Jonnyboy Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 The only thing I am defending on here is the individuals right to believe what they want to believe without being given abuse for it. It appears to me that it is the atheists who get riled about this basic right a heck of a lot more than a religious person does. So I can believe absolutely anything anything and no one can call me a mong? Sweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 I entirely agree, to me faith is a rediculous concept and I regard those 'of faith' to be intellectually stunted. It's no surprise that religious belief is less and less prevalent the more educated a society becomes. Intellectually stunted by your definition. I might think you were intellectually stunted by not opening up your mind to anything other than the scientific norm. Try questioning that or are you struggling to find the questions to ask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Of course those are good points and there's no reason why they should be belittled but equally they should also be prepared to have those views questioned. I don't have any belief that I wouldn't be prepared to rationally defend. Personally I have no problem with someone questioning the belief of someone else. It's getting abusive or nasty I don't like just because someone has faith and someone else can't understand why they would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Then I think you are naive to put your faith in science without accepting there could be other alternative explanations. Ummmmm. No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 What if they decide that instead of seeking medical treatment for their child they would pray for them to be healed by God/Jesus? A large number of children have died from curable conditions due to this. Pretty sure that counts as hurting someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 So I can believe absolutely anything anything and no one can call me a mong? Sweet. As far as I'm concerned you can believe what you want as long as it makes you happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 The commandments have been adapted by all Western societies and form the basis of our legal systems. You can cherry pick plenty of parts of all the main religions to support the view that you have taken. However, you're inability to accept any alternative viewpoint makes you as narrow minded, ignorant and bigoted as those religious folk you purport to dislike so much. The commandments also state that the punishment for breaking most of them is death. Is that a good moral code? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Are the commandments not part of the organised religion? They are meant to be the word of the the Judeo-Christian God. Depends upon your interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Pretty sure that counts as hurting someone. It isn't directly hurting them is it? It is denying them medical treatment under the delusion prater to their fictional deity will cure them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Depends upon your interpretation. What are they then in your interpretation of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Some christians I know believe that the bible is more of a guidebook offering guidance for how to live life etc and that reading too in depth or too literally should be discouraged. Others believe that the bible is largely meaningless and yet believe in a christian God regardless, yet follow what they believe is the correct christian way to live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 The commandments also state that the punishment for breaking most of them is death. Is that a good moral code? Which have been adapted and reflect the modern societies which they serve. Get off your high horse. I've not a religious bone in my body but faith, and that's what it is, is an individual matter and your aggressive and frankly bigoted standpoint makes you as bad as any religious zealot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Ummmmm. No. Alright then VFTT; I run a Georgian Coaching Inn among other things and I have an issue with the place being haunted. Now I would be the first to laugh it off but I have the cleaning ladies on my case, live in staff and have even have people leave reviews saying 'nice hotel but it is haunted'. How does science explain that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 It isn't directly hurting them is it? It is denying them medical treatment under the delusion prater to their fictional deity will cure them. And if that decision kills them then yes it is hurting them. Sorry I forgot how much of a pain you can be, I will qualify my statement with unless it hurts people directly or indirectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 What are they then in your interpretation of them? Not my interpretation (I don't want to go in depth about my beliefs on here) but my post above about christians covers quite a few people I know. Many just don't believe that the words contained in the bible are particularly relevant to their christian belief and it is the underlying message along with their individual interpretation of what being a 'christian' means to them which they find important. Believe it or not, not every member of a religion is evil or a nut job who can't wait to indoctrinate their kids into the religion or ram it down people's throats. I think if you knew some of the people I know (from all religions) you would be surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Alright then VFTT; I run a Georgian Coaching Inn among other things and I have an issue with the place being haunted. Now I would be the first to laugh it off but I have the cleaning ladies on my case, live in staff and have even have people leave reviews saying 'nice hotel but it is haunted'. How does science explain that! I don't believe in ghosts either. Nor pixies, fairies (tooth included) and other assorted silly things. However, I accept that others do for a variety off odd (to me) reasons, which are perfectly normal and rational to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 20 May, 2011 Author Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Alright then VFTT; I run a Georgian Coaching Inn among other things and I have an issue with the place being haunted. Now I would be the first to laugh it off but I have the cleaning ladies on my