It's a new contract for Adkins!!

[Frank's cousin]

When Adkins took over, we had played five league games and had lost three of those; we had four points to our name and were in the relegation zone. For such a good squad, I'd say that was a pretty disastrous start to the season; the one saving grace was that it was still early enough for a new manager to turn things around. Many on here, I seem to recall, reckoned that our season was irreparably damaged after those six games. I remember all the calculations of likely points needed, points per game needed and so forth, along with the comments on just how hard it would be to achieve them. As it turns out, we achieved it all and more - few if any reckoned we'd need 92 points just to get second spot.

 

And don't underestimate the difficulties that Adkins faced. Taking over a group of players who were mostly signed by another manager, who are demoralised and playing very poorly, is no picnic - no matter how good those players are. You make it sound as if all Adkins had to do was turn up and that was that - I think that would have been a long way from the truth. After all, if it was all so easy with the squad we had, how come Wilkins lost every game he managed us in? Would we even have reached the play-offs had Wilkins remained in charge?

 

Adkins would have had to win the confidence and trust of the players, which would, I'm sure, have taken some time. Remember that he wasn't a big-name manager who could command instant respect from the players, in the way that Dalglish appears to have done at Liverpool.

 

I don't think that anyone is saying that Adkins has "performed a miracle with his hands tied" as you put it; but he has performed better than any manager in the league, bar one, in his time at Saints, which deserves rather more recognition than the damnation with faint praise which you consider appropriate.

 

THIS!!! Top post

 

Seems many on here are judgiung Adkins by their own belief in the media hype and their own pre-season 'we will walk this league' misconceptions.

 

I suspect, that when the c ontract wa offered in Jan and even though signed by Adkins, the ink is probably only just dry with respet to NC's sigature, in that a prerequisit was promotion this season... speculation I know, but I dont think NC is naive. I also suspect that the contract will contain clauses around key performance milestones and that Adkins will be under continuing pressure to meet those... from his side the benefits, will i suspect, be good rewards if these milestones are met.

 

We all know continuity is important and that if you get the right manager, who can learn and build a side over a number of years, it usually means a better chance of success, so for me one of the best aspects of this is that NC recognises this and sees the value in continuity, stabilty and loyalty. BUt no one is that naive to suggest that if does not meet the targets, that he will be here indefinitely.

 

But FFS, who here can say honestly they know what those targets are? Sure we WANT to have a real go at back to back promotions, and the target for next season shoudl reflect that, BUT that is different to what may be included as key performance milestones in any contract extension, which will more likely be based on obvious progress and a minimum of a top half finish - decent improvement and getting set up for a challenge on an auto spot the following seaso.

 

Also Akins would be the first to admit that he has a lot to learn... but rather than seeing this as a negative thing, I see this a very positive. Some fans seem to think that because he was not a big name, or had an extensive playing record, that he had no business coming to our 'massive L1 club' - seems somes fans need a name to satisfy tehir own egos... maybe we shoudl just look back a few years and remind ourselves of the most succesful period in this clubs history and who the manager was, his 'playing' background and experience....

[doddisalegend]

Precisely! FWIW my views entirely mirror your own.

 

I'm actually looking forward to having lower expectations again, this season I really thought we could be champions and the expectations made me a miserable wrist slasher. Next season I'll be on here saying we're in a play off place thats really great while others demanding a Norwich like season will be getting all moody that we're not going up autos.

Edited 15 May, 2011 by doddisalegend

[hypochondriac]

I'm actually looking forward to having lower expectations again, this season I really thought we could be champions and the expectations made me a miserable wrist slasher. Next season I'll be on here saying were in a play off place thats really great while others demanding a Norwich like season will be getting all moody that we're not going up autos.

 

Yes it has been really weird. Ordinarily I would say my expectations are lower than the average every season. Expecting mediocrity is much easier than expecting big successes!

[RonManager]

Both managers have done their bit to get us back out of this league.

 

 

So well done Algel Pardkins.

