Retributive Justice

[Gemmel]

An intresting part of Sharia law.

 

A man in Iran who threw acid over someone who rejected his advances and left her blind, is to have 5 drops of acid put in each of his eyes (That will blind him), under "retributive justice" a part of sharia law.

 

It was supposed to be on Saturday, but has been postponed due to international pressure, but the woman is offering to carry out the blinding herself and is likely to go ahead behind close doors at some point in the future.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1387223/Irans-eye-eye-acid-punishment-sentence-branded-inhumane.html

 

For all the international opposition and out cry, I'm not really sure, I am against the punishment, as that is the law of the land in which he lived, he would have know that to be he consequences and also it is the wish of his victim, whose life he hus ruined.

[bridge too far]

I always think that these sorts of situations are hard to judge from afar.

 

Usually, in this country at least, the Daily Mail will argue for retributive justice e.g. chemical castration of paedophiles and rapists. So I guess their stance is because it's a Muslim country imposing such justice.

 

And we're the first to moan if, for example, another country (or EU) tries to impose its laws to override our national laws. But some feel we have the right to do so in other countries.

 

The poor woman - I can well understand her wanting revenge for such a barbaric act. But do two wrongs make a right? I would have thought imprisonment to be good justice.

 

As I say, tough call and I can see both points of view.

[Dog]

An eye for an eye.

 

Spoon them out I'd do it.

[Gemmel]

I only quoted the Daily mail as a link as it was better than the CNN one, but as you BFT, hard one to call.

[dubai_phil]

As some would argue...

 

Give it 20 years and the encroachment of Sharia law into the UK and it'll be commonly carried out in Parkhurst.

 

Seriously it is a very tough call. Just read the many articles in local papers and there are as many weird and babaric acts down in Iran (by men and women) as anywhere else.

 

Does punishment actually deter these crimes in either culture? Does rehabilitation actually work.

 

Nah shoot the lot of 'em or ship out to Australia.

 

Was another story similar recently about an attack that left someone paralysed. Punishment? Surgical cutting of perp's spinal chord.

 

Best to understand it goes on can't really call it barbaric when it is in The Bible and so many manage to interpret such words in so many ways

[mickn]

I don't find it a hard one to call at all, it shouldn't happen. As horrific as his crime was it really doesn't make it right imo to carry out an equally barbaric act to him.

[norwaysaint]

This is sadly another classic case of political correctness gone mad.

[Weston Super Saint]

The punishment fits the crime, gets my vote

[Saintandy666]

What would be retributive justice for Paedophiles? :/

[Manuel]

Society allowing itself to be dragged down to the level of the criminal. The remedy for acid throwing is to throw more acid. Not ideal, I don't think. That said, what would happen if it was here? Ten years GBH, reduced to six, of sitting around thumb twiddling? Not ideal either.

[Thedelldays]

Society allowing itself to be dragged down to the level of the criminal. The remedy for acid throwing is to throw more acid. Not ideal, I don't think. That said, what would happen if it was here? Ten years GBH, reduced to six, of sitting around thumb twiddling? Not ideal either.

 

or, getting out in half the time for saying you did it

[Saintandy666]

I do disagree with these kind of punishments and the death penalty either. As just said, it reduces you down to the levels of the criminal and personally I think a much worse punishment is sitting in a prison for years, bored out of your mind.

[keithd]

, bored out of your mind.

 

yep, being bored is the worst kind of punishment

[Saintandy666]

yep, being bored is the worst kind of punishment

 

It's more than that though... you are confined to one place for a long time.

 

What do you suggest?

[dubai_phil]

Point is though that those who say it drags you down to the level of the criminal, no it doesn't.

 

That is YOUR opinion from a UK viewpoint. To the society in which it is done it is simply what "God told them to do" as interpreted by their leaders and clerics.

 

Now I think it is barbaric, but as Norway Saint actually says, you cannot look at this and criticise with Western eyes because the Society is so non-Western it is almost anti-western.

 

Teh difference is of course in UK (and here) we can say this is Barbaric. In Iran you cannot say that as you would be calling God a Barbarian

[Wes Tender]

It's more than that though... you are confined to one place for a long time.

 

What do you suggest?

 

Yes, you're confined to one place for a long time, but you're fed, housed and clothed. Prison in some third world country must be hell, full of rats and cockroaches, the food and sanitation awful. But in the UK, most prisons resemble something more akin to a holiday camp and there is the opportunity to go crying to the Human Rights people to complain about things like slopping out, that you have been deprived of your right to vote, etc. Sentences never seem to be of a length commensurate with the crime and can be reduced with parole on good behaviour, whereas they ought instead to be increased for bad behaviour. Somehow, drug taking seems to be rife inside. How the hell do they get into a supposedly secure environment?

