Clegg has ruined the Lib Dems

[1976_Child]

I'm no fan of the Liberal Demoncrats but if I was I would be bloody livid that the dweebie Clegg had ruined the party. They are utterly discredited. Completely divided and their grass roots support has imploded. Only the lib-dem MPs want to stay in the bubble believing they are 'doing the coalition for the interests of the country. Boll0x. They are doing it to get their hands on power. Clegg is a chinless wonder non-entity.

[JackFrost]

Clegg has basically confirmed that the Lib Dems were a party that said all the right things to get elected but were completely unworkable in the real world

 

Clegg has sold them out to the Tories, and Cameron has manoeuvred the chess pieces perfectly to ensure that if anything that goes wrong with the coalition the Lib Dems will bear the brunt of the consequences and will take the damage.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I cant believe people are surprised about this; The Lib/Dems have been the most unscrupulous of parties for a number of years, saying different things to different voters at every election. They run a completely different campaigns and stand for completely different policies in Tory areas than they do in Labour areas and always have done. They fight the dirtest of any party, witness Simon Hughes' disgraceful homophobic attack on Peter Tatchell all those years ago (described as the "the dirtiest and most notorious by-election in British political history" ).Surely it's obvious to everyone that once they got into bed with the Tory they would lose left wing support, just as much as if they had got into bed with labour would lose right wing support. I'm glad they've been shown up for what they are, a rabble who will do anything for power. They were a protest vote, but now they're in power have lost the only reason for voting for them. They'll now tear themselves apart over the coming years, with some joining the Tories, some returning to Labour and the sandal wearing rest, ending up with a dozen MP's in our 2 party system.

[scotty]

Yes, he's ruined them by actually putting them in power for the first time in living memory.

 

And all these comments about manifesto pledges are irrelevant btw. They were not elected. They are part of a coalition, which is an entirely different thing. Of course they wont get everything they wanted to implement. Neither did the tories.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I'm no fan of the Liberal Demoncrats but if I was I would be bloody livid that the dweebie Clegg had ruined the party. They are utterly discredited. Completely divided and their grass roots support has imploded. Only the lib-dem MPs want to stay in the bubble believing they are 'doing the coalition for the interests of the country. Boll0x. They are doing it to get their hands on power. Clegg is a chinless wonder non-entity.

 

By getting them into government. Judge him after 5 years.

[bridge too far]

Yes, he's ruined them by actually putting them in power for the first time in living memory.

 

And all these comments about manifesto pledges are irrelevant btw. They were not elected (to govern). They are part of a coalition, which is an entirely different thing. Of course they wont get everything they wanted to implement. Neither did the tories.

 

To be fair, nor were the Tories or, indeed, the coalition.

 

As one commentator so eloquently put it, Cameron is using them as a human shield.

[1976_Child]

Clegg and the lib-dems are turncoats. They promised no tuition fee rises and then promptly voted with the tories. Whether or not you think the policy is right - I happen to believe that it is - there is no getting around that they promised one thing and then did the exact opposite. They are unfit for office.

[solentstars]

Clegg and the lib-dems are turncoats. They promised no tuition fee rises and then promptly voted with the tories. Whether or not you think the policy is right - I happen to believe that it is - there is no getting around that they promised one thing and then did the exact opposite. They are unfit for office.

i think you will find that labour and the torys have broken policys loads of times and that the torys did not get a majority in the country and cameron prefers to work with the liberals has a bulwark to stop the mad right wing of his party calling the tune .

[Lord Duckhunter]

.

 

As one commentator so eloquently put it, Cameron is using them as a human shield.

 

What complete and utter rubbish. Do you really believe that the people are so simple that they dont realise that the Tories are the major party in this coalition. That the Tories gained seats on Thursday because people are so simple they blamed the Lib/Dems and not the Tories. The Lib/Dems have lost the anti Tory voters, that for some unknown reason seem betryed by the fact that they went into coalition in the first place. When people put their X by the Lib/Dems did they not understand that Nick Clegg said that he would talk to whoever had the most seats. Are Lib/Dem's so simple that they didn't realise that this could be the Tory party?

 

Clegg was asked time and time again before the coalition who he would deal with, his answer was "whoever has the most seats".Why therefore are they throwing their sandals around in a fit of temper.

