get away from that type of abuse. i would have loved to see him and chamberlain next season in the championship playing for saints has i believe they would rip sides apart with their skills. I agree with what you are saying, but i think this is more to do with the fact that for some reason Antonio was the darling of the fans for a while, depsite not actually being that good. IMO PUncheon was a far better player, but a lot of here prefered Antonio. I remember having numerous discussions about this last summer and early in the season. Also by the type of player Puncheon is he is not going to be brillaint for 90 minutes week in week out but has that ability, much like Guly to unlock a defence by offering something different. Unfortunately a lot of our fans dont seem to understand that and prefer players that appear to work harder but are less effective. People still rave about Waigo and Antonio and still question Gulys ability, yet statistically Guly is more effective than both of them.
Millbrook Saint Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 And I did notice the one voice in the dark, so thanks. It's a real shame that no-one else has understood what I am getting at. I don't think I like your rascist undertones, I can't beleive you've used that word.
Gemmel Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 Yes, unfortunately the idea of young black men being 'uppity' does have very strong racist overtones - see the furore in 2008 caused by a Georgia congressman when he described then candidate Obama in those terms. It's very simple - Jason Puncheon clearly felt himself to be sufficiently talented to deserve a shot at playing in the premier league, he presumably (since none of us know) pursued that through generally accepted channels, and ultimately won the opportunity to play at a higher level. Then, in holding down a regular position & scoring goals in that Premier League team, he rather proved his point. I'm sorry, but wanting the best for yourself, pursuing it, and proving that you were right doesn't make you a 'billy big balls' or uppity or anything else; and unfortunately, within memory, this particular contour of argument seems to emerge most strongly when a non-white player is involved. Puncheon may, personally, be a deeply unpleasant individual. I have no idea, having never met him. My problem is with the generic criticism and broad brush-strokes of the language on here; they're the product of lazy thinking, and lazy thinking tends to be regressive. And unfortunately you don't have to regress too far into our history for racism to switch from covert to overt. Oh, and between you and me, I find the argument that racial sensitivity is racist in and of itself, both illogical and self-serving. Which racist berk, wrote this sweeping statement. Completely agree, has always looked a deeply limited player to me. He was embarrassingly poor on his England debut against France. Typical English lump of a striker, no touch, no skill. http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?27915-Transfer-deadline-day-thread!&p=952355#post952355
Matthew Le God Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 Which racist berk, wrote this sweeping statement. Completely agree, has always looked a deeply limited player to me. He was embarrassingly poor on his England debut against France. Typical English lump of a striker, no touch, no skill. http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?27915-Transfer-deadline-day-thread!&p=952355#post952355 The English aren't a race. There is no such thing as "race", in terms of genetics.
Gemmel Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 The English aren't a race. There is no such thing as "race", in terms of genetics. Its not MLT on twitter. We are not financed by loans. Go and bore someone else mlt
Matthew Le God Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 Go and bore someone else mlt You were the one that implied the English were a race. Not me.
Big Bad Bob Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 Its not MLT on twitter. We are not financed by loans. Go and bore someone else mlt However much it pains me to agree with the pedagogue, I must. English is a nationality, if he'd called him a typical lump of a caucasian striker, well then we would have had Uncle Tom's Cabin all over again
Avenue Saint Posted 25 May, 2011 Posted 25 May, 2011 there is no place in modern society for racism, everyone with half a brain knows that and our proud club thankfully isnt of the ilk of say the milwalls or leeds of this world where perhaps a dying breed of an element, still unfortunately exists. But the fact that puncheon has got stick i would imagine has been largely based on his attitude rather than anything else, so no issue of racism here. Perhaps neither does debate based in this light need to continue?
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