[St Marco]

When Adkins took over, we had played five league games and had lost three of those; we had four points to our name and were in the relegation zone. For such a good squad, I'd say that was a pretty disastrous start to the season; the one saving grace was that it was still early enough for a new manager to turn things around. .

 

Sorry but this is a fine example of what i mean about people being ott about the start.

As you said from the first 5 games we won only one game. But if you look at the first 5 games for say Huddersfield/Bournemouth your see they only won 1 more game then us. You look at Brighton's first 5 games and your see they won 3, lost 1 and drew 1. Peterborugh/Mk Dons lost 2 of their 5. Point being there was not this huge gap that people try and make out. If the next game had been a win it would look different. Can you really say we were doomed based on 5 games? Because if you do then surely the same logic must apply to Adkins who had 1 win from his first 4 games? You can't judge how a season will go based on such few games. Whoever came in to the job after the 5th game mark only had to win 2 games to get us back on track. Are you really saying that was a "difficult" task to do?

[Fowllyd]

Sorry but this is a fine example of what i mean about people being ott about the start.

As you said from the first 5 games we won only one game. But if you look at the first 5 games for say Huddersfield/Bournemouth your see they only won 1 more game then us. You look at Brighton's first 5 games and your see they won 3, lost 1 and drew 1. Peterborugh/Mk Dons lost 2 of their 5. Point being there was not this huge gap that people try and make out. If the next game had been a win it would look different. Can you really say we were doomed based on 5 games? Because if you do then surely the same logic must apply to Adkins who had 1 win from his first 4 games? You can't judge how a season will go based on such few games. Whoever came in to the job after the 5th game mark only had to win 2 games to get us back on track. Are you really saying that was a "difficult" task to do?

 

Nobody has said there was a huge gap - the biggest possible gap between two teams after five games would be fifteen points, after all. Our start to the season, for a team widely tipped to win the league, was very poor. Yes, our position in the bottom four looked false given the quality of our squad, but having started so poorly (all the more so given that we then lost our sixth game as well) we were in the position of having to catch up. At no point in my post did I suggest we were doomed after five games, incidentally; I'm not sure where you got that idea from.

 

It was never simply a case of winning two games to get us back on track, as you rather simplistically suggest; we had points to make up, and all our rivals were busy accruing these as well. In order to gain promotion, we had to outperform every other team in this league; further, this had to be accomplished against the backdrop of a managerial change and all the disruption which that must have caused. That was never going to be an easy task, but we did it; which is why I think that Adkins has done an excellent job thus far.

[St Marco]

Nobody has said there was a huge gap - the biggest possible gap between two teams after five games would be fifteen points, after all. Our start to the season, for a team widely tipped to win the league, was very poor. Yes, our position in the bottom four looked false given the quality of our squad, but having started so poorly (all the more so given that we then lost our sixth game as well) we were in the position of having to catch up. At no point in my post did I suggest we were doomed after five games, incidentally; I'm not sure where you got that idea from.

 

It was never simply a case of winning two games to get us back on track, as you rather simplistically suggest; we had points to make up, and all our rivals were busy accruing these as well. In order to gain promotion, we had to outperform every other team in this league; further, this had to be accomplished against the backdrop of a managerial change and all the disruption which that must have caused. That was never going to be an easy task, but we did it; which is why I think that Adkins has done an excellent job thus far.

 

You said "thankfully it was still early to turn things around". Surely that implies you thought we were in some trouble and if things didn't change we would of continued in that vein?

To just give you another example of what i mean Arsenal have now lost 3 of their last 4 games. Does that mean next year they would be relegation candidates? Obviously not. All teams have blips in their season. Adkins has lost 8 games this year. That is almost as high as all our games lost for the entire season last year. If you look at the first 3 games of the season us,Huddersfield and Brighton had the same amount of points. So our rivals were not "accuring" those points as you say. The whole start argument thing revolves around those 2 games lost after Pardew left when we were looking for a new manager. To think we were destined for a poor season based on those 2 games as i said before is a tad ott.

