The AV referendum

[pap]

That hypothesis doesn't really need 'grasping' though. The Tory leader is chosen by the members in a FPTP election. All the MPs do is whittle the candidates down to the final two. A means to an end if you will.

 

Davies and Cameron made the shortlist and then Cameron won the actual vote. It didn't matter who came first or second...a bit like us and Brighton you might say... ;-)

 

Simple as that.

 

It's not comparable with the FPTP election you have in a constituency seat, though.

 

By the time the FPTP element of the vote kicks in, the field has already been whittled down to two candidates, and the winner is guaranteed a mandate.

 

Mandate-wise, FPTP is knackered the moment you have more than two candidates.

 

Technically, everything you've said is correct; but the FPTP vote in the final vote of the Conservative leader is moulded by run-off voting, and the winner is guaranteed to have at least 50% of the final vote. It is completely different from FPTP voting as seen in a general election.

[badgerx16]

1) If we were having this debate in 1918, how many would be defending the existing 'tried and tested' electoral process against the enfranchisement of the 'monstrous regiment' ?

 

2) There is nothing in AV to prevent a mainstream party's candidate winning in the 'first round' - all they have to do is win 50% of the vote; however this is something they are currently unable to do.

 

3) I loved watching the Adam Boulton clip. Warsi is a liability, let's hope they keep her on as long as possible.

[badgerx16]

Under PR (which most supporters of AV want in the end) the BNP would have the 5th most seats in a uk Parliament, behind UKIP and the big 3.

Are you saying that BNP supporters should not be allowed to vote ?

[trousers]

Are you saying that BNP supporters should not be allowed to vote ?

 

No, can't see where he's said that. He's saying you should have to amass more than a 'small' number of votes before your collective voice can make a difference.

[solentstars]

1) If we were having this debate in 1918, how many would be defending the existing 'tried and tested' electoral process against the enfranchisement of the 'monstrous regiment' ?

 

2) There is nothing in AV to prevent a mainstream party's candidate winning in the 'first round' - all they have to do is win 50% of the vote; however this is something they are currently unable to do.

 

3) I loved watching the Adam Boulton clip. Warsi is a liability, let's hope they keep her on as long as possible.

 

good post

[trousers]

good post

 

And your second favourite post is...?

[solentstars]

And your second favourite post is...?

 

nice one ha ha

[badgerx16]

No, can't see where he's said that. He's saying you should have to amass more than a 'small' number of votes before your collective voice can make a difference.

So, under a 'perfect' PR system, is a party that gains 1.9% of the total vote entitled to 1.9% of the seats, or can we decide they are not if we, ( whoever 'WE' are ), don't approve of their policies ?

 

In terms of the total UK vote, that is more than the SNP, the DUP, Sinn Fein, Plaid Cymru, and the Greens,- all of whom won seats in 2010.

[dune]

Warsi is a liability.

 

I can't stand her. Po faced ***** similar to Jaqui Smith.

[badgerx16]

I can't stand her. Po faced ***** similar to Jaqui Smith.

Female ?

[dune]

Female ?

 

It begins with B.

[Lord Duckhunter]

That hypothesis doesn't really need 'grasping' though. The Tory leader is chosen by the members in a FPTP election. All the MPs do is whittle the candidates down to the final two. A means to an end if you will.

 

Davies and Cameron made the shortlist and then Cameron won the actual vote. It didn't matter who came first or second...a bit like us and Brighton you might say... ;-)

 

Simple as that.

 

Correct, the lie that the yes people are clinging to was that Davies would have won the leadership. He would not of. Party rules are that the membership decide the leader after they are presented the MP's 2 favourite candidates. Which ever way the 2 candidates were given to them, the result would have been the same. Under FPTP it would have been Davies, Cameron. Under the system that they used it was Cameron, Davies. The membership decide who is leader not the MP's.

[dune]

Who decided on the one eyed Scotsman?

[Lord Duckhunter]

i doubt it has protest votes would go to other partys and normally their is a limit of the national vote around the country they would need to achieve to- keep out far right and far left.more likely you would see the rise of the green party has a force.

 

The Greens fielded only 28 less candidates than the BNP and got approx half the BNP's vote. People always seem to think that the Greens and "good" parties will get proper representation under PR, but in fact the BNP are far more popular. Based on the last election and the European election results UKIP & The BNP are under represented compared to the strength of their vote.

