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Am I the only one who gets completely peeved off when these Human Rights groups pan on about things.

 

For example, if Osama Bin Laden were to ever be caught, you could bet your boots on some HR gimp coming out saying he shouldnt be treated badly, should have a TV in prison, should have a choice of meals in prison etc etc.

 

Like the amount of time you can detain someone suspected of terror charges. IMO if your innocent, you have nothing to worry about. Yet HR gimps come out saying its against their rights to detain them for x amount of days.

 

One question...

 

Would you be happier not detaining them, for them to then go and blow up hundreds or thousands of innocent people?!

 

A few innocent people being detained for a few extra days is IMO a hell of a lot better than letting the guilty go a few days earlier!

 

Discuss

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I agree with you but it's when they get things wrong that it impacts innocent peoples lives. You are right, if you are innocent you have nothing to worry about, but once you have been locked up for 6 weeks there will be an air of suspicion around you from other people and you could well have lost your job. That can impact on families a lot.

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Guest Dark Sotonic Mills

That's right, Human Rights laws are only for terrorists.

 

Have you actually ever read the European Convention on Human Rights or the Human Rights Act? I suspect not.

 

May I suggest that you spend half an hour doing so, and then tell us that you think that they are wrongly constructed and should be repealed.

 

 

Sun-reader knee-jerk reactions help no-one. Please inform yourself before you make a comment otherwise it makes you look foolish.

 

Oh and by the way, the right to be brought before a court and to hear the charges against you as soon as possible is not just part of the HRA, it was enshrined in law by the Magna Carta in a day not too well known for its liberalistic approach to justice.

 

By the way, the tenets of the HRA are shown below. I hope you can agree that they are fairly important rights, which everyone has relied on for centuries but are now entered into legislation.

 

Article 1 Right to life

 

 

Article 3 Prohibition of torture

 

 

Article 4 Prohibition of slavery and forced labour

 

 

Article 5 Right to liberty and security

 

 

Article 6 Right to a fair trial

 

 

Article 7 No punishment without law

 

 

Article 8 Right to respect for private and family life

 

 

Article 9 Freedom of thought, conscience and religion

 

 

Article 10 Freedom of expression

 

 

Article 11 Freedom of assembly and association

 

 

Article 12 Right to marry

 

 

Article 14 Prohibition of discrimination

 

The Second Protocol

Article 2 Right to education

 

 

Article 3 Right to free elections

 

The Sixth Protocol

 

Article 1 Abolition of the death penalty

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Like the amount of time you can detain someone suspected of terror charges. IMO if your innocent, you have nothing to worry about. Yet HR gimps come out saying its against their rights to detain them for x amount of days.

 

One question...

 

Would you be happier not detaining them, for them to then go and blow up hundreds or thousands of innocent people?!

 

A few innocent people being detained for a few extra days is IMO a hell of a lot better than letting the guilty go a few days earlier!

 

Discuss

 

I'd be more worried about people like you actually approving these plans?

 

**** me, seriously you think it's ok to shove someone in jail without trial indefinatley? Bet you'd be the first to complain if it was you...

 

What's most shocking to me is people's attitude towards things like cctv and changes to our laws in respect to "terrorism". Our freedoms are being stripped away on a daily basis, we have more CCTV cameras watching our everymove in this country per capita than anywhere else on the globe, assume its alright if they stick them in your bedroom, toilet and lounge then INS? After all, if you're not doing anything wrong then it doesnt matter, right?

 

We should be thankful a little for CCTV i guess, crime figures have plummeted since the 70's, right? hmm

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some of these human rights groups are so small yet they get so much media attention..

 

EG...Liberty has less than 9k members (i think) yet the head of the group appears on the BBC news and question time now and then..

 

 

as for CCTV and what baj says...I agree...the idea of fighting terrorism isfine..but they seem to be using cameras tgo get monetry gain...how many different speed cameras are there these days??

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That's right, Human Rights laws are only for terrorists.

