Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 It isn't racism then, is it? They wanted the better player to be playing. In any case, there is no such thing a "race". The Human Genome Project has determined unequivocally that there is the same amount of genetic variation among individuals within a so called racial group as there is between individuals in different racial groups. What that means is that there is no real genetic difference between blacks and whites or between whites and Asians or between any of the so called races. We are just human... My point is that people got on Puncheon's back a lot quicker than they would or did to white players. That is my opinion on it.
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 On this DPS, I agree. I don't mind admitting that I made my first post on this thread without the benefit of listening to the the interview. Having listened to it, I really do not see what JP said to cause any offence. He is a sportsman trying to do the best that he can to secure a contract somewhere - he was complimentary of Saints. The 'prove somebody wrong' comment was actually started by the interviewer - Jason agreed, but never laboured the point or hinted at anybody in particular. When I watched him against United on Sunday I thought he had an ok game, not great, not bad. Like many others, I was hoping he would have a blinder, which might allow us to 'hike the price' if he does go. Others have suggested that there is an 'attitude' problem, and if that is the case then I would rather cash in now and let him go. However, all of that said - I still cannot see how the OP's (misguided) opinion, or any others here have got you going on about the racism angle. As I said before, if that is your opinion perhaps you should have aired your concerns halfway through the season, so people could guage whether you had a point whilst at subsequent games. I did raise it earlier in the Season, and I assume that people decided to ignore it.
Tony F Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Perhaps I am wrong on this one, I agree, but personally it has been something I have noticed over the years. People like McGoldrick, Dyer, BWP, K Jones, Best, Puncheon. All of them were seen as having bad attitudes. I just wonder whether they actually did, or whether it was an over-reaction due to aforementioned racism? It looks to me that you have now had your question answered by the "wider council" of Forum Users. Players with arrogance or other forms of bad attitude have always been slated (including pre-Internet and pre-Forum days) by fans paying good money to watch their team. The fact that you list a few players that have fallen into this category and linked them by skin colour proves nothing. I could list white players who fit it equally well but you've already dismissed that as being an non-acceptable response to the discussion. I hope you can now put this particular theory to bed along with such other historical examples of theories being proved well and truly being wrong. Eg the world being flat and an (IT early days) calculation that the man would only ever require a maximum of 6 computers. Now where were we........? "Jason Puncheon is a serial underperforming and petulant footballer - great potential spoiled by arrogance" - discuss.
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 It looks to me that you have now had your question answered by the "wider council" of Forum Users. Players with arrogance or other forms of bad attitude have always been slated (including pre-Internet and pre-Forum days) by fans paying good money to watch their team. The fact that you list a few players that have fallen into this category and linked them by skin colour proves nothing. I could list white players who fit it equally well but you've already dismissed that as being an non-acceptable response to the discussion. Challenge accepted. I'll start you off with...Tommy Forecast
Turkish Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 I've not said the whole fanbase doesn't like black players though have I? Either way, as said it is hard to prove that some of the fanbase are racist. However, would you be surprised if some of the people who go to St Mary's have decided they don't like him because he is black, whether they have shouted racist remarks, or just booed? I am sure there are some fans who are racist, in 20,000 odd thousand people it's sadly inevitable. However if Puncheon was booed for this reason then so should Jaidi, Chamberlain, Walcott, Waigo, Antonio, Mellis and going way back Ken Monkou, Danny Wallace, Rodney Wallace etc. I am not quite sure what you are claiming or trying to justify but saying some of our fans are racist because they didn't like one black player who had an attitude and has shown himself to be a bit of ***** in his time here when there are dozens of examples of black players who have been popular because they haven't got an attitude is, shall we say a little bit wierd and imaging a problem when there isn't one.
Micky Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 My point is that people got on Puncheon's back a lot quicker than they would or did to white players. That is my opinion on it. I did raise it earlier in the Season, and I assume that people decided to ignore it. If that is so, then perhaps they did ignore it, perhaps, like now they disagreed with it. That is their opinion on it.
