Being priced out of football

[Turkish]

I wouldnt mention that while Turkish is on

 

FFS, he'll be saying he missed 10 minutes of the first half as well get one of those bloody awful Pukka Pies they used to see at the Dell. I suppose at least you could still see the pitch from some of the Outlets though.

[Ken Tone]

Talking to fans I know a lot are now not going to games/have reduced the number of games they attend, because of the costs involved. With fuel prices now at unprecendented levels and clubs charging exorbitant amounts for tickets to pay for obscene player wages the future of the game is not looking rosy.

 

Whilst big clubs like Arsenal, Man Utd, Chelsea have the fanbases to fill the gaps left by fans that stop going, other clubs in the tiers below will struggle to sell their capacities - the rot has already set in particularly in the North.

 

Personally I think dwindling attendances are a good thing as this will force clubs to reign in the greed, and i'm hopeful that they will become noticeably smaller next season as reports suggest they will. Saints will buck the trend whilst we are rising in my opinion, but in the medium term I don't think we will.

 

Thought you believed in free market forces Dune? IMO this is the logical consequence of the free market in football. A few big boys get more and more greedy, maybe eventually strangling everything else, until only about 10 -12 teams are left, playing each other every few weeks.

 

But actually I think your basic premise is wrong. Attendances are not dwindling as far as I can see. And they certainly rose during the last 10 -20 years following the post-war decline. Anyone got any definite figures?

[Fitzhugh Fella]

The bubble will burst - it has to.

As for me I couldn't really care less about getting back to the Prem. What would be the point - who can compete with the mega billionaires. Rather be in the Championship where there is a narrower playing field, less diving foreigners and a genuine competitiveness.

[Sour Mash]

You'll still pay it and go.

 

Gave loads a swerve the season we went down and will hopefully not bother with a fair few this coming year, Coventry, Brum, Derby, Ipswich, Swansea (potentially), Leeds, Peterborough (potentially and now they no longer have that class away terrace) all s**te away days that I'm not too bothered about doing again, especially if they're charging £25+ for the privilege.

[The9]

It's got nothing to do with retail price or even joe publics wage inflation and everything to do with footballers wage inflation. Sky's pockets, billionaire bankrollers and the Bosman ruling are the big drivers here.

 

Hmm, whilst I can't argue that player wages have shot up, that was caused by the relatively big money (then) of the Sky tv deal giving teams a bit of money to import better players, thus creating a better product for tv (bigger stars), and as a result creating a cycle of getting more money from Sky (and eventually overseas tv deals). The wages have soared hugely disproportionately to anything OTHER than the tv money - but it was the existence of the Sky tv money that caused the wages to rise initially.

 

Once in the cycle of tv cash = big money for best players, the less important funds raised by people actually AT the matches is utterly irrelevant to club funding. In fact there's an argument for lowering the prices as far as possible to get people in to make the brand look more attractive on tv which helps push global merchandising more than looking like a poky half-liked club with a load of empty seats - on a small scale cheaper tickets could be offset by an increase in catering, programmes sales and other merchandise sales on match days anyway.

[Turkish]

Whats the most you'd pay for premier league football then you lot?? I know a lot of you dreamers think we can make the Champions league but realistically for a club like Saints i'd have to question if PL football was for me when you are talking about paying upwards of £40 a game for us to be in a relegation battle year after year. I certainly wouldn't want to pay it to see us just trying to keep the score down against the big clubs or nick a lucky win here and there. I'd probably go to £40 if we were doing well and finishing upper midtable though. I get pleasure from seeing Saints win, not being battling losers, hence i'm in no rush to get back to the premier league, most definitely not if we have to pay twice as much as we currently do to see us win probably less than half as often.

[sandwichsaint]

Gave loads a swerve the season we went down and will hopefully not bother with a fair few this coming year, Coventry, Brum, Derby, Ipswich, Swansea (potentially), Leeds, Peterborough (potentially and now they no longer have that class away terrace) all s**te away days that I'm not too bothered about doing again, especially if they're charging £25+ for the privilege.