case, live in staff and have even have people leave reviews saying 'nice hotel but it is haunted'. How does science explain that! no such thing as ghosts - pass that onto the cleaners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 I don't believe in ghosts either. Nor pixies, fairies (tooth included) and other assorted silly things. However, I accept that others do for a variety off odd (to me) reasons, which are perfectly normal and rational to them. Well I can promise you I am not making this up. I have a television in one of the rooms that comes on full blast at random times in the night, I have a cleaning lady that moans that amongst other things she was passed in the corridor by a 'body part' and the assistant manager show me phone video footage of his shirts behaving bizarrely when drying in his room. Do I assume this is all bullshot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 20 May, 2011 Author Share Posted 20 May, 2011 dodgy electrics and drafts more likely than ghosts or elves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 And if that decision kills them then yes it is hurting them. Sorry I forgot how much of a pain you can be, I will qualify my statement with unless it hurts people directly or indirectly. But they sincerely believe they are doing what is best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 But they sincerely believe they are doing what is best. That's irrelevant. It's still causing harm so there is clearly a problem with their belief. It's like suicide bombers who believe what they are doing is right. Every walk of life has it's share of nutters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 20 May, 2011 Author Share Posted 20 May, 2011 would there be less without religion? We don't know but I suspect a lot less Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 would there be less without religion? We don't know but I suspect a lot less I suspect you are wrong. Nutters are nutters and would find an outlet with or without religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 20 May, 2011 Author Share Posted 20 May, 2011 IMHO religion can twist weak minds, from over zealous christian upbringings, worst of islam and religiuos cults. I am confident that many of these people who get dragged into extreme behaviour (not just islamic) would not without influence of religion, or failing to understand the inconsistent messages some religions (christianity) give Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revolution saint Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Then I think you are naive to put your faith in science without accepting there could be other alternative explanations. No, it's not really naive to trust what can be proved and is constantly tested by peers. I could call your religious belief naive because it is based not on logic but on faith and your only validation of that is that I can't disprove it. Of course I'm willing to believe there are other alternative explanations but until you can come up with some evidence that they might be true then you can call me a non-believer. Anyway, serious question, why do you believe in God? Honestly. I can answer why I don't with quite logical reasons and, as I say, even then with compelling argument I could change my mind but I'm interested to know why people choose to believe in God (in a religious sense). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revolution saint Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 Personally I have no problem with someone questioning the belief of someone else. It's getting abusive or nasty I don't like just because someone has faith and someone else can't understand why they would. This is me entirely. I don't want to mock, belittle or offend people with faith but I would like to know why they choose that faith (or as I suspect for the majority it was chosen for them). There's been a lot on this thread about people not liking the tone of the atheists agrument and maybe it is a bit belligerant but I haven't heard any defence so far of an organised religion belief system and why you would choose to believe that other than it makes you feel good (which like a drug is an effect of the belief and not the reason for choosing it). I don't think it's wrong to ask that question but I think I'll have a long wait for an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 The most important belief is belief in oneself. Hidden away, the post of the thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 This is me entirely. I don't want to mock, belittle or offend people with faith but I would like to know why they choose that faith (or as I suspect for the majority it was chosen for them). There's been a lot on this thread about people not liking the tone of the atheists agrument and maybe it is a bit belligerant but I haven't heard any defence so far of an organised religion belief system and why you would choose to believe that other than it makes you feel good (which like a drug is an effect of the belief and not the reason for choosing it). I don't think it's wrong to ask that question but I think I'll have a long wait for an answer. I don't think those with a belief have any desire to defend their belief system. Faith for many can come from feelings they have experienced (speaking in tongues for example), experiencing how religion has changed people's lives or any other number of things including I suspect as you say it makes you feel good. My father for example, an extremely intelligent individual is also religious. He believes he has felt God through feelings he has personally experienced over a number of years and also what he has seen in other people, including things which have happened which cannot be explained by medical science. Now I'm not saying I believe him, but I have no doubt that he sincerely believes this to be true. Religion improves his life, improves the lives of his friends and relations by extension (not overtly, he isn't a preacher of any kind) and when people call him intellectually stunted, I find that pretty offensive when I know that is not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 No, it's not really naive to trust what can be proved and is constantly tested by peers. I could call your religious belief naive because it is based not on logic but on faith and your only validation of that is that I can't disprove it. Of course I'm willing to believe there are other