[badgerx16]

Who decided on the one eyed Scotsman?

Assuming you are referring to the Labour leadership, however it was arranged, GB was the sole candidate and therefore elected unopposed. A perfect example of how AV and FPTP can produce the same result.

[pedg]

The Greens fielded only 28 less candidates than the BNP and got approx half the BNP's vote. People always seem to think that the Greens and "good" parties will get proper representation under PR, but in fact the BNP are far more popular. Based on the last election and the European election results UKIP & The BNP are under represented compared to the strength of their vote.

 

The BNP are more popular 'under FPTP'. I think its not a great leap to think that the greens would pick up a lot more 2nd and 3rd selections compared to the BNP.

[pap]

Correct, the lie that the yes people are clinging to was that Davies would have won the leadership. He would not of. Party rules are that the membership decide the leader after they are presented the MP's 2 favourite candidates. Which ever way the 2 candidates were given to them, the result would have been the same. Under FPTP it would have been Davies, Cameron. Under the system that they used it was Cameron, Davies. The membership decide who is leader not the MP's.

 

Yes, but at that point, they have exactly two candidates to pick from. FPTP works brilliantly with two candidates, not so great with more. Constituency elections have more.

[Thedelldays]

just think how different our lives would be if Xfactor and Big Brother had used AV.....

[dune]

The BNP are more popular 'under FPTP'. I think its not a great leap to think that the greens would pick up a lot more 2nd and 3rd selections compared to the BNP.

 

Not from me they wouldn't.

[pedg]

Not from me they wouldn't.

 

One lack of a swallow does not make a lack of a summer.

[badgerx16]

One lack of a swallow does not make a lack of a summer.

Spoils Dune's evening out though.

[Whitey Grandad]

Having read all the points of view I have decided that AV is for people who can't make up their minds about what they want.

[badgerx16]

Having read all the points of view I have decided that AV is for people who can't make up their minds about what they want.

And FPTP is for people who are happy to have their minds made up for them.

[pedg]

Having read all the points of view I have decided that AV is for people who can't make up their minds about what they want.

 

If you go to a restaurant and select your favorite dish and are then told it is currently off would you leave immediately or choose something else off the menu?

[Jonnyboy]

Not from me they wouldn't.

 

Yeah BNP would get 2nd, 3rd and 4th from you.

[CB Fry]

just think how different our lives would be if Xfactor and Big Brother had used AV.....

 

 

To be fair mate, they do. If they used FPTP the program would be over after the first week.

 

 

It's all a bit academic though because the NO campaign are going to walk it. Which really, will be fine. Landslides and Coalitions are just as likely in both systems, and both have their merits and faults.

 

The key thing to remember is that all governments are coalitions. All of them.

 

Michael Howard and Ken Clarke sat round a cabinet table. Gordon Brown and Alan Milburn round a cabinet table. Norman Tebbit and Leon Brittan. Clegg and Cameron have got as much common ground as any of those pairings.

 

Landslide governments often have to have as much compromise as a hairline coalition because of the sheer volume of backbenchers to contain. Thatcher and Blair had plenty of that in their "strong governments".

 

Our big political parties are huge coalitions of opinion. It's certainly not a bad thing.

 

Whoever wins the next election, they'll be a coalition formed, even if there's a landslide.

[dune]

Yeah BNP would get 2nd, 3rd and 4th from you.

 

In a General election i'd vote Conservative, UKIP and then BNP.

 

In a European election i'd vote UKIP, BNP and then Conservative.

[trousers]

If you go to a restaurant and select your favorite dish and are then told it is currently off would you leave immediately or choose something else off the menu?

 

And I thought my analogies were bad... ;-)

[trousers]

One lack of a swallow does not make a lack of a summer.

 

Sounds familiar...Are you my wife?

[trousers]

So, under a 'perfect' PR system, is a party that gains 1.9% of the total vote entitled to 1.9% of the seats, or can we decide they are not if we, ( whoever 'WE' are ), don't approve of their policies ?

 

In terms of the total UK vote, that is more than the SNP, the DUP, Sinn Fein, Plaid Cymru, and the Greens,- all of whom won seats in 2010.

 

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. No, I was saying that he was advocating that FPTP is 'better' than true PR because under FPTP you have to amass a sizeable number of votes before you can be represented in parliament.