 

Each to their own, Ipswich and Leeds are a couple of my favourite aways though I agree with Cov, Brum and Derby (apart from the play off obviously!).

 

The game I'm most keen to avoid next season is Millwall away (all that penning and queueing to get out); Middlesborough is also a long way to go to menaced by over-aggressive stewards in a souless, half empty St Mary's-lite.

[The9]

No you are missing the point, with season tickets what we want is the best deal, often that is had with the early purchasing, look at the number of season tickets Norwich and Brighton have been able to sell at this level with good offers, the objection is not that it is a late announcement of season ticket details, more that they will be more expensive and less attractive to buy than the ones offered by other clubs.

 

My point is that I want a good deal whenever I have to pay for it, but the sooner I'm told what it costs the sooner I can get it paid for. I definitely object to a late announcement because it forces my hand into a much shorter time period which is less convenient. I knew it was probably going to happen, but I don't have to like it, and the unknown is not a great motivator from a saving perspective.

 

Equally, I don't care what other teams' fans pay, I gain absolutely no benefit as a consumer from the cost of anyone else's tickets because I can't buy them to see Saints 23 times, and my demand for a Saints home ticket is completely inelastic, in that I will want to go to every match.

[The9]

Whats the most you'd pay for premier league football then you lot?? I know a lot of you dreamers think we can make the Champions league but realistically for a club like Saints i'd have to question if PL football was for me when you are talking about paying upwards of £40 a game for us to be in a relegation battle year after year. I certainly wouldn't want to pay it to see us just trying to keep the score down against the big clubs or nick a lucky win here and there. I'd probably go to £40 if we were doing well and finishing upper midtable though. I get pleasure from seeing Saints win, not being battling losers, hence i'm in no rush to get back to the premier league, most definitely not if we have to pay twice as much as we currently do to see us win probably less than half as often.

 

I can't even imagine paying £40 a match in the Prem at the moment, I think with the ST I was paying £18 a match in 2009/10 and about £23 in 2010/11 to see League One, that's knocking double !

 

I suppose the good thing is that there are 4 fewer home matches to have to afford, and there are only really 4-ish teams that Saints are likely to charge that Platinum price for, and they MIGHT be offset by relatively cheaper matches against the likes of Wigan.

[LGTL]

Whats the most you'd pay for premier league football then you lot?? I know a lot of you dreamers think we can make the Champions league but realistically for a club like Saints i'd have to question if PL football was for me when you are talking about paying upwards of £40 a game for us to be in a relegation battle year after year. I certainly wouldn't want to pay it to see us just trying to keep the score down against the big clubs or nick a lucky win here and there. I'd probably go to £40 if we were doing well and finishing upper midtable though. I get pleasure from seeing Saints win, not being battling losers, hence i'm in no rush to get back to the premier league, most definitely not if we have to pay twice as much as we currently do to see us win probably less than half as often.

 

I'd happily pay £650 for a season ticket in the Premiership, an average of £35 a game. That price could be wishful thinking though should it ever happen.

[Sour Mash]

Each to their own, Ipswich and Leeds are a couple of my favourite aways though I agree with Cov, Brum and Derby (apart from the play off obviously!).

 

The game I'm most keen to avoid next season is Millwall away (all that penning and queueing to get out); Middlesborough is also a long way to go to menaced by over-aggressive stewards in a souless, half empty St Mary's-lite.

 

Been to Leeds loads of times and never really enjoyed it. Agree re M'Boro, but I always like a day on the train to the North-East, so I'd prob do that one. Millwall away is a pain getting in and out, but London Bridge is still decent for a drink and its never too expensive for a ticket there.

[Sour Mash]

I'd happily pay £650 for a season ticket in the Premiership, an average of £35 a game. That price could be wishful thinking though should it ever happen.

 

Probably £500 for a season ticket and about £30/35 for a match ticket would be my limit. Anything above that is just starting to take the p**s!

