Minsk Posted 8 April, 2011 Posted 8 April, 2011 well, it was deffo no accident, 6 shots were fired.... This pretty much confirms it was a browning 9mm, crap gun! In the 'duel' incident, at 10 paces, the guy who was shot lost a lung but is still alive. Had it been an SA80............ Whatever occurred, RIP the person who died and condolences to his family; also, I hope the injured man makes a full recovery.
TopGun Posted 8 April, 2011 Posted 8 April, 2011 Council leader Royston Smith states he wrestled the gunman to the ground and disarmed him. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13020502 It might be true and without meaning to doubt Cllr Smith's account I wonder whether he has half an eye on the upcoming local elections...
Thedelldays Posted 8 April, 2011 Posted 8 April, 2011 I know that he aided the restraint of said person...everyone in the vicinity did....however, seeing as it was on his patch and he does not wear the uniform, he gets in the paper
TopGun Posted 8 April, 2011 Posted 8 April, 2011 Yes, I would imagine that to be the case. Although it appears that Royston Smith is pitching himself as a one-man action squad.
View From The Top Posted 8 April, 2011 Posted 8 April, 2011 I'm pretty sure the 'duel' incident was on a Pompey based Leander, as an old oppo of mine was the Duty PO at the time of the incident. From memory, it was during Xmas leave period, I think on New Year's Eve. They had had a few tinnies (beers) which is a strict no, no when carrying weapons. I am trying hard now to remember the suicide incident. I was one of the first Towed Array operators in the RN. My first ship was Lowestoft, when Towed Array was being trialed. I was on her for the first ever operational Towed Array patrol. I seen to recall though that the Leanders were Pompey based (Lowestoft definitely was) and that the subsequent TA Ships, Type 22's, were Guzz based. Their replacements, type 23's, were split between Pompey and Guzz. For sure, I concur that the QM and BM were always armed with Browning 9mm pistols and the Upper Deck Sentry had an SA80. N.B. My avatar is the Towed Array (Passive SONAR) crest - which was designed by an AB® called Spider Webb (I was sat next to him as he drew the original draft). Towed arrays Leanders were deffo at Guzz as I spent 4 years on one, HMS Phoebe. It must have been around 88(ish) when the QM shot himself. Sent the sprog BM off to make the brews and then blew the back of his head off. Think it was either a weekend or a main leave period. He was a good oppo of a 3 badge AB(EW) called "Scooby" Doo who was on the Phoebe with me.
Verbal Posted 8 April, 2011 Posted 8 April, 2011 Towed arrays Leanders were deffo at Guzz as I spent 4 years on one, HMS Phoebe. It must have been around 88(ish) when the QM shot himself. Sent the sprog BM off to make the brews and then blew the back of his head off. Think it was either a weekend or a main leave period. He was a good oppo of a 3 badge AB(EW) called "Scooby" Doo who was on the Phoebe with me. Have you turned into Malcolm 'Alex' McDowell?
sfc1971 Posted 8 April, 2011 Posted 8 April, 2011 I am not sure what weapon would have been used or what ammo ? When i served the QM & BM were both armed with a Browning (9MM) and whilst away upperdeck sentry had the SLR Rifle (7.62mm) or SMG (9mm) all would have done serious damage below decks on any vessel let alone a Nuke Sub, I cannot say for deffo but would suggest it may have been the SA80 mod (5.56mm) that was on trail at HMS Cambridge (Gunnery shore base Wembury) late 80`s and has a round modified to injure without damaging bulkheads/deckheads or equiptment. It is very sad news that a life has been lost and my thoughts go out to the family, But this has been long overdue in our superb armed forces with Non Com ratings that have 10+ yrs of expert service being overlooked for promotion just because daddy`s friends Son has a degree in flower arranging and gets a commision on entry. I am not saying this is what went on in this case but the more our real service personnel get put on them/shat upon (from above) the more cuts the more resentful some lower ratings will become and a perhaps a 100 yrs ago this chaps action may have started a mutiny ?? The lad must have been well peed to do what he had done. Thanks, Ex RN (75-91) Gunnery (County Class, Type 21, Type 42 Batch 1&2)
Micky Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 Tragic incident, isn't the first and probably wont be the last time that this sort of shooting takes place - but the fact that the men were meant to be comrades makes it all the harder to understand. It sounds as though it was a calculated attack though, had the guy selected automatic instead of single shots, he could have emptied the full mag in under 5 seconds. In the confines of the Ops Room of a submarine that would have been devestating and many more could have been killed or injured. Don't know what level of weapons control is exercised on Navy subs, but suspect that procedures could well be reviewed in light of this. Is there really any need to carry a loaded weapon on board whilst docked in Southampton, who knows. Sad incident for all concerned really.
