Redundancy

[Denzil]

I've been told today that there will be redundancies in the company I work for.

 

Does anyone know if the 'last in first out' rule is still legal?

 

What other things do companies look at when deciding who should go?

 

Any help much appreciated, thanks.

[Micky]

I don't know that there is such a LIFO rule as such, it is just a sort of unofficial 'loyalty' policy that many companys seem to adopt. Most (big) companies will look to offer voluntary redundancies first and then look to see what other cuts are necessary. Obvioulsy the overriding factor in all of this is money, and therefore they will look to save money in areas where productivity is not (necessarily) affected.

 

So it all depends on what sort of company that you work for and what your job role is really.

 

All of that said, last year, my company made two small departments redundant and basically just 'farmed' the work that they did onto the remaining staff. Naturally, as everybody else was fearful of losing thier jobs, nobody really complained, but it has caused major problems in many areas.

 

Hope you manage to hang on to your job though - good luck.

[Turkish]

I've been told today that there will be redundancies in the company I work for.

 

Does anyone know if the 'last in first out' rule is still legal?

 

What other things do companies look at when deciding who should go?

 

Any help much appreciated, thanks.

 

Scrawny bald People from Romsey are high risk.

[Denzil]

Scrawny bald People from Romsey are high risk.

 

I weigh 14 stone?

[Denzil]

I work in a warehouse and we all do similar jobs.

 

There's 4 people here who are over 60 years old, surely it would make sense to push the old farts out of the door?

 

Myself. Well, I'm young, fit, good at my job and get on well with the boss. What worries me is I was 'last one in' so to speak.

[aintforever]

It's a popularity contest, just kiss the right ass and everything will be OK.

[Saint-scooby]

Look at it as an opportunity if it does happen, it happend to me some time ago. I have a feeling the LIFO died with closed shop and tea breaks.

[Micky]

Depends on how long the OF's have worked for the company though. Generally speaking, the longer they have worked the better redundancy package they would be entitled to, so it may be an attractive proposition to them. However, if they don't want to accept a voluntary package there is little you can do.

 

You should also remember, that although you are younger, if they have worked there for a long period of time, then surely they are good at their jobs also.

 

My son has been made redundant twice, from joinery firms, and a lot of the older guys were kept on. Don't want to sound negative about this for you, but age may not come into it at the end of the day.

[pilsburydoughboy]

Dont forget the company is making the position redundant.

If you fill a multitude of roles at the company then you might be worth more to the company than others.

[hamster]

Join the navy. I've heard that they are clearing out their dead wood.

 

Good luck though and if you end up having to move on I'm sure you'll look back in years to come and say ffft.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

I would hazard a guess the company will 'restructure', ask you all to re-apply for your jobs, and then simply not employ the people they want to get rid of and give you three months minimum salary.

[Minty]

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_money/employment/redundancy_an_introduction/redundancy___procedures_your_employer_must_follow.htm

[egg]

There has never been such a rule.

 

The job becomes redundant, not the person. Employers normally invite employees to reapply for jobs then go from there.

 

Longer serving employees cost more to get rid off. Older employees will scream age discrimination if they do not get to keep their jobs. Age discrimination cases can cost employers a small fortune. Thus it often follows that the last in normally goes first.

 

It

[maddog]

Went through this a few years ago, the company in question just got us to re-apply for a list of roles they released on a big sheet of paper in reception! Problem I had is that I worked in the IT department and there were no IT roles on the list, as i was only there for under 2 years i got the minumum redundancy, its not a nice time for anyone though so feel for you. Its definalty not last in first out as in my experience its the people who can do several roles accross the company that tend to be saved, saying that though people who have been there 15-20 years cost a bomb to get rid off so that doesnt help!

[Doctoroncall]

This happen recently to my company and although the procedure is based on a set of competencies, they can dictate the weighting of each to help decide who to get rid off.

 

If you're upset someone in charge then it's time to look around.

[ericofarabia]

Warn them The Romsey Yoof will be on their case if they sack you

[Viking Warrior]

DENZIL

 

Yes LIFO does exist some unions would prefer this selection proces for redundancy selection however there should be a fair and cosistent approach to redundancy, asking for volunteers etc many companys do use anumber of selection process, Attendance , disciplinary performance etc see the folowing

 

In selecting for the purposes of redundancy, it is essential that a fair and consistent approach is taken. The selection process should be based on retaining the key skills/competence, experience, and knowledge required for the organisation’s current and future needs. Employers are directed to the example matrix detailed in Section 9, which can be used when selecting employees for redundancy. This matrix is based on the following areas: -

 

• Standard of performance

• Skills, competencies and experience

• Disciplinary record – ‘live ‘ issues only

• Attendance record – suggested timescale – past 2 years

 

Employees within the targeted service areas (also known as the “selection pool”) should be individually scored against the agreed criteria. The reference period to be used is the duration of the employee’s employment with the Authority unless otherwise agreed.

