Sheaf Saint Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 If god exists then why doesn't he reveal himself to us? An age old question for which many religious apologists will offer numerous baseless arguments. The Christians would say that he already did reveal himself to us in the form of Jesus. So let's just think about this for a second... We have an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent being who created all things, and he chooses to prove his existence to mankind by taking the form of a man. Yeah, right. The Muslims would argue that god proved his existence in the revelation that he gave to the prophet Mohammed. Again, if we can just dissect this... It is the belief of most Muslims that the Koran is the literal and unalterable word of god, and that it loses all meaning when translated into any language other than Arabic. So why then did he present this revelation to an illiterate who had no means of writing it down, and exclude the large majority of the population of the planet from understanding it? And why do the Koran and the Hadiths bear more than a passing resemblance to all other religious texts which went before them? If god does exist then he's a bit of a git really, because more people throughout the ages have been killed in his name than for any other cause, and he just sits there in the shadows letting it happen. Doesn't sound like an all-loving creator to me. The whole concept of god was dreamed up by people who had zero understanding of how the universe works as a way of explaining the unexplained, and the idea of organised religion was seized upon by those in power as a means to control the populace and maintain the status quo. It has no place in a modern, scientifically enlightened world and I find it amazing that governments around the world still pander to these cults (which is essentially what all religions are). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revolution saint Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 I agree. That is half of my POV. However I think people who say he/she/it 100% doesn't exist are equally at fault. I don't have a problem with belief systems. If people do or do not believe in God is up to them, but you cannot know either way. Ah but the thing is man invented god, or at least someone came up with the idea, so the burden of proof is on the person making the original thesis. No one denied God before he was thought of did they, because of course they couldn't. So it has to be up to the person who proposed that thesis to prove it, otherwise it's just a theory without evidence. And that's what God is - a theory without evidence. The great miracle is that anyone continues to believe in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 19 May, 2011 Author Share Posted 19 May, 2011 Hmmm. Penchant for data. Opens a thread with this post. OMG we have a celebrity Saints fan who posts on here. You're Stephen Hawking aren't you? Wow http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2011/05/brazil-grants-r.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 Oh and one more thing... Why do people talk about 'intelligent design', when there is clearly nothing intelligent about it? If god created mankind as we know it today, as opposed to the idea of evolution, then why do we have appendices and why do men have nipples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 So you're saying that nothing can possibly be true unless it can be explained by mankind's extremely limited understanding of the universe? And my 'fact' behind this is the alternative being a trillion to 1 shot that the universe "just happened". I think you're the one who doesn't understand this (as well as being needlessly patronising). There is only one single truth, whether or not we can explain or understand it. Gravity existed before Newton conceptualised it, the Earth orbited the Sun at the same time that consensus believed the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 Ah but the thing is man invented god, or at least someone came up with the idea, so the burden of proof is on the person making the original thesis. No one denied God before he was thought of did they, because of course they couldn't. So it has to be up to the person who proposed that thesis to prove it, otherwise it's just a theory without evidence. And that's what God is - a theory without evidence. The great miracle is that anyone continues to believe in it. I seem to be fighting a losing battle trying to make this point. I am not arguing the case for God the religious entity who made the world in 7 days etc. etc. I am saying there COULD well be an intelligent entity behind the bigger questions in the universe. I can't prove it, hence I am not saying this is the case. However by the same logic you cannot categorically say there is no intelligent entity. You're implying that because you can't prove something, it cannot be true. That's ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 If god exists then why doesn't he reveal himself to us? An age old question for which many religious apologists will offer numerous baseless arguments. I am convinced that something pretty mindblowing happened around 2000 years ago, which is the blink of an eye in terms of human evolution. The fact that we refer nowadays to a year based on those events seems quite compelling to me. On another note, these debates invariably assume that we are at the absolute top of the pyramid in terms of evolution and understanding. Why would we assume that? Try explaining to your dog why you have to go to work to earn the money to buy his food and pay his vets bills, he wont have the capacity to understand it no matter how long you waste. And if you happen to keep an aquarium, those fish are never