Attendances this season

[The Cat]

Fair play to all those fans who have kept turning up for games week in week out for the past two seasons. I've enjoyed finding out who our real fans are, and it does seem that we have a lot more than I imagined we would in League 1.

 

I have no beef with the sort of football fans who don't really support Saints but live locally and want to turn up for a few games a season just to watch a game of football. It's the ones who claimed to be big fans but mysteriously disappeared when we dropped down to the 3rd tier that hack me off. Especially when they come crawling out the woodwork and start moaning they can't get an away ticket to Bournemouth or Brighton despite barely having graced St Mary's with their presence for 2 years.

 

Anything over 20000 is pretty impressive in League 1, and it's good to see us comparing favourably with other 'big' teams that have been in this league.

[jam]

So £40m to increase capacity by 8,000. £5,000 per seat. Repaid by 10 seasons of complete sell-outs, I guess, but still one hell of an investment if they end up going down...

 

Does higher capacity + attendance = higher sponsorship revenue?

[Sour Mash]

I think the Wolves expansion (not even 1000 seats, I think) is a temporary, uncovered section in the corner. They've got plans to rebuild at least two of the current stands, but I suspect that depends on them staying up.

 

Sunderland's upper tier wasn't there when they first built the Stadium of Light - that was added a couple of years later at considerable expense.

 

Rupert Lowe and Andrew Cowen's analysis of stadium expansion was always that while you could build a new stadium for around £1000 per seat, expanding that stadium further down the line would then cost £3000 per seat. That was in 2004/5, so it's probably even higher now. Adding 10,000 seats to SMS would more than double the cost of the original build of the stadium.

 

Yeah I think you're right re the Sunderland and Wolves "expansions". Think most clubs prefer the business model of if they're selling out, hike up the price as high as it'll go rather than bothering with any risk/cost/hassle of an expansion scheme.

[spyinthesky]

I like the idea of the 'Sporting Complex' as promoted by Hull

 

Would it work financially tho?

 

In principle you could see the Liebherrs buying the adjacent industrial estate, the Gasometers and part of the Itchen waterfront over time, and subject to availability/price etc

 

Would be great for the city and region

[doddisalegend]

There are predominantly four types of football match attendees:

 

1) Die-hards who will go as often as they can regardless of the quality level of the League we're in. It's their main hobby.

2) Fans who will go as often as they can but are restricted by other commitments. It's not their main hobby but they love Saints all the same.

3) People who like to watch a good game of football and have a soft spot for their local side. They tend to go for the games most likely to be the most entertaining.

4) 'Non-fans' who enjoy going to watch a game of football every now and again as a social activity. These will tend to be individuals or corporate customers who will tend to go for the more glamorous games because, again, they are going for the entertainment potential and the sense of 'occasion'

 

A football club needs all 4 types of 'customer' to thrive, especially in the higher leagues. Thus, the higher up the leagues we go, the more we should be striving to attract as many people in categories 3 & 4 as possible.

 

Simple as that.

 

OK that seems fair enough, but are there really another 20K of types 3-4 who haven't been turnning up at SMS the last few seasons but will flood back as soon as we make the PL?

[Matthew Le God]

OK that seems fair enough, but are there really another 20K of types 3-4 who haven't been turnning up at SMS the last few seasons but will flood back as soon as we make the PL?

 

Well we have had circa 30k for a few games as a 3rd tier side and already shown in four seasons in the Premier League the club can support averages of 30k+. So it isn't 20k extra you are looking for, it is about 10k (some of which would be taken up by larger away allocations).

Edited 4 May, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[stevegrant]

Does higher capacity + attendance = higher sponsorship revenue?

Not necessarily. Sponsorship is such an intangible product, and it's probably more closely linked with the press exposure the sponsor will achieve than the number of people who will see their name in the stadium.

[FarehamRed]

We had Gold, Silver and Bronze games at the Dell priced differently (i.e. Man Yoo, Villa and someone like Bolton IIRC). I assume they could do the same again.

[teamsaint]

So £40m to increase capacity by 8,000. £5,000 per seat. Repaid by 10 seasons of complete sell-outs, I guess, but still one hell of an investment if they end up going down...

 

quite. arsenal trophyless since their move..

[saintjinksie]

Our league attendances this season make some pretty impressive reading.

 

After 22 home league games our average attendance is 21,729.

 

Our total attendance over the course of the season is 478,042. Saturday's sell out means that we will exceed half a million on Saturday. Also, a crowd of around 30K will mean our average attendance for the season will rise above 22,000.

 

On three occasions in the league our attendance has exceeded 25,000 (against Bournemouth - 26289, Brighton - 26237 and Carlisle - 25076).

 

In only 5 league games has our attendance dropped below 20,000.

 

The highest attendance of the season came in the FA Cup game against Man Utd - 28792.

 

 

Here's looking forward to seeing those numbers continue to increase next year.

 

 

Assuming the prices dont go up by £100 plus...

[doddisalegend]

Well we have had circa 30k for a few games as a 3rd tier side and already shown in four seasons in the Premier League the club can support averages of 30k+. So it isn't 20k extra you are looking for, it is about 10k (some of which would be taken up by larger away allocations).

