Does god exist?

[scotty]

I haven't got a clue what your point is.

 

That we're still talking about the event, whatever it was, today. You seemed to dismiss its importance, or relevance to this thread.

[Joensuu]

Theres the conundrum. Scientists not so many centuries ago believed that the earth was flat, and that we were at the centre of the universe.

Not at all. This is scientific method in motion. Substantiated theories are retained, flawed ones are dropped. It is highly likely that new theories will continue to replace old ones. However, the probability that a new theory will find evidence of a specific deity is remote.

 

Would you accept the concept or possibility of physical dimensions of which we are unaware and incapable of perceiving? And does our being unaware of them preclude their existence?

As a de facto Atheist, I accept that there is a chance that a deity exists, it's an infinately remote chance (considering our current absence of evidence), but it's a chance nonetheless.

 

Scientists right now are working on quantum physics experiments in the LHC, looking for particles that make up the unknown mass of the universe, dark matter, (which happens to be greater than what we actually know about or have thus far proved to exist.) Science is the way to go, I agree, but to say that we havent demonstrated something up to now and therefore it cant exist is ridiculous. Ive read a few books on quantum physics, and the science in those raises more questions than answers.

 

I'm not precluding the remote chance that there is a deity. I am saying that with the combinded scientific knowledge of all of humanity we currently haven't found a shred of evidence which would suggest there is a deity. There are however good theories to explain why most of human society finds creating and believing in their own deity to be desirable.

 

You sum it up perfectly in your last few words. Questions, not answers. Science provides the former, religion ignores the evidence, and attempts to provide the latter.

Edited 20 May, 2011 by Joensuu

[pap]

Religion is a relic of a previous age, an attempt to explain things that humanity had not yet grasped for itself. Egyptians had a sun god, the Norse pantheon had a god of thunder, while the Greeks and the Romans had gods for pretty much everything going. The monothestic religions just amalgamated all of their explanations into a single deity. It's 2011 now. We have better explanations for why things are they way they are. We don't have all the answers, but many of us have evolved to the point where we're not just going to take stuff on face value. An unanswered question is far better than a made-up answer.

 

It's all about money and control anyway. Serious Christians routinely donate 10% of their income to their church. Why does God need the money? I also have a problem with the Christian concept of forgiveness too. In theory, it means that God loves you no matter what you do. In practice, it allows Christians to act like a pack of scheming fokkers for six days a week, knowing they're going to be absolved of their fokkery on Sunday.

 

The recent earthquake in Japan gave some insight. First, the #prayforjapan tweets were all over Twitter. Really? You're tweeting that now? Surely if God gave a f**k about Japan, the quake wouldn't have happened in the first place. Then you've got the other end of the scale, where some people actually think Japan had it coming for its heathen status.

 

There are people out there that believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, despite all evidence to the contrary - such as moon landings, dinosaur bones, the existence of a whole universe that you think would have been mentioned in the answer to everything.

 

dubai_phil argues that belief is essential. I disagree. Belief is damaging - it stifles debate, justifies murder (even when the book the belief is based on expressly forbids it) and is responsible for ongoing tension and conflict across the world, causing incalculable harm every day.

[Bucks Saint]

I also have a problem with the Christian concept of forgiveness too. In theory, it means that God loves you no matter what you do. In practice, it allows Christians to act like a pack of scheming fokkers for six days a week, knowing they're going to be absolved of their fokkery on Sunday.

 

No, it doesnt "allow" anything of the sort. If anyone behaves like a fokker six days a week, every week, then they are either not looking for forgiveness at all or if they are, their actions will clearly show otherwise. Just claiming to be a Christian does not cut it.

 

The recent earthquake in Japan gave some insight. First, the #prayforjapan tweets were all over Twitter. Really? You're tweeting that now? Surely if God gave a f**k about Japan, the quake wouldn't have happened in the first place. Then you've got the other end of the scale, where some people actually think Japan had it coming for its heathen status.

