sambosa75 Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 I have no problem with others believing what they want to believe. It is when they try and ram their beliefs down other peoples throats and present them as facts that it becomes all too easy to shoot their arguments down in flames. I think in fairness this is what MLG has done here. Not that he needs me to speak for him. FWIW I dont think a slug goes to heaven when it dies. If a slug doesnt, why should we? In the grand scheme of time we exist for a mere blink of an eye and in my opinion are only here due to a series of events taking place. Evolution is amazing but I dont think its gods work. I think its a series of massive coincidences that feel significant to us but in the grand scheme of time probably isnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Pretty much every religious person "forces" to some extent their children into the same religion. This is why it needs ridiculing - it is dangerous and poisons the whole of society, people don't keep it to themselves no matter how much they say they don't. My parents are religious and at no point did they force me into anything. You are talking sh*t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 I have no problem with others believing what they want to believe. It is when they try and ram their beliefs down other peoples throats and present them as facts that it becomes all too easy to shoot their arguments down in flames. I think in fairness this is what MLG has done here. Not that he needs me to speak for him. FWIW I dont think a slug goes to heaven when it dies. If a slug doesnt, why should we? In the grand scheme of time we exist for a mere blink of an eye and in my opinion are only here due to a series of events taking place. Evolution is amazing but I dont think its gods work. I think its a series of massive coincidences that feel significant to us but in the grand scheme of time probably isnt. In the light of the post above, care to reappraise that? I know how much intolerance (and mind numbing pedantry) MLG has. He has made it abundantly clear in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 My parents are religious and at no point did they force me into anything. You are talking sh*t. In the light of the post above, care to reappraise that? I know how much intolerance (and mind numbing pedantry) MLG has. He has made it abundantly clear in the past. Did I say every parent? No Did I say force? No - I said "to some extent forces" - there is a difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Did I say every parent? No Did I say force? No - I said "to some extent forces" - there is a difference The famous pedantry again. So what exactly do you mean 'to some extent.' I can give you many many examples of religious parents who to no extent have forced their children to be religious. I am sure it happens in some cases but not the 'pretty much' that you suggest. As I said, you are talking sh*t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 So to conclude, the only plausible way for a deity to exist would be if they are incredibly well hidden. In fact, said deity must have gone to great efforts to hide any evidence of their existence. Although the same deity must also be prone to fits of schizophrenia, because at irregular points of time they have engaged in religious advertising campaigns, sending us their son or appearing before young girls in the guise of a horny bull or multi-armed elephant. Of course during these campaigns they must have scattered plenty of real, tangible evidence of their existance, which they must then have studiously rehidden, for some unknown reason. And of course, the reason all this sounds so crazy, is because this deity occupies an alternative reality with different laws of physics, and not in any way to be misinterpreted as being because said deity simply doesn't exist. Again you are looking at this too scientifically. Laws of physics change. As I have said before, life is such a miracle that you cannot just rule out God. Now have you ever done a Ouija board? I have (albeit a long time ago)? there is no way that science explains how this works, and it does. I am totally open to explanations as I am with ghosts. I have encountered people that swear blind that they have experienced ghostly activities; normal people no less (my wife is one). In fact if I think about it, so have I but I have always just assumed there is an explanation for them as you would seem to do. I am a rational person. If you are going to debate the issue of God you should also address the issue of ghosts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Basically, religion itself is not evil or dangerous. Certain people who follow religions are evil and dangerous. Religion works for some people and for others it doesn't. That doesn't make religion itself evil or dangerous. If it makes people feel better or helps them to be a better person then I'm quite happy for people to believe what they want as long as they don't go out committing crimes or hurting others. Whether it is true that children are 'forced' into it by their parents or not, ultimately normal people will grow up, become adults and be able to think and decide for themselves. That will lead to many non religious people discovering religion and deciding it works for them and equally previously religious people deciding it is rubbish and choosing to be atheist. Scientific theory, whilst seemingly logical is just that, theory. We can never definitively know for sure what is going on (look at space FFS we haven't explored even 0.01% of it!) so no one can say with 100% certainty whether there is a god or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 I have no problem with others believing what they want to believe. It is when they try and ram their beliefs down other peoples throats and present them as facts that it becomes all too easy to shoot their arguments down in flames. I think in fairness this is what MLG has done here. Not that he needs me to speak for him. FWIW I dont think a slug goes to heaven when it dies. If a slug doesnt, why should we? In the grand scheme of time we exist for a mere blink of an eye and in my opinion are only here due to a series of events taking place. Evolution is amazing but I dont think its gods work. I think its a series of massive coincidences that feel significant to us but in the grand scheme of time probably isnt. Well I think generally the theme of these thread is that people are ramming down the throats of people that there is not a God. People's faith is generally very important to them and ridicule is pretty offensive. By the way a slug does not love. Oh and Darwin who created the evolution theory was not an atheist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revolution saint Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Well I think generally the theme of these thread is that people are ramming down the throats of people that there is not a God. People's faith is generally very important to them and ridicule is