Andrew Lansley

[bridge too far]

Oh, and another thing NickNick

 

If these stupid Lansley 'reforms' go ahead, there'll be even more redundant property with the disbandment of strategic health authorities and PCTs. There will be, at the same time, a demand from GP consortia for additional accommodation to house all the administrative staff they're going to need to do 'local purchasing'.

 

Unfortunately, the vacant properties will not be in the right places to satisfy the requirements of the GP consortia as the GPs will require expansion to their surgeries or additional rented office space near to their surgeries.

 

So that'll probably eat up a few million in additional office rent.

 

I don't defend the indefensible. But I do speak from experience. Unfortunately, too many people make pronouncements without actually understanding the situation. I'd probably include Andrew Lansley in this.

[OldNick]

But Nick, you'd be the first to moan if the NHS BOUGHT office blocks.

 

NHS Estates managers DO have an asset register that includes owned and rented property. They DO try to dispose of redundant assets where possible. The problem is that constant reorganisation (by governments of all hues) means that properties are leased to satisfy current needs and then no longer required. They can't just walk away from leases and, if you look around any town centre, you'll see that there are a lot of empty commercial properties - there is an office in my town that we were interested in and it's still empty after 3 years. So sub-letting isn't as easy as it seems.

 

I worked for two NHS Trusts' Estate departments over 10 years and I can assure you it's not as cut and dried as you're trying to make out. I don't know of any Estates managers sunning themselves in Spain (and I know a fair few). An Estates manager responsible for an estate of 3 hospitals and various leased offices would be lucky to earn £40-50K a year so his / her pension (probably £10K pa on average) wouldn't go far.

they may have soem redundant property unable to be let but over £2bn worth Lol.

The property that was mentioned in the report in Christchurch had been empty for years and years, i recall 20 years. That is some bit of business that has cost the NHS hundreds of thousands of pounds alone. It is easy to point the finger at the government about cuts but I suggest that the NHS should take on the job of making the animal more streamlined and not expect a year on year increase in budget to sate the demand for more money. Get the house in order first, then spend that.

[OldNick]

Oh, and another thing NickNick

 

If these stupid Lansley 'reforms' go ahead, there'll be even more redundant property with the disbandment of strategic health authorities and PCTs. There will be, at the same time, a demand from GP consortia for additional accommodation to house all the administrative staff they're going to need to do 'local purchasing'.

 

Unfortunately, the vacant properties will not be in the right places to satisfy the requirements of the GP consortia as the GPs will require expansion to their surgeries or additional rented office space near to their surgeries.

 

So that'll probably eat up a few million in additional office rent.

 

I don't defend the indefensible. But I do speak from experience. Unfortunately, too many people make pronouncements without actually understanding the situation. I'd probably include Andrew Lansley in this.

You may speak from experience but perhaps the mindset is the problem and you have ot think out of the box, not keep going for the easy and lazy option of expecting the gravy train to keep rolling. You, if I recall tried a business in the private sector and know how difficult that is.

The NHS is a special asset ,and most of the population wants it to thrive but get hacked off when all we hear is that doctors and nurses will be cut when it seems clear to me that there are so many other excesses that could go first.

Ask yourself why do the managers say 'If we dont get what we want nurses and doctors will be cut' It is all about exerting pressure on the politicians as they know how sensitive that is.

It is cynical exploitation.

[bridge too far]

Too simple Nick. Sorry you choose to generalise instead of trying to understand the practicalities of situations.

 

As you say, I know how hard it is in the private sector. I also know how tough it is in the public sector and how frustrating it is sometimes. But, until I retired, I was back in the private sector but auditing the public sector - the best and worst of both worlds.

 

From this most recent experience I can tell you that NHS managers (many of whom are still practising clinicians) work as hard as they can to deliver value for money. It's just that the likes of the Tory party and its clarions the Torygraph and the Daily Heil choose to overstate and exaggerate minute details because they are driven by an agenda.