going to accept the possibility of another non-aqueous dimension, because even if they worked out how to get out of the tank, they wouldnt survive in it. I'm not religious, but I dont find it beyond the bounds of possibility that the religious explosion around 1AD may have been an attempt by someone/something to contact us and put our existence into a context we were capable of comprehending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 I seem to be fighting a losing battle trying to make this point. I am not arguing the case for God the religious entity who made the world in 7 days etc. etc. I am saying there COULD well be an intelligent entity behind the bigger questions in the universe. I can't prove it, hence I am not saying this is the case. However by the same logic you cannot categorically say there is no intelligent entity. You're implying that because you can't prove something, it cannot be true. That's ridiculous. How intelligent is he? 99% of all species that have ever existed on Earth are now extinct, the majority of the universe in inhabitable. If God does exist, he isn't intelligent, he is incompetent and definitely doesn't care about trivial human matters. He didn't design the human eye very well did he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 I am convinced that something pretty mindblowing happened around 2000 years ago, which is the blink of an eye in terms of human evolution. The fact that we refer nowadays to a year based on those events seems quite compelling to me. On another note, these debates invariably assume that we are at the absolute top of the pyramid in terms of evolution and understanding. Why would we assume that? Try explaining to your dog why you have to go to work to earn the money to buy his food and pay his vets bills, he wont have the capacity to understand it no matter how long you waste. And if you happen to keep an aquarium, those fish are never going to accept the possibility of another non-aqueous dimension, because even if they worked out how to get out of the tank, they wouldnt survive in it. I'm not religious, but I dont find it beyond the bounds of possibility that the religious explosion around 1AD may have been an attempt by someone/something to contact us and put our existence into a context we were capable of comprehending. So after 100,000 years of modern man he decided that the best way to spread the message was to send his son to a remote part of the illiterate Middle East in a time when communication was terrible? The story of Jesus took 1,000 years to reach China, 1,5000 years to reach the Americas and 1,700 years to reach Australia. Not the most effective way of spreading his word is it? If there is an "all powerful God", he is inept at his job. Hence why else would they be thousands of religions recorded in human history? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 (edited) So how would you go about disproving the existance of Jesus? The onus is on you to prove he... 1) did exist 2) performed miracles Not on us to prove he didn't, as we aren't the one making the supernatural claims. I doubt you can do either 1) or 2). There are countless stories of "Messiah's" in the middle east, many of which predated Jesus, many of which had similar mythologically and tales surrounding them. Virgin birth, healing etc are not all unique to Jesus! You have just picked one of many "Messiah's" from that time. Edited 19 May, 2011 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 I've always been pretty sceptical tbh, but have a read through "the goldilocks enigma" by paul davies, then consider the sheer, overwhelming mathematical improbability of us existing at all unless it had been planned that way. The figures are jawdropping. But then with the universe potentially being infinite, then us existing is a mathematical certainty. Infinite monkeys+ infinite typewriters+ infinite amount of time = the entire works of Shakespeare, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revolution saint Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 I seem to be fighting a losing battle trying to make this point. I am not arguing the case for God the religious entity who made the world in 7 days etc. etc. I am saying there COULD well be an intelligent entity behind the bigger questions in the universe. I can't prove it, hence I am not saying this is the case. However by the same logic you cannot categorically say there is no intelligent entity. You're implying that because you can't prove something, it cannot be true. That's ridiculous. No, you posed the question that God exists - I didn't. It's up to you to prove he does, and there is no evidence of that. I can't prove a negative because it's impossible therefore it must be up to you to prove that God is possible. What you got? Mere possibility? Not good enough - give me something more plausible than that. I do realise that you're only positing the possibility of the existence of God rather than saying he does but by following that argument you will never find an answer because there will always be a possibility however ridiculous, preposterous and lacking in evidence. No, it's up to you to show me something to prove even the possibility of his existence and there really isn't anything is there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 (edited) I am convinced that something pretty mindblowing happened around 2000 years ago, which is the blink of an eye in terms of human evolution. The fact that we refer nowadays to a year based on those events seems quite compelling to me. On another note, these debates invariably assume that we are at the absolute top of the pyramid in terms of evolution and understanding. Why would we assume that? Try explaining to your dog why you have to go to