 

Have you actually ever read the European Convention on Human Rights or the Human Rights Act? I suspect not.

 

May I suggest that you spend half an hour doing so, and then tell us that you think that they are wrongly constructed and should be repealed.

 

Sun-reader knee-jerk reactions help no-one. Please inform yourself before you make a comment otherwise it makes you look foolish.

 

Oh and by the way, the right to be brought before a court and to hear the charges against you as soon as possible is not just part of the HRA, it was enshrined in law by the Magna Carta in a day not too well known for its liberalistic approach to justice.

 

I have not read the Act no, neither do I entend to. Im sure there are parts of it which are fair and just, however, do not agree to the interfering when it comes to something as big as a terrorism charge.

 

Do you think they should just be let go then?

 

I would be all for charging people straight away, but Im sure as you will no doubt point out, this cannot be done. Which leaves them in a limbo position. Hence why the rule to extend the time they can be detained is so.

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That's right, Human Rights laws are only for terrorists.

 

Have you actually ever read the European Convention on Human Rights or the Human Rights Act? I suspect not.

 

May I suggest that you spend half an hour doing so, and then tell us that you think that they are wrongly constructed and should be repealed.

 

 

Sun-reader knee-jerk reactions help no-one. Please inform yourself before you make a comment otherwise it makes you look foolish.

 

Oh and by the way, the right to be brought before a court and to hear the charges against you as soon as possible is not just part of the HRA, it was enshrined in law by the Magna Carta in a day not too well known for its liberalistic approach to justice.

 

 

No need to get quite so emotional about things. I do think he had a pretty good point in that a bunch of PC knobcheese's will rally around OBL once he has been caught in pretty much the same way as some people were to Saddam Hussain. It goes against the grain to see someone with so much guilt getting "fair" treatment.

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I'd be more worried about people like you actually approving these plans?

 

**** me, seriously you think it's ok to shove someone in jail without trial indefinatley? Bet you'd be the first to complain if it was you...

 

What's most shocking to me is people's attitude towards things like cctv and changes to our laws in respect to "terrorism". Our freedoms are being stripped away on a daily basis, we have more CCTV cameras watching our everymove in this country per capita than anywhere else on the globe, assume its alright if they stick them in your bedroom, toilet and lounge then INS? After all, if you're not doing anything wrong then it doesnt matter, right?

 

We should be thankful a little for CCTV i guess, crime figures have plummeted since the 70's, right? hmm

 

Feel free to point out where I said indefinatley. I did not say Indefinatley, I just said a little longer. If you are going to have a go at me, then please at least get what Im saying right.

 

I wouldnt want CCTV in my home no, and would disagree with the 'big brother' state if they were to use it against you for every little thing possible, however. In the case of terrorism, where they plan to end the lives of innocent people, if a few extra CCTV camera's here or there, emails being monitored, ID cards or even having to spend a few extra days or a week or so in prison means that it would cut down the chances of something like this happening again then I am for it.

 

You may want to take the 'Look at me, im neutral and have no opinions' view on it and will probably call me a Daily Mail reader for having such a view, however, you ask what the HR people, or even the innocent person locked up for a week longer would prefer, being locked up an extra week or their family being blown up by a terrorist.

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as for CCTV and what baj says...I agree...the idea of fighting terrorism isfine..but they seem to be using cameras tgo get monetry gain...how many different speed cameras are there these days??

 

Hardly the same though. No I do not agree with speed camera's as a money grabbing scheme (which they are) but its not as if these can be classed as being part of a 'big brother state'.

 

Equally, I dont think CCTV camera's (which you find on the high street for example) can be classed as revenue generating.

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I'd be more worried about people like you actually approving these plans?

 

**** me, seriously you think it's ok to shove someone in jail without trial indefinatley? Bet you'd be the first to complain if it was you...

