david in sweden Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 for celebrating. ? Lee Barnard fell foul of the procedure on Saturday, and it might ultimately contribute to a longer suspension. I thought the idea sounded a bit stupid from the very start, but it was supposed to put a stop to players revealing a message on their vests..like ...Bloggs for best tyres ..or even Jesus Saves ..) but apparantly ..like warnings on cigarette packets..it doesn't discourage people from doing it, rather like the practice of swearing. There's a difference between swearing at an official ..and doing so to an opponent whose just fouled you ..or swearing at yourself... when you missed a open goal from 3 yards. In the heat of the moment, few people might stop to think twice about their reactions. " Pardon me referee, but I'm pretty sure that fellow was offside ..." or " Oh ..I'm sure you didn't mean to kick me, but my ankle does hurt ... or finally .." oh silly me , I should have scored that one - shouldn't I ? I have to say that players must get a real "high" from scoring in League games, and the fans also of course but what sort of "celebration" is acceptable ..and which not so?. Removing shirts does seem a bit stupid, but not nearly as bad as someone who might remove their shorts !!, but nevertheless it still seems a bit ridiculous to me that a player knows he will be yellow carded..or as has happened to " someone " in a Saints shirt ..was it Stern John?...getting a red, as they had already been booked earlier in the game. What do you think ..? ...should some goal celebrations be punished, and if so what is acceptable, and what is not. For my part I think that having 10 other guys jump on you to congratulate you is the most stupid of all, as it could cause injury ..and actually did finish the career of an Ipswich ..or was it Arsenal player ??...(name escapes me) ..who scored the winner in an FA Cup Final and the resulting "pyramid " celebration injured him so badly, he never played again. Thoughts anyone ?
(not THE) Kevin Moore Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 for celebrating. ? ..or was it Arsenal player ??...(name escapes me) ..who scored the winner in an FA Cup Final and the resulting "pyramid " celebration injured him so badly, he never played again. Thoughts anyone ? Steve Morrow got dropped by Tony Adams in the post match celebrations for the league cup years ago, dunno if he was the goal scorer but he broke his shoulder/collar bone. Is that what you were thinking about? I think it's difficult to legislate for goal celebrations and they should stop trying, it's all about protecting the rights of the sponsors rather than anything else, when a player scores it's an ideal time for the sponsor because the logo is featured in close up, only it doesn't happen if the player hoicks his shirt off. Personally, when I've scored goals I've pretty much gone bat**** mental every time... and that's just Sunday League parks football, god knows how mental you go in front of 32k fans and playing in a CRUCIAL relegation decider (a la Stern John).
The9 Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 The actual reasons for the shirt removal thing becoming a football "law" are arguable at best - I've heard at least 3 different reasons for it given by FIFA / the FA / randoms. 1) Crowd incitement (which can happen shirt on or off) 2) Preventing players revealing slogans (covered by other laws anyway, and not stopped by the celebration law which is only during goal celebrations) 3) To prevent offence in muslim countries (like FIFA care about that when their main tournament is sponsored by Budweiser) In addition, Barnard's yellow WON'T contribute to a further suspension, it was for incitement by running front of the home fans and given that he clearly WAS inciting the home fans, can't really argue with it. I think everything should be allowed other than actually directly addressing celebrations to goal-conceding opposing fans - and the ref should allow the conceding team to kick off as soon as the scorers have 7 players in their own half, ready or not.
keithd Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 on a side issue, i thought the reason taking your shirt off was a yellow offence was to protect the shirt sponsors. The point of scoring a goal is, obviously, the most photographed/replayed part of the game. so if the shirt is off mr a.n.other who has paid millions to have his name on his shirt and its nowhere to be seen
The9 Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 Graham Poll says "the instruction to referees within Law 12 was intended to stop the display of political messages or slogans and was necessary when, in 2002, shirts consisted of two joined layers which were very difficult to get back on when damp. In those cases players were cautioned for delaying the restart of play." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1173330/Graham-Poll-We-don-8217-t-need-collar-shirt-criminals.html I call bollshetz on that one, he's referring to ONE incident with Diego Forlan, hardly a reason for an entire law...