 

I'm not saying that PR is inherently wrong. It is technically the 'most fair' system. I'm simple highlighting that some people believe true PR can lead to extremists getting more of a say in the running of the country. Which, again, depending on opinion is either a good or bad thing...

[pap]

To be fair mate, they do. If they used FPTP the program would be over after the first week.

 

 

It's all a bit academic though because the NO campaign are going to walk it. Which really, will be fine. Landslides and Coalitions are just as likely in both systems, and both have their merits and faults.

 

The key thing to remember is that all governments are coalitions. All of them.

 

Michael Howard and Ken Clarke sat round a cabinet table. Gordon Brown and Alan Milburn round a cabinet table. Norman Tebbit and Leon Brittan. Clegg and Cameron have got as much common ground as any of those pairings.

 

Landslide governments often have to have as much compromise as a hairline coalition because of the sheer volume of backbenchers to contain. Thatcher and Blair had plenty of that in their "strong governments".

 

Our big political parties are huge coalitions of opinion. It's certainly not a bad thing.

 

Whoever wins the next election, they'll be a coalition formed, even if there's a landslide.

 

Good post.

[pedg]

Sounds familiar...Are you my wife?

 

I don't know. Were you also in a drunken haze in the Las Vegas Happy Endings wedding chapel on August the 13th 1986?

[Jonnyboy]

In a General election i'd vote Conservative, UKIP and then BNP.

 

In a European election i'd vote UKIP, BNP and then Conservative.

 

Racist

[pedg]

And I thought my analogies were bad... ;-)

 

My point was that those in favor of AV are not 'indecisive'. Most have clear idea of who their first preference would be but are able to rank one of more of the other candidates that they would prefer if their preferred candidate is eliminated. Just as if my preferred meal is off the menu at a restaurant I am able to go though the other dishes I would like until one is available.

[Wes Tender]

Having read all the points of view I have decided that AV is for people who can't make up their minds about what they want.

 

You're describing the typical Lib Dem voter here.

[Wes Tender]

i doubt it has protest votes would go to other partys and normally their is a limit of the national vote around the country they would need to achieve to- keep out far right and far left.more likely you would see the rise of the green party has a force.

 

Could you rewrite this in English, please?

[solentstars]

In a General election i'd vote Conservative, UKIP and then BNP.

 

In a European election i'd vote UKIP, BNP and then Conservative.

 

wow how come i,m not surprised

[solentstars]

Having read all the points of view I have decided that AV is for people who can't make up their minds about what they want.

 

i think av voters are more likely to use their intelligence when they vote, rather than the fptp lot who are the usual cannon fodder for their parties;)

Edited 29 April, 2011 by solentstars

[Verbal]

Could you rewrite this in English, please?

 

Would your Lordship like to reenter the debate on here in some slightly more substantive way? You were given very comprehensive rebuttals to some pretty weak arguments or supporting FPTP. If you've now switched sides as a result, welcome to liberal elite.

[solentstars]

Could you rewrite this in English, please?

 

for you i will rewrite it in irish :rolleyes:guvnor

[aintforever]

 

This pretty much sums it up for me.

 

Can any of the no supporters on here explain why it's right to go to the coffee shop when most people want a beer....

Edited 29 April, 2011 by aintforever

[Wes Tender]

Would your Lordship like to reenter the debate on here in some slightly more substantive way? You were given very comprehensive rebuttals to some pretty weak arguments or supporting FPTP. If you've now switched sides as a result, welcome to liberal elite.

 

As I said earlier, there is little point in saying anything further, as it has all been said over and over again. The matter will have been resolved by close of play on the 5th and the voting public will have spoken. If the result is that the No vote prevails, then it must be because they consider that the current system is fair, or at least better than AV, or would you conclude that the voting public are thick? That is the usual position adopted by those who support the AV position, especially the Lib Dems, who pretend that they are only interested in fairness, when really they are pursuing their own party's self-interest, the same as the others.

[aintforever]

I think the no vote will probably win, mainly because:

 

1. It was Clegg's idea, and he is about as popular as Bin Laden at the moment.

2. A large proportion of voters are usually old, old people don't like change.

3. A large proportion of voters support their party like it's a football team and will do whatever their leaders tell them without engaging their brain.