Adkins has done really well and as i said before deserves the respect and praise he is getting. But if we did not get promoted i think most people would of seen it as a poor season. Even if we lost the first 5 games i am sure most people would still of expected promotion whoever came in. He got us promoted. That what was required of him.

 

Next season will be totally different. As me and others have said. We will be in a far harder league, we will have to play much better football then we have at times this year. We will need to bring in Championship level players to take us further and so on. The building of a league one promotion chasing club was done by Pardew. The building of a championship promotion chasing club will be done by Adkins.

That will be what he is judged on. I have total faith in Adkins and think we have the right person for the job. But this was the easy part of the project. The real hard work is ahead of us.

[1976_Child]

Excellent news!

 

Can someone remind me, what was his initial contract for?

[Matthew Le God]

Can someone remind me, what was his initial contract for?

 

30th June 2014.

 

And it is now 30th June 2015.

[1976_Child]

30th June 2014.

 

And it is now 30th June 2015.

 

thought so. maybe NA initially wanted 4 years but NC gave him a goal to achieve by Jan and then he would add a year??

[Fowllyd]

You said "thankfully it was still early to turn things around". Surely that implies you thought we were in some trouble and if things didn't change we would of continued in that vein?

 

No, obviously not. My point was that our start was poor, but that it was early enough in the season for a new manager to effect the necessary turnaround. Had Wilkins been in charge for longer we'd have fallen further behind the top teams, making things even more difficult.

 

To just give you another example of what i mean Arsenal have now lost 3 of their last 4 games. Does that mean next year they would be relegation candidates? Obviously not.

 

No indeed, and I wouldn't suggest that it would do. But form of that sort has cost them any chance they had of winning the Premier League.

 

All teams have blips in their season. Adkins has lost 8 games this year. That is almost as high as all our games lost for the entire season last year.

 

Not sure I see your point here. We lost seven league games under Adkins, out of 41 played. More saliently perhaps, we never lost two matches running.

 

If you look at the first 3 games of the season us,Huddersfield and Brighton had the same amount of points. So our rivals were not "accuring" those points as you say. The whole start argument thing revolves around those 2 games lost after Pardew left when we were looking for a new manager. To think we were destined for a poor season based on those 2 games as i said before is a tad ott.

 

I said our rivals were accruing points throughout the season; this is why it was never a question of us simply winning two games. Yes, if we had won two games and all our rivals kindly lost their games at the same time, winning two games would have put us back on track. But that wasn't the case, because our rivals for promotion were winning games too. Do you see my point here?

 

Adkins has done really well and as i said before deserves the respect and praise he is getting. But if we did not get promoted i think most people would of seen it as a poor season. Even if we lost the first 5 games i am sure most people would still of expected promotion whoever came in. He got us promoted. That what was required of him.

 

Maybe so, but getting automatic promotion after losing the first five matches would have been a massive task. I think you're right that most would have seen the season as a failure had we not secured promotion - I certainly would have done. Our start did make it more difficult, but I still expected it.

 

Next season will be totally different. As me and others have said. We will be in a far harder league, we will have to play much better football then we have at times this year. We will need to bring in Championship level players to take us further and so on. The building of a league one promotion chasing club was done by Pardew. The building of a championship promotion chasing club will be done by Adkins.

That will be what he is judged on. I have total faith in Adkins and think we have the right person for the job. But this was the easy part of the project. The real hard work is ahead of us.

 

Can't argue with any of that really!

[CB Fry]

30th June 2014.

 

And it is now 30th June 2015.

 

 

Which is why we're no more stable today than we were yesterday.

 

When we've had a manager at the club for four years then we can crow on about about managerial stability.

 

Until then the fact is our current manager has yet to complete a full season in charge, and our current chairman has sacked two managers in two seasons.

 

The contract signed in January didn't make us more stable, the announcement of it yesterday morning doesn't make us more stable.

 

Contrary to popular misconception, managerial stability in itself is not the aim. It is not, in itself, a good thing. Success on the pitch is the aim and that is always a good thing.

 

West Ham stuck with their manager and gave him time to bed in, settle in and all that boll ocks. West Brom booted out their relatively successful manager quite brutally.