alternative explanations but until you can come up with some evidence that they might be true then you can call me a non-believer. Anyway, serious question, why do you believe in God? Honestly. I can answer why I don't with quite logical reasons and, as I say, even then with compelling argument I could change my mind but I'm interested to know why people choose to believe in God (in a religious sense). TBF nothing can definitively be 'proved' but I see what you are trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadgerBadger Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 Define God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 What I find amusing is when I come up with this. I understand your opinion and your beliefs, I respect your right to hold them. Now kindly feck off and stop trying to ram them down my throat. Oh no they get all aggressive. I'm not allowed to understand their opinion or beliefs, I'm supposed to AGREE with them. The REASON so many innocent people get killed today harks back to the Crusades and the forcing of One Opinion onto that of others. It will never end until we all live in mud huts or the planet is turned to dust by Al Qaeda Nukes at 1pm tomorrow US East Coast time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 Define God Oh keep up tried that pages ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 IMHO religion can twist weak minds, from over zealous christian upbringings, worst of islam and religiuos cults. I am confident that many of these people who get dragged into extreme behaviour (not just islamic) would not without influence of religion, or failing to understand the inconsistent messages some religions (christianity) give The idiot kids from the Bible belt trying to travel to Iran as Missionairies is a good case in point. They couldn;t understand why they were arrested and beaten up by the people they were trying to PREACH to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 What I find amusing is when I come up with this. I understand your opinion and your beliefs, I respect your right to hold them. Now kindly feck off and stop trying to ram them down my throat. Oh no they get all aggressive. I'm not allowed to understand their opinion or beliefs, I'm supposed to AGREE with them. The REASON so many innocent people get killed today harks back to the Crusades and the forcing of One Opinion onto that of others. It will never end until we all live in mud huts or the planet is turned to dust by Al Qaeda Nukes at 1pm tomorrow US East Coast time In fairness, that is an accusation you could make on both sides, though reading this thread you would be forgiven for thinking that this was solely the atheist viewpoint... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 Been thinking about this whole 'if God exists why does he let sh!t happen' line of argument, and I have new set of theories.: (1) God really does exist, and the pinnacle of His ( or Her ) creation was in fact the dinsoaurs. However, after 350 million years of that He ( or She ) got bored and moved off to supervise another set of dimensions in the mulitiverse, leaving the Earth to settle into the standard chaos any managed system falls into without a housekeeper to tidy it and keep it clean. (2) Alternatively, in accordance with the theory of relativity, 'time' is relative to the observer., and slows down relatively as you approach the velocity of a photon. As God is 'the way, the truth, and the light', His ( or Her ) time compared to what we observe means that a human lifetime is just a blink of an eye to the celestial deity, so He ( or She ) wouldn't notice wars, floods, etc. (3) God gave us Abraham, Moses, and all the other Old Testament Prophets. He then offered us John the Baptist, and finally His own son. As humanity still didn't seem to 'get the message', ( as Bill & Ted put it - 'Be excellent to each other' ), He ( or She ) has given up trying. As any parent knows, you can only tell the children so many times to stop misbehaving or somebody will get hurt. After a while you just stop trying and watch them fall over, bang their heads, etc. (4) He ( or She ) has simply got bored with the Earth, and so He ( or She ) has moved on to some other galaxy, ( far far away ), and is busy trying an improved recipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsaint Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 (edited) God does exist and he/she/it has a sense of homour. The sh*t (good and bad) going on at Saints over the last five years couldn't have happened naturally. Edited 21 May, 2011 by jjsaint Felt like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint lard Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 God does not exist. Jesus did not exist. When we die we cease to exist.ANYWHERE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 God does not exist. Jesus did not exist. When we die we cease to exist.ANYWHERE. Bit of a waste of a few billion years of evolution then, wasnt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 Bit of a waste of a few billion years of evolution then, wasnt it. Why is that relevant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joensuu Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 Bit of a waste of a few billion years of evolution then, wasnt it. Ha! You speak about evolution as if it has a purpose. If the species still exists, isn't endangered, and is still reproducing regularly, blind evolution must be doing something right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 What I find amusing is when I come up with this. I understand your opinion and your beliefs, I respect your right to hold them. Now kindly feck off and stop trying to ram them down my throat. Oh no they get all aggressive. I'm not allowed to understand their opinion or beliefs, I'm supposed to AGREE with them. The REASON so many innocent people get killed today harks back to the Crusades and the forcing of One Opinion onto that of others. It will never end until we all live in mud huts or the planet is turned to dust by Al Qaeda Nukes at 1pm tomorrow US East Coast time In fairness Phil if you read this thread you will find it is the atheists that are ramming their view down the throats of a few people who are saying that it is probably a bit more complicated than just thumbing through the science books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 In fairness Phil if you read this thread you will