alpine_saint Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 I don't think that's fickle, if anything that's being consistent. Being fickle would be thumping the keyboard last summer saying, "Why are they ****ing around, sign him up now etc etc etc?", and then this summer saying, "No great loss, he was only playing for the contract etc etc etc". Yep, completely agree. Some people should be ashamed. Supporting the new regime is one thing, blithey accepting the Gopsel they send down from Mount Siani over every issue is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 Yep, completely agree. Some people should be ashamed. Supporting the new regime is one thing, blithey accepting the Gopsel they send down from Mount Siani over every issue is ridiculous. Totally agree it is the blind allegiance which confounds me. I really believe that youngsters should be given a chance but to have a chance they need experience around them on the pitch. A few injuries/suspensions could lead to the whole starting 11 being untried youngsters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 Why dont some people realise the two things go hand-in-hand ? He can achieve short-term solvency by flogging off our decent players, but when the poor results cause the early optimisim to evaporate and the attendances plummet, there will still be issues to answer for to the creditors. the books have to balance first, we can only have the players we can afford. Its not complicated. To make it easier to understand, would it make sense to sign top premiership players we can't afford on the basis that we may get better results, crowds and promotion but then go bust? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 the books have to balance first, we can only have the players we can afford. Its not complicated. To make it easier to understand, would it make sense to sign top premiership players we can't afford on the basis that we may get better results, crowds and promotion but then go bust? I would like to think that most people now understand the perilous financial situation we now find ourselves in, but there also has to be a balance between slashing & burning and getting the mix right. I could could get you a team with a wage bill of under £1m, which would solve the Club's financial problems (in the short term anyway), but their results would make Derby's Premiership points score look mammoth. Any fool (or accountant) can cut costs, but those that are worth their corn will ensure that the company has enough not only to survive, but to propser going forward. The big question is have the current lot got the nous to do the latter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 we do not know where the balance lies so unfortunately have to trust those who do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 the books have to balance first, we can only have the players we can afford. Its not complicated. To make it easier to understand, would it make sense to sign top premiership players we can't afford on the basis that we may get better results, crowds and promotion but then go bust? NickG I too do not understand these posts regarding keeping expensive players. We are indeed in serious financial trouble and we are not going to get promoted for some time so as long as we remain in the Championship I do not see there is a real problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 I would like to think that most people now understand the perilous financial situation we now find ourselves in, but there also has to be a balance between slashing & burning and getting the mix right. I could could get you a team with a wage bill of under £1m, which would solve the Club's financial problems (in the short term anyway), but their results would make Derby's Premiership points score look mammoth. Any fool (or accountant) can cut costs, but those that are worth their corn will ensure that the company has enough not only to survive, but to propser going forward. The big question is have the current lot got the nous to do the latter? That could be said about most clubs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 we do not know where the balance lies so unfortunately have to trust those who do And therein lies the crux of the problem for me, in that I find it very difficult to trust individuals who between them so spectacularly fkuced it up last time around. The manager, players and Club will get my support, that's always comes without any reservations, but that doesn't mean that I don't have massive doubts over those in control (and for very good reasons IMHO). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0108787 Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 I would like to think that most people now understand the perilous financial situation we now find ourselves in, but there also has to be a balance between slashing & burning and getting the mix right. I could could get you a team with a wage bill of under £1m, which would solve the Club's financial problems (in the short term anyway), but their results would make Derby's Premiership points score look mammoth. Any fool (or accountant) can cut costs, but those that are worth their corn will ensure that the company has enough not only to survive, but to propser going forward. The big question is have the current lot got the nous to do the latter? Have none of you lot been to see our youngsters play, or are you actually blind? We are in NO danger of going down. We WILL to better than last season FACT. I will go to the bookies and put money on us making the playoffs this season. And before anyone starts, i'm not following the "new regime" blindly, i'm judging on what i've seen with my own eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurosaint Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 