Crispypie Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 No, I do genuinly believe that some fans are racist, Oh, I wondered what the "Kick racism out of football" campaign was about, (not rocket science is it) and as such will go out of their way to criticise black players. Is this was a wind up I wouldn't be anywhere near as diplomatic as I am being. So, as I said before, either man up or shut up, or perhaps more appropriatly start another thread on the subject. If you are accusing someone of being racist then accuse them. Your lame attempt to hide your accusation in a generalisation just adds to your rep of being a WUM. Now you admit to saying a similar thing in another thread so what are you trying to achieve here? (other than provacation). Let's try this one then. What was the reason for the original post? To stir the sh1t, just like many other threads. Are we going to see accusations of racism on every thread that refers to a players/managers attitude. I guess that makes me racist concerning Ian Hollerway, (yes I did spell that incorrectly on purpose).
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 It looks to me that you have now had your question answered by the "wider council" of Forum Users. Players with arrogance or other forms of bad attitude have always been slated (including pre-Internet and pre-Forum days) by fans paying good money to watch their team. The fact that you list a few players that have fallen into this category and linked them by skin colour proves nothing. I could list white players who fit it equally well but you've already dismissed that as being an non-acceptable response to the discussion. I hope you can now put this particular theory to bed along with such other historical examples of theories being proved well and truly being wrong. Eg the world being flat and an (IT early days) calculation that the man would only ever require a maximum of 6 computers. Now where were we........? "Jason Puncheon is a serial underperforming and petulant footballer - great potential spoiled by arrogance" - discuss. So your opinion is that no Saints fan has booed and criticised Puncheon more harshly based on skin colour.
Turkish Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 My point is that people got on Puncheon's back a lot quicker than they would or did to white players. That is my opinion on it. I think a part of this had to do with the fact that at the start of the season some of our fans were annoyed we hadn't kept Antonio and or Waigo (oh look black players) and felt that, certainly Antonios case, he was a better play. I recall myself being involved in a number of discussion on here early in the season about which player was better.
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 If that is so, then perhaps they did ignore it, perhaps, like now they disagreed with it. That is their opinion on it. Oh yeah, don't disagree with that. I'm also not saying other peoples opinions are worng, like numerous people on this thread have said to me. It is my opinion on the matter though, and personally I think it's an interesting way of looking at it, as do others. for Example: 'FWIW I think you're totally right re fans turning on black players quicker. Thought the same thing for a while. You're wasting your time trying to explain it to the mongs on here though. They just don't want to hear it.'
SNSUN Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 To look at the silver lining, had Puncheon not thrown his toys out of the pram, he'd have carried on in the first team, and we'd have only one small saleable asset and a schoolkid, instead of the two saleable assets we have now. (Not that we should sell Oxo of course) Race doesn't come into it imo. We all love Saints and Puncheon made comments about the club we love so dislike him for that. I love my fiancee, if Puncheon made comments about her, I'd dislike him for that too.
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Oh, I wondered what the "Kick racism out of football" campaign was about, (not rocket science is it) So, as I said before, either man up or shut up, or perhaps more appropriatly start another thread on the subject. If you are accusing someone of being racist then accuse them. Your lame attempt to hide your accusation in a generalisation just adds to your rep of being a WUM. Now you admit to saying a similar thing in another thread so what are you trying to achieve here? (other than provacation). To stir the sh1t, just like many other threads. Are we going to see accusations of racism on every thread that refers to a players/managers attitude. I guess that makes me racist concerning Ian Hollerway, (yes I did spell that incorrectly on purpose). As i said before, shhh, men are talking.