Thedelldays Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 I'm answers to your questions above.. All armed sentries in the RN carry the SA80 A2 assault rifle.. A bit OTT for a submarine as so many times when conducting an armed sentry hand over you would snag the weapon and risk cocking it whilst making your way to the upper deck.. The armed sentry would have had a fully loaded magazine on his weapon but not made ready (no rounds in the chamber)... The whole armed sentry thing has been around since 9/11.. IMO, never understand why we have it in the UK.. As anywhere a sub is, home or abroad there is armed guards around it.. Take astute yesterday, armed guard from ships staff (The killer in this case). It would have had an armed reponse unit from the civvy police shore side an the MOD police would have been patrolling the water, also armed. There is even more armed security when in portsmouth or Plymouth dock yards..let alone the numerous security measure in place in faslane... Where astute is based.!!
Minsk Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 Towed arrays Leanders were deffo at Guzz as I spent 4 years on one, HMS Phoebe. It must have been around 88(ish) when the QM shot himself. Sent the sprog BM off to make the brews and then blew the back of his head off. Think it was either a weekend or a main leave period. He was a good oppo of a 3 badge AB(EW) called "Scooby" Doo who was on the Phoebe with me. You are, of course, absolutely correct. The vodka last night was affecting my already addled memory. I'm still certain that the shoot out was during a crimbo leave period and on a Pompey based Leander though. I chose the Passive route because the only ship with it at the time (Lowestoft) was Pompey based. Obviously, coming from the better end of the M27, that suited me as I was close to family and could get to the Dell for all home fixtures when were in port. However, once TA was accepted into the fleet all ships with it were then based in Guzz......
Minsk Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 I'm answers to your questions above.. All armed sentries in the RN carry the SA80 A2 assault rifle.. A bit OTT for a submarine as so many times when conducting an armed sentry hand over you would snag the weapon and risk cocking it whilst making your way to the upper deck.. The armed sentry would have had a fully loaded magazine on his weapon but not made ready (no rounds in the chamber)... The whole armed sentry thing has been around since 9/11.. IMO, never understand why we have it in the UK.. As anywhere a sub is, home or abroad there is armed guards around it.. Take astute yesterday, armed guard from ships staff (The killer in this case). It would have had an armed reponse unit from the civvy police shore side an the MOD police would have been patrolling the water, also armed. There is even more armed security when in portsmouth or Plymouth dock yards..let alone the numerous security measure in place in faslane... Where astute is based.!! The weapon used was definitely an SA80. Armed sentries have been around since waaayy before 9/11.
Minsk Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 I am not sure what weapon would have been used or what ammo ? When i served the QM & BM were both armed with a Browning (9MM) and whilst away upperdeck sentry had the SLR Rifle (7.62mm) or SMG (9mm) all would have done serious damage below decks on any vessel let alone a Nuke Sub, I cannot say for deffo but would suggest it may have been the SA80 mod (5.56mm) that was on trail at HMS Cambridge (Gunnery shore base Wembury) late 80`s and has a round modified to injure without damaging bulkheads/deckheads or equiptment. It is very sad news that a life has been lost and my thoughts go out to the family, But this has been long overdue in our superb armed forces with Non Com ratings that have 10+ yrs of expert service being overlooked for promotion just because daddy`s friends Son has a degree in flower arranging and gets a commision on entry. I am not saying this is what went on in this case but the more our real service personnel get put on them/shat upon (from above) the more cuts the more resentful some lower ratings will become and a perhaps a 100 yrs ago this chaps action may have started a mutiny ?? The lad must have been well peed to do what he had done. Thanks, Ex RN (75-91) Gunnery (County Class, Type 21, Type 42 Batch 1&2) I served 79-04; TAS; Type 12, Type 22 (Batch 1 and 3), Type 23, P2000.
View From The Top Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 The weapon used was definitely an SA80. Armed sentries have been around since waaayy before 9/11. I was armed back in the 80s with a 9mm. Upper neck bod, before we were issued SA80s, had 9mm SMGs. Looked like the old WW2 Sten guns.