 

If, like me, you watched the excellent 3 part series on children's cranio-facial surgery at the John Radcliffe Hospital in Oxford, you would have wept with humility at the sheer brilliance of the procedures carried out there - all for free thanks to our NHS. I was privileged to have worked on the project that delivered that wonderful centre and I can tell you it is served brilliantly, not just by surgeons but by countless support staff including administrators, porters, cooks and cleaners. Oh, and managers without whom the centre would struggle to carry on its day-to-day tasks as well as its outstanding surgical procedures.

[OldNick]

Too simple Nick. Sorry you choose to generalise instead of trying to understand the practicalities of situations.

 

As you say, I know how hard it is in the private sector. I also know how tough it is in the public sector and how frustrating it is sometimes. But, until I retired, I was back in the private sector but auditing the public sector - the best and worst of both worlds.

 

From this most recent experience I can tell you that NHS managers (many of whom are still practising clinicians) work as hard as they can to deliver value for money. It's just that the likes of the Tory party and its clarions the Torygraph and the Daily Heil choose to overstate and exaggerate minute details because they are driven by an agenda.

 

If, like me, you watched the excellent 3 part series on children's cranio-facial surgery at the John Radcliffe Hospital in Oxford, you would have wept with humility at the sheer brilliance of the procedures carried out there - all for free thanks to our NHS. I was privileged to have worked on the project that delivered that wonderful centre and I can tell you it is served brilliantly, not just by surgeons but by countless support staff including administrators, porters, cooks and cleaners. Oh, and managers without whom the centre would struggle to carry on its day-to-day tasks as well as its outstanding surgical procedures.

there you go , doing exactly what the NHS has done every time things are tough. Go on the guilt trip about how good things are in the hospitals.

It is down to waste and money wasted that there are not more centres of excellence where these specialist practices can go on. it is down to the sit on your hands and waste the budget that are costing us having far more nurses and doctors to do these jobs, not the nasty government. You are spouting the politics about Tories and newspapers, waste has nothing to do with them on this occasion. Waste by the way is not just kept to the NHS all the goverment departments need looking at and if savings are made less jobs would be cut

[bridge too far]

And there YOU go Nick - repeating the Tory mantra. What personal illustration do YOU have of waste (from your own observation, not from something you've read)? You weren't able to name any redundant buildings for me I notice.

 

What experience do YOU have of how to run a hospital or even a hospital's department? I don't know what line of business you're in, but I bet you'd be pretty ******ed off if I started criticising your way of doing business without knowing the slightest thing about it.

 

I would hazard a guess that your experience of the NHS is as a user? Well, I use Marks and Spencers but I haven't got the foggiest idea of how to run it. It's a bit like what happened to us this morning. Half-way through our Waitrose shopping when the fire alarms went off. We had to wait an hour and a half before we could get back into the store but you wouldn't believe the number of moaning minnies criticising the staff for not letting them in. Did they understand what was really happening? Did they bu$$ery - they just came out with stuff like 'oh I expect it's some jobsworth holding things up'. (It was no such thing - it was an electrical fire in the ceiling void). But hey ho - they knew best. Prats!

 

I'm not on a guilt trip. I'm just praising the NHS for what it does so brilliantly. Jeez, I bet children in countries without an NHS wouldn't get such amazing treatment (probably wouldn't get ANY such treatment unless they had wealthy parents)

 

It's a shame more people don't praise this wonderful asset we have instead of constantly knocking it.

[revolution saint]

And there YOU go Nick - repeating the Tory mantra. What personal illustration do YOU have of waste (from your own observation, not from something you've read)? You weren't able to name any redundant buildings for me I notice.

 

What experience do YOU have of how to run a hospital or even a hospital's department? I don't know what line of business you're in, but I bet you'd be pretty ******ed off if I started criticising your way of doing business without knowing the slightest thing about it.

 

I would hazard a guess that your experience of the NHS is as a user? Well, I use Marks and Spencers but I haven't got the foggiest idea of how to run it. It's a bit like what happened to us this morning. Half-way through our Waitrose shopping when the fire alarms went off. We had to wait an hour and a half before we could get back into the store but you wouldn't believe the number of moaning minnies criticising the staff for not letting them in. Did they understand what was really happening? Did they bu$$ery - they just came out with stuff like 'oh I expect it's some jobsworth holding things up'. (It was no such thing - it was an electrical fire in the ceiling void). But hey ho - they knew best. Prats!