 

I was thinking more about expanding SMS if you're talking about going upto 45-50K we need at least another 20K fans to fill it. I just wonder if the fans are there for that. Undoubtly a small number of matches might attract trhat sort of number but on a regular basis?

[um pahars]

Sunderland's upper tier wasn't there when they first built the Stadium of Light - that was added a couple of years later at considerable expense.

 

Are you sure Mr Grant????

 

I'm positive that when I went there not long after it opened that there was an Upper Tier in the Main Stand (to the left of the away fans). There was an addition to the end opposite the away fans a few years later though making it two out of four stands with an upper tier.

[benjii]

Some people still don't understand what Cortese is doing here do they...?

 

If he is still here when we get to the Prem we will do something big.

[um pahars]

I'm just not that convinced about increasing the capacity by a sizeable amount as I'm not sure we have the fanbase to fill a 40,000 ground on a regular basis (I'm sure initially for some of the big games we would, but for Wigan, Bolton, Fulham, Wolves????? I'm not even sure of "middle ranking" teams like Everton, Villa etc). With hindsight, perhaps halfway between the two (say 36,000) would have been good.

 

And just think what a paddy we would be having now if the 24,000 "Stoneham Stadium" came off???????

Edited 4 May, 2011 by um pahars

[stevegrant]

Are you sure Mr Grant????

 

I'm positive that when I went there not long after it opened that there was an Upper Tier in the Main Stand (to the left of the away fans). There was an addition to the end opposite the away fans a few years later though making it two out of four stands with an upper tier.

You might be right there - I know that at least part of that upper tier was added afterwards, assumed it was all of it as it looks really strange and not the sort of thing I'd have imagined being incorporated into the original design.

[teamsaint]

I'm just not that convinced about increasing the capacity by a sizeable amount as I'm not sure we have the fanbase to fill a 40,000 ground on a regular basis (I'm sure initially for some of the big games we would, but for Wigan, Bolton, Fulham, Wolves????? I'm not even sure of "middle ranking" teams like Everton, Villa etc). With hindsight, perhaps halfway between the two (say 36,000) would have been good.

 

And just think what a paddy we would be having now if the 24,000 "Stoneham Stadium" came off???????

 

I am pretty sceptical about expansion.

i never had a ST at SMS when we were in the PL....and I never missed a game because i couldn't buy a ticket. The closest i came to missing out was a game against Chelsea which sold out by lunchtime on the first day of sales.

For most matches there were tickets easily available.

if a modest expansion, say to 36k , could be done easily and cheaply then do it.if not, I would leave well alone, and make sure there is a sensible cap on ST numbers, should we get back to the PL.

Unless NC is planning to bankroll champions league football. But I don't see that somehow.

[suewhistle]

SNIP At one stage, we had 23,000 season ticket holders. If we get back to (and beyond) that stage again, I would suggest that would be the time to seriously look at expanding the ground.

 

I can't help thinking that strategically they are already looking seriously at the options. I wouldn't be surprised if they hadn't already done costings and projections, and certainly sounded out the local planners as well as looking at buying local land in the waterfront area.

 

Before and when we first moved to SMS I think they were budgetting for about 24k according to a friend who talked to Brian Hunt. One third of games 28/30k against top sides, 1/3 at 24k and 1/3 at 18k (the wigans of this world). In the event we did far better, although it does beg the question where all the money went. The other day we had more attending than Blackburn in the Premiership: possibly not too difficult ;-), but it does give an indication that TV revenue being equal we should be able to compete. Success breeds success and I bet Cortese wants to convert those local kids wandering around in plastic club shirts into hooked supporters, and poor fools like us!

 

So although I reckon Matthew Le God is teasing a bit at times I think he's on the right lines and we should'nt be too negative about our potential. You only have to look at Bundesliga crowds to see the impact of large stadiums and decent pricing.

[richie]

I think 40k if we were a mid table PL size would do the job.

 

Things is it doesnt look the sort of ground you can add a few thousand onto (e.g do the corners)

 

I never had an probs getting tickets in the Prem so I'm not massively fussed.

[popyto]

Sucess will breed demand, If we can finish top 10 in the prem for a couple of succesive years then I'm sure the demand for tickets will be enough to justify a 45K stadium, however this seems a long way of at the moment. Lets take it year by year and see how it goes this discussion is a tad premature.

[doddisalegend]

Sucess will breed demand, If we can finish top 10 in the prem for a couple of succesive years then I'm sure the demand for tickets will be enough to justify a 45K stadium, however this seems a long way of at the moment. Lets take it year by year and see how it goes this discussion is a tad premature.

 

The problem though it would seem is that as soon as the success stops (and in unless your Manure it always does) those same "fans" will dissapper again leaving us with a half empty stadium.

[benjii]

If expansion was to be financed by equity/"soft" loans then it would be absurd not to do it.

[djharvey]

Think it would be wise to expand to 35-38k but only if it could be done relatively easily/cheaply.

Often wondered if it is possible to dig down a couple of meters and install maybe another 5 rows of seats. Dont know if this would be a cheaper option! It could prob add another few thousand and also create a tighter feel to the ground.