 

I personally find the Sharia Law to be barbaric in cases like this, but who are we to interfere in the customs and legal matters of other countries? A different matter if immigrants attempt to enforce it over here, where it should be stamped upon. And yet personally I believe in the death penalty under certain circumstances, where there can be no doubt of the guilt of a perpetrator of pre-meditated murder.

[Dog]

What would be retributive justice for Paedophiles? :/

 

You dirty ba5tard!!

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

If you saw her you would probably go down the eye for an eye route.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Yes, you're confined to one place for a long time, but you're fed, housed and clothed. Prison in some third world country must be hell, full of rats and cockroaches, the food and sanitation awful. But in the UK, most prisons resemble something more akin to a holiday camp .

 

FFS I suggest that you should change your holiday destination. I for one have never been on holiday somewhere that resembles a prison camp.

[BadgerBadger]

'an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind' - no pun intended, ghandi i think

[Special K]

FFS I suggest that you should change your holiday destination. I for one have never been on holiday somewhere that resembles a prison camp.

 

Where did you do bird then?

[aintforever]

He committed a bad crime but it is barbaric to do the same thing back.

 

I don't subscribe to this "it's a different culture so it's OK" nonsense, Sharia law is like what normal civilized nations did centuries ago, it's about time these Muslim sh!tholes caught up.

Edited 18 May, 2011 by aintforever

[Lighthouse]

It's odd. I'm in favour of the death penalty, yet I find myself opposed to this kind of thing. I guess it's because the death penalty is 'humane' whereas putting acid in someone's eyes is just barbaric. Even if they did the same first.

[Turkish]

Yes, you're confined to one place for a long time, but you're fed, housed and clothed. Prison in some third world country must be hell, full of rats and cockroaches, the food and sanitation awful. But in the UK, most prisons resemble something more akin to a holiday camp and there is the opportunity to go crying to the Human Rights people to complain about things like slopping out, that you have been deprived of your right to vote, etc. Sentences never seem to be of a length commensurate with the crime and can be reduced with parole on good behaviour, whereas they ought instead to be increased for bad behaviour. Somehow, drug taking seems to be rife inside. How the hell do they get into a supposedly secure environment?

 

I personally find the Sharia Law to be barbaric in cases like this, but who are we to interfere in the customs and legal matters of other countries? A different matter if immigrants attempt to enforce it over here, where it should be stamped upon. And yet personally I believe in the death penalty under certain circumstances, where there can be no doubt of the guilt of a perpetrator of pre-meditated murder.

 

Please tell me which prisons you have been in to know this.

 

And as for your second point regarding Parole, please explain and show examples of where and when sentances have been reduced by parole for good behaviour.

[sebastian firefly]

revenge is not the same as justice

 

revenge is an emotion

justice is not

[Wade Garrett]

Ken Clarke would be in favour of a softer sentence because some acid throwing incidents causing blindness aren't as serious as other acid throwing incidents causing blindness.

 

Ken probably thinks that 5 acid drops in just 1 eye is fair.

[Wade Garrett]

Please tell me which prisons you have been in to know this.

 

And as for your second point regarding Parole, please explain and show examples of where and when sentances have been reduced by parole for good behaviour.

 

 

I think Wes's second point is a sound one. Do you seriously need evidence that prisoners don't get released early for good behaviour?

[Turkish]

I think Wes's second point is a sound one. Do you seriously need evidence that prisoners don't get released early for good behaviour?

 

They dont. When a sentance is set by the judge the judge gives a sentance period, lets say 10 years for example, not all of this is spent in custody though, this is a maximum of 2/3rds of the sentance set by the judge, the remaining 3rd is spent released back on supervison licence, that is what people fail to understand (although tarrifs for life sentances are different). The judge will set a date when the prisoner can apply for parole at the time of sentancing, this is a minimum of half the whole sentance length, so in the case of a 10 year sentance they would be able to apply for parole after 5 years. Parole is then applied for and granted or not depending on behaviour in prision, attitude to offence, probation reports, risk of reoffending etc. If the application is rejected the prisoner can then reapply the following year and every year after that until their release date.

 

It's not a bed of roses when they are released either to go on their merry way doing what they want. They are on licence, have to report to probation and have strict conditions they have to stick to. If there is even a suspicion that the person has offended or is breaking their licence conditions they can be recalled to prison immediately. And sentances are increased for bad behaviour, prisoners get days added for offences inside such as being caught with drugs or alcohol and any criminal offence committed whist inside (eg an assault on another prisioner or officer) are added onto the sentance they are already serving. They dont get let out early, they get let out on the parole date set by the judge and is based on behaviour, rehabilition and risk of reoffending. The assumption that they get let out early for good behaviour is utter nonsense, and based on reading too many newspaper reports and ignorance of the court and sentance procedure.