 

I'm not on a guilt trip. I'm just praising the NHS for what it does so brilliantly. Jeez, I bet children in countries without an NHS wouldn't get such amazing treatment (probably wouldn't get ANY such treatment unless they had wealthy parents)

 

It's a shame more people don't praise this wonderful asset we have instead of constantly knocking it.

 

I read an article years ago that said most people thought waiting list durations were far too long and that their perception of the NHS was was a poor one. When they were asked about their own personal experiences (or people they knew) then their responses were overwhelmingly positive. As I say this was years ago and under Tory rule although I'm not trying to make a political point here - merely that what is perceived as recognised wisdom (in this case "waste") doesn't always stack up or backed up by evidence.

 

I did a year in the NHS and my own personal experience was that the vast majority of staff worked incredibly hard and IMO was probably the closest culture to a private industry as any of the public sector employers I've worked for. There were very real targets that had to be achieved and no cultural acceptance of failure.

 

Personally I think that the work done on reducing waiting list durations has been incredible - we seem to forget that every election was dominated by this subject but now it's hardly mentioned. This work was largely done by administrators and managers and enable clinicians to do what they are best at, which is being clinicians. It also seems fairly obvious to me that in most cases trained administrators and managers are best at doing the administrative functions of the NHS - and they get results.

 

Ironically the most waste I saw during my time was with PFI, and large IT projects involving the private sector and that was due to large handcuffed contracts that didn't make any financial sense.

 

Just to even the score a bit I then went on to join the civil service - now there is a world of difference between the NHS and the civil service and at times I'd be hard pressed to defend them against the charge of waste or having a culture that prevented getting things done.

[OldNick]

And there YOU go Nick - repeating the Tory mantra. What personal illustration do YOU have of waste (from your own observation, not from something you've read)? You weren't able to name any redundant buildings for me I notice.

 

What experience do YOU have of how to run a hospital or even a hospital's department? I don't know what line of business you're in, but I bet you'd be pretty ******ed off if I started criticising your way of doing business without knowing the slightest thing about it.

 

I would hazard a guess that your experience of the NHS is as a user? Well, I use Marks and Spencers but I haven't got the foggiest idea of how to run it. It's a bit like what happened to us this morning. Half-way through our Waitrose shopping when the fire alarms went off. We had to wait an hour and a half before we could get back into the store but you wouldn't believe the number of moaning minnies criticising the staff for not letting them in. Did they understand what was really happening? Did they bu$$ery - they just came out with stuff like 'oh I expect it's some jobsworth holding things up'. (It was no such thing - it was an electrical fire in the ceiling void). But hey ho - they knew best. Prats!

 

I'm not on a guilt trip. I'm just praising the NHS for what it does so brilliantly. Jeez, I bet children in countries without an NHS wouldn't get such amazing treatment (probably wouldn't get ANY such treatment unless they had wealthy parents)

 

It's a shame more people don't praise this wonderful asset we have instead of constantly knocking it.

The building is in Christchurch, i dont know its name as i dont have a list of NHS assets. I am not criticising the NHS as i think it is good. That has nothing to do with cutting the waste, not doctors or nurses but waste. The redundant buildings and rents/rates going out on these are stopping the frontline services getting more funds. i dont see why you are so protective of the managers and staff who do not seem to be able to get their fingers out and make the savings. i know youare very close and so perhaps are showing loyalty. 2bn worth of un-used empty property that the NHS own according to the report, let alone the millions on rent rates etc on empty property. Why are you unable to find that offensive to people who work to pay taxes that then go into this waste?

[bridge too far]

Because Nick you can't just walk away from leases as you well know. Only today I'm reading about Mothercare shutting hundreds of shops. Their spokesman said 'luckily many of the leases are due to expire'. So they won't be liable for rents on those shops.

 

I had a shop - when we looked into moving to larger premises we were hindered by the lease on the existing shop. In the current economic climate, it's a very difficult job to get rid of property no longer required.