 

If anyone is using Clegg as a human shield it is the Sandal wearers who are getting cold feet about being judged on their performance and their promises. Dont forget Clegg didn't enter into this agreement against the wishes of his party, but after activists overwhelmingly backed it at a special conference.The parts of the Country that backed Tory party on Thursday, did so, not because the Lib/Dems were their human shield but because they backed their policies and know what they stand for.

 

People vote for the Lib Dems as a protest or as an alternative where their party can't win, so it's no surprise they are polling so low.. They've been begging for a share of power for years, now they've got it, their not up to it.

[Barry the Badger]

Clegg and the lib-dems are turncoats. They promised no tuition fee rises and then promptly voted with the tories. Whether or not you think the policy is right - I happen to believe that it is - there is no getting around that they promised one thing and then did the exact opposite. They are unfit for office.

 

They promised no tuition fees if they won the election.

 

I honestly don't know what people expect them to do. It's a coalition, compromises have to be made.

[solentstars]

I cant believe people are surprised about this; The Lib/Dems have been the most unscrupulous of parties for a number of years, saying different things to different voters at every election. They run a completely different campaigns and stand for completely different policies in Tory areas than they do in Labour areas and always have done. They fight the dirtest of any party, witness Simon Hughes' disgraceful homophobic attack on Peter Tatchell all those years ago (described as the "the dirtiest and most notorious by-election in British political history" ).Surely it's obvious to everyone that once they got into bed with the Tory they would lose left wing support, just as much as if they had got into bed with labour would lose right wing support. I'm glad they've been shown up for what they are, a rabble who will do anything for power. They were a protest vote, but now they're in power have lost the only reason for voting for them. They'll now tear themselves apart over the coming years, with some joining the Tories, some returning to Labour and the sandal wearing rest, ending up with a dozen MP's in our 2 party system.

 

2 party system "oh dear "saying different things to different voters at every election just like labour and torys then.

[solentstars]

They promised no tuition fees if they won the election.

 

I honestly don't know what people expect them to do. It's a coalition, compromises have to be made.

true they did not win the election hence they had to comprise with the torys who had the most seats.

[Lord Duckhunter]

They promised no tuition fees if they won the election.

 

I honestly don't know what people expect them to do. It's a coalition, compromises have to be made.

 

Unlike Labour who had a manifesto pledge not to, won the election outright and then went ahead and broke that pledge. Dont you just love the double standards of Labour attacking the Lib/Dems over this.

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 party system "oh dear "saying different things to different voters at every election just like labour and torys then.

 

Lib/Dems fight Labour seats to the left and Tory seats to the right. The two main parties tend to stay between the centre and their core base.

[SuperMikey]

Agreed, but Huhne and Cable aren't happy at all with being in power alongside the Tories. I think Clegg would rather break up the coalition than lose those 2 from the party, so we might see our beloved ConDem government break up before too long.

[bridge too far]

Agreed, but Huhne and Cable aren't happy at all with being in power alongside the Tories. I think Clegg would rather break up the coalition than lose those 2 from the party, so we might see our beloved ConDem government break up before too long.

 

I think, too, that Huhne is positioning himself for a possible leadership campaign.

 

I've noticed before at PMQs, but it was VERY apparent last week, that Clegg looks very uncomfortable sitting next to DC. I wonder, can the LibDems just walk away from the coalition without the need for a General Election? Can they just oppose the Tories and side with Labour?

[Special K]

Agreed, but Huhne and Cable aren't happy at all with being in power alongside the Tories. I think Clegg would rather break up the coalition than lose those 2 from the party, so we might see our beloved ConDem government break up before too long.

 

Which with the LD's no more popular than the sh!te on the bottom of my shoe atm, any election within the next 18 months would see those two on the other side of the house. cutting off their nose to spite their face perhaps?

[solentstars]

Which with the LD's no more popular than the sh!te on the bottom of my shoe atm, any election within the next 18 months would see those two on the other side of the house. cutting off their nose to spite their face perhaps?

no one can predict the future and in 6 months time things can change, i can remember thatchers government being vastly unpopular after their mismanagement of the economy in their first term of office and getting ready to be thrown out of office and then the falklands war happened.