Have none of you lot been to see our youngsters play, or are you actually blind? We are in NO danger of going down. We WILL to better than last season FACT. I will go to the bookies and put money on us making the playoffs this season. And before anyone starts, i'm not following the "new regime" blindly, i'm judging on what i've seen with my own eyes. Reasons to be cheerful, part 1 ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0108787 Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 Reasons to be cheerful, part 1 ! Damn right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toofarnorth Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 We all know where we are financially and the need to trim wages. Hopefully this will get him some exposure so a larger fee will be forthcoming in January. Same with Rasiak as far as i'm concerned. I still think John should be the first choice lone striker and I hope we see this happen after the Cardiff game as he did well for us last season. Obviously if McG does well on Saturday I may have to change my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 We all know where we are financially and the need to trim wages. Hopefully this will get him some exposure so a larger fee will be forthcoming in January. Same with Rasiak as far as i'm concerned. I still think John should be the first choice lone striker and I hope we see this happen after the Cardiff game as he did well for us last season. Obviously if McG does well on Saturday I may have to change my mind. Problem with Stern is he is not mobile enough for the style we are trying to play, his control is not brilliant and players making runs past him will be exposed if he cannot control and pass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 the books have to balance first, we can only have the players we can afford. Its not complicated. To make it easier to understand, would it make sense to sign top premiership players we can't afford on the basis that we may get better results, crowds and promotion but then go bust? Jesus, why is it so difficult to understand that low costs with low revenue is no better than higher costs with higher revenue ?? There is a colossally arrogant assumption doing the rounds that Lowe can slash and burn yet still rely on the same revenue whatever the results. Where this comes from, heaven knows, but its ridiculous.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 We will miss his three goals...(in about 30 games). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 we do not know where the balance lies so unfortunately have to trust those who do Wow, trust Lowe who managed to turn a silk purse into a sow's ear, and trust Wilde who is away with the fairies. I'm convinced... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 Jesus, why is it so difficult to understand that low costs with low revenue is no better than higher costs with higher revenue ?? There is a colossally arrogant assumption doing the rounds that Lowe can slash and burn yet still rely on the same revenue whatever the results. Where this comes from, heaven knows, but its ridiculous.. a very true statement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 We will miss his three goals...(in about 30 games). Maybe we will miss his 10-odd goals in 11 games more.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 Maybe we will miss his 10-odd goals in 11 games more.... That was two years ago, get real he was ****e last season and is one of our biggest earners. Since he signed permanently he showed absolutely no signs of reaching the form of that small spell, and JP pretty much said he doesnt seem to bothered to try and do so, but I'm sure he was happy picking up his decent wage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 That was two years ago, get real he was ****e last season and is one of our biggest earners. Since he signed permanently he showed absolutely no signs of reaching the form of that small spell, and JP pretty much said he doesnt seem to bothered to try and do so, but I'm sure he was happy picking up his decent wage... He was cack last season (one amongst many) due to ****-poor man-management demotivating him. Step forward, Mr. Burley.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 That was two years ago, get real he was ****e last season and is one of our biggest earners. Since he signed permanently he showed absolutely no signs of reaching the form of that small spell, and JP pretty much said he doesnt seem to bothered to try and do so, but I'm sure he was happy picking up his decent wage... Burley isolated him, didn't pick him and his confidence suffered as a result. His form at the end of the previous year proves he had it in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 Yep, completely agree. Some people should be ashamed. Supporting the new regime is one thing, blithey accepting the Gopsel they send down from Mount Siani over every issue is ridiculous. Spelling aside I am very much in accord with these sentiments. It seems sometimes on this forum unless you shower the club with oodles of support amid a barrage of tub thumping "get behind the lads ffs" you have no right being on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicko Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 I'm not too upset to see Saga go. He's one of our highest earners, and with only 3 goals last season, he can be easily replaced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hacienda Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 He's one of our highest earners, and with only 3 goals last season, he can be easily replaced I await to be convinced on that front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0108787 Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 