 

I've seen waste in the NHS many times. I used to audit the NHS FFS! The worst case? When I was a procurement manager and had negotiated a big contract at very good prices for hip and knee joints. It was to no avail because the orthopaedic surgeon managing the department wanted us to continue to use Exeter hips and knees, even though they were way more expensive than the ones I'd sourced. Because that's what he'd always used! And he carried more clout than me.

 

Nonetheless, during my time in that job, we managed to secure 6% savings year on year on the non-pay budget.

 

There is waste in all industries and service sectors. I could equally complain about inefficiencies in the private sector that cost me money and about which I have no choice. I'm currently in dispute with a kitchen manufacturer about a cupboard door that has been replaced 3 times and is still wrong. I dread to think how much that has cost in terms of their time, the fitter's time, my time. Somebody will be picking up the bill for that. Not me, but future customers no doubt.

[OldNick]

Because Nick you can't just walk away from leases as you well know. Only today I'm reading about Mothercare shutting hundreds of shops. Their spokesman said 'luckily many of the leases are due to expire'. So they won't be liable for rents on those shops.

 

I had a shop - when we looked into moving to larger premises we were hindered by the lease on the existing shop. In the current economic climate, it's a very difficult job to get rid of property no longer required.

 

I've seen waste in the NHS many times. I used to audit the NHS FFS! The worst case? When I was a procurement manager and had negotiated a big contract at very good prices for hip and knee joints. It was to no avail because the orthopaedic surgeon managing the department wanted us to continue to use Exeter hips and knees, even though they were way more expensive than the ones I'd sourced. Because that's what he'd always used! And he carried more clout than me.

 

Nonetheless, during my time in that job, we managed to secure 6% savings year on year on the non-pay budget.

 

There is waste in all industries and service sectors. I could equally complain about inefficiencies in the private sector that cost me money and about which I have no choice. I'm currently in dispute with a kitchen manufacturer about a cupboard door that has been replaced 3 times and is still wrong. I dread to think how much that has cost in terms of their time, the fitter's time, my time. Somebody will be picking up the bill for that. Not me, but future customers no doubt.

I agree leases can be hard to shift , perhaps like some highly paid PL footballers on massive contracts. The building in Christchurch that was on the national media still had 50 years to go. now why not bite the bullet and take half the rent and at least get some money back in.

I suspect there is so much property and leases to be watched that a lot gets under the radar and just gets paid. new people come in to oversee the portfolio etc and they may miss the properties that were signed for 25 years ago and like the general public see a name of a property on the list and not realise it is empty. If they do visit or know it certainly is a poor decision not to do anything about it, especially as the car parking spaces at that site were also costing 7k a year.

[dubai_phil]

Because Nick you can't just walk away from leases as you well know. Only today I'm reading about Mothercare shutting hundreds of shops. Their spokesman said 'luckily many of the leases are due to expire'. So they won't be liable for rents on those shops.

 

I had a shop - when we looked into moving to larger premises we were hindered by the lease on the existing shop. In the current economic climate, it's a very difficult job to get rid of property no longer required.

 

I've seen waste in the NHS many times. I used to audit the NHS FFS! The worst case? When I was a procurement manager and had negotiated a big contract at very good prices for hip and knee joints. It was to no avail because the orthopaedic surgeon managing the department wanted us to continue to use Exeter hips and knees, even though they were way more expensive than the ones I'd sourced. Because that's what he'd always used! And he carried more clout than me.

 

Nonetheless, during my time in that job, we managed to secure 6% savings year on year on the non-pay budget.

 

There is waste in all industries and service sectors. I could equally complain about inefficiencies in the private sector that cost me money and about which I have no choice. I'm currently in dispute with a kitchen manufacturer about a cupboard door that has been replaced 3 times and is still wrong. I dread to think how much that has cost in terms of their time, the fitter's time, my time. Somebody will be picking up the bill for that. Not me, but future customers no doubt.

 

Sitting from miles away and obviously with no NHS visits for 18+ years I would tend to agree with you BTF that within the current system there probably is a decent job being done on keeping efficiences. But what you post does highlight is the (little c) conservatism of the mighty beast - your eg of the surgeon who wouldn't change. Now that may be for technical reasons but it may be for the "That's the way it's done reasons."