[trousers]

They promised no tuition fees if they won the election.

 

I honestly don't know what people expect them to do. It's a coalition, compromises have to be made.

 

I've been telling people this VERY simple fact for months now but through either ignorance or arrogance it doesn't sink in.

 

Why people choose not to understand that election pledges are what a party would do if they win an overall majority is beyond me. These pledges are not what they would do if part of a coalition.

 

Perhaps it's TOO simple for people to grasp as it most certainly isn't complicated.

[eurosaint]

I think, too, that Huhne is positioning himself for a possible leadership campaign.

 

I've noticed before at PMQs, but it was VERY apparent last week, that Clegg looks very uncomfortable sitting next to DC. I wonder, can the LibDems just walk away from the coalition without the need for a General Election? Can they just oppose the Tories and side with Labour?

 

I'm sure that they are at liberty to vote down any motion they choose, it's just that so far both parties have sided with each other on all the key issues (rightly or wrongly, but no doubt just to preserve the coalition!).

BTW I am impressed with the contributions on this thread, sensible and objective in the main !!

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

I wonder, can the LibDems just walk away from the coalition without the need for a General Election? Can they just oppose the Tories and side with Labour?

 

If they want to commit political suicide they can.

 

Provided the Tory’s stick to the coalition agreement they are bedded in for 5 years. They made a big play of this being a 5 year plan, have spent 40 years+ telling everyone that we need parties to work together. The only hope they have is a buoyant economy in 5 years time and the chance to say to people that they curbed the Tory excess, and took a lead in bringing about a recovery. There can be nothing worse than them abandoning the coalition on the back of poor local election results.

 

History has shown that when the party with the most seats asks the British people for a mandate with an early election, they tend to get it. there is no way the Lib/Dems want an election now, they’d end up with a handful of seats. If they withdrew the Tory's would limp on with a confidence and supply agreement, before going to the Country.

 

Provided the Tory party stick to the coalition agreement, the Lib/Dems can not turn round and say “we’ve changed our mind”, they will pay a massive price for that.The Tory party aren’t stupid, they’ll stick to that agreement however much Cable and the other clowns try to manufactory splits.

[solentstars]

If they want to commit political suicide they can.

 

Provided the Tory’s stick to the coalition agreement they are bedded in for 5 years. They made a big play of this being a 5 year plan, have spent 40 years+ telling everyone that we need parties to work together. The only hope they have is a buoyant economy in 5 years time and the chance to say to people that they curbed the Tory excess, and took a lead in bringing about a recovery. There can be nothing worse than them abandoning the coalition on the back of poor local election results.

 

History has shown that when the party with the most seats asks the British people for a mandate with an early election, they tend to get it. there is no way the Lib/Dems want an election now, they’d end up with a handful of seats. If they withdrew the Tory's would limp on with a confidence and supply agreement, before going to the Country.

 

Provided the Tory party stick to the coalition agreement, the Lib/Dems can not turn round and say “we’ve changed our mind”, they will pay a massive price for that.The Tory party aren’t stupid, they’ll stick to that agreement however much Cable and the other clowns try to manufactory splits.

i think they will stick to the agreement despite the tory hard right and some libs and labour trying to undermine and split the coalition.

[bridge too far]

Yep Lord D - I see what you're saying.

 

But, on a practical level, can the LDs actually choose to side with Labour in spite of the coalition agreement. Let's say for example that the Tories decide to go ahead with their mad NHS reforms. Clegg has, today, said he will not allow the original reforms to go ahead. Suppose the Tories, nonetheless, put the Bill forward.

 

There's nothing, is there, to stop all the LD MPs opposing the bill and, by effectively siding with Labour, defeating the Bill?

 

I'm genuinely intrigued to know if this COULD happen in theory?

[Lord Duckhunter]

Yep Lord D - I see what you're saying.

 

But, on a practical level, can the LDs actually choose to side with Labour in spite of the coalition agreement. Let's say for example that the Tories decide to go ahead with their mad NHS reforms. Clegg has, today, said he will not allow the original reforms to go ahead. Suppose the Tories, nonetheless, put the Bill forward.

 

There's nothing, is there, to stop all the LD MPs opposing the bill and, by effectively siding with Labour, defeating the Bill?