 

Was it God who built up whole communities in a part of the world where there is a serious risk of earthquakes and tsunamis? Nope it was us. Did he put a Nuclear Power station there as well and then not consider what might happen if there was a quake? Us again.

 

An earlier poster on here complained that if he jumped off a building and then prayed for God to save him, it would not happen. I cant be sure that he would not be saved but if he did hit the ground and die, it would be because his actions were dumb and they have consequences. I am not saying the Japanese folks deserved what happened, of course not, it is a massive tragedy. But a world without consequences to any actions would be mind numbingly robotic and anarchic rolled into one great hideous mess.

Edited 20 May, 2011 by Bucks Saint

[Weston Super Saint]

Was it God who built up whole communities in a part of the world where there is a serious risk of earthquakes and tsunamis? Nope it was us. Did he put a Nuclear Power station there as well and then not consider what might happen if there was a quake? Us again. An earlier poster on here complained that if he jumped off a building and then prayed for God to save him, it would not happen. I cant be sure that he would not be saved but if he did hit the ground and die, it would be because his actions were dumb and they have consequences, end of. I am not saying the Japanese folks deserved what happened, of course not, it is a massive tradegy. But a world without consequences to any actions would be mind numbingly robotic and anarchic rolled into one great hideous mess.

 

Seriously?

 

Apparently 'God' tells us what to do and how to do it, and everything is 'his' [sic] wish.

 

You can't praise God for the good things and absolve him of all responsibility for the bad things just because it suits your agenda

 

He either exists and is therefore the 'supreme being' watching everyone and everything and guiding their every movement, thought and action, or he doesn't exist and we're [humankind] responsible for our own actions and consequences....

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

That we're still talking about the event, whatever it was, today. You seemed to dismiss its importance, or relevance to this thread.

 

You're completely confused. The post I was commenting on said that there were events around the globe all around 2000 years ago. I asked what they were and then explained why seemingly the whole world uses a calander with the birth of Jesus.

 

As an aside the present-day 'locals' in the holy land are overwhelmingly Muslim and Jewish - neither believe Jesus to be the son of God.

[Bucks Saint]

Seriously?

 

Apparently 'God' tells us what to do and how to do it, and everything is 'his' [sic] wish.

 

You can't praise God for the good things and absolve him of all responsibility for the bad things just because it suits your agenda

 

He either exists and is therefore the 'supreme being' watching everyone and everything and guiding their every movement, thought and action, or he doesn't exist and we're [humankind] responsible for our own actions and consequences....

 

Thanks, I did not realise the choice to help me or anyone else with belief was so simple. So he could not have created the universe, planet, atmosphere, environment, people and so on, then allowed people to have independent thought. Lucky that we can freely do and think whatever we want then

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Think DubaiPhil asks a pertinent question - what do the believers on here mean when they say that the God exists - what is that God? I'm an atheist so don't believe in any sort of God but I'm just trying to understand if we have any 'traditional' Christian types on here who go for the whole heaven and hell, God answering prays etc omnipitent type God. Any?

[dubai_phil]

Religion is a relic of a previous age, an attempt to explain things that humanity had not yet grasped for itself. Egyptians had a sun god, the Norse pantheon had a god of thunder, while the Greeks and the Romans had gods for pretty much everything going. The monothestic religions just amalgamated all of their explanations into a single deity. It's 2011 now. We have better explanations for why things are they way they are. We don't have all the answers, but many of us have evolved to the point where we're not just going to take stuff on face value. An unanswered question is far better than a made-up answer.

 

It's all about money and control anyway. Serious Christians routinely donate 10% of their income to their church. Why does God need the money? I also have a problem with the Christian concept of forgiveness too. In theory, it means that God loves you no matter what you do. In practice, it allows Christians to act like a pack of scheming fokkers for six days a week, knowing they're going to be absolved of their fokkery on Sunday.