pretty offensive. By the way a slug does not love. Oh and Darwin who created the evolution theory was not an atheist. To be honest now that the debate has moved on from whether a supreme being exists or not, I feel perfectly comfortable in criticising the beliefs in a traditional God. The Christian church has some quite absurd myths that I'll happily ridicule because they are preposterous. Anyone like to defend creationism, or resurrection? I could do with a laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 To be honest now that the debate has moved on from whether a supreme being exists or not, I feel perfectly comfortable in criticising the beliefs in a traditional God. The Christian church has some quite absurd myths that I'll happily ridicule because they are preposterous. Anyone like to defend creationism, or resurrection? I could do with a laugh. I think you can ridicule the ideas but ridiculing someone for believing in something you don't? Even if it makes that persons life better and makes them feel more fulfilled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revolution saint Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 I think you can ridicule the ideas but ridiculing someone for believing in something you don't? Even if it makes that persons life better and makes them feel more fulfilled? Of course I'd feel bad about ridiculing someone who had those beliefs but do you think an adult believing in Father Christmas wouldn't attract the same amount of ridicule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 (edited) The fact that religious people get offended when you question god's existence just proves that deep down they know it's all b@ll@cks. Someone could argue all day that Matt Le Tissier is a cr@p footballer, I wouldn't get offended because I don't just believe he's great, I KNOW he's great. Edited 20 May, 2011 by aintforever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 The fact that religious people get offended when you question god's existence just proves that deep down they know it's all b@ll@cks. Someone could argue all day that Matt Le Tissier is a cr@p footballer, I wouldn't get offended because I don't just believe he's great, I KNOW he's great. I don't think people are getting offended by god's existence being questioned, it is the manner in which it is being done in this thread by certain posters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Of course I'd feel bad about ridiculing someone who had those beliefs but do you think an adult believing in Father Christmas wouldn't attract the same amount of ridicule? If it makes someone better and improves their life (and isn't hurting anyone) then I think someone can believe in whatever they want, however ridiculous it seems to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revolution saint Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 The fact that religious people get offended when you question god's existence just proves that deep down they know it's all b@ll@cks. I think the thing that annoys me most is that those beliefs are almost untouchable in that it's considered rude to question them. I've known some perfectly rational people who are religious but I can never really push them on it - and I really want to. Mostly because I find the beliefs in those myths incomprehensible and I've yet to find a decent answer. Most of the time all I get is, "I just have faith, and I just believe it OK?" and that frustrates me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 I don't think people are getting offended by god's existence being questioned, it is the manner in which it is being done in this thread by certain posters. You can't exactly blame them, if you believe strongly in something you should be able to provide some evidence that it actually exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 You can't exactly blame them, if you believe strongly in something you should be able to provide some evidence that it actually exists. why..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revolution saint Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 If it makes someone better and improves their life (and isn't hurting anyone) then I think someone can believe in whatever they want, however ridiculous it seems to me. Of course they can believe what they want but I'd like to know why? Why choose something that if it wasn't called religion would be laughed at? I realise it makes them feel better, or gives them a purpose but that is the effect of believing and shouldn't be the reason for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 20 May, 2011 Author Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Basically, religion itself is not evil or dangerous. Certain people who follow religions are evil and dangerous. Religion works for some people and for others it doesn't. That doesn't make religion itself evil or dangerous. If it makes people feel better or helps them to be a better person then I'm quite happy for people to believe what they want as long as they don't go out committing crimes or hurting others. Whether it is true that children are 'forced' into it by their parents or not, ultimately normal people will grow up, become adults and be able to think and decide for themselves. That will lead to many non religious people discovering religion and deciding it works for them and equally previously religious people deciding it is rubbish and choosing to be atheist. Scientific theory, whilst seemingly logical is just that, theory. We can never definitively know for sure what is going on (look at space FFS we haven't explored even 0.01% of it!) so no one can say with 100% certainty whether there is a god or not. without religion - good people do good things, bad people do bad things, with religion you get good people doing bad things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Well, my case gets closer to being proven by the hour on this. It is not God or his existance, it is not religion and it's believers or disbelievers that have poisoned the world. It is simply Preachers. Of every shape size belief Belief and subject. There is only one true God. Me. My opinion and my view and I am right - I am The Preacher. They are the true cause of so much hatred hurt harm and distress whether the nutter in the Mosque, the bloke in the Pub or... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 You can't exactly blame them, if you believe strongly in something you should be able to provide some evidence that it actually exists. If someone has faith and chooses to believe in something without evidence, and that in turn makes their life better, why should they be subjected to insults or called idiots? For all you know I could be an atheist, yet I am quite happy for others to believe anything they like as long as it isn't breaking the law or hurting others. Even if I think what they believe is total rubbish, I just don't see the need to go around calling people who believe in God idiots or say hurtful things to them. It's not just about God either, I'm not a labour supporter by any means, I think some of their policies are stupid but I'm not going to call someone who votes for them stupid just because they see things differently to myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 20 May, 2011 Author Share Posted 20 May, 2011 I am surprised that such an intellectual heavyweight has failed to address the spiritual element of believing in God. Why do people who have such a strong faith have such a feeling of cententment. What about the Toronto blessing? which religion is most associated with contentment? Buddhism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 without religion - good people do good things, bad people do bad things, with religion you get good people doing bad things. Well that's a meaningless soundbite. The misuse of religion can cause good people to do bad things, just as the misuse of a lot of things can cause similar results. without propaganda* - good people do good things, bad people do bad things, with propaganda* you get good people doing bad things. *substitute any number of things you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 To be honest now that the debate has moved on from whether a supreme being exists or not, I feel perfectly comfortable in criticising the beliefs in a traditional God. The Christian church has some quite absurd myths that I'll happily ridicule because they are preposterous. Anyone like to defend creationism, or resurrection? I could do with a laugh. I love it! 'A traditional God' - what is he a bit old fashioned? I am not sure I have read that anybody is defending creationalism or resurrection (although I am sure it is possible); I find it a shallow assertion to blindly believe in today's science without thinking out of the box. Are you not capable of thinking without picking up a copy of new science magasine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 The only thing I am defending on here is the individuals right to believe what they want to believe without being given abuse for it. It appears to me that it is the atheists who get riled about this basic right a heck of a lot more than a religious person does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 which religion is most associated with contentment? Buddhism. In my experience most people with a strong faith enjoy a strong sense of contenetment especially in bad times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 And more than anything else, I really want there to be a God because MLG's face would be priceless just before he is sent straight to hell for being a non believer and an intolerable bore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 why..? Because otherwise you might get ridiculed. For example if I went round saying I believed the moon is made of cheese and the Queen is an alien I would be subject to ridicule. Unless of course I could provide proof I was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 The most important belief is belief in oneself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 In my experience most people with a strong faith enjoy a strong sense of contenetment especially in bad times. And even if their religion is utter rubbish, how can something like that be anything other than a good thing? For many on here it seems offensive to them that someone has a faith. Worry about your own lives and let other people get on with theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Whilst I feel that anyone who believes in any God or deity is odd, as it's as bad as believing in fairies, pixies of Father Christmas, I readily accept that my views count as nothing as they have Faith and because of that they believe regardless. I also accept that if it allows them to live a happy and fulfilled life then I, nor anyone else, should belittle them for it. I work with Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus and Christians and all of them accept others religions without prejudice and it's taught me to do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revolution saint Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 I love it! 'A traditional God' - what is he a bit old fashioned? I am not sure I have read that anybody is defending creationalism or resurrection (although I am sure it is possible); I find it a shallow assertion to blindly believe in today's science without thinking out of the box. Are you not capable of thinking without picking up a copy of new science magasine? Of course he's old fashioned - he's bloody ancient apparently. If you believe in the Christian version though why wouldn't you defend Creationism and resurrection - it's the word of god isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 If someone has faith and chooses to believe in something without evidence, and that in turn makes their life better, why should they be subjected to insults or called idiots? For all you know I could be an atheist, yet I am quite happy for others to believe anything they like as long as it isn't breaking the law or hurting others. Even if I think what they believe is total rubbish, I just don't see the need to go around calling people who believe in God idiots or say hurtful things to them. It's not just about God either, I'm not a labour supporter by any means, I think some of their policies are stupid but I'm not going to call someone who votes for them stupid just because they see things differently to myself. I had religion rammed down my throat at school, I have every right to question their beliefs or call them idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 If it makes someone better and improves their life (and isn't hurting anyone) then I think someone can believe in whatever they want, however ridiculous it seems to me. That's a fair point from a UK perspective, where we're guaranteed freedom of religion and effectively largely secular. Religion is almost a la carte here, rarely coming into conflict with society at large. In other places, religion is a much bigger deal. Look at Islam and Judaism, or even the internal divisions within faiths. It's all very well saying people can believe what they want, but the reality is that Belief (capital B, dubai_phil) creates massive problems around the world, whether through the numerous wars that have been waged in the name of faith or the fact that some faith-based societies relegate women to second class citizens. Religion has been many things. It has been an explanation for the temporarily inexplicable, a set of rules for living your life, a means of creating tribes along non-racial lines, a highly effective form of empire after the collapse of the Romans and a brilliant money-spinner. It has never been a particularly good deal for the people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 That's a fair point from a UK perspective, where we're guaranteed freedom of religion and effectively largely secular. Religion is almost a la carte here, rarely coming into conflict with society at large. In other places, religion is a much bigger deal. Look