[martel]

Just out of interest I checked the Arsenal web site for ticket prices, their cheapest matchday ticket right behind the goal was 33 pounds, rising to 94 pounds, would be interesting to see what other prem clubs are charging.

[dune]

I've heard people say that for at least the last 15 years. I remember people saying they'd never pay more than £25 for A top-flight game back in the mid-90s. Despite the "current economic climate", can't really see too many signs of anything changing soon.

 

For us, I can't see a change for a bit, but for midlands/northern clubs you can already see the rot setting in.

[Andy_Porter]

Totally agree with this thread, the ticket prices are bad enough in the Championship, I'm not looking forward to £30-£35 tickets again. Part of me hopes we never go back the Premiership, I really think I'd lose all enjoyment and passion for the game paying out £45+ on tickets to places like Fulham.

 

They need to introduce a ticket cap.

[dune]

Totally agree with this thread, the ticket prices are bad enough in the Championship, I'm not looking forward to £30-£35 tickets again. Part of me hopes we never go back the Premiership, I really think I'd lose all enjoyment and passion for the game paying out £45+ on tickets to places like Fulham.

 

They need to introduce a ticket cap.

 

They need to introduce a wage cap for players.

 

Players on disgustingly high wages is why we're being fleeced.

[once_bitterne]

The bubble will burst - it has to.

As for me I couldn't really care less about getting back to the Prem. What would be the point - who can compete with the mega billionaires. Rather be in the Championship where there is a narrower playing field, less diving foreigners and a genuine competitiveness.

 

For SLH you are right, but your argument is somewhat undermined by the fact that we are owned by a family of mega billionaires.

 

The PL bubble will never burst. People around the world will always want to watch the PL on tv even if the numbers of people going to the game live fall. The people who seem to unable to grasp this tend to be people who watch live themselves.

[redkeith]

My first Season Ticket, on the West Stand terraces cost me £26 in 1978, the same as it would cost for one match in the Kingsland in 2011.

 

Went to watch Bordeaux last season, the season after they one the title. Myt ticket cost €18 for a seat behind the goal. You could have paid a lot more for a seat on the sides if you wanted to.

 

English football is very overpriced by comparisson.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

The bubble will burst - it has to.

As for me I couldn't really care less about getting back to the Prem. What would be the point - who can compete with the mega billionaires. Rather be in the Championship where there is a narrower playing field, less diving foreigners and a genuine competitiveness.

 

I have to agree with you but isn't it sad to feel this way?

 

BTW, some of our own UK players are getting the Olympic Diving bug, Walcott amongst others and, lately, Boyd (the other evening) ?

[Turkish]

My first Season Ticket, on the West Stand terraces cost me £26 in 1978, the same as it would cost for one match in the Kingsland in 2011.

 

Went to watch Bordeaux last season, the season after they one the title. Myt ticket cost €18 for a seat behind the goal. You could have paid a lot more for a seat on the sides if you wanted to.

 

English football is very overpriced by comparisson.

 

That's because it's the greatest league in the world.

[instinct]

Is one of the reasons why I prefer going to football games in Germany - pay a reasonable amount for tickets (when I was a student would pay 9-13 euros for a Hertha Berlin student ticket), train travel is cheap for away matches, full stadiums and can drink beer in the stands.

[um pahars]

They need to introduce a wage cap for players.

 

Players on disgustingly high wages is why we're being fleeced.

 

Surely a wage cap would go against your normal free market principles.

 

Additionally, we're being fleeced because that is what the market is prepared to pay. Simply free market economics. If the money wasn't going in the players pockets, then it would be going in the pockets of shareholders, it certainly wouldn't be distributed back to customers.

[1976_Child]

Surely a wage cap would go against your normal free market principles.

 

Additionally, we're being fleeced because that is what the market is prepared to pay. Simply free market economics. If the money wasn't going in the players pockets, then it would be going in the pockets of shareholders, it certainly wouldn't be distributed back to customers.