 

The recent earthquake in Japan gave some insight. First, the #prayforjapan tweets were all over Twitter. Really? You're tweeting that now? Surely if God gave a f**k about Japan, the quake wouldn't have happened in the first place. Then you've got the other end of the scale, where some people actually think Japan had it coming for its heathen status.

 

There are people out there that believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, despite all evidence to the contrary - such as moon landings, dinosaur bones, the existence of a whole universe that you think would have been mentioned in the answer to everything.

 

dubai_phil argues that belief is essential. I disagree. Belief is damaging - it stifles debate, justifies murder (even when the book the belief is based on expressly forbids it) and is responsible for ongoing tension and conflict across the world, causing incalculable harm every day.

 

I argue that Human kind needs belief. I didn't say they needed Belief (with a big B).

 

Example - Everybody needs to believe. I believe I'll have another beer. I have belief that things will get better, I have a belief that life is worth living.

 

Some people live sad and empty and shallow lives, not necessarily from a lack of Belief in any form of Religion but they just don't believe thay can do something with their life or make a difference. Play football - most of us on here have a belief that this season we will do very well. Some on here don't have that and still want to change things. My view is that a person without belief in work, in life, in family, in friends is empty. Some people have that extra one added with the big B

 

Then that big B varies dramatically, some Believe in the New Testament, some in the Old Testament and follow different paths and interpretations. THEN the stifling of debate comes out. Some Believe in Books where murder (in the cause of Jihad IS justified), some Believers in the same faith don't see that same interpretation.

 

So, my argument is that to avoid wallowing in a despair in life, a small b is critical. The big B is the one that often causes the problems. the main difference between the two - I don't try and RAM my beliefs down everyones throat. I try and make a case and then withdraw understanding someone may believe differently.

Edited 20 May, 2011 by dubai_phil

[Joensuu]

Thanks, I did not realise the choice to help me or anyone else with belief was so simple. So he could not have created the universe, planet, atmosphere, environment, people and so on, then allowed people to have independent thought. Lucky that we can freely do and think whatever we want then

 

No, there is strong evidence for the origins of the planet, atmosphere, environment and for people (and hotly debated theories around the orgin for the universe). I assume you have equally strong evidence that these were created by a deity?

 

Thankfully, we can indeed make good use of our independent thought, and not limit ourselves to believing in series of unevinced 'answers'.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

The onus is on you to prove he...

 

1) did exist

2) performed miracles

 

Not on us to prove he didn't, as we aren't the one making the supernatural claims.

 

I doubt you can do either 1) or 2).

 

There are countless stories of "Messiah's" in the middle east, many of which predated Jesus, many of which had similar mythologically and tales surrounding them. Virgin birth, healing etc are not all unique to Jesus! You have just picked one of many "Messiah's" from that time.

 

I am not having to prove anything. You do not understand the concept of faith.

[Saint-scooby]

This is one of the reasons I dont believe

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13468131

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

I am not having to prove anything. You do not understand the concept of faith.

 

You believe because you just do?

[Matthew Le God]

I am not having to prove anything. You do not understand the concept of faith.

 

You do if you want others to follow the same faith.

 

For example...

 

What proof do you have that Christianity is the correct religion that you/will you show your children? Will you just force them to be Christian? Why should they be Christian like yourself rather than any other religion (or none at all) just because you are Christian?

 

If you were born into a different family in a another part of the world or era, you would have the faith of that region in that time. It makes a mockery of the whole faith idea. Many religions dependant largely on what family, region and time you were born into shows that it is human made. If there was one true religion it would be worldwide and the same throughout time.

Edited 20 May, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[pap]

I argue that Human kind needs belief. I didn't say they needed Belief (with a big B).

 

Example - Everybody needs to believe. I believe I'll have another beer. I have belief that things will get better, I have a belief that life is worth living.