 

My only possible input into this debate is to pose the question. What if you tore up everything there is about Health Provision by the State and started from a clean sheet of paper that required the Patient to get what they wanted when and where they wanted it? Blue Sky thinking it gets called.

 

For example. Down here the mixed up Private/State system has had to grow incredibly quickly due to the huge growth of the population. Now what HAS evolved is interesting.

 

The old "Doctors Surgery" of 18 years ago evolved to add dental practices. They found that by keeping some services in house they could increase the money they made for services so they started to bring in new generation X-Ray machines & technicians. Now for the patient that saved a lot of time and energy - see your quack get X-Ray and get instant diagnosis or referral. Again as they grew they added their own specialists so go see the quack with a sinus problem, you go straight upstairs to the ENT man.

 

Again, as time passed what has actually happened is that these old GP surgeries have developed into mini-community hospitals. They take up the space of an average football field and the patient gets in gets fixed and out again. My old quack now has a full pre and anti-natal facility and added a Plastic Surgery (Boob) factory (as that makes more money for them)

 

So as a PATIENT, I had to have Cartlidge surgery 12 years ago, went through the GP who sent me to a specialist who sent me 30 miles to a hospital who fixed it for me leaving me 2 trips back to the hospital for post op checks then sending me somewhere else to get a Physio. My mate had hsi done last week, all in the same "mini-community" hospital.

 

I remember many years ago the complaints as the Cottage Hospitals all got closed down and the stories of Ambulances hurtling along country raods to A&E, in the name of Efficiency, and Big is good. Yet watching pure "Capitalist" elements at work, I now have 3 mini hospitals within 5 miles of me (as well as one major "State" one) and see that actually the Cottage or Community or Super GP route is actually the most efficient AND provides a far better service .

 

Anyway the provision of health care by the state is Sacrosanct. I think there may well be better ways of providing it than "the old way". I have no idea if the proposals are any good and my thoughts on Lansley from the little I've seen of him on Sky is "Why is he in a Job at all?"

[Minty]

King's Fund report on leadership in the NHS, released today. Some very interesting and pertinent observations (as you would hope): http://bit.ly/ls4oIj

 

Including:

 

"The coalition government's current plan to cut administration costs by 33 per cent and the number of management posts by 45 per cent must be revisited. There is no persuasive evidence that the NHS is over-managed, and a good deal of evidence that it may be under-managed. While administration and management costs will have to take at least their fair share of the pain as real-terms growth in NHS spending ceases, a more sophisticated approach to the reduction in both is needed."

 

"There is appreciable evidence that the NHS is over-administered as a result of extensive, overlapping and duplicating demands from both regulators and performance managers. There has not been a substantive review of the information demands placed on the service and its providers for many years. A review leading to a rationalisation of those demands is essential."

 

"In the light of a run of serious failures of both leadership and management in the NHS, the commission acknowledges the need for a more effective mechanism to debar individuals who have clearly been culpable from holding executive positions in health care."

 

I wonder if and how the Government will try and ignore this report...

[bridge too far]

I agree leases can be hard to shift , perhaps like some highly paid PL footballers on massive contracts. The building in Christchurch that was on the national media still had 50 years to go. now why not bite the bullet and take half the rent and at least get some money back in.

I suspect there is so much property and leases to be watched that a lot gets under the radar and just gets paid. new people come in to oversee the portfolio etc and they may miss the properties that were signed for 25 years ago and like the general public see a name of a property on the list and not realise it is empty. If they do visit or know it certainly is a poor decision not to do anything about it, especially as the car parking spaces at that site were also costing 7k a year.

 

Nope - doesn't work like that. Each NHS Trust has a database of properties owned and leased. Not only does this database give information about rooms, sizes, covenants etc but it also has condition surveys. The NHS Trust is charged in keeping all property to a certain level (Condition B) and the asset register prompts annual reviews of both usage and condition.

 

I don't know anything about the Christchurch building you refer to (not living in the area) but I did find the reaction from NHS Estates managers to the original Sky article

 

http://www.hefma.org.uk/news/item/28m-a-year-spent-on-empty-buildings

 

You will see that it coincides with what I was saying.