Jesus, why is it so difficult to understand that low costs with low revenue is no better than higher costs with higher revenue ?? There is a colossally arrogant assumption doing the rounds that Lowe can slash and burn yet still rely on the same revenue whatever the results. Where this comes from, heaven knows, but its ridiculous.. That is a given... ...we'd all best get along and start supporting the youngsters that play fast, attractive, passing football with the enthusiam and desire that we have been missing for so long then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 I'm not too upset to see Saga go. He's one of our highest earners, and with only 3 goals last season, he can be easily replaced Yes, dead easy to replace a player who was picked to play for his National team at the European finals. We've got any number of youngsters better than him already at the club. Most of our youth are better than most of the Polish national team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesaint sfc Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 F*ck sake I have to change my avatar now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 I'm not too upset to see Saga go. He's one of our highest earners, and with only 3 goals last season, he can be easily replaced Easily ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0108787 Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 Yes, dead easy to replace a player who was picked to play for his National team at the European finals. We've got any number of youngsters better than him already at the club. Most of our youth are better than most of the Polish national team. The ONLY point of reference when comparing saga with others is his performance for us. His ability is not necessarily in question, his performances for Poland are not in question. His performance for us ARE. We wont miss something we didn't have (last season he did sod all - this season we will not miss him doing sod all). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekelund24 Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 He was cack last season (one amongst many) due to ****-poor man-management demotivating him. Step forward, Mr. Burley.. Last season his performances were poor, although I do take your point that he barely played and that was down to the random selection policy of GB, however, a decent player would gut it out train harder and force his way into the team. An example of this would be the James Beattie that came back into the team after a poor start to the 2002-03 season and scored 24 league goals by working his ass off and improving to become the top scoring English striker in the league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 The ONLY point of reference when comparing saga with others is his performance for us. His ability is not necessarily in question, his performances for Poland are not in question. His performance for us ARE. We wont miss something we didn't have (last season he did sod all - this season we will not miss him doing sod all). I disagree. The fact that he is selected by his country demonstrates that he does have the quality to play at the top level. As has been argued by others, there may be several factors as to why he did not produce the goods for us last season. For a start, he only made 14 starts and 16 appearances from the bench. During last season, Burley made many switches between the strikers, trying to find the best combination. I don't think that he had made that decision even at the time that he left. A settled partnership develops an understanding, whereas Burley's constant tinkering never allowed any of our strikers to settle into a rhythm and sapped their confidence. It isn't clear whether Poortvliet didn't consider him as an itegral part of his plans because he could not play his new system, or whether it had more to do with the fact that we needed to get somebody else to either buy him or pay his wages. I suspect the latter has much to do with any decision currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0108787 Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 I disagree. The fact that he is selected by his country demonstrates that he does have the quality to play at the top level. As has been argued by others, there may be several factors as to why he did not produce the goods for us last season. For a start, he only made 14 starts and 16 appearances from the bench. During last season, Burley made many switches between the strikers, trying to find the best combination. I don't think that he had made that decision even at the time that he left. A settled partnership develops an understanding, whereas Burley's constant tinkering never allowed any of our strikers to settle into a rhythm and sapped their confidence. It isn't clear whether Poortvliet didn't consider him as an itegral part of his plans because he could not play his new system, or whether it had more to do with the fact that we needed to get somebody else to either buy him or pay his wages. I suspect the latter has much to do with any decision currently. This is something Lallana and McGoldrick already have - we do not need Saga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouchi Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 I thought Saga was a premiership quality player when he arrived, but he lost all confidence and the goalscoring threat last season, and now finds himself in a similar position to the one he was in at his last French club before we came in. I have seen the youngsters play ONCE in the academy play off a few years back, when their play was astonishing, zipping the ball around in groups of 3 before delivering to the goal machine DMG. Whether they can produce this consistently against