 

Some people live sad and empty and shallow lives, not necessarily from a lack of Belief in any form of Religion but they just don't believe thay can do something with their life or make a difference. Play football - most of us on here have a belief that this season we will do very well. Some on here don't have that and still want to change things. My view is that a person without belief in work, in life, in family, in friends is empty. Some people have that extra one added with the big B

 

Then that big B varies dramatically, some Believe in the New Testament, some in the Old Testament and follow different paths and interpretations. THEN the stifling of debate comes out. Some Believe in Books where murder (in the cause of Jihad IS justified), some Believers in the same faith don't see that same interpretation.

 

So, my argument is that to avoid wallowing in a despair in life, a small b is critical. The big B is the one that often causes the problems. the main difference between the two - I don't try and RAM my beliefs down everyones throat. I try and make a case and then withdraw understanding someone may believe differently.

 

Ta for the clarification.

[Lighthouse]

That is spectacular. At the end of the day knowing is knowing. You can't say people are ignorant because they don't believe in something that you yourself admit that it is likely that mankind might never know. That's not ignorance, that's just a ridiculous argument.

 

I think there's a hell of a lot more ignorance on the side of the believers than elsewhere. Spectacular, wrong headed, narrow minded, bigoted, hateful, unforgiving ignorance. If you want ignorance, I suggest you look there.

 

Are people reading my arguments through some kind of e-blender, because everyone seems to be opposed to statements I never made.

 

I'll give it one last try. Simple as I can in nice easy bullet points:

1) if people chose to believe in God, that's there choice. No problem.

2) if people chose NOT to believe in God, again no problem.

3) there is bugger all evidence EITHER WAY to prove OR disprove the existence of God. It is entirely down to belief.

4) based on point 3, you cannot categorically say a God exists.

5) on the same principle you cannot say it doesn't exist.

6) a lack of evidence for something doesn't mean it can't exist. We have no evidence of a God, 50 years ago they had no evidence of the planet Pluto.

 

Using this argument you can never, ever disprove anything. I don't need to prove God doesn't exist, and indeed I couldn't because how could I provide evidence of something if it didn't exist?

 

You can disprove anything if you have evidence it doesn't exist. You have no proof that there is no God, it's just based on the fact that it doesn't fit your incredibly limited knowledge (I'm not being personal, as a species there is a massive amount we do not know about the universe). It is a belief, which everyone is entitled to, but you cannot tell others a God doesn't exist.

[Matthew Le God]

Are people reading my arguments through some kind of e-blender, because everyone seems to be opposed to statements I never made.

 

I'll give it one last try. Simple as I can in nice easy bullet points:

1) if people chose to believe in God, that's there choice. No problem.

2) if people chose NOT to believe in God, again no problem.

3) there is bugger all evidence EITHER WAY to prove OR disprove the existence of God. It is entirely down to belief.

4) based on point 3, you cannot categorically say a God exists.

5) on the same principle you cannot say it doesn't exist.

6) a lack of evidence for something doesn't mean it can't exist. We have no evidence of a God, 50 years ago they had no evidence of the planet Pluto.

 

You can disprove anything if you have evidence it doesn't exist. You have no proof that there is no God, it's just based on the fact that it doesn't fit your incredibly limited knowledge (I'm not being personal, as a species there is a massive amount we do not know about the universe). It is a belief, which everyone is entitled to, but you cannot tell others a God doesn't exist.

 

Point 3), there is plenty of evidence the God of the Bible doesn't exist. What makes you think there isn't?

 

As for point 4), if God really is all powerful he could quite easily show he exists. However he only "reveals" himself throughout time largely to those from Christian families or come into contact with them. He is inept at spreading his message.

 

You points 5) and 6) can be summed up by this...

 

[video=youtube;_AXBvmd-xcw]

Edited 20 May, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[pap]

No, it doesnt "allow" anything of the sort. If anyone behaves like a fokker six days a week, every week, then they are either not looking for forgiveness at all or if they are, their actions will clearly show otherwise. Just claiming to be a Christian does not cut it.

 

Whether you consider them Christians or not doesn't cut it. They believe they are.