at Islam and Judaism, or even the internal divisions within faiths. It's all very well saying people can believe what they want, but the reality is that Belief (capital B, dubai_phil) creates massive problems around the world, whether through the numerous wars that have been waged in the name of faith or the fact that some faith-based societies relegate women to second class citizens. Religion has been many things. It has been an explanation for the temporarily inexplicable, a set of rules for living your life, a means of creating tribes along non-racial lines, a highly effective form of empire after the collapse of the Romans and a brilliant money-spinner. It has never been a particularly good deal for the people. But that generalises all religion. No doubt there are many examples of the misuse of religion causing conflict and even some religions themselves, but that does not make all religions or the idea of faith and religion evil and a negative thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revolution saint Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Whilst I feel that anyone who believes in any God or deity is odd, as it's as bad as believing in fairies, pixies of Father Christmas, I readily accept that my views count as nothing as they have Faith and because of that they believe regardless. I also accept that if it allows them to live a happy and fulfilled life then I, nor anyone else, should belittle them for it. I work with Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus and Christians and all of them accept others religions without prejudice and it's taught me to do the same. Of course those are good points and there's no reason why they should be belittled but equally they should also be prepared to have those views questioned. I don't have any belief that I wouldn't be prepared to rationally defend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Of course he's old fashioned - he's bloody ancient apparently. If you believe in the Christian version though why wouldn't you defend Creationism and resurrection - it's the word of god isn't it? The question was is their a god. You are cherry picking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 But that generalises all religion. No doubt there are many examples of the misuse of religion causing conflict and even some religions themselves, but that does not make all religions or the idea of faith and religion evil and a negative thing. In this instance, generalisation is appropriate. Numerous large faiths have justified war on religious grounds, each believing their cause was just because of their made up benefactor. Even within one religion, there has been massive strife. Think of the persecution that happened here when the country switched from Protestant to Catholic and back again, or the situation in Northern Ireland, or the Shia death squads going after Sunni Muslims in Iraq following the coalition occupation. Life's pretty simple, we all need the same things. Having arbitrary divisions based on which story someone believes is completely unacceptable in this day and age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revolution saint Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 The question was is their a god. You are cherry picking. No there isn't a god. Now on a side issue do you believe in creationism and the resurrection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 You clearly also fail to grasp the concept of faith. I entirely agree, to me faith is a rediculous concept and I regard those 'of faith' to be intellectually stunted. It's no surprise that religious belief is less and less prevalent the more educated a society becomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Basically, religion itself is not evil or dangerous. So would you say the commandments are not evil or dangerous? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 So would you say the commandments are not evil or dangerous? religion is not dangerous...people are dangerous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 If it makes someone better and improves their life (and isn't hurting anyone) then I think someone can believe in whatever they want, however ridiculous it seems to me. What if they decide that instead of seeking medical treatment for their child they would pray for them to be healed by God/Jesus? A large number of children have died from curable conditions due to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 religion is not dangerous...people are dangerous Are the commandments not part of the organised religion? They are meant to be the word of the the Judeo-Christian God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 20 May, 2011 Author Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Well that's a meaningless soundbite. The misuse of religion can cause good people to do bad things, just as the misuse of a lot of things can cause similar results. without propaganda* - good people do good things, bad people do bad things, with propaganda* you get good people doing bad things. *substitute any number of things you like. think its far from meaningless if you take time to consider it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Are the commandments not part of the organised religion? They are meant to be the word of the the Judeo-Christian God. The commandments have been adapted by all Western societies and form the basis of our legal systems. You can cherry pick plenty of parts of all the main religions to support the view that you have taken. However, you're inability to accept any alternative viewpoint makes you as narrow minded, ignorant and bigoted as those religious folk you purport to dislike so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Has the Toronto blessing healed any amputees? It isn't in any way evidence for God, it is just a mass delusion. They think they will be effected in a certain way, so that is how they behave (in most cases sincerely I'm sure). Doesn't make them any less deluded though. If this is what God does to you, you should hope he doesn't exist... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCeVZ6e2T0E Do you believe in unicorns? If not, why not? There are no spiritual side effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 No there isn't a god. Now on a side issue do you believe in creationism and the resurrection? Then I think you are naive to put your faith in science without accepting there could be other alternative explanations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 I had religion rammed down my throat at school, I have every right to question their beliefs or call them idiots. And so because some people who belonged to a religion gave you a bad experience, it is thus OK to tarnish EVERYONE who has a religious belief? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 think its far from meaningless if you take time to consider it And you considered my response I take it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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