Tony F Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Challenge accepted. I'll start you off with...Tommy Forecast How about...... Anthony Pulis. Hmmmm...there's a flaw here ....I've never seen him play (has anyone?) so that must mean I exhibit some other sort of trait of anti-minority-ism which means I judge footballers (or people claiming to be footballers) in a way that.......... No, I can't really define the the crime, though one MUST SURELY EXIST. Maybe I should go to the nearest Police station, say I might have committed an imaginary crime but I don't know what it is. They'll soon equip me (whoops - I almost said "fit me up") with the evidence I need to condemn myself and offer myself for punitive measures - ideally self administered. That will make me feel a whole lot more like a 2011 British citizen.
um pahars Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 My point is that people got on Puncheon's back a lot quicker than they would or did to white players. That is my opinion on it. The whole Dell got on Steve Baker's back the minute he cokced up against Portsmuff and never let him forget it.
Micky Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Oh yeah, don't disagree with that. I'm also not saying other peoples opinions are worng, like numerous people on this thread have said to me. It is my opinion on the matter though, and personally I think it's an interesting way of looking at it, as do others. for Example: 'FWIW I think you're totally right re fans turning on black players quicker. Thought the same thing for a while. You're wasting your time trying to explain it to the mongs on here though. They just don't want to hear it.' Sorry, must of missed that - where did that come from...????
um pahars Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Ha ha forgot about that. Actually I think he offered him his coat as Wright had decided he didn't want to play and wasn't running at all....our thoughtful Sainst fan just didn't want him to get cold I think our mutual friend ran on and told Wright to get his shirt off and swap it for his coat as he would put more effort in than Wrighty was. I think it got a bit heated at that point and he also offered him out. Does he still post on here?????
shurlock Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 (edited) My point is that people got on Puncheon's back a lot quicker than they would or did to white players. That is my opinion on it. Quite apart from race -and its wholly naive to think racism -casual or deep-seated- has disappeared from football, flair players like Punch will always attract a love-hate ambivalence. Because they are naturally talented, more will be expected more from them than say your Wottonesque or indeed your Carlton Palmeresque workhorse. Edited 24 May, 2011 by shurlock reptition
Crispypie Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 As i said before, shhh, men are talking. You butted in first.
Tony F Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 So your opinion is that no Saints fan has booed and criticised Puncheon more harshly based on skin colour. Turkish's answer #159 answers this perfectly clearly......thanks Turkish.
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 How about...... Anthony Pulis. Hmmmm...there's a flaw here ....I've never seen him play (has anyone?) so that must mean I exhibit some other sort of trait of anti-minority-ism which means I judge footballers (or people claiming to be footballers) in a way that.......... No, I can't really define the the crime, though one MUST SURELY EXIST. Maybe I should go to the nearest Police station, say I might have committed an imaginary crime but I don't know what it is. They'll soon equip me (whoops - I almost said "fit me up") with the evidence I need to condemn myself and offer myself for punitive measures - ideally self administered. That will make me feel a whole lot more like a 2011 British citizen. You said 'arrogance or bad attitude'. So I want some examples of white Saints players who have been booed due to their attitudes/arrogance. You had problems with the Police have you, seem to be very bitter about something..?
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Sorry, must of missed that - where did that come from...???? One of a number of PM's I received last time I brought this up in Feb.
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 The whole Dell got on Steve Baker's back the minute he cokced up against Portsmuff and never let him forget it. And rightly so. But Puncheon didn't do anything like that...
Crispypie Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Oh yeah, don't disagree with that. I'm also not saying other peoples opinions are worng, like numerous people on this thread have said to me. It is my opinion on the matter though, and personally I think it's an interesting way of looking at it, as do others. for Example: 'FWIW I think you're totally right re fans turning on black players quicker. Thought the same thing for a while. You're wasting your time trying to explain it to the mongs on here though. They just don't want to hear it.' Oh the irony
Gemmel Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 I think our mutual friend ran on and told Wright to get his shirt off and swap it for his coat as he would put more effort in than Wrighty was. I think it got a bit heated at that point and he also offered him out. Does he still post on here????? Yep, that's more in line with how it happened. He reads, but hasn't posted for a while. I'm sure he will text when he reads this
Micky Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 One of a number of PM's I received last time I brought this up in Feb. Oh right - shame the poster is not around to add to the debate now. Even though I still maintain that you are 'off topic' with this particular tac, your point is still relevant - I just don't think that it has any relevance in the scheme of this thread.