I know there are distances stipulated for international matches (crowd to pitch) but surely these could be netted off for any odd international.

 

Just a thought!

[stevegrant]

You only have to look at Bundesliga crowds to see the impact of large stadiums and decent pricing.

There are so many differences between the "matchday experience" in Germany and the same in this country though.

 

In Germany:

• Ticket prices are sensible - in fact, I'm sure I heard that there are rules in place which stipulate that at least a proportion of tickets must not be higher than a particular price.
  
• There is an even distribution of seated and standing tickets so supporters have a choice of how they want to watch the game.
  
• Supporters aren't treated like the scum of the earth by authorities.
  
• Supporters aren't treated like complete idiots by their club.
  
• Matches aren't moved en masse for television, the vast majority kick off at 2.30pm on a Saturday
  
• Public transport providers don't hike up the prices as soon as fans start buying advance fare tickets

And that's just for starters. Cash is king in English football - there's plenty of money swirling around the Bundesliga, but the clubs also realise that without the fans, they have no product to market. The likes of Richard Scudamore would do well to remember that fact.

[Saint_clark]

I think 40k if we were a mid table PL size would do the job.

 

Things is it doesnt look the sort of ground you can add a few thousand onto (e.g do the corners)

 

I never had an probs getting tickets in the Prem so I'm not massively fussed.

 

This. I think we'd average around 36k in the Prem. Nothing wrong with having a 4k "safety buffer".

[Barry the Badger]

When thinking about 50k attendances you have to look at Wembley.

 

YES, we took that many up there but basically every single Saints fan I know was there plus quite a few wives, girlfriends or non Saints mates who only went as a one-off Wembley thing.

[Sour Mash]

Some people still don't understand what Cortese is doing here do they...?

 

If he is still here when we get to the Prem we will do something big.

 

As you're an expert, why don't you tell us? I have no doubt that Cortese is ambitious. However, the more I think of it the risk vs reward for ground expansion just doesn't add up. We will more likely do what pretty much every other club that regularly sells out will do and just keep prices at their optimum, maximising income and no real risk.

[Son of Bob]

You might be right there - I know that at least part of that upper tier was added afterwards, assumed it was all of it as it looks really strange and not the sort of thing I'd have imagined being incorporated into the original design.

 

He is. They extended the 2nd tier round behind one of the goals raising the capacity from 42,000 to 48,000.

[Matthew Le God]

Some people still don't understand what Cortese is doing here do they...?

 

If he is still here when we get to the Prem we will do something big.

 

As you're an expert, why don't you tell us? I have no doubt that Cortese is ambitious. However, the more I think of it the risk vs reward for ground expansion just doesn't add up. We will more likely do what pretty much every other club that regularly sells out will do and just keep prices at their optimum, maximising income and no real risk.

 

Cortese said in the BBC interview they are already looking at expanding St Mary's and if not possible they would build a new stadium. Any new stadium would have to be alot bigger than 32,000 to make it worth while, and any expansion he has in mind would be to a similar capacity.

 

According to those at one of the fans dinners, Cortese believes through research the club have done that Saints can get 45k averages in the Premier League and would require a stadium larger than 45k to achieved that.

 

Unlike at any other time in the clubs history Saints look like they may end up in the Premier League with an ownership with real resources behind it. Rupert Lowe never invested in the team or club and still saw St Mary's average over 30k in every season in the Premier League including the relegation season. A Saints team in the Premier League with investment in the squad from the Liebherr's, is a more attractive proposition to go to St Mary's than what Lowe ever did.

 

Just look at what West Ham are planning with the Olympic stadium. A 60,000 stadium compared to there current 34,000 stadium and will make ticket prices extremely cheap as they have the number to play with. The more seats you have, the easier it is to reduce prices, give free tickets to schools to attract future fans and give very cheap family deals etc etc.

 

I think we will see a stadium expansion happening relatively soon. Cortese is a very ambitious man!

Edited 5 May, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[stevegrant]

Just look at what West Ham are planning with the Olympic stadium. A 60,000 stadium and will make ticket prices extremely cheap as they have the number to play with. The more seats you have, the easier it is to reduce prices.

It's also pretty easy to do it if you're getting a stadium that cost the taxpayer more than £500m to build for only £40m. Sadly, short of forcing a judicial review in Stratford and relocating there ourselves, that option's probably not available to us.

[Matthew Le God]

It's also pretty easy to do it if you're getting a stadium that cost the taxpayer more than £500m to build for only £40m. Sadly, short of forcing a judicial review in Stratford and relocating there ourselves, that option's probably not available to us.

 

I didn't say I agreed with the West Ham case (certainly not the £40m council loan), just the concept that a larger stadium means the easier it is to reduce prices, give free tickets to schools to attract future fans and give very cheap family deals etc. Saints also wouldn't be imposing themselves on anyone like West Ham are with Leyton Orient.

 

But if the Liebherr's are going to fund any expansion (or if needs be a new stadium) themselves, I don't have an issue with that. A larger stadium will help gain a larger fanbase through ticketing schemes.