 

I'm genuinely intrigued to know if this COULD happen in theory?

 

It could because the reforms are not in the coalition agreement. However, my feeling is that the Torys wont be pushing this too far because of that.

 

If they do leave early, how can their next leader (who wont be Clegg) say that he'll deal with any party and that the Country needs parties to work together. The Lib/Dems can only govern as part of a coalition, if the first one fails, they wont get another chance. They have to make it work.

 

 

They can not oppose anything in the agreement without Cameron making it a confidence issue and if he losses seeking a mandate.

Edited 8 May, 2011 by Lord Duckhunter

[scotty]

Clegg and the lib-dems are turncoats. They promised no tuition fee rises and then promptly voted with the tories. Whether or not you think the policy is right - I happen to believe that it is - there is no getting around that they promised one thing and then did the exact opposite. They are unfit for office.

 

They promised that if they were elected as the government.

 

They were not elected as the government.

 

What would you have preferred after the election failed to produce a clear winner? 250 days and counting without a government, like the belgians? We werent exactly in a strong position economically. I think Clegg did the right thing myself and damaged himself and his party in the process, and probably did it knowing that would be the case.

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

What would you have preferred after the election failed to produce a clear winner? 250 days and counting without a government, like the belgians?

 

Well said..., what on earth did people expect them to do. They have spent years and years telling us that Parties have to work together, that they want a new type of politics,are they then expected to turn round and say "we only meant with Labour". Clegg said time and time again he would work with either party. Had they not gone in with a coalition, 6 months down the line we'd have had another election, and a Tory majority.

[Thedelldays]

if this is a sniff of what PR and the like would be like...then you can shove it.

 

so many people want it to fail and are *****ing the clegg cant implement every single thing he wanted/said

[solentstars]

Yep Lord D - I see what you're saying.

 

But, on a practical level, can the LDs actually choose to side with Labour in spite of the coalition agreement. Let's say for example that the Tories decide to go ahead with their mad NHS reforms. Clegg has, today, said he will not allow the original reforms to go ahead. Suppose the Tories, nonetheless, put the Bill forward.

 

There's nothing, is there, to stop all the LD MPs opposing the bill and, by effectively siding with Labour, defeating the Bill?

 

I'm genuinely intrigued to know if this COULD happen in theory?

yes but to be fair alot of torys oppose the nhs reform bill and it their will be alot of changes before it comes to a vote and i cameron is a supporter of the nhs,

[woodfc]

Lib Dems took an all round bashing last week . . . but not in Eastleigh and Portsmouth.

 

Any particular reason why not?

[solentstars]

if this is a sniff of what PR and the like would be like...then you can shove it.

logan politics

so many people want it to fail and are *****ing the clegg cant implement every single thing he wanted/said

well at the moment we have a coalition under fptp system and we are more used to divide and rule politics and it will take awhile for some people to understand you can work together for the national interest rather than partisan winner takes all self interest politics .

[bridge too far]

Lib Dems took an all round bashing last week . . . but not in Eastleigh and Portsmouth.

 

Any particular reason why not?

 

Maybe because, years ago, both towns were Labour strongholds and distrust of the Tories runs deep?

[Wilko]

Before the general election, people thought they knew what the Lib Dems stood for. Now, it isn't so clear. However, they are proving their commitment to pluralism, which has always been one of their key principles. It's probably best to wait until the next general election before making up one's mind about whether to give them another shot. Things might be very different then.

[woodfc]

Maybe because, years ago, both towns were Labour strongholds and distrust of the Tories runs deep?

 

So why change from Labour?

[bridge too far]

So why change from Labour?

 

Was just discussing this with Mr TF only this afternoon. I used to be a very active Labour party member in Eastleigh back in the day (even stood for the local council but didn't stand a chance, standing in Chandler's Ford lol).

 

In those days, the railway carriage building works were still flourishing as was Pirelli's to name but two large local employers. With their demise, I suppose the makeup of the electorate is different.

 

Don't know so much about Portsmouth but maybe again local manufacturing industries aren't so much in evidence?

[The Cat]

So why change from Labour?

 

Eastleigh was solidly Tory until the 1994 by-election triggered by the then MP Stephen Milligan bunging on a pair of tights and asphyxiating himself on a lemon. Lib Dems won the by-election and it's been theirs ever since.