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Oh right - shame the poster is not around to add to the debate now. Even though I still maintain that you are 'off topic' with this particular tac, your point is still relevant - I just don't think that it has any relevance in the scheme of this thread. Maybe. To be fair they didn't add to the debate last time. No-one seemed to have the guts to defend what I was saying then, and not now either. Perhaps they aren't logged on!
sotonist Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 At the risk of invoking Ron Atkinson, I seem to remember a distinct lack of effort from some of these players when they were getting their boos.
shurlock Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 (edited) Wright got a lot of unfair stick. He was often dire, though was largely played out of position and the idea that he didn't try -as some people alleged- was just moronic. Yes he was a scapegoat but that was largely because he was seen as one of Burley's favs - and Burley ultimately was the real object of fan ire. Edited 24 May, 2011 by shurlock
Danbert Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Why not turn it on it's head. When was the last time we really idolized a black player? Personally, I can't think of any since the Wallace brothers. Which is a bit strange when you think of the number of black players at the club. I think the general point that black players get more stick and less adoration is proably valid, though I'm not sure that Puncheon is the best example as he's done himself no favours.
St Marco Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Good footballer, but a total dickhe@d. Sure we might have been a bit harsh getting on his back at the start of the season, and he was but one of the players not really looking interested (Lambert being another). But as a proffesional you take that on board and you try and improve. Try and win the fans over with the same displays as the previous season. But he didn't do that, he spat his dummy out. Modern football seems to have way too many of these guys. Rather then work at it they take the easy route and want out. Thankfully for us he did well with Blackpool (scored only 1 less then Crouch,Defoe etc) and we should be able to get a lot of cash from his sale. The sooner he is gone the better for everyone.
shurlock Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Why not turn it on it's head. When was the last time we really idolized a black player? Personally, I can't think of any since the Wallace brothers. Which is a bit strange when you think of the number of black players at the club. I think the general point that black players get more stick and less adoration is proably valid, though I'm not sure that Puncheon is the best example as he's done himself no favours. Of course, you have to take into account/control for the time spent at the club - as a rule of thumb, the longer a player stays, the more likely he'll get cult status. Cant think of many black players who stayed a while with us (of course, we might have driven them all out ). The only player I can really think of is Ken Monkou and he was a bit of a ledge.
Crab Lungs Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Why not turn it on it's head. When was the last time we really idolized a black player? Personally, I can't think of any since the Wallace brothers. Which is a bit strange when you think of the number of black players at the club. I think the general point that black players get more stick and less adoration is proably valid, though I'm not sure that Puncheon is the best example as he's done himself no favours. I idolised big Ken Monkou!
SNSUN Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Why not turn it on it's head. When was the last time we really idolized a black player? Personally, I can't think of any since the Wallace brothers. Which is a bit strange when you think of the number of black players at the club. I think the general point that black players get more stick and less adoration is proably valid, though I'm not sure that Puncheon is the best example as he's done himself no favours. Jaidi? Monkou?
warsash saint Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Jeez - the season only finished a few weeks back & the ridiculous threads have started
Micky Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Ken Monkou (pancake man...!), top, top bloke, great player. Honestly idolised, probably Mick Channon and MLT. After that a whole myriad of great, good, mediocre (but still loved, Franny...!), poor and bad players.
shurlock Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Dean Richards was another with ledge status (again played quite a few games for us)
Saint Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 I've seen threads deteriorate into madness plenty of times but....this? I'm going over to vital boards for some sensible chat.
Turkish Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Why not turn it on it's head. When was the last time we really idolized a black player? Personally, I can't think of any since the Wallace brothers. Which is a bit strange when you think of the number of black players at the club. I think the general point that black players get more stick and less adoration is proably valid, though I'm not sure that Puncheon is the best example as he's done himself no favours. That's right, because Pele missed out being universally regarded as one of, if not the best player to have ever graced the planet because he was black didn't he.