find it is the atheists that are ramming their view down the throats of a few people who are saying that it is probably a bit more complicated than just thumbing through the science books. Rubbish. Most are saying believe in what you want, we just reserve the right to think you're a bunch of wierdos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 probably a bit more complicated than just thumbing through the science books That doesn't mean you can plug gaps in existing scientific knowledge with a bearded man sat on a cloud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 As far as I'm concerned you can believe what you want as long as it makes you happy. I believe your avatar must go to the afterlife Asap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latter day saint Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMikey Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 Sometimes I wish there was no such thing as religion - think how much better the world would be without the secular time-bombs like Gaza, Northern Ireland etc. Having been brought up as a Catholic (a position that I no longer hold) I can see why many people attend to religion. It gives people faith, something to fall back on when times are tough, a good set of morals (help thy neighbour etc.) and a bit of belief in life. I think that's where my approval of organised religion stops. I have no problem with people holding religious values, as long as they don't oppress anyone in the process or try and indoctrinate the others to their side of things. Unfortunately, the state of modern religion seems to be exactly that. As for God existing or not, nobody has a definitive answer. That's probably because it's impossible to answer. There are always some uncertainties in life, and this is one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 (edited) In fairness Phil if you read this thread you will find it is the atheists that are ramming their view down the throats of a few people who are saying that it is probably a bit more complicated than just thumbing through the science books. I didn't actually pick sides mate. I was accusing ANYONE who tries to ram ANY belief down my throat because THEIR opinion is the right one. Those first two lines I've used in so many countries. In fact my best result on that was when I found myself late at night in a Provo IRA pub in Manhatten and a bloke at the bar took offence to my accent and started off on one. All I did was turn that argument around and use the Axis of Evil concept from that time. Didn't try and defend being a Brit just asked them a simple question. I ended up leaving about 4 horus later having not paid for a beer & having been the wisest Brit they'd ever met (I was just trying to get out alive TBH) Don't underestimate the Crusades though. That is something while not being anything more than a GCSE pass historian I have spent some time learning about and visiting many of the sites in Istanbul, Lebanon, Jordan & Syria getting to understand. That probably remains one of the most horrific and babaric times in history where a religous doctrine tried to impose itself on another (To Protect the Holy Land v To defend the Holy Land) with both sides so utterly convinced of the Moral Rightness of their cause. Islam has a different clock to us and it doesn't forget (see nutter Gaddafi & his speeches trying to rally the Arab world to his defence) Intense Belief being Imposed by Preachers who are right, really hacks me off - whether Atheists, Jehova's Witnesses at your front door or "that annoying bloke in the Pub or on the forum who never accepts your right to also have an opinion" - Now none of us can think of any of the latter examples surely Me - I have opinions. I come on here and express them. But in 12,670 posts I have on only a very very few occassions ever accued another poster of having an Invalid Opinion. IF I have disagreed I have tried to give some reasons and then stepped away. But the Belligerent my Opinion is right brigade? One of the reasons I left the UK. I respect your opinion now feck off and respect the fact that I am also allowed to have one. is what I meant Edited 21 May, 2011 by dubai_phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohio Saint Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 (edited) Everything exists or does not exist depending on your viewpoint at any given time. (Assuming, of course that time exists) I simply find it a lot easier to ignore whatever extremely unlikely entities exist within other people's imaginations and concentrate on my own imagination. This is why I have no time for talking snakes other than the ones in the Harry Potter books. That is another person's imagination that I can enjoy and will spend a little time over. Edited 21 May, 2011 by Ohio Saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 Everything exists or does not exist depending on your viewpoint at any given time. (Assuming, of course that time exists) I simply find it a lot easier to ignore whatever extremely unlikely entities exist within other people's imaginations and concentrate on my own imagination. This is why I have no time for talking snakes other than the ones in the Harry Potter books. That is another person's imagination that I can enjoy and will spend a little time over. Isn't that something in Quantum Physics? Something only exists if you see it? So if that is the case in Quantum Physics how does "See it in your mind's eye (ie Imangination) work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 21 May, 2011 Share Posted 21 May, 2011 Intellectually stunted by your definition. I might think you were intellectually stunted by not opening up your mind to anything other than the scientific norm. Try questioning that or are you struggling to find the questions to ask? Lol, I'm completely open minded. As an atheist I just don't believe in God but I'm open minded to theories that might explain our existance. It's like a court case or a scientific experiment. You start with a criminal charge or scientific hypothesis and then look for evidence to substantiate the charge or the hypothesis. You balance the evidence and come to a conclusion based on that evidence. If the best evidence for God is a book written c.2,000 years ago that is full of holes then I need more and better evidence before I start to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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