work to earn the money to buy his food and pay his vets bills, he wont have the capacity to understand it no matter how long you waste. And if you happen to keep an aquarium, those fish are never going to accept the possibility of another non-aqueous dimension, because even if they worked out how to get out of the tank, they wouldnt survive in it. I'm not religious, but I dont find it beyond the bounds of possibility that the religious explosion around 1AD may have been an attempt by someone/something to contact us and put our existence into a context we were capable of comprehending. I think the "mindblowing" event was just humankind developing a conscience. We've evolved from monkeys, 1000's of years ago all that went through our heads was "must eat, must sh@g, must sh!t, must sleep". We reached a point where we developed enough to wonder why we are here and think about what is right and wrong - religion was born. The more we develop the more religion will be seen as laughable, it's no coincidence that the most religious parts of the world are the most backward. Edited 19 May, 2011 by aintforever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 So after 100,000 years of modern man he decided that the best way to spread the message was to send his son to a remote part of the illiterate Middle East in a time when communication was terrible? The story of Jesus took 1,000 years to reach China, 1,5000 years to reach the Americas and 1,700 years to reach Australia. Not the most effective way of spreading his word is it? If there is an "all powerful God", he is inept at his job. Hence why else would they be thousands of religions recorded in human history? Youre missing the point. Around that time, and at slightly different times around the globe, something happened that subsequently radically altered the thinking and behaviour of the people on those continents. We even use that point as the primary reference in our calendar. I dont believe or disbelieve in the concept of a "God", I'm saying that we couldnt recognise it and therefore shouldnt dismiss the possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 (edited) Youre missing the point. Around that time, and at slightly different times around the globe, something happened that subsequently radically altered the thinking and behaviour of the people on those continents. We even use that point as the primary reference in our calendar. You have completely lost me now. So what if the world uses Jesus' birthdate for the calendar? How is that evidence for the existence of God? There have been thousands of recorded Gods throughout human history, not just in the Middle East 2,000 years ago and many other calendars. Edited 19 May, 2011 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revolution saint Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 Youre missing the point. Around that time, and at slightly different times around the globe, something happened that subsequently radically altered the thinking and behaviour of the people on those continents. We even use that point as the primary reference in our calendar. I dont believe or disbelieve in the concept of a "God", I'm saying that we couldnt recognise it and therefore shouldnt dismiss the possibility. A cult that spawned a myth and eventually a best seller, that's all that happened 2000 years ago, nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 How intelligent is he? 99% of all species that have ever existed on Earth are now extinct, the majority of the universe in inhabitable. If God does exist, he isn't intelligent, he is incompetent and definitely doesn't care about trivial human matters. He didn't design the human eye very well did he? Here we go again assuming God is the religious entity we read about in the Bible. Why would it want life in the universe? Why would it give 2 sh*ts what humans feel? What makes you think it "designed" the human eye when this has already been proven to have been part of evolution? The Bible is a bit like me writing a book about you and saying, "he's 14ft tall, has green and purple striped skin and can p*ss marmalade". None of it is true, but it doesn't mean you don't exist, just that people have inaccurate perceptions of what you are. No, you posed the question that God exists - I didn't. It's up to you to prove he does, and there is no evidence of that. I can't prove a negative because it's impossible therefore it must be up to you to prove that God is possible. What you got? Mere possibility? Not good enough - give me something more plausible than that. I do realise that you're only positing the possibility of the existence of God rather than saying he does but by following that argument you will never find an answer because there will always be a possibility however ridiculous, preposterous and lacking in evidence. No, it's up to you to show me something to prove even the possibility of his existence and there really isn't anything is there? Hence it's is possible or even likely that mankind will never know. Doesn't mean it can't be true, it just means we're ignorant. You seem to be using this ignorance as proof that a 'God' can't exist. To put my POV accross in its simplest form: An intelligent higher power (a 'God' if you will) could exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 I am convinced that something pretty mindblowing happened around 2000 years ago, which is the blink of an eye in terms of human evolution. The fact that we refer nowadays to a year based on those events seems quite compelling to me. On another note, these debates invariably assume that we are at the absolute top of the pyramid in terms of evolution and understanding. Why would we assume that? Try explaining to your dog why you have to go to work to earn the money