1) Buildings are put up to serve the purpose at the time. Needs change *

2) They've been trying to get out of the contract but have been unable to do so. You say offer half-rent - supposing the leaseholder doesn't agree. What then?

3) and finally:

 

"But you can't deal with this easily during a recession. If you were to flood the market with empty properties you would simply devalue them, so it has to be done over time. There's no quick fix."

This problem will soon be exacerbated when further estates become surplus to requirements following the abolition of Primary Care Trusts. (I wonder if Lansley has factored that into his costs of reorganisation).

 

* Once upon a time, people were in hospital for a week or a fortnight following simple surgery. These days, dependent on the procedure, more than 70% and in some cases 100% of operations are carried out as a day case. Equals fewer beds - equals fewer buildings. Plus, without getting into further debate, the concentration of surgery into specialist units and the use of community hospitals as step-downs prior to home nursing / nursing homes also means fewer buildings.

 

So you see - one building remaining empty doesn't a summer make! You need the facts and understanding behind the headlines.

[$$$]

Then there is also offices in Southampton that are empty that rent is being paid on.

Can you let me know where please? I will be happy to pass this information on to the local estates department for them to look into ASAP. Of course, that would be dependent on them not being on sick leave or a fact finding mission at Disneyland…

[bridge too far]

Can you let me know where please? I will be happy to pass this information on to the local estates department for them to look into ASAP. Of course, that would be dependent on them not being on sick leave or a fact finding mission at Disneyland…

 

Why don't YOU report it to the Chief Executive then? Why don't you become proactive outraged from wherever? Or, alternatively, why don't you sit on your hands and do the square root of f... all but, instead, make childish retorts?

 

Yeah that's the thing to do:facepalm:

[OldNick]

Nope - doesn't work like that. Each NHS Trust has a database of properties owned and leased. Not only does this database give information about rooms, sizes, covenants etc but it also has condition surveys. The NHS Trust is charged in keeping all property to a certain level (Condition B) and the asset register prompts annual reviews of both usage and condition.

 

I don't know anything about the Christchurch building you refer to (not living in the area) but I did find the reaction from NHS Estates managers to the original Sky article

 

http://www.hefma.org.uk/news/item/28m-a-year-spent-on-empty-buildings

 

You will see that it coincides with what I was saying.

1) Buildings are put up to serve the purpose at the time. Needs change *

2) They've been trying to get out of the contract but have been unable to do so. You say offer half-rent - supposing the leaseholder doesn't agree. What then?

3) and finally:

 

"But you can't deal with this easily during a recession. If you were to flood the market with empty properties you would simply devalue them, so it has to be done over time. There's no quick fix."

This problem will soon be exacerbated when further estates become surplus to requirements following the abolition of Primary Care Trusts. (I wonder if Lansley has factored that into his costs of reorganisation).

 

* Once upon a time, people were in hospital for a week or a fortnight following simple surgery. These days, dependent on the procedure, more than 70% and in some cases 100% of operations are carried out as a day case. Equals fewer beds - equals fewer buildings. Plus, without getting into further debate, the concentration of surgery into specialist units and the use of community hospitals as step-downs prior to home nursing / nursing homes also means fewer buildings.

 

So you see - one building remaining empty doesn't a summer make! You need the facts and understanding behind the headlines.

if only it was only 1 building.

So 70% of cases are now day surgery, not so many beds ,less days being nursed, fewer buildings but then you say we need more money and savings can't be made.

Funny old world the NHS lives in

[bridge too far]

if only it was only 1 building.

So 70% of cases are now day surgery, not so many beds ,less days being nursed, fewer buildings but then you say we need more money and savings can't be made.

Funny old world the NHS lives in

 

You really do dig yourself into some holes buddy.

 

The reasons we need more money in the NHS are many and varied. For example:

 

1. The demographics. People are living much longer and, because of that, developing illnesses associated with old age such as dementia, eye problems, mobility problems to name a few.

 

2. The advances in medicine and surgery. I've mentioned it many times before but my mother's prescription drugs for leukaemia cost around £30K a year and she was taking them for about 7 years. Not too many years ago, she wouldn't have survived that long because the drugs hadn't been discovered. So she alone 'cost' the NHS over £200K before she died.

