Ponty Posted 19 October, 2008 Share Posted 19 October, 2008 Hmmm, not according to one of the nicest blokes I've met in F1.... Helsingin Sanomat October 17, 2008 Shanghai Heikki Kovalainen "Lewis is an aggressive and an uncompromising driver, whose reactions can be fierce. And at times they have been excessive," says Kovalainen. "I've had to dodge his moves myself a couple of times, and I've made it clear to him that I won't be doing that indefinitely. If nothing changes, we're bound to have a collision between us at some point." For next season, Kovalainen is also calling out for a different attitude towards him from his team. "It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that, barring one instance (British GP), I've had a heavier fuel load than Lewis in qualifying." "If you want to have a shot at the championship, you have to qualify in the front row. Even after a good qualifying performance, I'm starting in 4th, 5th or 6th. That doesn't help your race at all." Now, just to be absolutely clear, I've nothing against having #1 and #2 drivers in a team, in principle, but McLaren have always been absolutely resolute in their claim that Lewis doesn't receive any preferential treatment. Heikki seems to think differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 19 October, 2008 Share Posted 19 October, 2008 Who makes the decisions about fuel load in qualifying? I would've thought that less fuel is a big advantage as you still get 20 laps or so from the front to build a cushion before the first pit stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 19 October, 2008 Author Share Posted 19 October, 2008 Who makes the decisions about fuel load in qualifying? I would've thought that less fuel is a big advantage as you still get 20 laps or so from the front to build a cushion before the first pit stop. Less fuel is a massive advantage, if you make it through to Q3 and have a chance to challenge for a front row position. Obviously both drivers cannot have exactly the same amount, else they'd be pitting on the same lap, but most teams share the choice of fuel load equally. It was also strange today that Heikki had 5 more laps of fuel in than Lewis. That made no sense at all when they could have really used a front row lock-out against the Ferraris. It's all quite odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 19 October, 2008 Share Posted 19 October, 2008 Less fuel is a massive advantage, if you make it through to Q3 and have a chance to challenge for a front row position. Obviously both drivers cannot have exactly the same amount, else they'd be pitting on the same lap, but most teams share the choice of fuel load equally. It was also strange today that Heikki had 5 more laps of fuel in than Lewis. That made no sense at all when they could have really used a front row lock-out against the Ferraris. It's all quite odd. Is it thought that all the engines being V8 and the same CC use the same fuel loads or are some more efficient than others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 19 October, 2008 Author Share Posted 19 October, 2008 Is it thought that all the engines being V8 and the same CC use the same fuel loads or are some more efficient than others? Some are more efficient, of that there's no doubt. I believe the Honda is quite good economy wise. It's just a shame that in every other way the car is a dog. That said, they're actually very simple engines. No variable valve timing or anything like that which we take for granted on road cars nowadays. It's simply the lightness and balance of the internals which allow it to rotate so fast, plus the semi-precious metals used for the components allowing it to burn so much fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hacienda Posted 19 October, 2008 Share Posted 19 October, 2008 Nice bloke etc but simply not fast enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Landrew Posted 20 October, 2008 Share Posted 20 October, 2008 (edited) Some are more efficient, of that there's no doubt. I believe the Honda is quite good economy wise. It's just a shame that in every other way the car is a dog. That said, they're actually very simple engines. No variable valve timing or anything like that which we take for granted on road cars nowadays. It's simply the lightness and balance of the internals which allow it to rotate so fast, plus the semi-precious metals used for the components allowing it to burn so much fuel. Just an academic question Ponty, but what is the maximum piston speed allowed for today's racing materials..? I still remember, as a kid, reading my older brother's Motorcycle Mechanics magazine from about 1966, and they had an article about a 1964 Honda twin cylinder, 8 valve, 50cc racing engine. If I remember correctly**, it was able to rotate quite readily at 20,000+ rpm, but could go up higher for short bursts, which is astonishing for the early 60's and, I believe, got very close to what was known as the absolute maximum piston speed available at the time. **Did a little research. Some people might find this interesting. Look for RC113 and RC114 engines. Honda used to produce some amazing engines: http://www.vf750fd.com/Joep_Kortekaas/1964.html How about this for a crankshaft and pistons..? Edited 20 October, 2008 by St Landrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Landrew Posted 20 October, 2008 Share Posted 20 October, 2008 Sorry to hijack this thread to racing engines, but I've just read this on the Honda Racing History website I linked to earlier. How about this..? 50 cc RC116 Difference between the RC115 and the RC116 is a new bore and stroke, now being 35.5 x 25.14 mm. Power output is 16 bhp at 21,500 rpm. This means 320 bhp per litre and a Pme of nearly 16 kg/cm2 ! As regards bhp per litre, this is a figure that has never been surpassed by any naturally aspirated four stroke engine, and even today's formula 1 cars with their special fuel brews cannot hold a candle to it. I know this is not a totally fair comparison, but it gives an idea of the level of four stroke technology nearly 40 years ago. This engine is the most advanced of all the Honda engines. Red line at 22,500 rpm. Carburettors have flat slides. The gearbox contains a nine speed cluster. Dry weight of the bike is 58 kg. The piston pin has a diameter of 9 mm and weighs 6 g. The inlet valve head is 13 mm, the exhaust valve head is 11.5 mm, and the stems are 3.5 mm diameter. Bloody hell..! If I find any more stuff I'll start a new thread instead. Promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 20 October, 2008 Author Share Posted 20 October, 2008 Today's engines will run at around 21,000 rpm but since the freeze, and designation of 2 race engines, they've been electronically limited