Edited 18 May, 2011 by Turkish

[Deppo]

What would be retributive justice for Paedophiles? :/

 

Being bummed by a really old person.

[Wade Garrett]

They dont. When a sentance is set by the judge the judge gives a sentance period, lets say 10 years for example, not all of this is spent in custody though, this is a maximum of 2/3rds of the sentance set by the judge, the remaining 3rd is spent released back on supervison licence, that is what people fail to understand (although tarrifs for life sentances are different). The judge will set a date when the prisoner can apply for parole at the time of sentancing, this is a minimum of half the whole sentance length, so in the case of a 10 year sentance they would be able to apply for parole after 5 years. Parole is then applied for and granted or not depending on behaviour in prision, attitude to offence, probation reports, risk of reoffending etc. If the application is rejected the prisoner can then reapply the following year and every year after that until their release date.

 

It's not a bed of roses when they are released either to go on their merry way doing what they want. They are on licence, have to report to probation and have strict conditions they have to stick to. If there is even a suspicion that the person has offended or is breaking their licence conditions they can be recalled to prison immediately. And sentances are increased for bad behaviour, prisoners get days added for offences inside such as being caught with drugs or alcohol and any criminal offence committed whist inside (eg an assault on another prisioner or officer) are added onto the sentance they are already serving. The assumption that they get let out early for good behaviour is utter nonsense and based on reading too many newspaper reports and ignorance of the court and sentance procedure.

 

So if a prisoner on a 10 year sentence behaves himself inside he could get parole after 5 years. Doesn't seem that complicated to me. I think 10 years should mean 10 years.

[scotty]

Being bummed by a really old person.

 

How would that work? Viagra?

[Deppo]

How would that work? Viagra?

 

I don't know. I haven't planned out the details.

[Turkish]

So if a prisoner on a 10 year sentence behaves himself inside he could get parole after 5 years. Doesn't seem that complicated to me. I think 10 years should mean 10 years.

 

Maybe it should but it doesn't. That is where people get it wrong and assume that prisoners get let out early. For a 10 year sentance they will only ever spend a maximum of 2/3s of it in prison. It could mean as little as 5 years if they get parole. It's not a case of good behaviour meaning they get years knocked off, if they get granted parole they get released from custody on the day the judge says parole can be granted but if they do get it they do get it they spend longer on a supervision licence and have strict licence rules to stick to or risk immediate recall. In some cases this could be just being seen in a certain area of a town. BTW being a good boy doesnt automatically mean they'll get parole, it's not as straightforward as that, there are plenty more things they take into consideration.

Edited 18 May, 2011 by Turkish

[Saintandy666]

Yes, you're confined to one place for a long time, but you're fed, housed and clothed. Prison in some third world country must be hell, full of rats and cockroaches, the food and sanitation awful. But in the UK, most prisons resemble something more akin to a holiday camp and there is the opportunity to go crying to the Human Rights people to complain about things like slopping out, that you have been deprived of your right to vote, etc. Sentences never seem to be of a length commensurate with the crime and can be reduced with parole on good behaviour, whereas they ought instead to be increased for bad behaviour. Somehow, drug taking seems to be rife inside. How the hell do they get into a supposedly secure environment?

 

I personally find the Sharia Law to be barbaric in cases like this, but who are we to interfere in the customs and legal matters of other countries? A different matter if immigrants attempt to enforce it over here, where it should be stamped upon. And yet personally I believe in the death penalty under certain circumstances, where there can be no doubt of the guilt of a perpetrator of pre-meditated murder.

 

What experience of prison do you have?

[aintforever]

I think sentences should be tougher but after watching that Strangways programme last night I would say;

 

a) Prison is a f*cking nasty place to be.

 

b) The reducing time for good behaviour thing is a good idea.

[Turkish]

What experience of prison do you have?

 

That's really none of your business, but lets just say it's enough to know that the only people that say they are holiday camps have never been in one and read too many newspaper stories.

[Saintandy666]

That's really none of your business, but lets just say it's enough to know that the only people that say they are holiday camps have never been in one and read too many newspaper stories.

 

That was kind of my point. People who think it is a walk in the park are wrong.

[Turkish]

I think sentences should be tougher but after watching that Strangways programme last night I would say;

 

a) Prison is a f*cking nasty place to be.