 

Except in the case of, say, Man City the usual rules of free market capitalism doesn't exist. Having a free market is all very well but you have to turn a profit. There is not a snow ball's chance in hell that City will ever make a true profit on GAAP (generally accepted accountancy principles). Nor Chelski, nor a tonne of other clubs with knob-head owners who spray money around like there is no tomorrow. Any normal company which doesn't never makes a profit eventually goes bust. So free markets would work to keep player wages down if the clubs were forced to make a real operating profit.

[dune]

Surely a wage cap would go against your normal free market principles.

 

Additionally, we're being fleeced because that is what the market is prepared to pay. Simply free market economics. If the money wasn't going in the players pockets, then it would be going in the pockets of shareholders, it certainly wouldn't be distributed back to customers.

 

In case you hadn't noticed Saints are not listed on the stock exchange anymore.

[The9]

They need to introduce a wage cap for players.

 

Players on disgustingly high wages is why we're being fleeced.

 

That's nonsense. High wages are caused by AND paid for by the tv deals. If there was no tv money all the mercenaries would just play somewhere else, and prices would stay the same.

[um pahars]

Except in the case of, say, Man City the usual rules of free market capitalism doesn't exist. Having a free market is all very well but you have to turn a profit. There is not a snow ball's chance in hell that City will ever make a true profit on GAAP (generally accepted accountancy principles). Nor Chelski, nor a tonne of other clubs with knob-head owners who spray money around like there is no tomorrow.

 

All I'm saying is that the amounts paid to players is not the driving force behind us having to pay higher prices at the turnstile and your points back that up, in that what is driving players salaries in many markets are owners pouring money in, or weak management (responding to many pressures) spending more than they earn.

 

So free markets would work to keep player wages down if the clubs were forced to make a real operating profit.

 

If clubs (including ourselves) really had to live by "normal" economic rules, then it might indeed force a more realistic stance with regards wages, but I'm not sure it would have any effect on the prices we're paying at the turnstiles.

 

Ticket prices are solely dictated by what clubs think they can get away with charging and what we are prepared to pay (and it could be made worse in a "normal" trading position with income being even more important if clubs were no longer being subsidised by rich owners).

[um pahars]

In case you hadn't noticed Saints are not listed on the stock exchange anymore.

 

You're going to have to expand on how not being on the Stock Exchange is relevant here.

[dune]

That's nonsense. High wages are caused by AND paid for by the tv deals. If there was no tv money all the mercenaries would just play somewhere else, and prices would stay the same.

 

Of course player wages are the main reason for high ticket prices. Wages are the main expense at clubs.

[dune]

You're going to have to expand on how not being on the Stock Exchange is relevant here.

 

You stated that if money wasn't going to players it'd be going to shareholders.

[The9]

Of course player wages are the main reason for high ticket prices. Wages are the main expense at clubs.

 

Not in the Premier League, the overseas tv deal dwarfs any income from attendances. In the rest of football, there's more truth to it.

[um pahars]

You stated that if money wasn't going to players it'd be going to shareholders.

 

Doh!!!!

 

You don't have to be listed on the Stock Exchange for money to be going to shareholders. The overwhelming majority of companies owned by shareholders are not listed on the Stock Exchange.

[um pahars]

Of course player wages are the main reason for high ticket prices. Wages are the main expense at clubs.

 

So you think that if wage costs were curtailed, then the commercial owners of football clubs would just pass this saving back on to the punters at the turnstiles????

 

Dream on.

[jam]

Surely a wage cap would go against your normal free market principles.

 

Additionally, we're being fleeced because that is what the market is prepared to pay. Simply free market economics. If the money wasn't going in the players pockets, then it would be going in the pockets of shareholders, it certainly wouldn't be distributed back to customers.

 

I find it interesting that in the US the main sporting organisations appear to have non free market, even socialist policies regarding players and salaries.