 

Was it God who built up whole communities in a part of the world where there is a serious risk of earthquakes and tsunamis? Nope it was us. Did he put a Nuclear Power station there as well and then not consider what might happen if there was a quake? Us again.

 

No, but according to some people, it was God that created the Earth, and therefore God that created fault lines and all the other natural perils that humanity has to contend with. Lots of countries have nuclear reactors. Not all of them are so close to so many shifting seismic plates. If there is an element of intelligent design at work, then why bother creating a planet with so many deficiencies?

 

Apparently, God also created us. So in doing so, he gave us the wit to create nuclear reactors. If we really weren't meant to invent them, surely we wouldn't have been able to in the first place? Must be God's will.

 

If you believe that God created the Earth, and that God created us, then natural disasters are ultimately his fault.

[Bucks Saint]

Are people reading my arguments through some kind of e-blender, because everyone seems to be opposed to statements I never made.

 

I'll give it one last try. Simple as I can in nice easy bullet points:

1) if people chose to believe in God, that's there choice. No problem.

2) if people chose NOT to believe in God, again no problem.

3) there is bugger all evidence EITHER WAY to prove OR disprove the existence of God. It is entirely down to belief.

4) based on point 3, you cannot categorically say a God exists.

5) on the same principle you cannot say it doesn't exist.

6) a lack of evidence for something doesn't mean it can't exist. We have no evidence of a God, 50 years ago they had no evidence of the planet Pluto.

 

 

 

You can disprove anything if you have evidence it doesn't exist. You have no proof that there is no God, it's just based on the fact that it doesn't fit your incredibly limited knowledge (I'm not being personal, as a species there is a massive amount we do not know about the universe). It is a belief, which everyone is entitled to, but you cannot tell others a God doesn't exist.

 

This

[Lighthouse]

The Bible is a 2000 year old story book. Just because it claims to be the word of God, does not make it so. I'm not arguing the case for the man who made the world in 7 days, parted the Red Sea etc. I'm talking about a hypothetical higher being of superior intelligence.

[Matthew Le God]

This

 

Post #119

 

The Bible is a 2000 year old story book. Just because it claims to be the word of God, does not make it so. I'm not arguing the case for the man who made the world in 7 days, parted the Red Sea etc. I'm talking about a hypothetical higher being of superior intelligence.

 

Did you watch the video about the teapot?

 

How intelligent/competent is this God you speak of? He has created an earth which has seen over 99% of all species become extinct? That is just looking at earth, why has he made the rest of the universe lifeless (although it is unlikely to be completely lifeless)?

Edited 20 May, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[Bucks Saint]

Whether you consider them Christians or not doesn't cut it. They believe they are. .

 

It does not matter if they think this, or, what I think, or, not wishing to be rude, what you think, in terms of forgiveness. You said Christianity allowed people to do whatever they want and then they can just be forgiven once a week. I was trying to convey that its how they behave that matters and the type of behaviour you suggested would not get people very far.

 

 

No, but according to some people, it was God that created the Earth, and therefore God that created fault lines and all the other natural perils that humanity has to contend with. Lots of countries have nuclear reactors. Not all of them are so close to so many shifting seismic plates. If there is an element of intelligent design at work, then why bother creating a planet with so many deficiencies?

 

Apparently, God also created us. So in doing so, he gave us the wit to create nuclear reactors. If we really weren't meant to invent them, surely we wouldn't have been able to in the first place? Must be God's will.

 

If you believe that God created the Earth, and that God created us, then natural disasters are ultimately his fault.

 

He gave us the ability to design guns, chemicals, motor cars, carving knives and electricity. Dont think its his fault if people then use them to harm other innocent people.

 

Can I explain all natural disasters? Definitely not. Have I lost someone close to me through one and been very troubled by that? Yes. I dont have all the answers (if only). I dont imagine I will change your view or many others and thats OK. Just trying to give a wider perspective on a few points

[Give it to Ron]

I'm in the minority here

 

But, yes God does exist

 

However, I am not going to grab a soap box and start preaching

 

I'm with you - yes I believe but why would I want to preach to people.