 

Hands up all the Hammers fans craving managerial stability....

[JackFrost]

Which is why we're no more stable today than we were yesterday.

 

When we've had a manager at the club for four years then we can crow on about about managerial stability.

 

Until then the fact is our current manager has yet to complete a full season in charge, and our current chairman has sacked two managers in two seasons.

 

The contract signed in January didn't make us more stable, the announcement of it yesterday morning doesn't make us more stable.

 

Contrary to popular misconception, managerial stability in itself is not the aim. It is not, in itself, a good thing. Success on the pitch is the aim and that is always a good thing.

 

West Ham stuck with their manager and gave him time to bed in, settle in and all that boll ocks. West Brom booted out their relatively successful manager quite brutally.

 

Hands up all the Hammers fans craving managerial stability....

 

I'm afraid you'll find a flood of hands going up.

 

In the last 2 years and 8 months Curbishley, Zola and now Grant have all either walked out the door or been shown the door. Assuming they hire a name next season that'll be what 4 different managers in 4 seasons? That's not including any caretaker managers. Hiring Grant was an awful decision and it ensured the last few nails went into the coffin, especially when you consider the club were pumping up the rumours that Riquelme was about to sign for them a year ago. (Corp Ho must have a West Ham-supporting relative)

 

That's anything BUT managerial stability, it's a managerial record that is heading towards Lowe's.

 

As for Adkins who knows? He's made a very encouraging start but next season we'll want to target a top 6 spot and get off the ground running but finishing anywhere in mid table I'd be happy with. Next season for me is more about consolidation for the season after than anything else for me.

Edited 16 May, 2011 by JackFrost

[St_Tel49]

This will end up costing us a packet when it goes t1ts up.

 

Attaboy - go for the positive

[CB Fry]

I'm afraid you'll find a flood of hands going up.

 

In the last 2 years and 8 months Curbishley, Zola and now Grant have all either walked out the door or been shown the door. Assuming they hire a name next season that'll be what 4 different managers in 4 seasons? That's not including any caretaker managers. Hiring Grant was an awful decision and it ensured the last few nails went into the coffin, especially when you consider the club were pumping up the rumours that Riquelme was about to sign for them a year ago. (Corp Ho must have a West Ham-supporting relative)

 

That's anything BUT managerial stability, it's a managerial record that is heading towards Lowe's.

 

As for Adkins who knows? He's made a very encouraging start but next season we'll want to target a top 6 spot and get off the ground running but finishing anywhere in mid table I'd be happy with. Next season for me is more about consolidation for the season after than anything else for me.

 

 

Sorry, disagree.

 

Sacking Curbs was clearly an error but Zola was given pretty much two full seasons (longer than, say, Nigel Adkins has had to get us promoted, or Owen Coyle needed to turn around Bolton, or Holloway needed to promote Blackpool, or the same time as Arry needed to take Spurs into the Champion's League, less time than Poyet needed at Brighton to win the title, or the same time as Lambert needed at Norwich to nail two promotions, or Mark Hughes needed to take Fulham back into the top half).

 

To suggest Zola was some victim of a Lowe style revolving door policy is stretching the truth a bit. The stability of keeping Zola on was only going to end up with Relegation anyway.

 

It's not managerial unstability that did for the Hammers, it was just appointing the wrong manager twice in a row. Both of them had “time”.

 

A straw poll of WHU fans at the end of Jan to choose between elbowing Avram, and wonderful "managerial stability" would have only gone one way.

 

And I doubt any WHU fans today would put their hand up for "managerial stability" and keeping Avram versus making a change.

 

No doubt some smart arse will wheel out the Lawrie got relegated in his first blah blah blah, but I don't care. It's not 1975 any more.

 

Managerial stability, in itself, is not good. Having the right manager is good, as we currently do.

 

No West Ham fan is going to put their hand up for managerial stability today. They'll be happier with a new manager. They just need the right man.

[sadoldgit]

But sometimes you do have the right manager and he needs some time to get things right. It is knowing when to let someone go and when to keep them that is the test.