[badgerx16]

As I said earlier, there is little point in saying anything further, as it has all been said over and over again. The matter will have been resolved by close of play on the 5th and the voting public will have spoken. If the result is that the No vote prevails, then it must be because they consider that the current system is fair, or at least better than AV, or would you conclude that the voting public are thick? That is the usual position adopted by those who support the AV position, especially the Lib Dems, who pretend that they are only interested in fairness, when really they are pursuing their own party's self-interest, the same as the others.

The majority of MPs at Westminster do not have any form of mandate from the majority of the voters who turned out in their constituencies in 2010. There are NO MPs with a majority of the electoral roll in their constituency. FPTP has led to huge numbers of voters feeling disenchanted or disenfranchised; try being a Tory supporter in a safe Labour seat, or vice versa; try being a Green/BNP/UKIP supporter ANYWHERE - the current system fails them to the extent that many can't be bothered to use their mandate. If there is a NO vote it will be due to the negative propaganda being served up by both major parties in defending their own narrow interests, and, in part, to the fact that many people simply can't be ar$ed because they have lost all confidence in the concept of 'Government of the people, for the people, by the people". If you do happen to be a Tory in a Labour safe seat, or vice versa, you probably don't bother to waste your time, and trust that elsewhere sufficient swing voters in the 20% of seats that actually affect the outcome will support your particular point of view.

[Verbal]

As I said earlier, there is little point in saying anything further, as it has all been said over and over again. The matter will have been resolved by close of play on the 5th and the voting public will have spoken. If the result is that the No vote prevails, then it must be because they consider that the current system is fair, or at least better than AV, or would you conclude that the voting public are thick? That is the usual position adopted by those who support the AV position, especially the Lib Dems, who pretend that they are only interested in fairness, when really they are pursuing their own party's self-interest, the same as the others.

 

Sadly, you have a poor grasp of logic and politics it seems, Lord T. If you read back over the thread, you'll find plenty of convincing argument showing how poor turnouts and a sense of disenfranchisement are a consequence, at least in part, of FPTP. I don't recall ANY Yes supporter on here saying the public is 'thick' (how did you come by such a weird conclusion, except presumably to suit your own ill-thought out conclusions?) - only that we need an electoral system that (1) weakens the latter-day rotten boroughs, safe seats, (2) weakens the hold of single-issue, protest-vote parties, and (3) gives everyone a sense that their votes actually count.

 

Have a little think, read the thread again, and get back on here. I have a 'liberal elite' sew-on badge all ready for you.

[solentstars]

The majority of MPs at Westminster do not have any form of mandate from the majority of the voters who turned out in their constituencies in 2010. There are NO MPs with a majority of the electoral roll in their constituency. FPTP has led to huge numbers of voters feeling disenchanted or disenfranchised; try being a Tory supporter in a safe Labour seat, or vice versa; try being a Green/BNP/UKIP supporter ANYWHERE - the current system fails them to the extent that many can't be bothered to use their mandate. If there is a NO vote it will be due to the negative propaganda being served up by both major parties in defending their own narrow interests, and, in part, to the fact that many people simply can't be ar$ed because they have lost all confidence in the concept of 'Government of the people, for the people, by the people". If you do happen to be a Tory in a Labour safe seat, or vice versa, you probably don't bother to waste your time, and trust that elsewhere sufficient swing voters in the 20% of seats that actually affect the outcome will support your particular point of view.

wasting your time hes dos not get it ,the idea that every mp regardless of party would need over 50% of their voters to get elected by all their electors in their seat.

he prefers governments formed by 36 to 39% of the vote" --who would have thought we had problems with our education system.

[Whitey Grandad]

If you go to a restaurant and select your favorite dish and are then told it is currently off would you leave immediately or choose something else off the menu?

 

I might go to another restaurant, because I can be pig-headed stubborn sometimes, but to be honest I wouldn't visit that restaurant if it didn't have my favourite dish.

[pedg]

I might go to another restaurant

 

So you might go or you might stay? Sounds like you are the sort of person who can't make up their minds about what they want.

[Whitey Grandad]

So you might go or you might stay? Sounds like you are the sort of person who can't make up their minds about what they want.

 

Not until I've seen what's on offer.

[pedg]

Not until I've seen what's on offer.

 

So I am guessing you would not be happy if even if you did not like it you did not get a choice and had to eat what 36% of the restaurant customers had chosen as there favorite?