to 19,000. It might not quite reach the max rpm of those Honda twins but then we're talking V8s here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Landrew Posted 20 October, 2008 Share Posted 20 October, 2008 Sorry Ponty, the original question got buried in a mass of specifications. Maximum Piston Speed. I read that most F1 engines have an absolute peak of around **32 metres per sec [105 feet per sec], but normally operate at about 28 m/s [92 f/s]. Obviously I'm not talking exclusively about revs here, but the maximum speed a piston achieves halfway between TDC and BDC due to the stroke of the engines. **Incidentally, I did a couple of very rough calculations and this speed equates to 71.5 mph. So that's a standing start at TDC to 71.5 mph and back to stop at BDC, all in the space, I guess, of about 50mm [assumed stroke] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Landrew Posted 20 October, 2008 Share Posted 20 October, 2008 Well I did a little digging and F1 engines are said to have a bore/stroke ratio of 2.5:1, which considering a size of 2.4 litres means that assumed stroke of 50mm [2+ inches] was way off. It's more like 11mm [0.43 in]. So 0-71.5 mph and back to dead stop in the space of 11mm. Phew..! That's it. No more hijacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 20 October, 2008 Author Share Posted 20 October, 2008 Without getting a calculator out, that sounds somewhere about right. I might come back to this later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 20 October, 2008 Share Posted 20 October, 2008 How much difference does it make on laps per gallon (or whatever) if a driver is a stone heavier than his team mate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 20 October, 2008 Author Share Posted 20 October, 2008 How much difference does it make on laps per gallon (or whatever) if a driver is a stone heavier than his team mate? None, because we add loads of ballast to the car to bring it up to weight. What it does do is compromise the balance of the car if the driver is on the heavy side as we can't put the weight exactly where we want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Bob Posted 20 October, 2008 Share Posted 20 October, 2008 None, because we add loads of ballast to the car to bring it up to weight. What it does do is compromise the balance of the car if the driver is on the heavy side as we can't put the weight exactly where we want it. I now have this mental image of Ponty shovelling sand into a Renault nose cone whilst berating Alonso for eating too many pies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al de Man Posted 20 October, 2008 Share Posted 20 October, 2008 I now have this mental image of Ponty shovelling sand into a Renault nose cone whilst berating Alonso for eating too many pies! I have a picture of you from Saturday with your shirt half off. You should not be commenting on other people's affection for pies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Bob Posted 20 October, 2008 Share Posted 20 October, 2008 I have a picture of you from Saturday with your shirt half off. You should not be commenting on other people's affection for pies. I don't like 'em myself but pizzas, well that's a different matter! I know I'm fat mate. It doesn't matter though, I'm married now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Saint Posted 3 November, 2008 Share Posted 3 November, 2008 I have to say that the kind of thing being high-lighted by the first poster here is a bit like throwing stones in glasshouses. Because I recall a certain Mr Schumacher in his Ben Elton days (later to become Renault F1 under the same management) getting a bit narked at his team mate Johnny Herbert blowing his doors off all through winter testing, which resulted in good 'ole Mickey the Shoe manipulating the team so as to be sure that he always had the upper hand over Johnny. Its all politics of Formula 1 nothing new. Just because all the glass is missing in your house don't start throwing stones at someone elses. And just so that dear old Ponty does not think that I am picking an argument with him MS did the very same thing when he rocked up at Ferrari, gave the mad Irishman a pain in the backside then acquired a puppy called Rubens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 3 November, 2008 Author Share Posted 3 November, 2008 TBF, Benetton and Ferrari have never claimed otherwise. Not the case at McLaren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arizona Posted 3 November, 2008 Share Posted 3 November, 2008 I just didn't see any team orders at McLaren this year. Obviously yesterday Heikki was never going to get in Lewis' way, but other wise I think they've been on a pretty even footing. Sadly for Heikki, he just isn't quick. Hopefully he can find some speed over the winter, but this season he has been nowhere near as quick as Hamilton. I am guessing this has something to do with why he has been on heavier fuel loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 3 November, 2008 Author Share Posted 3 November, 2008 I could argue this 'til the cows come home but I won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arizona Posted 3 November, 2008 Share Posted 3 November, 2008 Awww, but it's fun. FWIW I think LH is Dennis' favourite driver, but I don't think he treats them in any way unfairly. I remember in Spa '99 when Coulthard launched one up the inside of Hakkinen at the start and went on to win the race. Mika was far from happy, but Dennis' said the two drivers were allowed to race. Think DC was still mathematically still in the Championship at that point, so it was fair enough IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Landrew Posted 3 November, 2008 Share Posted 3 November, 2008 Awww, but it's fun. FWIW I think LH is Dennis' favourite driver, but I don't think he treats them in any way unfairly. I remember in Spa '99 when Coulthard launched one up the inside of Hakkinen at the start and went on to win the race. Mika was far from happy, but Dennis' said the two drivers were allowed to race. Think DC was still mathematically still in the Championship at that point, so it was fair enough IMO. Ah, I was trying to think of that very point the last time we had this discussion about equal treatment at McLaren and other teams. There's a lot to be said of Ron Dennis's attitude. At least a driver in his team fairly wins a championship. One or two of Schue's toll could be said to have been helped along very much via his teammate of the season. Nobody talks about favouritism in other teams, yet McLaren come in for a lot of scrutiny because they try to be evenhanded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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