 

In 2005 Chris Huhne was elected here for the first time, taking over from David Chidgey, and squeezed home by around 600 votes from the Tories. He increased his majority to almost 4000 in the last election. Living in Hamble, their support here is really strong for a couple of reasons. One is the low council tax we pay, second is the fact the Tory-led Hampshire County Council want to have gravel pits here, something that locals are obviously against. However I don't know why they won every borough in Eastleigh in the council elections last week.

 

Interestingly in the 1994 by election, Nigel Farage of the then new party UKIP only polled 170 more votes than Screaming Lord Sutch!

[woodfc]

Yes the Labour vote certainly has coincided with the loss of local manufacturing, but why would this change peoples voting habits which have been ingrained over decades?

 

Fair play to you standing in Chandlers Ford representing Labour!

[Saint in Paradise]

Didn't there used to be a poster on here who was really involved with those Lib/Dems ?

I wonder what they think of this situation ?

 

 

.

[woodfc]

Oh Yes ... Stephen Milligan!!!

[bridge too far]

Yes the Labour vote certainly has coincided with the loss of local manufacturing, but why would this change peoples voting habits which have been ingrained over decades?

 

Fair play to you standing in Chandlers Ford representing Labour!

 

I don't know the answer and I don't live in the area any more but I would guess that a lot of the workers in the local manufacturing firms moved away to find jobs and were replaced by more *sigh cos I hate the words* middle class families working in the service sector.

[woodfc]

Take that nationally . . . Where does it leave us?

[pap]

They showed a good measure of themselves during their recent changes in leadership. They turfed Charles Kennedy out for being too fond of the sauce, which while a little grubby, was understandable. Equally understandable, and even more grubby, was the way that senior Lib Dems conspired to ditch Ming Campbell because he was too old.

 

I don't get a clear idea of what they stand for, save what Lord D mentions, getting the protest vote. Making bold claims that you know you'll never going to fulfil is one thing. Having to deliver them is something else, and they're perceived as having failed on delivery. They try to worm out of their promises by saying "well, this is a coalition, we can't implement every policy or promise". Er, yeah. No-one was actually expecting the Lib Dems to win a general election. What exactly were they expecting? If they are going to print fanciful promises based on the slim prospect of securing majority government they might at least be creative. "We believe that is right that everyone with the first name of Brian shall become a knight of the realm, armed with government issued jousting equipment".

 

At present, the Lib Dems haven't implemented any of their manifesto promises, and have gone back on their word on issues like tuition fees. Saying what people want to hear is one thing. Implementing it is nigh on impossible, and the Lib Dems are finding this out the hard way. Rightfully so, imo.

[thefunkygibbons]

Interesting article in the telegraph today, and probably right that the Lib Dems salvation lies in returning to the left

[Special K]

Interesting article in the telegraph today, and probably right that the Lib Dems salvation lies in returning to the left

 

But isn't UK politics so centrist these days as to make a fundemental shift to the left nigh on impossible? There is no real ideological difference between the main parties these days, mostly political posturing by the parties which tries to just appeal to the biggest number of voters they can. More often they come up with the same sort of policies and slide along the left-right scale depending on the party line. Blunkett was on of the most right wing Home Sec's during his tenure and that's from a dyed in the wool socialist. Multinational business has more influence in politics as each day passes and as image replaces (or has replaced??!) political value, the LD's may well see themselves in the wilderness again once the coalition has gone.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

But isn't UK politics so centrist these days as to make a fundemental shift to the left nigh on impossible? There is no real ideological difference between the main parties these days, mostly political posturing by the parties which tries to just appeal to the biggest number of voters they can. More often they come up with the same sort of policies and slide along the left-right scale depending on the party line. Blunkett was on of the most right wing Home Sec's during his tenure and that's from a dyed in the wool socialist. Multinational business has more influence in politics as each day passes and as image replaces (or has replaced??!) political value, the LD's may well see themselves in the wilderness again once the coalition has gone.

 

A balanced view and I think, like you, that once the tories sense they can win, alone, they will call the shot and dump the bed hoppers.