to buy his food and pay his vets bills, he wont have the capacity to understand it no matter how long you waste. And if you happen to keep an aquarium, those fish are never going to accept the possibility of another non-aqueous dimension, because even if they worked out how to get out of the tank, they wouldnt survive in it. I'm not religious, but I dont find it beyond the bounds of possibility that the religious explosion around 1AD may have been an attempt by someone/something to contact us and put our existence into a context we were capable of comprehending. Eloquently put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 An interesting read on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revolution saint Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Here we go again assuming God is the religious entity we read about in the Bible. Why would it want life in the universe? Why would it give 2 sh*ts what humans feel? What makes you think it "designed" the human eye when this has already been proven to have been part of evolution? The Bible is a bit like me writing a book about you and saying, "he's 14ft tall, has green and purple striped skin and can p*ss marmalade". None of it is true, but it doesn't mean you don't exist, just that people have inaccurate perceptions of what you are. Hence it's is possible or even likely that mankind will never know. Doesn't mean it can't be true, it just means we're ignorant. You seem to be using this ignorance as proof that a 'God' can't exist. To put my POV accross in its simplest form: An intelligent higher power (a 'God' if you will) could exist. Using this argument you can never, ever disprove anything. I don't need to prove God doesn't exist, and indeed I couldn't because how could I provide evidence of something if it didn't exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Oh and one more thing... Why do people talk about 'intelligent design', when there is clearly nothing intelligent about it? If god created mankind as we know it today, as opposed to the idea of evolution, then why do we have appendices and why do men have nipples? As we all know, God botherers come to all our front doors. Invite them in, ask if they believe in the bible, then ask if they believe in incest. Then discuss Adam and Eve as the beginning of all mankind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Youre missing the point. Around that time, and at slightly different times around the globe, something happened that subsequently radically altered the thinking and behaviour of the people on those continents. We even use that point as the primary reference in our calendar. I dont believe or disbelieve in the concept of a "God", I'm saying that we couldnt recognise it and therefore shouldnt dismiss the possibility. What were these things that happened 'around the globe'? The reason the supposed birth of Jesus is used as a reference point is because the Romans eventually become Christian and the Catholic church which evolved out of the Roman Empire became dominant in Europe. If the West hadn't have been so dominant across the world over the last few hundred years then it is highly plausible that we'd be using a completely different calendar based upon the Chinese, Islamic or Hindu calendars - and they wouldn't be using the birth of Jesus as a starting point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 LOL at all the experts on evolution and human culture on here! I am truly amazed at how much you all know. There seems to be only one truth - we are ALL believers. Some believe there is a God and some believe there is not. Even Darwin does not suggest there is no God, he observed that things change, life forms change. The Bible, as far as I am aware, does not deny that life forms evolve and change. There is no answer to the original posters question. Each individual has to make a choice of whether to believe in (a) God or not and, if they decide to believe, follow the course that it takes them on; or, if they choose not to believe, to go their own way. It is a big choice however and one that should not be taken lightly. Consider with a balanced open mind not one sullied by modernist cultures. For every Steven Hawkins there are equally intelligent people who take a contrary view. If you want to apply solely human logic to this then there are lots of streams of thought you can follow. For example - in this country there is a Christian church (many denominations but one church). Why? The Christian religion was brought to this country by missionaries who risked their lives to do so. They did it because they met with people who changed their lives by what they had to say. The legend some of you seem think was twisted, changed and fantasied was one that people were prepared to die for - wise men or fools? People were put to death in the early part of the first century for admitting to being a follower of Christ but still they were prepared to do so and still the Christian religion could not be extinguished, it grew and continues to grow today. So logic says if people were prepared to die for a belief then they must have truly believed. The problem is that human logic does not explain everything, there is much illogical about life, the universe and everything. There is still much to be discovered and proved. There are those who believe that the world was created by God, others believe it came about by a big bang - could this actually be one and the same thing? If you look for the existence of a god solely in creation then you still have to face up the fact that something from somewhere had to be present to 'bang'. Physicists are still struggling to explain the big bang (hence the particle collider under the Alps) and have not started on what went before the bang yet - plenty keep them going for a year or two yet I think. I agree, the OP is an intriguing question. I worry some of you dismiss it too lightly. Please remember NOTHING has been proved either way, we are all believers. Just choosing to rubbish ideas of a god because a presence has not been proved may just be backing the wrong horse; they may not of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Hence it's is possible or even likely that mankind will never know. Doesn't mean it can't be true, it just means we're ignorant. You seem to be using this ignorance as proof that a 'God' can't exist. To put my POV accross in its simplest form: An intelligent higher power (a 'God' if you will) could exist. That is spectacular. At the end of the day knowing is knowing. You can't say people are ignorant because they don't believe in something that you yourself admit that it is likely that mankind might never know. That's not ignorance, that's just a ridiculous argument. I think there's a hell of a lot more ignorance on the side of the believers than elsewhere. Spectacular, wrong headed, narrow minded, bigoted, hateful, unforgiving ignorance. If you want ignorance, I suggest you look there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 The fact that we are here ...... Are we ? How do you KNOW you exist ? How do you KNOW I exist ? You, and anybody else that apparently posts on this forum, may just be a figment of an overactive imagination. Also, if God exists, explain Skatesmouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 LOL at all the experts on evolution and human culture on here! I am truly amazed at how much you all know. There seems to be only one truth - we are ALL believers. Some believe there is a God and some believe there is not. Even Darwin does not suggest there is no God, he observed that things change, life forms change. The Bible, as far as I am aware, does not deny that life forms evolve and change. There is no answer to the original posters question. Each individual has to make a choice of whether to believe in (a) God or not and, if they decide to believe, follow the course that it takes them on; or, if they choose not to believe, to go their own way. It is a big choice however and one that should not be taken lightly. Consider with a balanced open mind not one sullied by modernist cultures. For every Steven Hawkins there are equally intelligent people who take a contrary view. If you want to apply solely human logic to this then there are lots of streams of thought you can follow. For example - in this country there is a Christian church (many denominations but one church). Why? The Christian religion was brought to this country by missionaries who risked their lives to do so. They did it because they met with people who changed their lives by what they had to say. The legend some of you seem think was twisted, changed and fantasied was one that people were prepared to die for - wise men or fools? People were put to death in the early part of the first century for admitting to being a follower of Christ but still they were prepared to do so and still the Christian religion could not be extinguished, it grew and continues to grow today. So logic says if people were prepared to die for a belief then they must have truly believed. The problem is that human logic does not explain everything, there is much illogical about life, the universe and everything. There is still much to be discovered and proved. There are those who believe that the world was created by God, others believe it came about by a big bang - could this actually be one and the same thing? If you look for the existence of a god solely in creation then you still have to face up the fact that something from somewhere had to be present to 'bang'. Physicists are still struggling to explain the big bang (hence the particle collider under the Alps) and have not started on what went before the bang yet - plenty keep them going for a year or two yet I think. I agree, the OP is an intriguing question. I worry some of you dismiss it too lightly. Please remember NOTHING has been proved either way, we are all believers. Just choosing to rubbish ideas of a god because a presence has not been proved may just be backing the wrong horse; they may not of course! Sorry, you fell at the first hurdle. It's frankly not true to say "nothing has been proved either way". There is no "either way". Those who say there is no god have nothing, whatsoever, to prove. Nothing. The God/No God arguments are not of equal merit. Evidence of people dying for their religion, or of missionaries does not prove anything by the way, it just proves believers. The people that blew up the tubes and buses in London were believers too. Not actually prove of anything. As for the illogical parts of life, the scientists are working on it. The priesthood had their go for a couple of thousand years but world has moved on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 the scientists are working on it.......... God will let the scientists 'discover' exactly what He wants them to discover ! The moment you prove God exists you destroy religion, faith, and society. You cannot, however, ever definitively disprove a deity - the argument simply shifts to He ( or She ) does not want to be found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Sorry, you fell at the first hurdle. It's frankly not true to say "nothing has been proved either way". There is no "either way". Those who say there is no god have nothing, whatsoever, to prove. Nothing. The God/No God arguments are not of equal merit. Evidence of people dying for their religion, or of missionaries does not prove anything by the way, it just proves believers. The people that blew up the tubes and buses in London were