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 The problem with Puncheon is that he thinks he's Ashley Cole but played more like George Cole - when he was in a Saints shirt anyroad.
doddisalegend Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 That's right, because Pele missed out being universally regarded as one of, if not the best player to have ever graced the planet because he was black didn't he. Don't think he was that good turkish plays Northwich Victoria now....................
Turkish Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Don't think he was that good turkish plays Northwich Victoria now.................... Most defiintely the one who got away then. If only we hadn't got on his back for giving away that needless penalty against Derby in the Play off semi. I blame the racists.
doddisalegend Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 most defiintely the one who got away then. If only we hadn't got on his back for giving away that needless penalty against derby in the play off semi. I blame the racists. lol
shurlock Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 That's right, because Pele missed out being universally regarded as one of, if not the best player to have ever graced the planet because he was black didn't he. I assume you havent read his bio.
verlaine1979 Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Maybe. To be fair they didn't add to the debate last time. No-one seemed to have the guts to defend what I was saying then, and not now either. Perhaps they aren't logged on! As I stated way, way up-stream in this thread, I actually agree with you. I think your argument is more nuanced that most people on here are giving you credit for. This isn't a simple dichotomy; it's not a question that all black players will be derided and all white players adored. The idea is simply that for various deep-seated cultural reasons, non-white players are perhaps not giving the benefit of the doubt quite as readily as white players are. You only have to look at the language in question to see it is a continuation of a particular thread of racial stereotyping that has existed since the 17th century (laziness, fecklessness, unreliability etc etc). You don't have to consciously be a bigot for these currents to have effect. As a specific example, if you contrast the language used to denigrate a player like Pulis, he's decribed as "sh*t" or some other abstracted fecal derogation. Puncheon on the other hand seems excessively likely to be criticised with language that, dare I say it, seems designed to remind him that he's forgotten his place? The language people use reveals a great deal about their unconscious prejudices. I'm still waiting for the canard of 'naive' African defending to die out from modern commentary, so to suggest that everything is (ahem) now lilly-white in terms of football's attitude to race, is utterly absurd.
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 Why not turn it on it's head. When was the last time we really idolized a black player? Personally, I can't think of any since the Wallace brothers. Which is a bit strange when you think of the number of black players at the club. I think the general point that black players get more stick and less adoration is proably valid, though I'm not sure that Puncheon is the best example as he's done himself no favours. Ulrich Van Gobbel...
Gemmel Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 No-one seemed to have the guts to defend what I was saying then, and not now either. Perhaps they aren't logged on! A very telling comment. It is if you see it as some crusade..... and it really isn't. Closer to truth is that it is either a wind up or a totally misguided stance. Let it go and chill out.
jawillwill Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 What a stupid argument. Jermaine Wright isn't even black.
Micky Posted 24 May, 2011 Posted 24 May, 2011 As I stated way, way up-stream in this thread, I actually agree with you. I think your argument is more nuanced that most people on here are giving you credit for. This isn't a simple dichotomy; it's not a question that all black players will be derided and all white players adored. The idea is simply that for various deep-seated cultural reasons, non-white players are perhaps not giving the benefit of the doubt quite as readily as white players are. You only have to look at the language in question to see it is a continuation of a particular thread of racial stereotyping that has existed since the 17th century (laziness, fecklessness, unreliability etc etc). You don't have to consciously be a bigot for these currents to have effect. As a specific example, if you contrast the language used to denigrate a player like Pulis, he's decribed as "sh*t" or some other abstracted fecal derogation. Puncheon on the other hand seems excessively likely to be criticised with language that, dare I say it, seems designed to remind him that he's forgotten his place? The language people use reveals a great deal about their unconscious prejudices. I'm still waiting for the canard of 'naive' African defending to die out from modern commentary, so to suggest that everything is (ahem) now lilly-white in terms of football's attitude to race, is utterly absurd. Hate to say it, as I thought I was contributing, but most of that is well over me.
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