Its their choice - I have my faith they have their own beliefs no way am I good enough to preach to them or try and convince them.

I have seen the power of belief and faith thats good enough for me.

[Matthew Le God]

I have seen the power of belief and faith thats good enough for me.

 

Can you explain what evidence you have seen of this?

[trousers]

[Matthew Le God]

He gave us the ability to design guns, chemicals, motor cars, carving knives and electricity. Dont think its his fault if people then use them to harm other innocent people.

 

Can I explain all natural disasters? Definitely not. Have I lost someone close to me through one and been very troubled by that? Yes. I dont have all the answers (if only). I dont imagine I will change your view or many others and thats OK. Just trying to give a wider perspective on a few points

 

Many Christians use the human eye as an example of intelligent design. Why if the Christian God is such a great designer did he make me (and many others) short or longsighted? If he existed, he is either incompetent at his job or evil. Certainly not competent or good.

[Lighthouse]

Post #119

 

 

 

Did you watch the video about the teapot?

 

How intelligent/competent is this God you speak of? He has created an earth which has seen over 99% of all species become extinct? That is just looking at earth, why has he made the rest of the universe lifeless (although it is unlikely to be completely lifeless)?

 

You seem to be painting 'God' as some kind of careless zookeeper, which is odd and random. So you're implying that if 'God' was real, he would have kept the dodo and some dinosaurs alive? Why?

[Truesaint]

I'm with you - yes I believe but why would I want to preach to people.

Its their choice - I have my faith they have their own beliefs no way am I good enough to preach to them or try and convince them.

I have seen the power of belief and faith thats good enough for me.

 

Im also with you on this one and agree completly. Some on here may like to remember though that without a belief in God our wonderful football club would not exist!

[trousers]

Can you explain what evidence you have seen of this?

 

Ok.....I'll join in, but only becuase it looks like jolly good fun....

 

My "try and catch you out but will no doubt fail miserably" question is:

 

"Do you BELIEVE there was nothing before the 'big bang' or do you BELIEVE there was something? Please provide evidence for what you BELIEVE to be the correct answer"

 

Thanks

 

(p.s. if you're logical, like my good self of course, you'll answer: "I don't know, therefore I am agnostic on the subject")

[Matthew Le God]

You seem to be painting 'God' as some kind of careless zookeeper, which is odd and random. So you're implying that if 'God' was real, he would have kept the dodo and some dinosaurs alive? Why?

 

More interesting to turn that question around... Why did he want them dead?

[Matthew Le God]

Ok.....I'll join in, but only becuase it looks like jolly good fun....

 

My "try and catch you out but will no doubt fail miserably" question is:

 

"Do you BELIEVE there was nothing before the 'big bang' or do you BELIEVE there was something? Please provide evidence for what you BELIEVE to be the correct answer"

 

Thanks

 

(p.s. if you're logical, like my good self of course, you'll answer: "I don't know, therefore I am agnostic on the subject")

 

I don't know. But to answer it with God to plug the gap in knowledge just starts an infinite regression.

[Bucks Saint]

Many Christians use the human eye as an example of intelligent design. Why if the Christian God is such a great designer did he make me (and many others) short or longsighted? If he existed, he is either incompetent at his job or evil. Certainly not competent or good.

 

I did not say he is a great designer. And I dont know (the clue was in the post you responded to - I dont have all the answers). I think humans are bloody amazing all the same

[trousers]

I don't know. But to answer it with God to plug the gap in knowledge just starts an infinite regression.

 

Indeed. I'm already looking to next year's thread on the same subject.

[Weston Super Saint]

You seem to be painting 'God' as some kind of careless zookeeper, which is odd and random. So you're implying that if 'God' was real, he would have kept the dodo and some dinosaurs alive? Why?