believers too. Not actually prove of anything. As for the illogical parts of life, the scientists are working on it. The priesthood had their go for a couple of thousand years but world has moved on. Sorry CB I can't accept that you have the right to say "I believe there is no God because it has not been proved that God exists" without someone else having the right to say "I believe there is a God because it has never been proved that there is no God". There is sufficient evidence for many people that there is a God and they have a right to that belief and, unless it is proved otherwise, they will continue to hold on to that belief. In the meantime, those who believe there is no God will probably hold on to that view until the existence of God is proved! No one is absolutely sure, we are all believers. People died for their beliefs, true. But why? I can't under stand why eleven terrified, defeated men hiding from the Roman authorities would suddenly become preachers of the news that Jesus has risen from death. What did they have to gain? They had everything to lose and many lost their life - for what purpose if they did not truly believe what they had seen? No smoke without fire! Something significant happened 2000 years ago and some will take that as evidence of a God. Those that do may require proof of the contrary viewpoint. There is still a case to answer either way. Finally, to suggest that people plant bombs because they believe in God is profoundly mistaken. Religious belief does not create bombers and terrorists. Human politics and the manipulation/control of the masses brings that about. Certain religions are linked to certain cultures and certain cultures have histories that are fraught with tragic events and resulting prejudices. That is nationalism and politics, human frailty, not a belief in God. Something has obviously moved you at some point to an extreme view in one direction and I am sorry about that. However, whether you like it or not, this is not about proof, it is about belief. You are at liberty to put your faith in human research and science but that does not mean there is no God, it just reflects your view; your belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsdinho Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 I've always been pretty sceptical tbh, but have a read through "the goldilocks enigma" by paul davies, then consider the sheer, overwhelming mathematical improbability of us existing at all unless it had been planned that way. The figures are jawdropping. We (the human race) are only here because that mathematical improbability happened. The universe is a finely balanced entity, alter any of the factors that amass to create our existence (change the amount of oxygen in our atmosphere by 1%, move earth closer to the sun by 1000 miles, increase earths mass by 1% etc) and we wouldn't be here. http://nobeliefs.com/exist.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 We (the human race) are only here because that mathematical improbability happened. The universe is a finely balanced entity, alter any of the factors that amass to create our existence (change the amount of oxygen in our atmosphere by 1%, move earth closer to the sun by 1000 miles, increase earths mass by 1% etc) and we wouldn't be here. Wouldn't God have simply tweaked the human being design to fit in with the different atmosphere so that we could survive under different conditions....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsdinho Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 "What one believes and what one can demonstrate historically are usually two different things." -Robert J. Miller, Bible scholar, (Bible Review, December 1993, Vol. IX, Number 6, p. 9) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsdinho Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Wouldn't God have simply tweaked the human being design to fit in with the different atmosphere so that we could survive under different conditions....? Are you suggesting that he did..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 What were these things that happened 'around the globe'? The reason the supposed birth of Jesus is used as a reference point is because the Romans eventually become Christian and the Catholic church which evolved out of the Roman Empire became dominant in Europe. If the West hadn't have been so dominant across the world over the last few hundred years then it is highly plausible that we'd be using a completely different calendar based upon the Chinese, Islamic or Hindu calendars - and they wouldn't be using the birth of Jesus as a starting point. So you dont think the locals were much impressed at the time then? I mean, if they had been we'd still be talking about it now, 2000 years later. Oh, hang on..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 If god exists then why doesn't he reveal himself to us? To keep website forum threads about religion going on for pages and pages of circular arguments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Are you suggesting that he did..? I'm agnostic, so....."maybe" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Anyway, the world is ending tomorrow at 6pm so this debate is futile..... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-preacher-warns-end-of-the-world-is-nigh-21-may-around-6pm-to-be-precise-2254139.html ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goalie66 Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 If god exists then why doesn't he reveal himself to us? An age old question for which many religious apologists will offer numerous baseless arguments. The Christians would say that he already did reveal himself to us in the form of Jesus. So let's just think about this for a second... We have an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent being who created all things, and he chooses to prove his existence to mankind by taking the form of a man. Yeah, right. The Muslims would argue that god proved his existence in the revelation that he gave to the prophet Mohammed. Again, if we can just dissect this... It is the belief of most Muslims that the Koran is the literal and unalterable word of god, and that it loses all meaning when translated into any language other than Arabic. So why then did he present this revelation to an illiterate who had no means of writing it down, and exclude the large majority of the population of the planet from understanding it? And why do the Koran and the Hadiths bear more than a passing resemblance to all other religious texts which went before them? If god does exist then he's a bit of a git really, because more people throughout the ages have been killed in his name than for any other cause, and he just sits there in the shadows letting it happen. Doesn't sound like an all-loving creator to me. The whole concept of god was dreamed up by people who had zero understanding of how the universe works as a way of explaining the unexplained, and the idea of organised religion was seized upon by those in power as a means to control the populace and maintain the status quo. It has no place in a modern, scientifically enlightened world and I find it amazing that governments around the world still pander to these cults (which is essentially what all religions are). Brilliant.Perfectly summarised Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimond Geezer Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 I find it surprising there are so many non-believers on this forum. What is wrong with you people, of course god exists. He used to play No 7, & is a fan of pizzas. His existence can be proved very simply: go to Youtube & type in “Le God”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 So to summarise; a/ You believe in God, and probably an afterlife. b/ You believe there is no God, and there is no afterlife, and that our existence is simply a fluke. c/ You couldnt give a flying f*ck either way. d/ You do give a flying f*ck, but have accepted that you wont actually know for definite until you die, at which point you will find out for sure one way or the other. I pretty much fall into category d myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefunkygibbons Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 I'm in the minority here But, yes God does exist However, I am not going to grab a soap box and start preaching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jones91 Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 I think they may be a God, but Jesus was clearly just a nutter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Are we ? How do you KNOW you exist ? How do you KNOW I exist ? You, and anybody else that apparently posts on this forum, may just be a figment of an overactive imagination. Also, if God exists, explain Skatesmouth. badgerx16 is a spambot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 I find it a bit odd how some people give respect to the idea of Christianity or belief in God in general, but look on some religions like paganism as a bunch of nutters. It's also common to see people who believe in multiple gods as somehow primitive. As far as I can see they all have just as much foundation as each other. Paganism is no more ridiculous than Christianity. They're both based on nothing more than faith and tradition. similarly there are people who think Christianity is fair enough but laugh at things like tarot cards, horoscopes and similar. They are both beliefs in the supernatural. Why is one more valid than another? There's no physical evidence for either. It's just a case of the numbers believing, which surely means nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 badgerx16 is a spambot. If the alternative is to be you then I am happy being a spambot. ( This message was brought to you by a room filled with an infinite number of monkeys typing randomly on computer keyboards and purely by chance, once in a while, generating a comprehensible string of characters ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joensuu Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 Sorry CB I can't accept that you have the right to say "I believe there is no God because it has not been proved that God exists" without someone else having the right to say "I believe there is a God because it has never been proved that there is no God". IMO, this is absolutely fundamental. The basis of all modern science is evidence. Without evidence to support it, the theory becomes nonsense. The onus of evidence is upon those who claim their theory to be true, not upon the people who point out that they have no evidence. If I proposed to the world that an undetectible cloaked alien shaped like a bloated Henry Redkrapp was controlling the minds of all of our global leaders from an invisible underwater dungeon, would the onus be on me to evince by claim, or upon the rest of the world, who so far haven't found evidence to disprove my claim? There is sufficient evidence for many people that there is a God and they have a right to that belief and, unless it is proved otherwise, they will continue to hold on to that belief. Yes people have the right to belive what they want to, but you are confusing 'evidence' with personal opinions here. There simply isn't a shred of evidence. And again, it is the people making the outlandish claims that have to evince them, not the people who point out that they are lacking evidence. In the meantime, those who believe there is no God will probably hold on to that view until the existence of