[bridge too far]

But isn't UK politics so centrist these days as to make a fundemental shift to the left nigh on impossible? There is no real ideological difference between the main parties these days, mostly political posturing by the parties which tries to just appeal to the biggest number of voters they can. More often they come up with the same sort of policies and slide along the left-right scale depending on the party line. Blunkett was on of the most right wing Home Sec's during his tenure and that's from a dyed in the wool socialist. Multinational business has more influence in politics as each day passes and as image replaces (or has replaced??!) political value, the LD's may well see themselves in the wilderness again once the coalition has gone.

 

I would take issue with you on this statement. You may well be right about parties once they're in government / opposition but I think you'll find that the grass roots activists have VERY different ideological views.

 

But I do agree with you re multinationals. It's unsettling, isn't it, when money and power have more control and effect than the electorate?

[pap]

But I do agree with you re multinationals. It's unsettling, isn't it, when money and power have more control and effect than the electorate?

 

It's inevitable. Unlike our governments, multi-nationals don't have the burden of replacing their entire management team every five years. A government is inherently temporary; it's the institutions that persist between Parliaments that wield the real power.

[franny]

I wonder what view the country would have had of the Lib Dems now if say their key deliverable they had won fron the coalition talks had been no increase in Uni fees rather than the AV referendum. I suspect their stock would have been much higher since the uni fees affect peoples pockets and is now there for all to see as a "broken promise" and had they stuck to theor guns would have also been seen as fighting on a matter of principle for the less well off that they had as non negotiable. Whereas the AV was for the most part something the country was not clamouting for (and most people who voted clearly didnt want) and I am sure it was seen by many as a self interest motion.

Basically their negotiating team strategists got that balance totally wrong - do I screw the electorate over fees or try and enhance my opportunity get power!

[Joensuu]

The Lib Dems were in a mess from the second they agreed to a coalition. Their only sensible option was to abstain, and let Cameron form a minority government.

 

Lib Dem voters were increadibly dissapointed with the coalition agreement, and would only have found it acceptable had the Lib Dems managed to exact a much greater reward from the Tories. IMO, a fully supported, and whipped passing of PR through the Commons would have kept the Lib Dem voters on-board.

 

As it is, Lib Dem voters feel that their party hasn't achieved anything positive from the current coalition. They are angry with the leadership for having sold the party's strong principles. While some liberal voters are borderline Labour supporters (and a handful are close to the liberal wing of the Tory party), most liberal voters would find voting for either party objectionable. The Green party is likely to benefit the most from the Lib Dems implosion (if only we had a Green candidate here).

 

The one redeming factor for the Lib Dems is that most blame isn't directed at the party, but is instead pinned on Clegg's shoulders. Oust Clegg, and the half of the voters who have abandoned the Lib Dems will probably return.

[franny]

 

The one redeming factor for the Lib Dems is that most blame isn't directed at the party, but is instead pinned on Clegg's shoulders. Oust Clegg, and the half of the voters who have abandoned the Lib Dems will probably return.

 

I think you are right but it does show how fickle people are, 12 months ago he was according to some gods gift to politics, his party at a special conference (if I remember correctly) endorsed the coaliiton agreement which was probably set up not by him but his negotiaoting team anyway and now he is a pariah!

[scotty]

Eastleigh was solidly Tory until the 1994 by-election triggered by the then MP Stephen Milligan bunging on a pair of tights and asphyxiating himself on a lemon. Lib Dems won the by-election and it's been theirs ever since.

 

In 2005 Chris Huhne was elected here for the first time, taking over from David Chidgey, and squeezed home by around 600 votes from the Tories. He increased his majority to almost 4000 in the last election. Living in Hamble, their support here is really strong for a couple of reasons. One is the low council tax we pay, second is the fact the Tory-led Hampshire County Council want to have gravel pits here, something that locals are obviously against. However I don't know why they won every borough in Eastleigh in the council elections last week.

 

Interestingly in the 1994 by election, Nigel Farage of the then new party UKIP only polled 170 more votes than Screaming Lord Sutch!

 

This type of post really drives me mad.

 

The sheer, lazy inaccuracy of it :x:x:x

 

IT WASNT A LEMON, YOU FOOL, IT WAS A BIT OF SATSUMA WRAPPED IN ORANGE PEEL!!!!!!

 

FFS