 

Since there is no mention in the bible of dinosaurs, the obvious, nay correct, conclusion to be drawn by believers who take the literal word of the bible as gospel, is that dinosaurs did not exist, despite the evidence to the contrary!

 

How could such an important part of the planet's history have been omitted from the bible?

[trousers]

I think humans are bloody amazing all the same

 

Hmmm.....I was with you before that comment.... ;-)

 

[Matthew Le God]

I did not say he is a great designer. And I dont know (the clue was in the post you responded to - I dont have all the answers).

 

Does an inept designer deserve praise from his creations?

 

I think humans are bloody amazing all the same

 

That is quite a generalisation. No human is the same, many have been created with far weaker "designs" than others, the overwhelming majority of our species throughout time haven't seen their 5th birthday. Some design...!

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

You believe because you just do?

 

You clearly also fail to grasp the concept of faith.

 

I have a lot of questions like Thomas but am certainly not going restrict myself to the boundaries of what scientists believe at this point in time. In thirty years time they will no doubt have expanded on their theories which for all you no may make it more likely there is a God. Life is a miracle and that is why I believe there is a God. I also respect Christian values even if I am not sure I will be in the mix on judgement day.

[trousers]

Since there is no mention in the bible of dinosaurs, the obvious, nay correct, conclusion to be drawn by believers who take the literal word of the bible as gospel, is that dinosaurs did not exist, despite the evidence to the contrary!

 

How could such an important part of the planet's history have been omitted from the bible?

 

The dinosaurs never existed. God invented dinosaur bones and hid them in the ground c.3,482 BC to hoodwink archeaologists in the future. Do keep up! :-)

[Lighthouse]

More interesting to turn that question around... Why did he want them dead?

 

Haven't a clue. None of this is proof as to the existence of 'God' however.

[Bucks Saint]

Hmmm.....I was with you before that comment.... ;-)

 

 

He is amazing. Amazingly...colourful...noisy..... you can fill in the rest

[Matthew Le God]

Haven't a clue. None of this is proof as to the existence of 'God' however.

 

You haven't responded to the celestial teapot argument that was used to counter your earlier points.

[trousers]

You haven't responded to the celestial teapot argument that was used to counter your earlier points.

 

Stop preaching to people to do what you want them to do....oh.... ;-))

[scotty]

Not at all. This is scientific method in motion. Substantiated theories are retained, flawed ones are dropped. It is highly likely that new theories will continue to replace old ones. However, the probability that a new theory will find evidence of a specific deity is remote.

 

 

As a de facto Atheist, I accept that there is a chance that a deity exists, it's an infinately remote chance (considering our current absence of evidence), but it's a chance nonetheless.

 

 

 

I'm not precluding the remote chance that there is a deity. I am saying that with the combinded scientific knowledge of all of humanity we currently haven't found a shred of evidence which would suggest there is a deity. There are however good theories to explain why most of human society finds creating and believing in their own deity to be desirable.

 

You sum it up perfectly in your last few words. Questions, not answers. Science provides the former, religion ignores the evidence, and attempts to provide the latter.

 

When I mentioned the possibility of other dimensions, I meant it in a scientific sense, not a theological one. Its possible for example that there are other physical dimensions in which our concepts of space, time and distance are utterly irrelevant, hence the comparison I made earlier about fish in a bowl being unable to conceptualise anything outside of it. I have no idea whether or not God exists, I assume in twenty or thirty years time I'll find out one way or the other. In the meantime it seems pointless to dismiss the people who've gone before us and obviously did give some credence to the concept simply on the basis that science has yet to prove or disprove it.

[Matthew Le God]

Life is a miracle and that is why I believe there is a God.

 

Is that the sole reason you believe in God? Why is it a miracle? Yes, the odds are tiny, but tiny odds doesn't mean impossible. The chances of winning the lottery are small, but someone often does. If you weren't born you wouldn't be able to say the odds are tiny.

 

I also respect Christian values even if I am not sure I will be in the mix on judgement day.