CCC opposition is the big question. We continue to get rid of reasonable players who might be effective, and this is only because of the money. All very high risk, but it's almost as exciting as buying 6 or 7 new players and seeing how they do. It's got to be worth a try, there will still be plenty of journeymen out there if it has gone pear-shaped by Christmas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokingFun Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 Lowe wants maximum shop-front exposure for the youngsters just in case a couple shape up and become decent players... Still not convinced bringing back the good times at SFC is high priority for him.... Correct it is probably not but making sure we can regain financial stability is and the facts are that we were discussing Saga's terms last season for ages which normally means we had to pay big bucks. No great loss IMO and I would definitely keep Stern John over Saga as John is more effective even if he does not run around quite as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokingFun Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 Why dont some people realise the two things go hand-in-hand ? He can achieve short-term solvency by flogging off our decent players, but when the poor results cause the early optimisim to evaporate and the attendances plummet, there will still be issues to answer for to the creditors. Why can't you understand that the bank will require short and long term solvency and will not give a **** about out ability to compete on the football field. Anyway, who is to say our results will be so bad that relegation is a formality. I think there will be worse teams than us in the CCC from what we have seen in the last couple of games. We won't achieve the play offs but equally it is not certain that we will be relegation fodder either. Time to wait and see.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hacienda Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 This is something Lallana and McGoldrick already have - we do not need Saga I wouldn't be so sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 Burley isolated him, didn't pick him and his confidence suffered as a result. His form at the end of the previous year proves he had it in him. I was one of the few who questioned his ability even when he first came.He missed a couple of sitters in the first leg of the play offs. When he was playing for his contract he showed a lot more, as soon as the contract was signed he lost his zest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 This is something Lallana and McGoldrick already have - we do not need Saga Agreed that Lallana and McGoldrick have an understanding; that was developed through playing together in the youth teams. But it is not as easy as stating that and saying QED. An understanding in the youth teams does not necessarily translate into the senior ranks. McGoldrick was scoring for fun with the youngsters, but seemed to be firing blanks last season most of the time and his confidence dried up as a result. Notice any similarity with the problem most likely associated with Saganowski? Lallana scored an incredible goal at the end of last season when Pearson gave him an outing, but hasn't exactly set the World on fire so far since. Perhaps he is the main one to provide the amunition for McGoldrick, but many believe that is precisely the role that might have suited Saga, with his good lively runs into and around the box. What happens if McGoldrick or Lallana are injured, or their goals dry up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offix Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 ....We WILL to better than last season FACT. I love it when opinion is confused with "fact" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0108787 Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 Agreed that Lallana and McGoldrick have an understanding; that was developed through playing together in the youth teams. But it is not as easy as stating that and saying QED. An understanding in the youth teams does not necessarily translate into the senior ranks. McGoldrick was scoring for fun with the youngsters, but seemed to be firing blanks last season most of the time and his confidence dried up as a result. Notice any similarity with the problem most likely associated with Saganowski? Lallana scored an incredible goal at the end of last season when Pearson gave him an outing, but hasn't exactly set the World on fire so far since. Perhaps he is the main one to provide the amunition for McGoldrick, but many believe that is precisely the role that might have suited Saga, with his good lively runs into and around the box. What happens if McGoldrick or Lallana are injured, or their goals dry up?[/QUOTE] Then we rely on Davies and Svensson to help us keep clean sheets and grind out results! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 Why can't you understand that the bank will require short and long term solvency and will not give a **** about out ability to compete on the football field. Anyway, who is to say our results will be so bad that relegation is a formality. I think there will be worse teams than us in the CCC from what we have seen in the last couple of games. We won't achieve the play offs but equally it is not certain that we will be relegation fodder either. Time to wait and see.. So you reckon the status quo from last season's acheivements basically, with our cost base, is enough to keep our heads above water long-term and satisfy both banks and supporters ? Riiighttt....