The9 Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 Additional shirt removal yellow card reasons given by (some) mentals on threads about it on the web: *Intimidating to the opposition (!) *FIFA want more exposure for sponsors *Time-wasting (which was an offence already anyway) *Not being able to identify a player None of these cover the specifics, which are during celebration and if the shirt is pulled over the head or exposes the chest - EVEN if there's another shirt underneath. Of course the real skill is to manage to remove an undershirt with a message on it without taking the overshirt off. Velcro shoulder straps anyone ?
Jimmy_D Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 If I was good enough to play professional football, I'd have an exact replica shirt on underneath, and celebrate by throwing the top one into the crowd. I'd still be wearing a shirt legal for play... would I get booked?
Appy Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 Like i said before i'm pretty sure he wasn't booked for getting at the Orient fans, i expect going into our supporters got him the yellow. Which i'll allow.
The9 Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 (edited) If I was good enough to play professional football, I'd have an exact replica shirt on underneath, and celebrate by throwing the top one into the crowd. I'd still be wearing a shirt legal for play... would I get booked? Yes, you would, the offence is removing the shirt (actually lifting up the shirt rather than actually needing to remove it) during a goal celebration, whether you have one on underneath or not is irrelevant. And just to prove it... (you might want to skip to 30 seconds) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt3mLtylRq8&feature=player_embedded ...I think that happened about a week ago. Edited 12 April, 2011 by The9
The9 Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 Like i said before i'm pretty sure he wasn't booked for getting at the Orient fans, i expect going into our supporters got him the yellow. Which i'll allow. Pretty sure it was the incitement, you have to have left the playing surface to commit the other offence, and the grass is right up to the stand at Orient.
Jimmy_D Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 Yes, you would, the offence is removing the shirt (actually lifting up the shirt rather than actually needing to remove it) during a goal celebration, whether you have one on underneath or not is irrelevant. And just to prove it... (you might want to skip to 30 seconds) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt3mLtylRq8&feature=player_embedded ...I think that happened about a week ago. Hah, I hadn't seen that, guess he had the same thought as me. Bit silly to test the theory when he was already on a yellow though. Now the only question is if the rules (and how they'd be interpreted) would be the same here...
The9 Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 Hah, I hadn't seen that, guess he had the same thought as me. Bit silly to test the theory when he was already on a yellow though. Now the only question is if the rules (and how they'd be interpreted) would be the same here... That's not a question, it's a FIFA directive, all football adheres to it. Also I happen to know it was on You Are The Ref on the Guardian website a few weeks back and Keith Hackett said exactly the same thing.
thesaint sfc Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 If I scored for Saints I would strip naked and slap SRS round the face with my willy. Do you think I'd get a yellow card for that?
The9 Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 Here it is : With the responses here : http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/nov/05/you-are-ref-tim-cahill# You Are The Ref 143 also notes that removal of shirt when NOT celebrating a goal is fine : http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/dec/31/you-are-ref-trevillion-messi#
The9 Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 (edited) If I scored for Saints I would strip naked and slap SRS round the face with my willy. Do you think I'd get a yellow card for that? Is this (number 3) close enough for you ? Keith Hackett says "goal, and book the defender". http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/dec/03/you-are-ref-wayne-rooney# - though I'd note that in leaving the playing area to go and slap SRS around the face you'd be booked, and by slapping him with a body part you'd get sent off for violent conduct. But get nekkid all you like. Edited 12 April, 2011 by The9
Minty Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 I've actually just learnt something from (the Guardian via) SaintsWeb. Who would've thought it?
Saint Lindford Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 Like i said before i'm pretty sure he wasn't booked for getting at the Orient fans, i expect going into our supporters got him the yellow. Which i'll allow. He was booked for putting his finger to his lips (ssshhhh) to the Orient fans. Clattenburg clealy indicated that when he booked him.
The9 Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 I've actually just learnt something from (the Guardian via) SaintsWeb. Who would've thought it? You could've just asked.