 

What's most shocking to me is people's attitude towards things like cctv and changes to our laws in respect to "terrorism". Our freedoms are being stripped away on a daily basis, we have more CCTV cameras watching our everymove in this country per capita than anywhere else on the globe, assume its alright if they stick them in your bedroom, toilet and lounge then INS? After all, if you're not doing anything wrong then it doesnt matter, right?

 

We should be thankful a little for CCTV i guess, crime figures have plummeted since the 70's, right? hmm

 

Got to agree with Baj on this one. A short while ago I saw a bunch of young adults on tv and they were being filmed day and night by cameras and every now and again one of them would go missing. It's big brother gone mad.

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No need to get quite so emotional about things. I do think he had a pretty good point in that a bunch of PC knobcheese's will rally around OBL once he has been caught in pretty much the same way as some people were to Saddam Hussain. It goes against the grain to see someone with so much guilt getting "fair" treatment.

 

Cheers JFP, this is my point exactly.

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Hardly the same though. No I do not agree with speed camera's as a money grabbing scheme (which they are) but its not as if these can be classed as being part of a 'big brother state'.

 

Equally, I dont think CCTV camera's (which you find on the high street for example) can be classed as revenue generating.

no no ....and i agree with that side of it..

 

maybe, less cameras on the motorway for more in the town centres...

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Guest Dark Sotonic Mills
No need to get quite so emotional about things. I do think he had a pretty good point in that a bunch of PC knobcheese's will rally around OBL once he has been caught in pretty much the same way as some people were to Saddam Hussain. It goes against the grain to see someone with so much guilt getting "fair" treatment.

 

I get fairly emotional about it as it's my job and I believe in the HRA implicitly and will do everything I can to defend peoples' rights.

 

One small snapshot of a what if, then what happens and what could happen really isn't the best way to illustrate the massive amount of benefit having rights really is.

 

Compare living in Europe with living somewhere like Iran or Syria where rights are considered less than important

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We should be thankful a little for CCTV i guess, crime figures have plummeted since the 70's, right? hmm

 

And to say the growth in CCTV camera's is directly linked to the growth in crime levels is absurd.

 

How about the smacking ban? Kids being able to get away with more things without fear of reprival? Surely this breeds less respect and therefore, could be deemed to be a link to crime increasing?

 

Drugs being more easily available and cheaper too, that not one of the reasons as well?

 

Police being targetted on areas like paperwork FFS, meaning less time on 'the beat'.

 

These all have a hell of a lot more relevance to crime rate increases since the 70's than CCTV does Baj.

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I get fairly emotional about it as it's my job and I believe in the HRA implicitly and will do everything I can to defend peoples' rights.

 

One small snapshot of a what if, then what happens and what could happen really isn't the best way to illustrate the massive amount of benefit having rights really is.

 

Compare living in Europe with living somewhere like Iran or Syria where rights are considered less than important

 

There is always a ying and yang philosophy though, to everything. I agree, it's easy to take a snapshot image of any situation where an existing rule or regulation has made something worse in a given scenario. To compare living in Europe to living in Iran or Syria is an obvious example of where human rights do make peoples lives better, but you are not seeing the full picture. The two latter countries have much more sunshine days per year.

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I get fairly emotional about it as it's my job and I believe in the HRA implicitly and will do everything I can to defend peoples' rights.

 

One small snapshot of a what if, then what happens and what could happen really isn't the best way to illustrate the massive amount of benefit having rights really is.

 

Compare living in Europe with living somewhere like Iran or Syria where rights are considered less than important

 

Oh, I agree with this completely. But there are rights and there are rights. The rights, you and I have as a law abiding citizen which seperate us from the likes of Iran and Syria should be and thankfully are, in place.

 

But its the rights of the criminals which I do not agree with. Why should someone who has raped and murdered an innocent child, be given the same rights as an innocent person?

 

And yes I am fully aware that you are innocent until proven guilty, and if it took a few extra days to clear my name, I for one would have no qualms about it.

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Guest Dark Sotonic Mills
There is always a ying and yang philosophy though, to everything. ... but you are not seeing the full picture. The two latter countries have much more sunshine days per year.