 

So you are a Christian, but pick and choose which bits you like and which bits you don't?

 

Why are you a "Christian" and not one of the thousands of other religions that have been created throughout human history al around the world? Is it because your parents brought you up Christian?

[pap]

It does not matter if they think this, or, what I think, or, not wishing to be rude, what you think, in terms of forgiveness. You said Christianity allowed people to do whatever they want and then they can just be forgiven once a week. I was trying to convey that its how they behave that matters and the type of behaviour you suggested would not get people very far.

 

I clearly delineated between theory and practice when making the comment about the power of instant absolution. You'll have to forgive me for being rude, but doing unscrupulous things can be very effective for personal progression. Your assertion that dirty deeds "won't people get very far" is largely predicated on them publicly announcing their misdeeds as they commit them.

 

He gave us the ability to design guns, chemicals, motor cars, carving knives and electricity. Dont think its his fault if people then use them to harm other innocent people.

 

Can I explain all natural disasters? Definitely not. Have I lost someone close to me through one and been very troubled by that? Yes. I dont have all the answers (if only). I dont imagine I will change your view or many others and thats OK. Just trying to give a wider perspective on a few points

 

I am in total agreement that humanity is responsible for its own situation, and can sympathise with your search for answers. But with religion, all the big answers are provided to you on a plate, ridiculous and incontrovertible, leaving you only to wonder at the mysterious ways of an imaginary skylord.

[Matthew Le God]

Stop preaching to people to do what you want them to do....oh.... ;-))

 

That isn't preaching, he ignored an important counter argument to one of his points (possibly because he couldn't give an answer that sustained his viewpoint) and thus more convenient to ignore it and discuss another point.

[Bucks Saint]

Is that the sole reason you believe in God? Why is it a miracle? Yes, the odds are tiny, but tiny odds doesn't mean impossible. The chances of winning the lottery are small, but someone often does. If you weren't born you wouldn't be able to say the odds are tiny.

 

 

 

So you are a Christian, but pick and choose which bits you like and which bits you don't?

 

Why are you a "Christian" and not one of the thousands of other religions that have been created throughout human history al around the world? Is it because your parents brought you up Christian?

 

Why are trying way harder than anyone else on here to convince people of your views? Did Richard Dawkins steal your idea ?

[Lighthouse]

You haven't responded to the celestial teapot argument that was used to counter your earlier points.

 

The difference being that it is perfectly plausible that there is an intelligent entity controlling the universe. There is however, no way a man made object could be orbiting the sun unless we put it there. Given that we haven't (to the best of my knowledge anyway) then it is impossible for a teapot to be orbitting the sun. This is unless after the big bang, some atoms aligned them selves perfectly to form a teapot, although that is around a 1 in 10^26 (1 in 100 million million million million) chance by my reckoing.

[Bucks Saint]

I clearly delineated between theory and practice when making the comment about the power of instant absolution. You'll have to forgive me for being rude, but doing unscrupulous things can be very effective for personal progression. Your assertion that dirty deeds "won't people get very far" is largely predicated on them publicly announcing their misdeeds as they commit them. .

 

Agreed. I am responding to your assertion about how Christian forgiveness works. I am not making any excuses for unscrupulous behavior. When I said "wont get people very far" I meant purely in terms of forgiveness - your orginal point. Sadly you are right re personal progression for such people.

[pap]

You clearly also fail to grasp the concept of faith.

 

I have a lot of questions like Thomas but am certainly not going restrict myself to the boundaries of what scientists believe at this point in time. In thirty years time they will no doubt have expanded on their theories which for all you no may make it more likely there is a God. Life is a miracle and that is why I believe there is a God. I also respect Christian values even if I am not sure I will be in the mix on judgement day.

 

Who's restricting themselves to what scientists believe at this point in time? The whole point of science to to gain greater understanding of our universe. I doubt anyone on the planet believes that science has cracked it. We still have a lot to learn about everything.

 

Judgement day, eh? That's tomorrow, apparently.