View From The Top Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 You are, of course, absolutely correct. The vodka last night was affecting my already addled memory. I'm still certain that the shoot out was during a crimbo leave period and on a Pompey based Leander though. I chose the Passive route because the only ship with it at the time (Lowestoft) was Pompey based. Obviously, coming from the better end of the M27, that suited me as I was close to family and could get to the Dell for all home fixtures when were in port. However, once TA was accepted into the fleet all ships with it were then based in Guzz...... Think you're correct but the suicide was deffo a Guzz based ship.
Thedelldays Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 The weapon used was definitely an SA80. Armed sentries have been around since waaayy before 9/11. I can tell you that for many years before 9/11 we had no armed sentries in the uk. If you had them in the 80s etc probably because of PIRA then so be it
Jonnyboy Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 Probably some anti nuclear hippy so basically being on a sub turns you into a cvnt
Window Cleaner Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 Southampton's mayor is such a dangerous job! One died when the flying boat crashed. Another involved in a shoot out in a tin can. Any more incidents in history? One was John Stonehouse's mum...............
thesaint sfc Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 TBF if we had guns at work I'd have shot my colleagues dead a long time ago.
Thedelldays Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 journos from the mirror have been creating Facebook accounts as RN servicemen and trying to get information about who it was involved (before the names were released)..
Thedelldays Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 (edited) That boat seems to be cursed. First it runs aground, now this. Should have been called HMS Albatros. Still, at least it's not full of radiactive material. .... D'oh ! what makes it even more odd...the commanding officer who has not long been in charge was the commanding officer of HMS Tireless in 2007 when two of my mates (one of which was a very close friend) were blown up at sea and killed onboard under the polar ice cap..... http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/feb/12/submariner-tells-of-fight-to-save-crewmates Edited 9 April, 2011 by Thedelldays
Micky Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 I'm answers to your questions above.. All armed sentries in the RN carry the SA80 A2 assault rifle.. A bit OTT for a submarine as so many times when conducting an armed sentry hand over you would snag the weapon and risk cocking it whilst making your way to the upper deck.. The armed sentry would have had a fully loaded magazine on his weapon but not made ready (no rounds in the chamber)... The whole armed sentry thing has been around since 9/11.. IMO, never understand why we have it in the UK.. As anywhere a sub is, home or abroad there is armed guards around it.. Take astute yesterday, armed guard from ships staff (The killer in this case). It would have had an armed reponse unit from the civvy police shore side an the MOD police would have been patrolling the water, also armed. There is even more armed security when in portsmouth or Plymouth dock yards..let alone the numerous security measure in place in faslane... Where astute is based.!! So in effect having an armed guard on board really appears pretty unecessary really. I have worked on many Military bases both at home and operationally, and while there is obviously a need to have armed guards, I cannot recall any instances where the weapon was loaded while inside a base or 'safe' building. Take normal barrack guards for instance - they too patrol with loaded (made safe) weapons, but on completion of their duty they report to an unloading bay, are met by a guard commander who supervises the safe unloading of the weapon, and who takes the loaded magazine from the guard before he enters the guardroom - hence no loaded weapon in a confined space. I have seen accidents occur in such situations, where weapons have been discharged in building (one a 'charlie g'...!) but these were caused by negligence and not observing the correct procedures. Don't get me wrong - if somebody wants to harm somebody else and they have access to weapons and ammunition, then it's likely that they will find a way. I just find it strange that a loaded SA80, basically an infantry weapon with an operational range of 300 metres is deemed necessary inside a nuclear submarine.