 

b) The reducing time for good behaviour thing is a good idea.

 

I agree with A. But i think knocking time off sentances only helps the prisoner and the smooth running of the prison when they are in there, it doesn't help society when they are released. Prisons are there to punish and to protect the public. I think the current parole system works well enough, that way they have boundries and restrictions they are not allowed to break or they will be recalled to prison, but they have to be supervised properly for it to work. the parole systems gives a prisoner an incentive to behave whilst inside anyway.

[Turkish]

That was kind of my point. People who think it is a walk in the park are wrong.

 

Sorry mate, i was reading your comment wrong, for some reason i thought you were replying to me and not Westender!

[dune]

Putting acid in someones eyes is torture and i'm against that. I think we should bring back hanging for the worst crimes though. When carried out by an experienced hangman such as Albert Pierrepoint it's swift and clininical and causes no suffering.

[Turkish]

Putting acid in someones eyes is torture and i'm against that. I think we should bring back hanging for the worst crimes though. When carried out by an experienced hangman such as Albert Pierrepoint it's swift and clininical and causes no suffering.

 

In certain circumstances then it's probably right, terrorists, murders of children, basically for all cold blooded murder.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I think sentences should be tougher but after watching that Strangways programme last night I would say;

 

a) Prison is a f*cking nasty place to be.

 

b) The reducing time for good behaviour thing is a good idea.

 

Its a quite simple equation. The punishment should outweigh the crime.

 

As for the death penalty I have concluded that certain offenders should swing. How can anyone argue that the bloke that murdered Milly Downer if found guilty should not be hanged.

[benjii]

What would be retributive justice for Paedophiles? :/

 

?

 

It's not a time travelling dildo but it's the best we've got.

[dune]

Going off on a slight tangent (apologies) I have recently transferred 65% of my avc's into a Sharia compliant fund. Of the options available it was the most appealing as it is global equities and I didn't fancy investing 100% in UK equities instead choosing to invest 35% in these. Anyway what I found interesting was the top holdings in the Amanah fund; Exxon Mobil, Microsoft, Chevron, IBM, Procter and Gamble, Johnson and Johnson, google, Novartis, Pfizer, Coca Cola.

 

So what makes these companies Sharia compliant?

[benjii]

Its a quite simple equation. The punishment should outweigh the crime.

 

As for the death penalty I have concluded that certain offenders should swing. How can anyone argue that the bloke that murdered Milly Downer if found guilty should not be hanged.

 

Because the death penalty is final and offers no hope or chance of repreive to those wrongly convicted.

 

You will now say, "I mean only in cases where there's no doubt, no doubt at all", to which I will say, "the burden of proof for all criminal convictions is 'beyond reasonable doubt'; ie, no reasonable person can doubt the accused carried out the act; ie. there is no doubt. If you want to formulate a different test then go ahead but you will never remove the possibility of grey areas and miscarriages of justice."

[Saintandy666]

Putting acid in someones eyes is torture and i'm against that. I think we should bring back hanging for the worst crimes though. When carried out by an experienced hangman such as Albert Pierrepoint it's swift and clininical and causes no suffering.

 

The death penalty is the easy way out in my opinion. The only reason it was ever justified was because of the heaven/hell eternal punishment and so on... remember a lot of our law was originally based on the Bible.

 

I think prison is a much nastier punishment because it goes on and on and on.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Because the death penalty is final and offers no hope or chance of repreive to those wrongly convicted.

 

You will now say, "I mean only in cases where there's no doubt, no doubt at all", to which I will say, "the burden of proof for all criminal convictions is 'beyond reasonable doubt'; ie, no reasonable person can doubt the accused carried out the act; ie. there is no doubt. If you want to formulate a different test then go ahead but you will never remove the possibility of grey areas and miscarriages of justice."

 

If I understand you right it is a bit like saying we can't play football because the referee is ****e

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I think a suicide pack (ropes, razors, pills etc) should be put in the cells of certain offenders. Ian Brady, Rose West, Huntley, Levi Bellfield etc; they can then do us all a favour

[scotty]

That's really none of your business, but lets just say it's enough to know that the only people that say they are holiday camps have never been in one and read too many newspaper stories.

 

This is accurate. Thankfully I havent served time, but I have done some work in prisons in the midlands and I wouldnt want to be stuck in one. The usual daily mail b*llocks about it being a cushy number is utter sh*te, it irritates me whenever I read/hear that spouted.

[Jonnyboy]

I think a suicide pack (ropes, razors, pills etc) should be put in the cells of certain offenders. Ian Brady, Rose West, Huntley, Levi Bellfield etc; they can then do us all a favour

 

I think they often are.