 

But they don't allow alcohol. Back to yang again...

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Guest Dark Sotonic Mills
Oh, I agree with this completely. But there are rights and there are rights. The rights, you and I have as a law abiding citizen which separate us from the likes of Iran and Syria should be and thankfully are, in place.

 

But its the rights of the criminals which I do not agree with. Why should someone who has raped and murdered an innocent child, be given the same rights as an innocent person?

 

And yes I am fully aware that you are innocent until proven guilty, and if it took a few extra days to clear my name, I for one would have no qualms about it.

 

Because otherwise we would be, as a society, no better than them. Don't forget that they still have the right to remain in prison for the rest of their lives.

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And to say the growth in CCTV camera's is directly linked to the growth in crime levels is absurd.

 

How about the smacking ban? Kids being able to get away with more things without fear of reprival? Surely this breeds less respect and therefore, could be deemed to be a link to crime increasing?

 

Drugs being more easily available and cheaper too, that not one of the reasons as well?

 

Police being targetted on areas like paperwork FFS, meaning less time on 'the beat'.

 

These all have a hell of a lot more relevance to crime rate increases since the 70's than CCTV does Baj.

 

You've completely and utterly misunderstood my point. CCTV cameras are supposedly there as a deterent to crime, yet as crime has risen, I think that shows they aren't achieving the desired affect.

 

And terror? what terror? If we're going to change all these laws and give up basic freedoms to protect us from all this terror... then show me the terror. We were under a much more vicious, sustained and deadly terrorism campaign under the IRA, who killed a lot more people that 3 blokes on a tube train, yet at the time that didnt fit the governments agenda... thank god for the "war on terror" huh?

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I get fairly emotional about it as it's my job and I believe in the HRA implicitly and will do everything I can to defend peoples' rights.

 

One small snapshot of a what if, then what happens and what could happen really isn't the best way to illustrate the massive amount of benefit having rights really is.

 

Compare living in Europe with living somewhere like Iran or Syria where rights are considered less than important

 

I am more interested in why you chose your job in the first place rather than your opinion.

 

I am doing an open uni degree in psychology,can I use you as a case study please.

 

Question one for you is do the lambs keep you awake at night?

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Guest Dark Sotonic Mills
I am more interested in why you chose your job in the first place rather than your opinion.

 

I am doing an open uni degree in psychology,can I use you as a case study please.

 

Question one for you is do the lambs keep you awake at night?

 

A bit of a cliché, but once I had studied the beginnings of our Human Rights laws as part of the history of the English legal system, it sort of chose me. Until then I had never studied something about which I felt so strongly.

 

And no, the lambs don't keep me awake at night, but the thoughts of millions of people tortured and killed in regimes less humanitarian that ours would do, if I let it.

 

I include the US in that list by the way.

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A bit of a cliché, but once I had studied the beginnings of our Human Rights laws as part of the history of the English legal system, it sort of chose me. Until then I had never studied something about which I felt so strongly.

 

And no, the lambs don't keep me awake at night, but the thoughts of millions of people tortured and killed in regimes less humanitarian that ours would do, if I let it.

 

I include the US in that list by the way.

 

I don't get this bit.

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A bit of a cliché, but once I had studied the beginnings of our Human Rights laws as part of the history of the English legal system, it sort of chose me. Until then I had never studied something about which I felt so strongly.

 

And no, the lambs don't keep me awake at night, but the thoughts of millions of people tortured and killed in regimes less humanitarian than [h]ours would do, if I let it.

 

I include the US in that list by the way.

 

I don't get this bit.

 

Oh come on JFP, use a little grey matter. How about the above..?

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Why? For having an opinion that differs from yours?

 

I wouldn't put it as simply as that. Basic human rights are, and always have been, fundamental to our way of life. Picking and choosing, on a whim, who is entitled to those rights goes against everything humanity stands for.

 

I doubt you'd be too impressed if a member of your family was incarcerated for 2 months for giving a terror suspect the time and being seen on CCTV doing so.