[jam]

Except in the case of, say, Man City the usual rules of free market capitalism doesn't exist. Having a free market is all very well but you have to turn a profit. There is not a snow ball's chance in hell that City will ever make a true profit on GAAP (generally accepted accountancy principles). Nor Chelski, nor a tonne of other clubs with knob-head owners who spray money around like there is no tomorrow. Any normal company which doesn't never makes a profit eventually goes bust. So free markets would work to keep player wages down if the clubs were forced to make a real operating profit.

 

The owners of Man City still make a profit, they're just using that aspect of their empire as a loss leader to build their brand and presence long term. Bit like what Tesco do.

[david in sweden]

Talking to fans I know a lot are now not going to games/have reduced the number of games they attend, because of the costs involved. With fuel prices now at unprecendented levels and clubs charging exorbitant amounts for tickets to pay for obscene player wages the future of the game is not looking rosy.

 

Whilst big clubs like Arsenal, Man Utd, Chelsea have the fanbases to fill the gaps left by fans that stop going, other clubs in the tiers below will struggle to sell their capacities - the rot has already set in particularly in the North.

 

Personally I think dwindling attendances are a good thing as this will force clubs to reign in the greed, and i'm hopeful that they will become noticeably smaller next season as reports suggest they will. Saints will buck the trend whilst we are rising in my opinion, but in the medium term I don't think we will.

 

whilst I agree with your arguement to some extent, clubs who " want to succeed " rather than just survive will always bid high for the better players (watch Saints in the summer ) and in consequence will pay higher fees /salaries in order to get them ..

(noted . suggestion that Rangers will bid £2.5 million for Puncheon.!!) OK for us if true but then they will be paying lots of £K for his three year salary ! Clubs like companies have to cover their wage bill and cover overheads, and no-one wants to pay more than they have to... Sadly the rich clubs get richer and the rest suffer.

[1976_Child]

The owners of Man City still make a profit, they're just using that aspect of their empire as a loss leader to build their brand and presence long term. Bit like what Tesco do.

 

No, no , no. Wrong. Under GAAP Manchester City is classified as an autonomous unit. It has to produce its own accounts and those accounts would never, ever make a profit. Whether or not the owners other businesses make a profit is irrelevant.

[dune]

So you think that if wage costs were curtailed, then the commercial owners of football clubs would just pass this saving back on to the punters at the turnstiles????

 

Dream on.

 

Of course you're an expert having been a wannabe chairman.

 

The fact is that players wages are the greatest expense and they are main reason for a 100% increase in prices in real terms since the mid 80's.

[um pahars]

The owners of Man City still make a profit, they're just using that aspect of their empire as a loss leader to build their brand and presence long term. Bit like what Tesco do.

 

It really is a strange set up. On the one hand they have collective bargaining, the draft system, collective rights etc, which all sound "socialist" (although the NFL is in the middle of a ***** fight over player costs), yet on the other you have franchises & stadiums all able to be bought, sold and moved just to make more money for the owners (and others).

[um pahars]

The owners of Man City still make a profit, they're just using that aspect of their empire as a loss leader to build their brand and presence long term. Bit like what Tesco do.

 

Personally, I think they, like Roman are just happy blowing their "easily earned cash" on a plaything and enjoying the ride and the ego trip.

[um pahars]

The fact is that players wages are the greatest expense and they are main reason for a 100% increase in prices in real terms since the mid 80's.

 

Costs driving up prices is a rather socialist approach to business. Prices are all about what the customer will pay, not what the costbase is doing.

 

Methinks you have things ar5e about face.

[1976_Child]

Of course you're an expert having been a wannabe chairman.

 

The fact is that players wages are the greatest expense and they are main reason for a 100% increase in prices in real terms since the mid 80's.

 

whether or not this is correct, it is a rock-solid fact that the utterly ridiculous wages are 100% responsible for many clubs which are close to, or have been, bankrupted.

[dune]

Costs driving up prices is a rather socialist approach to business. Prices are all about what the customer will pay, not what the costbase is doing.

 

Methinks you have things ar5e about face.

 

You're wrong. Player wages have shot up during the last 20 years and ticket prices have had to go up to pay for it.