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctoroncall Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 I disagree. The fact that he is selected by his country demonstrates that he does have the quality to play at the top level. As has been argued by others, there may be several factors as to why he did not produce the goods for us last season. For a start, he only made 14 starts and 16 appearances from the bench. During last season, Burley made many switches between the strikers, trying to find the best combination. I don't think that he had made that decision even at the time that he left. A settled partnership develops an understanding, whereas Burley's constant tinkering never allowed any of our strikers to settle into a rhythm and sapped their confidence. It isn't clear whether Poortvliet didn't consider him as an itegral part of his plans because he could not play his new system, or whether it had more to do with the fact that we needed to get somebody else to either buy him or pay his wages. I suspect the latter has much to do with any decision currently. Have to agree with your analysis Wes, and I suspect certain players are as fickle as some us fans! I'm sure he found it hard to deal with the situation when out of the first team, selected occassional, played with a different strike partner or played a different role last season. I would imagine the exit plan of players was set by the plc and given to JP based solely on financial aspects, although it would be nice to think he had some input on what players could not fit into the system and be sold. What is at risk is if plan A of McGoldrick fails or is injured only John is available when Rasiak has left unless we try another youngster to fire in the goals. How do you balance cost against results on the pitch when in the financial mire? With regard to "low costs with low revenue is no better than higher costs with higher revenue", the differential is likely to be greater the higher the turnover so I wouldn't say it's the same financial position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0108787 Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 So you reckon the status quo from last season's acheivements basically, with our cost base, is enough to keep our heads above water long-term and satisfy both banks and supporters ? Riiighttt....... I think he's saying the youngsters might suprise you, time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokingFun Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 Jesus, why is it so difficult to understand that low costs with low revenue is no better than higher costs with higher revenue ?? There is a colossally arrogant assumption doing the rounds that Lowe can slash and burn yet still rely on the same revenue whatever the results. Where this comes from, heaven knows, but its ridiculous.. Apparently 21,000 tickets had been sold last week for the Brum game so that seems to suggest revenue might hold even though we are playing our non 'superstars' cough cough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokingFun Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 Wow, trust Lowe who managed to turn a silk purse into a sow's ear, and trust Wilde who is away with the fairies. I'm convinced... But who created the silk purse in the first place? Others were responsible for ****ing the money away not RL in fairness to him. Financially I think he has always managed the club pretty well. Football decisions in the relegation season were his downfall. So far, he seems to be going in the right direction again financially and I will see about the football after the first 5-10 results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokingFun Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 He was cack last season (one amongst many) due to ****-poor man-management demotivating him. Step forward, Mr. Burley.. Professionals should be able to motivate themselves as well Alpine. Saga was not played by Burley as BWP and John were in good form for a while. When he did get a chance he ran around a lot but created little and scored even less. Get your blinkers off FFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 Apparently 21,000 tickets had been sold last week for the Brum game so that seems to suggest revenue might hold even though we are playing our non 'superstars' cough cough. Brum 3800 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokingFun Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 So you reckon the status quo from last season's acheivements basically, with our cost base, is enough to keep our heads above water long-term and satisfy both banks and supporters ? Riiighttt....... Where did I say that Alpine? What I am saying is that Lowe will be working to a financial plan agreed with the bank and it will very likely factor in a further drop in revenue. That will satisfy the bank. At the moment most supporters seem to be satisfied enough with our progress under JP and are willing to keep an open mind regarding how well this young team can do. If the 21000 sold for Brum is actually correct then it strongly suggests that the support is holding up and may continue to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenridge Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 Professionals should be able to motivate themselves as well Alpine. Saga was not played by Burley as BWP and John were in good form for a while. When he did get a chance he ran around a lot but created little and scored even less. Get your blinkers off FFS. I take it you're referring to BWP. Maybe it is you with blinkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokingFun Posted 8 August, 2008 Share Posted 8 August, 2008 Brum 3800 OK, apologies if I have misread something but my sentiments remain that lowe will manage the financials assuming a further drop in revenue i expect to satisfy the bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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