[Thedelldays]

But sometimes you do have the right manager and he needs some time to get things right. It is knowing when to let someone go and when to keep them that is the test.

 

i know, we should have given burley his marching orders before he left

[Tamesaint]

Some people try and concentrate on our start of the season and yes it was not the best but it was not awful either.

 

I saw the games at Swindon and MK Dons. I saw the game at Rochdale. Trust me. We were awful.

[CB Fry]

But sometimes you do have the right manager and he needs some time to get things right. It is knowing when to let someone go and when to keep them that is the test.

 

Quite right. Nigel Pearson was let go far too soon.

[sadoldgit]

Quite right. Nigel Pearson was let go far too soon.

 

Maybe he was, but he is still a CCC manager and whose to say if he will go any further?

[sadoldgit]

i know, we should have given burley his marching orders before he left

 

Yep, what a bastard eh? Best wins per match ratio record before Pardew and Adkins came along. Who needs it?

[NickG]

Quite right. Nigel Pearson was let go far too soon.

 

definately, but he wasn't great with us or since - maybe Adkins will be.

[hutch]

He turned us from:

 

Saints 2-0 down - game over; Saints 2-0 up - squeaky bum time

 

to:

 

Saints 2-0 up - game over; Saints 2-0 down - game on

 

And his most important signings have been Team Spirit and Fortress St. Marys

 

Long may it continue

[NickG]

He turned us from:

 

Saints 2-0 down - game over; Saints 2-0 up - squeaky bum time

 

to:

 

Saints 2-0 up - game over; Saints 2-0 down - game on

 

And his most important signings have been Team Spirit and Fortress St. Marys

 

Long may it continue

 

good post

[NickG]

says it all:

 

http://www.leaguemanagers.com/managers/mpl-league.html?seasonid=141&type=Season+Total

[doddisalegend]

He turned us from:

 

Saints 2-0 down - game over; Saints 2-0 up - squeaky bum time

 

to:

 

Saints 2-0 up - game over; Saints 2-0 down - game on

 

And his most important signings have been Team Spirit and Fortress St. Marys

 

Long may it continue

 

This isn't a Nigel bash but I really wonder were that myth comes from, it's kind of like the we never do well on telly or always lose when the other team has a new manager lines. Last season we came from behind to win 9 times (all comps) this season we came from behind to win 7 times (all comps) we only lost at SMS 5 times last season (twice 2PL teams) this season under Nigel we lost three times at home (1 to a PL team) SMS has been a bit of fortess since we came down to league 1 really.

 

The main difference this season under Nigel has been less draws more than anything.

[saintalan]

says it all:

 

http://www.leaguemanagers.com/managers/mpl-league.html?seasonid=141&type=Season+Total

 

Interesting that Gus disappeared, he was just a few places behind Nigel last time!

[Gingeletiss]

Interesting that Gus disappeared, he was just a few places behind Nigel last time!

 

Taking over at West Ham, so he gets Uncle Avrams points so look at the very bottom

[Lets B Avenue]

comps) last season this season under Nigel we lost three times at home (1 to a PL team) SMS has been a bit of fortess since we came down to league 1 really.

 

 

Three? Brentford, ManUre and who else?

[doddisalegend]

Three? Brentford, ManUre and who else?

 

You're right two I counted Rochdale which of course was 2 games before Nigel took over.

[Frank's cousin]

Sorry, disagree.

 

Sacking Curbs was clearly an error but Zola was given pretty much two full seasons (longer than, say, Nigel Adkins has had to get us promoted, or Owen Coyle needed to turn around Bolton, or Holloway needed to promote Blackpool, or the same time as Arry needed to take Spurs into the Champion's League, less time than Poyet needed at Brighton to win the title, or the same time as Lambert needed at Norwich to nail two promotions, or Mark Hughes needed to take Fulham back into the top half).

 

To suggest Zola was some victim of a Lowe style revolving door policy is stretching the truth a bit. The stability of keeping Zola on was only going to end up with Relegation anyway.