Thedelldays Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 (edited) I just find it strange that a loaded SA80, basically an infantry weapon with an operational range of 300 metres is deemed necessary inside a nuclear submarine. this is such and age old argument. there were talks that we would get MP5s..like the MOD police...small, closer range weapons..but an SA80 on a submarine is quite frankly stupid...saying that, it was not the fact it was an SA80 that killed someone.... then again...like I said..why the need to have armed sentries in the UK is beyond me....the amount of security around a nuclear SM is more than enough.. if you ever go to faslane....the security in place there is quite substantial as said before..there would have been a complete exclusion zone around HMS Astute....there would have been unmarked armed officers litterally minutes away and there was an MOD police patrol boat sat off seaward side....also armed...an armed sentry on the casing makes no difference......other than a visual deterent Edited 9 April, 2011 by Thedelldays
doubleonothing Posted 9 April, 2011 Author Posted 9 April, 2011 Would Astute have only had an armed sentry as she was in a non naval port or do they always have the armed sentry in addition to normal base security? Whilst alongside would a MOD Plad boat be continuously sat off her seaward side or was that only when the incident took place? As she was on a commercial berth, would she have more security in place than normal? I think there were 2 P&O ships (Azura and Ventura) in yesterday, with Ventura on Ocean Terminal - both would pass close to Astute as they approached dockhead. I know when I have passed a sub on 38/39 berth they have occaisonally had a larger complement on the open deck to "wave" at the cruise ships as they go pass and let the passengers take pictures of them.
Hamilton Saint Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 Probably some anti nuclear hippy Or some crazed member of HM armed forces? Jumping to knee-jerk conclusions can be problematic, eh?
Minsk Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 I was armed back in the 80s with a 9mm. Upper neck bod, before we were issued SA80s, had 9mm SMGs. Looked like the old WW2 Sten guns. Think you're correct but the suicide was deffo a Guzz based ship. Yep, I was armed with a 9mm as QM on Cornwall in '88/'89. I also remember the GPMGs. I am also sure the suicide was on a Guzz ship.
Minsk Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 Would Astute have only had an armed sentry as she was in a non naval port or do they always have the armed sentry in addition to normal base security? Whilst alongside would a MOD Plad boat be continuously sat off her seaward side or was that only when the incident took place? As she was on a commercial berth, would she have more security in place than normal? I think there were 2 P&O ships (Azura and Ventura) in yesterday, with Ventura on Ocean Terminal - both would pass close to Astute as they approached dockhead. I know when I have passed a sub on 38/39 berth they have occaisonally had a larger complement on the open deck to "wave" at the cruise ships as they go pass and let the passengers take pictures of them. Don't know if things have changed in the past 7 years, but when I was in..... Gangway staff (x2) would be armed at all times; an additional armed sentry would be used when not in a naval port (i.e. Southampton). MOD Plod boat would be around 24/7.
Thedelldays Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 Or some crazed member of HM armed forces? Jumping to knee-jerk conclusions can be problematic, eh? nothing knee jerk about my comment....anything to do with a faslane based SM is nothing but major trouble with the hippies...
Hamilton Saint Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 nothing knee jerk about my comment....anything to do with a faslane based SM is nothing but major trouble with the hippies... "Hippies"? Could you be a bit more precise. Anti-nuclear campaigners? Anti-war activists? Pacifists?
Thedelldays Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 "Hippies"? Could you be a bit more precise. Anti-nuclear campaigners? Anti-war activists? Pacifists? all of them
Hamilton Saint Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 all of them They're all "hippies"? Your world-view seems a tad simplistic.
Thedelldays Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 They're all "hippies"? Your world-view seems a tad simplistic. what ever
Jonnyboy Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 nothing knee jerk about my comment....anything to do with a faslane based SM is nothing but major trouble with the hippies... yeah, thay are always shooting people facepalm
Guan 2.0 Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 Towed arrays Leanders were deffo at Guzz as I spent 4 years on one, HMS Phoebe. It must have been around 88(ish) when the QM shot himself. Sent the sprog BM off to make the brews and then blew the back of his head off. Think it was either a weekend or a main leave period. He was a good oppo of a 3 badge AB(EW) called "Scooby" Doo who was on the Phoebe with me.
doubleonothing Posted 9 April, 2011 Author Posted 9 April, 2011 I seem to recall being told that the anti-nuc brigade managed to get in between the 2 fences at Faslane. The base security in one of their more amusing moments released the attack/guard dogs at one end of the gap between the 2 fences and then sat back and watched the ensuing fun and games as the protesters set about shifting at speed away from the dogs. Don't know if there is any truth in this or not though!
Gingeletiss Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 Rumour has it, that the rating involved, was due to go on leave, having been on board for ever and a day, it appears he had just been told his leave was cancelled. As I said, this is the rumour circulating in the docks.