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I would cite INS's ability to question the human rights of people as an example of his human rights. He's lucky he lives in a country which is tolerant of most views. Unfortunately, human rights aren't conveniently matched to an individual's requirements. What is right for one isn't necessarily right for another. They have to cover all circumstances and individuals.

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Guest Dark Sotonic Mills
This is a bit heavy for the Muppet Show ! :rolleyes:

 

Would you rather read a thread like this or one about how many times some eighteen year old got hammered at the weekend and spent the next day 'hanging'?

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Guest Dark Sotonic Mills
I would cite INS's ability to question the human rights of people as an example of his human rights. He's lucky he lives in a country which is tolerant of most views. Unfortunately, human rights aren't conveniently matched to an individual's requirements. What is right for one isn't necessarily right for another. They have to cover all circumstances and individuals.

Precisely.

He can stand on a street corner anywhere in Britain and shout anti-Royalist slogans or question Gordon Brown's parentage and sexuality and maybe just get a few strange looks from passers-by.

 

In Tehran though, try shouting about how President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad should be strung up for kiddy-fiddling and see what the reaction is there.

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Precisely.

He can stand on a street corner anywhere in Britain and shout anti-Royalist slogans or question Gordon Brown's parentage and sexuality and maybe just get a few strange looks from passers-by.

 

In Tehran though, try shouting about how President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad should be strung up for kiddy-fiddling and see what the reaction is there.

although..he probably could not shout his views on britishness and or the rights and wrongs of islam...

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Guest Dark Sotonic Mills
Can I stand outside west quay and shout about Gordon brown kiddy fiddling then ?

 

Yes, you have the right to freedom of expression. He has every right to sue you for slander though.

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Guest Dark Sotonic Mills
although..he probably could not shout his views on britishness and or the rights and wrongs of islam...

 

If his words are designed to incite racial hatred then that would be a no-no of course. But to shout, say, "The Christian God is the only true God" would be fine. It happens every Sunday all over the country.

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I wouldn't put it as simply as that. Basic human rights are, and always have been, fundamental to our way of life. Picking and choosing, on a whim, who is entitled to those rights goes against everything humanity stands for.

 

I doubt you'd be too impressed if a member of your family was incarcerated for 2 months for giving a terror suspect the time and being seen on CCTV doing so.

 

I wouldnt be too happy about it no, however, I would understand it, and if by encarserating (sp) a member of my family, it meant that someone who had actually commit a terror related crime was detained for long enough to gain enough evidence against them and stopped them commiting the crime then I would have tolerate it.

 

I may hav mis-worded my original point, however as Hatch has said, what I should have possibly said is:

 

Should people who have no regard for Human Life still be protected by these Human Rights laws? And why is it people rally for them getting these rights?

 

I can see its probably more for the rights itself, rather than the person the particular case relates to. However, even if I were so hell bent on defending human rights, I would turn a blind eye to it on cases such as Saddam Hussain and Osama Bin Laden. This is my own personal opinion of course.

 

I think a lot of people have not understood my original point, which is probably half my fault as I didnt word it right, however, I am not going on about your basic human rights in general.

 

I would challenge any person who says they would prefer hundreds of people to be innocently killed in preference to themselves of one of their loved ones being detained for a few weeks innocently.

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Precisely.

He can stand on a street corner anywhere in Britain and shout anti-Royalist slogans or question Gordon Brown's parentage and sexuality and maybe just get a few strange looks from passers-by.

 

In Tehran though, try shouting about how President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad should be strung up for kiddy-fiddling and see what the reaction is there.

 

??? The first would be a point of view, the second would be slander, unless he could prove it. If the same were done here, he'd be nicked.

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Guest Dark Sotonic Mills
??? The first would be a point of view, the second would be slander, unless he could prove it. If the same were done here, he'd be nicked.

 

No. It would be up to the person slandered to issue a civil claim. The police wouldn't take sides as it isn't a criminal matter.

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