God is proved! No one is absolutely sure, we are all believers. You're right here. Although, for the record, there aren't many people who 'believe' that there is no God, we are a tad more certain than that. Something significant happened 2000 years ago and some will take that as evidence of a God. Those that do may require proof of the contrary viewpoint. There is still a case to answer either way. Sure, 2000 years ago, something happened. But there are plenty of other significant years: c. 500 years ago Sikhism was founded 1,389 years ago Islam was founded c. 2,500 years ago Buddhism was founded c. 3,300 years ago Judaism was founded c. 3,500 years ago Hinduism was founded People will argue that in all of these years 'Something significant happened' - but that isn't evidence. Those that do may require proof of the contrary viewpoint. There is still a case to answer either way. I assume you are suggesting that Christians require 'proof' that the deity they believe in doesn't exist. Why? Again you seem to be misinterpreting the onus of proof. It is impossible to disprove something that doesn't exist - it would be a fruitless exercise. Finally, to suggest that people plant bombs because they believe in God is profoundly mistaken. Religious belief does not create bombers and terrorists. Human politics and the manipulation/control of the masses brings that about. Certain religions are linked to certain cultures and certain cultures have histories that are fraught with tragic events and resulting prejudices. That is nationalism and politics, human frailty, not a belief in God. You are right here. Although I do find your seperation of 'believe in God' from 'Human politics and the manipulation/control of the masses' troubling. IMO they are one in the same. Something has obviously moved you at some point to an extreme view in one direction and I am sorry about that. However, whether you like it or not, this is not about proof, it is about belief. You are at liberty to put your faith in human research and science but that does not mean there is no God, it just reflects your view; your belief. IMO a view is only 'extreme' if it isn't substantiated. I'm sure when Einstein first suggested his views he was considered 'extreme'. But the more a view is backed up with evidence the less extreme it becomes. We are all welcome to our own beliefs, but please don't confuse a 'belief' in human research and science with a 'belief' in a deity. These aren't mutually incompatible things; many people believe in both. So yes, both are 'belief', but with a vast void between them: to dismiss God, is akin to dismissing alien-probing tales as myth; whereas to dismiss science is akin to dismissing the tangible world we see around us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 So you dont think the locals were much impressed at the time then? I mean, if they had been we'd still be talking about it now, 2000 years later. Oh, hang on..... I haven't got a clue what your point is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 We are all welcome to our own beliefs, but please don't confuse a 'belief' in human research and science with a 'belief' in a deity. These aren't mutually incompatible things; many people believe in both. So yes, both are 'belief', but with a vast void between them: to dismiss God, is akin to dismissing alien-probing tales as myth; whereas to dismiss science is akin to dismissing the tangible world we see around us. Theres the conundrum. Scientists not so many centuries ago believed that the earth was flat, and that we were at the centre of the universe. Would you accept the concept or possibility of physical dimensions of which we are unaware and incapable of perceiving? And does our being unaware of them preclude their existence? Scientists right now are working on quantum physics experiments in the LHC, looking for particles that make up the unknown mass of the universe, dark matter, (which happens to be greater than what we actually know about or have thus far proved to exist.) Science is the way to go, I agree, but to say that we havent demonstrated something up to now and therefore it cant exist is ridiculous. Ive read a few books on quantum physics, and the science in those raises more questions than answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 20 May, 2011 Share Posted 20 May, 2011 (edited) An enjoyable read chaps. Can I ask one suplemental question? Define God. Many dismiss an argument on here because they have an idea in their minds of what it is they are dismissing. Are we discussing God the Merciful, God the Mighty, Thor, Apollo, The White Bearded Guy, the many interpretations of Allah? Heck even the Higgs-Bosun particle? or The Force from Star Wars? I fly a lot, planes go above the clouds. I ain't never seen no old geezer with a beard sitting on one, doesn't mean to say that I don't believe in some form of greater force based on some specific (lack of) fact - which is If the Big Bang created everything, what went bang? I should have finished... Belief and Faith are IMHO critical parts of human existence, and the Human mind can do far more than we ever use it for. Forces outside our scope may well exist. The only issue I have with any of this is not Faith or Blief. It is about OTHER people ramming THEIR ideas down my throat. Believe MY version or you will Burn in Hell. And from that the whole "Corporate Empires" that have been created with adriansfc on how they have used their wealth and power. Oh and that goes for hating preachers from Double Glazing, Insurance as well as Tibetan Monks, Jedi's & the other mainstream "Manipulators of the human mind" Edited 20 May, 2011 by dubai_phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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