Micky Posted 9 April, 2011 Posted 9 April, 2011 Rumour has it, that the rating involved, was due to go on leave, having been on board for ever and a day, it appears he had just been told his leave was cancelled. As I said, this is the rumour circulating in the docks. Which is a totally trivial reason to carry out such an act, but Sky has an even more bizarre reason: "At the end of shore-based basic training and then lengthy specialist onboard work submariners are awarded a "dolphins" badge, which helps marks their difference from surface sailors. The MoD refused to comment on claims that the incident took place after a row unfolded over the use of a toilet." http://news.sky.com/skynews/Article/201104115969143 As I said before - totally sad incident for all involved.
Deppo Posted 10 April, 2011 Posted 10 April, 2011 "At the end of shore-based basic training and then lengthy specialist onboard work submariners are awarded a "dolphins" badge, which helps marks their difference from surface sailors. The MoD refused to comment on claims that the incident took place after a row unfolded over the use of a toilet." I like the way that the preamble has nothing to do with the reason then given.
hamster Posted 10 April, 2011 Posted 10 April, 2011 I like the way that the preamble has nothing to do with the reason then given. Pot kettle deepio.
moonraker Posted 10 April, 2011 Posted 10 April, 2011 This is tragic incident for the families and the services and my prayers are with the families and crew of Astute. Most of the early theorising, who did it (hippies ha ha), type of weapon etc were way off the mark. There will be an inquiry which will not be a cover up. The incident under the ice that DD referred to was a SCOG or a Self Contained Oxygen Candle and was subject to a full coroners enquiry and believe me the verdict did not pull any punches. The simple fact is that RN Submarines are manned by members of the Armed Forces all of whom are trained in small arms with additional regular training given to those who are expected to act as armed guards on a regular basis. Boats have had armed trot sentries since the middle of the 80's (way before 9/11), before this trot sentries were only armed in special circumstances. There can be no legislating for an individual who losses it however as with all such incidents lessons will be learnt.
hamster Posted 10 April, 2011 Posted 10 April, 2011 Hope noone is offended by this but I now know why they say that submarines are like used condoms. If you font know the answer I am not telling you, it's in bad taste.
Micky Posted 10 April, 2011 Posted 10 April, 2011 I like the way that the preamble has nothing to do with the reason then given. Ummm noted - poor quote selection by myself. Should of omitted the first sentence, it is not in context.
Deppo Posted 10 April, 2011 Posted 10 April, 2011 Ummm noted - poor quote selection by myself. Should of omitted the first sentence, it is not in context. Don't. I like it the way it is.
gaz Posted 19 September, 2011 Posted 19 September, 2011 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/8773711/Royal-Navy-sailor-Ryan-Donovan-admits-submarine-killing.html
Micky Posted 19 September, 2011 Posted 19 September, 2011 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/8773711/Royal-Navy-sailor-Ryan-Donovan-admits-submarine-killing.html If they had to test him to establish his alcohol level, I would argue that he was not in a fit state to be armed with a loaded SA80. All in all sounds a pretty tragic set of meaniless circumstances that led to a man losing his life - shocking.
Micky Posted 20 September, 2011 Posted 20 September, 2011 25 years. http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16072807
Minsk Posted 20 September, 2011 Posted 20 September, 2011 If they had to test him to establish his alcohol level, I would argue that he was not in a fit state to be armed with a loaded SA80. All in all sounds a pretty tragic set of meaniless circumstances that led to a man losing his life - shocking. When I was serving (retired 7 years ago) you could not drink within 12 hours of handling a weapon. If I was to arm a man and he looked even slightly hungover, let alone still under the influence, there is no way he would have been given a weapon. I find it very hard to believe there was any doubt that he was completely sober, and if there was/is the person responsible for arming him would be severely punished.
Micky Posted 25 September, 2011 Posted 25 September, 2011 When I was serving (retired 7 years ago) you could not drink within 12 hours of handling a weapon. If I was to arm a man and he looked even slightly hungover, let alone still under the influence, there is no way he would have been given a weapon. I find it very hard to believe there was any doubt that he was completely sober, and if there was/is the person responsible for arming him would be severely punished. Agree - he should be punished. But how would you test somebodies sobriety to substantiate that they are fit to be issued a loaded weapon? If there was any doubt whatsoever, don't give it to him - the fact that they thought there was a possibility should have been enought to prevent the issue.
Thedelldays Posted 26 September, 2011 Posted 26 September, 2011 If you think someone is unfit fir dug. Ie has a wisp of booze or you just don't think he isnfit then he does nit do the duty Simple as that really
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