 

If you ever watch and understand the hugely complex multi-disciplined surgery undertaken these days (often involving teams of 10 surgeons, let alone all the associated clinicians) you'd realise where money goes nowadays. Such surgery wouldn't have been even thought of even just 10 years ago.

 

3. Diagnostic medicine. MRI doesn't just require the hugely expensive kit. It also requires specially constructed buildings with RF screening. That doesn't come cheap.

 

4. The public's desire for such things as single-sex wards. Once upon a time a Nightingale ward had 14 beds and required staffing by a (shared) sister, a staff nurse or two and a number of nurses and health care assistants. Single sex, ensuite rooms require a more intensive nursing complement because patients aren't easily monitored from a central station as before.

 

5. Remote diagnostics and telemetry. Doesn't come free.

 

Do you NOW see how it all pans out?

Edited 18 May, 2011 by bridge too far

[$$$]

Why don't YOU report it to the Chief Executive then? Why don't you become proactive outraged from wherever? Or, alternatively, why don't you sit on your hands and do the square root of f... all but, instead, make childish retorts?

 

Yeah that's the thing to do:facepalm:

 

Report what exactly to the chief exec? That some bloke from the interweb is claiming there are empty offices in Southampton for which rent is being paid. Perhaps I would be better off waiting until nick bothers to state where these offices are before kicking his door down...

[OldNick]

You really do dig yourself into some holes buddy.

 

The reasons we need more money in the NHS are many and varied. For example:

 

1. The demographics. People are living much longer and, because of that, developing illnesses associated with old age such as dementia, eye problems, mobility problems to name a few.

 

2. The advances in medicine and surgery. I've mentioned it many times before but my mother's prescription drugs for leukaemia cost around £30K a year and she was taking them for about 7 years. Not too many years ago, she wouldn't have survived that long because the drugs hadn't been discovered. So she alone 'cost' the NHS over £200K before she died.

 

If you ever watch and understand the hugely complex multi-disciplined surgery undertaken these days (often involving teams of 10 surgeons, let alone all the associated clinicians) you'd realise where money goes nowadays. Such surgery wouldn't have been even thought of even just 10 years ago.

 

3. Diagnostic medicine. MRI doesn't just require the hugely expensive kit. It also requires specially constructed buildings with RF screening. That doesn't come cheap.

 

4. The public's desire for such things as single-sex wards. Once upon a time a Nightingale ward had 14 beds and required staffing by a (shared) sister, a staff nurse or two and a number of nurses and health care assistants. Single sex, ensuite rooms require a more intensive nursing complement because patients aren't easily monitored from a central station as before.

 

5. Remote diagnostics and telemetry. Doesn't come free.

 

Do you NOW see how it all pans out?

you do come across as one patronising old bird BTF, but I'm sure you are not like it face to face

It is clear there are massive costs to the NHS but it is so easy to just pay and not sort out the waste. You were involved and it is quite concerning that you are so flippant about the waste that goes on and seem oblivious that things should be done to save money so it can be channeled to the right services.

i hate to see homes and services cut, the nation cannot afford for the budget to keep going up and up, and so to stop the cuts at the sharp end money needs to be saved at teh soft end. Empty buildings and paying high rents for empty property is an easy place to start.

Edited 19 May, 2011 by OldNick

[OldNick]

Report what exactly to the chief exec? That some bloke from the interweb is claiming there are empty offices in Southampton for which rent is being paid. Perhaps I would be better off waiting until nick bothers to state where these offices are before kicking his door down...

The reporter did not say where in Southampton.Of course the whole thing could have been made up by the media

[bridge too far]

you do come across as one patronising old bird BTF, but I'm sure you are not like it face to face

It is clear there are massive costs to the NHS but it is so easy to just pay and not sort out the waste. You were involved and it is quite concerning that you are so flippant about the waste that goes on and seem oblivious that things should be done to save money so it can be channeled to the right services.

i hate to see homes and services cut, the nation cannot afford for the budget to keep going up and up, and so to stop the cuts at the sharp end money needs to be saved at teh soft end. Empty buildings and paying high rents for empty property is an easy place to start.