 

 

The big clubs have got richer due to the SKY money/their merchandise income, and the smaller clubs have had to raise their prices to try compete.

[teamsaint]

Just out of interest I checked the Arsenal web site for ticket prices, their cheapest matchday ticket right behind the goal was 33 pounds, rising to 94 pounds, would be interesting to see what other prem clubs are charging.

 

renewals:

 

Fulham from £329

wBA £399

villa From £360, Holte end £405

[up and away]

Sky money has changed football in the Premier to a massive extent. The price of a ticket has escalated exponentially, but the quality of the product has equally changed. The money that brought in the likes of Henry, Cantona etc and kept them here, raised the bar to unexpected heights. Stadiums nowadays are luxury compared to the Dell, where a trip to either the bogs or the hamburger stall would be banned in today's health and safety bubble. Would there still be a market should the recession bite far deeper? I think there would. Maybe some areas would suffer, so you may get some redistribution from poor to richer areas, but I still see sky boxes in homes where benefit is the main source of income. People may well be broke and struggling, but it is surprising the allowance they will go for one luxury, whether that be smoking, drinking or sky.

 

Things were not that great prior to sky, where all but the top 2/3 teams were actively trying to sell their best players. Those great home grown talents that any club produced were plying their trade abroad at their peak. I can understand those that give the Bundesliga as an example, but it's not the same standard, that is the price you have to pay and as demonstrated, many are prepared to do so or it would not exist.

[1976_Child]

You're wrong. Player wages have shot up during the last 20 years and ticket prices have had to go up to pay for it.

 

The big clubs have got richer due to the SKY money/their merchandise income, and the smaller clubs have had to raise their prices to try compete.

 

Spot on. Even if Manure can afford to pay Wooney his £200,000 per week it has a ripple down effect and before long the reserve goalkeepers in the bottom half of league 2 suddenly aren't happy with their £800 a week and want £1,000 which means 20 more tickets have to be sold at a tenner a piece each week to pay for it. It sucks.

[um pahars]

You're wrong. Player wages have shot up during the last 20 years and ticket prices have had to go up to pay for it.

 

The big clubs have got richer due to the SKY money/their merchandise income, and the smaller clubs have had to raise their prices to try compete.

 

So do you really believe that if wages were curtailed then the commercial owners of clubs were reduce their ticket prices???

 

When a consumer decides to make a purchase (or not), he is not influenced by the cost base of the company from whom he is buying it from. All the matters for him is whether it offers value for money.

 

As for the seller, then they will set a price that maximises their income.

[dune]

So do you really believe that if wages were curtailed then the commercial owners of clubs were reduce their ticket prices???

 

In English please.

[um pahars]

which means 20 more tickets have to be sold at a tenner a piece each week to pay for it. It sucks.

 

But people don't buy these extra tickets as they know they have to fund these wages!!!!!

 

Whilst I agree that wage inflation is a huge problem caused by greed and a desire for success, it's not the reason behind rising ticket prices. If the club you mentioned weren't paying those wages, do you think they would turn away those 20 extra tickets???

[um pahars]

In English please.

 

I'mnot sure how much simpler you need it, but:

 

Do you think that if a wage cap/restriction was brought in (therefore reducing costs), then clubs would unilaterally reduce their ticket prices?

[dune]

I'mnot sure how much simpler you need it, but:

 

Do you think that if a wage cap/restriction was brought in (therefore reducing costs), then clubs would unilaterally reduce their ticket prices?

 

I think clubs with spare capacity would be more willing to reduce prices in order to fill their grounds and draw in more punters who would in turn buy merchandise and refreshments. A recent survey conducted by virgin money (think it was them) suggests the uptake for season tickets for next year is set to decline and this is very good news. For clubs like Man Utd this won't be a problem as there are plenty who'll fill the vacated spaces, but for less glamouress clubs it's not sustainable. Less people doesn't just mean less tickets sold, it also means less merchandise and less food and drink.