The9 Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 Graham Poll says "the instruction to referees within Law 12 was intended to stop the display of political messages or slogans and was necessary when, in 2002, shirts consisted of two joined layers which were very difficult to get back on when damp. In those cases players were cautioned for delaying the restart of play." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1173330/Graham-Poll-We-don-8217-t-need-collar-shirt-criminals.html I call bollshetz on that one, he's referring to ONE incident with Diego Forlan, hardly a reason for an entire law... Also I note that Hackett says it was incitement-based on that You Are The Ref link, so the truth is that no-one knows why FIFA did it, and FIFA decided not to say. Might have to find the IFAB (International Board) ruling of 2004 to see if there's anything specific in there...
Minty Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 You could've just asked. I never knew that I didn't know it, so never had the need to ask.
The9 Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 I never knew that I didn't know it, so never had the need to ask. What was it anyway ? The shirt removal with shirt under thing, the shirt removal when the match is going on thing, or the running naked into the penalty area isn't against the laws (much) thing - have you got plans for Worldnet suddenly ?
Tom & Gerry Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 Never mind the rights and wrongs of whether you should get a yellow card for taking your shirt off the fact is you will and so to do so is imho totally unprofessional. I watched football for about 40 years and never saw one player take his shirt off after scoring so you can celebrate in other ways. I'd fine any player that did it 2 weeks wages. To do what Stern John did and then get sent off for a second yellow in a crucial match was absolutely criminal.
thesaint sfc Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 Never mind the rights and wrongs of whether you should get a yellow card for taking your shirt off the fact is you will and so to do so is imho totally unprofessional. I watched football for about 40 years and never saw one player take his shirt off after scoring so you can celebrate in other ways. I'd fine any player that did it 2 weeks wages. To do what Stern John did and then get sent off for a second yellow in a crucial match was absolutely criminal. do you have mewbsphobia?
david in sweden Posted 12 April, 2011 Author Posted 12 April, 2011 Hah, I hadn't seen that, guess he had the same thought as me. Bit silly to test the theory when he was already on a yellow though. Now the only question is if the rules (and how they'd be interpreted) would be the same here... The player in that excerpt has HASSLI on his back... seem to recall that Saints had a young player on trial by that name ...some time back . Could it be the same Eric Hassli ??+
The9 Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 The player in that excerpt has HASSLI on his back... seem to recall that Saints had a young player on trial by that name ...some time back . Could it be the same Eric Hassli ??+ Yes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Hassli Via 2003–2004 Neuchâtel Xamax 13 (2) 2004–2005 Servette FC 11 (3) 2005–2006 FC St. Gallen 47 (18 ) 2006–2007 Valenciennes FC 21 (2) 2007–2011 FC Zürich No less, before he pitched up in Vancouver.
Jimmy_D Posted 12 April, 2011 Posted 12 April, 2011 The player in that excerpt has HASSLI on his back... seem to recall that Saints had a young player on trial by that name ...some time back . Could it be the same Eric Hassli ??+ Yes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Hassli Via 2003–2004 Neuchâtel Xamax 13 (2) 2004–2005 Servette FC 11 (3) 2005–2006 FC St. Gallen 47 (18 ) 2006–2007 Valenciennes FC 21 (2) 2007–2011 FC Zürich No less, before he pitched up in Vancouver. Well spotted!
hughieslastminutegoal Posted 13 April, 2011 Posted 13 April, 2011 If I scored for Saints I would strip naked and slap SRS round the face with my willy. Do you think I'd get a yellow card for that? I think you'd get a "Miracle Certificate" from the Pope.
SNSUN Posted 13 April, 2011 Posted 13 April, 2011 This thread reminds me of the goal celebration in Mike Bassett England Manager when the player gets nekkid after scoring...
david in sweden Posted 16 April, 2011 Author Posted 16 April, 2011 Steve Morrow got dropped by Tony Adams in the post match celebrations for the league cup years ago, dunno if he was the goal scorer but he broke his shoulder/collar bone. Is that what you were thinking about? QUOTE] well at first I thought it was..but in hindsight I'm not so sure that it was ? I think... it was an Ipswich player ...Russell ?????? (something) and I seem to think it was a Wembley final of some ilk.
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now