 

It's not managerial unstability that did for the Hammers, it was just appointing the wrong manager twice in a row. Both of them had “time”.

 

A straw poll of WHU fans at the end of Jan to choose between elbowing Avram, and wonderful "managerial stability" would have only gone one way.

 

And I doubt any WHU fans today would put their hand up for "managerial stability" and keeping Avram versus making a change.

 

No doubt some smart arse will wheel out the Lawrie got relegated in his first blah blah blah, but I don't care. It's not 1975 any more.

 

Managerial stability, in itself, is not good. Having the right manager is good, as we currently do.

 

No West Ham fan is going to put their hand up for managerial stability today. They'll be happier with a new manager. They just need the right man.

 

Sorry, disagree.

 

Sacking Curbs was clearly an error but Zola was given pretty much two full seasons (longer than, say, Nigel Adkins has had to get us promoted, or Owen Coyle needed to turn around Bolton, or Holloway needed to promote Blackpool, or the same time as Arry needed to take Spurs into the Champion's League, less time than Poyet needed at Brighton to win the title, or the same time as Lambert needed at Norwich to nail two promotions, or Mark Hughes needed to take Fulham back into the top half).

 

To suggest Zola was some victim of a Lowe style revolving door policy is stretching the truth a bit. The stability of keeping Zola on was only going to end up with Relegation anyway.

 

It's not managerial unstability that did for the Hammers, it was just appointing the wrong manager twice in a row. Both of them had “time”.

 

A straw poll of WHU fans at the end of Jan to choose between elbowing Avram, and wonderful "managerial stability" would have only gone one way.

 

And I doubt any WHU fans today would put their hand up for "managerial stability" and keeping Avram versus making a change.

 

No doubt some smart arse will wheel out the Lawrie got relegated in his first blah blah blah, but I don't care. It's not 1975 any more.

 

Managerial stability, in itself, is not good. Having the right manager is good, as we currently do.

 

No West Ham fan is going to put their hand up for managerial stability today. They'll be happier with a new manager. They just need the right man.

 

Whilst I would agree with much of what you say.... I would make the point though that as a 'policy' at least having a longer term contract in place is designed to 'encourage' stability. Naturally, if relative to the resources Nige is given next seasson, we struggle, then it will still be up to NC to decide if NIge is able to LEARN quickly enough in a second CCC season to put us in contention... very difficult situation and question to asnwer without a chrystal ball ;-)

 

BUt I think the point is, that in this modern era, would someone like Lawrie have survived the the chop, given the impact on finances that comes with relegation, even if he had potential? I think not as boards prefer to change managers, rather than place the eggs in the 'he has potential' basket.

 

For me the question over Nige is not about what he has achieved in L1 - there should be no doubt about what he has achieved - given the potential impact of the Pardew sacking and then losses on teh bouncve in caretaker mode.... and to turn that around and out perform every other manager in the league from that point on in terms of points tally is no mean feat, even with the resources we have...

 

...no the question over Nige is whether he will be able to learn quickly enough to respond to the demands of the NPC and make us competitive (subject to appropriate resources being added) to satisfy not necessarily the fans, but more importantly NC and fulfil the plan. I think most fans would be satisfied with solid progress, top half, possibly skirting with the playoffs and then win it the next season... but we should not underestimate the power of momentum and the positive spirit if we make some wise/get lucky additions... the benefit of promotion, and the impact on budget woudl be phenomenal, but we would need to be prepared for a possible relegation, as I think it will be exceedingly tough to be competitive if we were promoted yet again..

 

So, Nige will be back under pressure - I suspect he is will be capable of managing at a higher level, but needs to continue developing and getting more experience rapidly if he is to meet NC's target. I for one hope he succeeds in that, as for me his greatest asssest has been the way he has instilled a certain steel around within the squad... the results in the last 14 games with only 1 defeat and 1 draw, exemplified that, especially in the face of amazing competition and pressure from Huddersfield (and the posh until they faded) - in the past I do think we would have capitulated far easier and its that change for which he should be given the biggest credit.