 

Sorry I come across that way Nick. Old? Yes. Bird? No, I'm a woman. Patronising because I'm trying to explain how the NHS works to you, since I've had to learn this for myself as part of the various jobs I've done in the NHS? Guilty as charged.

 

I don't think I can be accused of being flippant about waste though as it has been my job *****il retirement) to audit and report on the very waste you're talking about. I wouldn't have lasted in my job if I'd ignored this. In fact, I very quickly rose through the ranks from office manager to Project Manager / Procurement Manager / Principal Auditor in the space of 10 years so I must have been doing something right.

 

All I'm trying to do Old Nick is to suggest to you that things are not always as they seem in the press and that there's often far more to a 'story' than meets the eye. If you were to tell me about your business and how it runs, I'd respect what you have to say because you know more than me about it. Please accord me the same respect.

 

Stupid swear filter won't let me type ( until )

[OldNick]

Sorry I come across that way Nick. Old? Yes. Bird? No, I'm a woman. Patronising because I'm trying to explain how the NHS works to you, since I've had to learn this for myself as part of the various jobs I've done in the NHS? Guilty as charged.

 

I don't think I can be accused of being flippant about waste though as it has been my job *****il retirement) to audit and report on the very waste you're talking about. I wouldn't have lasted in my job if I'd ignored this. In fact, I very quickly rose through the ranks from office manager to Project Manager / Procurement Manager / Principal Auditor in the space of 10 years so I must have been doing something right.

 

All I'm trying to do Old Nick is to suggest to you that things are not always as they seem in the press and that there's often far more to a 'story' than meets the eye. If you were to tell me about your business and how it runs, I'd respect what you have to say because you know more than me about it. Please accord me the same respect.

 

Stupid swear filter won't let me type ( until )

iam not doubting your qualities, you are obviously a very intelligent person. I understand a lot of what you say about waste but we all miss things in front of our eyes. I have been in my business for over 35years and been fairly successful but I am not arrogant enough to think that younger fresher and people looking from a different angle may see things i miss. To audit such a vast budget must be a nightmare.

 

Another thing that in one of your posts you mention the cost of drugs that your mother had. I think you said it had a cost of 200k. Only a few of us will pay that much and more into the kitty in our lifetime. I wonder how the nation can afford that especially as it is replicated 100,000's a times a year on patients of the NHS.

All life is precious but how can we go on affording these costs? I'am not saying it shouldn't be done but where do the funds keep coming from? As we live longer the costs are just shooting up therefore saving where we can becomes more important. Those empty buildings are using precious resources.

[bridge too far]

iam not doubting your qualities, you are obviously a very intelligent person. I understand a lot of what you say about waste but we all miss things in front of our eyes. I have been in my business for over 35years and been fairly successful but I am not arrogant enough to think that younger fresher and people looking from a different angle may see things i miss. To audit such a vast budget must be a nightmare.

 

Another thing that in one of your posts you mention the cost of drugs that your mother had. I think you said it had a cost of 200k. Only a few of us will pay that much and more into the kitty in our lifetime. I wonder how the nation can afford that especially as it is replicated 100,000's a times a year on patients of the NHS.

All life is precious but how can we go on affording these costs? I'am not saying it shouldn't be done but where do the funds keep coming from? As we live longer the costs are just shooting up therefore saving where we can becomes more important. Those empty buildings are using precious resources.

 

I would ask the same question, Nick. My mother's quality of life was very poor at the end (she also had diabetes and had lost her sight as a result of this). So, she was blind, and could hardly move. She was taking drugs for leukaemia that made her sick. She, herself, questioned the idea of taking very expensive drugs to prolong a life of comparitively poor quality. In the end she stopped taking them - and died. It could be argued that the cost of her treatment was a waste.

 

But there's the other end of the story too. These days, babies can survive at 23 weeks gestation. That's fantastic. But those babies, more often than not, have a host of medical complications that cost a fortune to deal with (sometimes to no avail). Is that money also wasted?

 

It's a huge moral dilemma and one I'm thankful I don't have to make a judgement on.