 

Each criterion has been weighted by a factor of 1, 2 or 3 to reflect their relative importance to the Council. The weightings are as follows: -

 

• Standard of performance – multiplied by 3

• Skills, competencies and experience - multiplied by 3

• Disciplinary record - multiplied by 2

• Attendance record - multiplied by 2 (N.B. this would exclude consideration of absences arising as a direct result of pregnancy or disability)

 

It will be up to each employer to decide on the criteria and weightings to apply, and how to evidence the scores allocated.

 

Once each area has been scored, a total will be calculated for each employee. Provisional redundancy selection will be based on those with the lowest scores. In practical terms this means that in a section where it is necessary to reduce the number of employees from 20 to 15, the selection matrix would be completed for all 20 employees, with the 5 employees scoring lowest being provisionally selected for redundancy.

 

Evidence to support each scoring assessment made must be gathered from appropriate sources and made available to demonstrate objectivity of the assessment process. Employers may reserve the right to retain employees with particular skills and competencies required to deliver services. This will be done in line with all pertinent equalities legislation and the relevant Council policies.

 

Employees who are provisionally selected for redundancy should be given information on their assessment and the opportunity to discuss this before the employer makes a final decision. Those whose dismissal on grounds of redundancy is subsequently confirmed should be given written notice and advised of their right of appeal.

[thesaint sfc]

I'd f*cking love to be made redundant. It would give me the kick up the ar*e I need to get a new job, and I'd get a few quid for it too.

[Spudders]

It's a popularity contest, just kiss the right ass and everything will be OK.

 

Myself. Well, I'm young, fit, good at my job and get on well with the boss. What worries me is I was 'last one in' so to speak.

 

I'd 'sort of' agree with the popularity contest comment, although I'd see it from a slightly more professional stance. As you say you are good at your job and get on well with the boss. It's not about kissing ass as such, but getting on with the right people is key.

 

I manged people a while back and redundancy is a good way to get rid of the deadwood if it's tackled correctly and professionally, where selected people can be justified based on their 'performance'. If you work hard and have a good working relationship with your boss then why would they get rid of you, they will work the system to ensure you stay and that they get rid of people who are poor performers, difficult to work with, etc.

 

Also you have said you are 'young' and 'fit', so it sounds like there may well be some additional reasons why they may wish to keep you on, such as to be groomed for their peado ring.

[Ken Tone]

I'd f*cking love to be made redundant. It would give me the kick up the ar*e I need to get a new job, and I'd get a few quid for it too.

 

It's tough out there at present. No guarantee you'd get another job. And if your company like most, just pays basic compulsory redundacny pay, it would be a few quid.

[Ken Tone]

I've been told today that there will be redundancies in the company I work for.

 

Does anyone know if the 'last in first out' rule is still legal?

 

What other things do companies look at when deciding who should go?

 

Any help much appreciated, thanks.

 

In such situations there are "good practice" procedures, "legally all right" procedures , and "sod it, so try and take us to an industrial tribunal if you can" procedures. IF your firm follows best practice it will either now consult with employees and unions to agree redundancy criteria, or it will have already done that and have some in place. LIFO is one possible and legally acceptable criterion. Unions tend to like it, so it is more common in highly unionised firms and the public sector. Even there though, it is usually only one of a list of criteria .. a 'tie-buster' if you like if all other things are equal.

 

If you are one of a whole load of people doing identical jobs, with identical skills and qualifications, LIFO is more likely to apply. In most cases jobs vary and the firm will first specify which sub-category of jobs it needs to lose, then look at employees' suitability to do said job , then .... etc, maybe finishing with LIFO.

[derry]

Large airlines have strict pilot seniority lists. Leave, rosters, pay, promotion, allowances etc can be in accordance with seniority, Redundancy operates on a strict LIFO principle as do demotions to compensate for reduction in Captains. Airlines like Easyjet and Ryanair etc as far as I know don't have seniority lists.

[Ken Tone]

Large airlines have strict pilot seniority lists. Leave, rosters, pay, promotion, allowances etc can be in accordance with seniority, Redundancy operates on a strict LIFO principle as do demotions to compensate for reduction in Captains. Airlines like Easyjet and Ryanair etc as far as I know don't have seniority lists.

 

cf my ....."If you are one of a whole load of people doing identical jobs, with identical skills and qualifications, LIFO is more likely to apply" above . Large airlines have lots of pilots, basically all doing same job with same qualifications and difficult to distinguish different skill levels.

 

Mind you, age discrimination laws are making pay increments etc based on long service more dodgy than they were.

[derry]

cf my ....."If you are one of a whole load of people doing identical jobs, with identical skills and qualifications, LIFO is more likely to apply" above . Large airlines have lots of pilots, basically all doing same job with same qualifications and difficult to distinguish different skill levels.

 

Mind you, age discrimination laws are making pay increments etc based on long service more dodgy than they were.

 

Pull the ladder up, I retired top of the pay scales. Seriously though it's viewed as a reward for service. Companies were keen for the higher paid to retire and be replaced by a new entrant on the scales. The age laws have now allowed pilots to continue until 65.

[mcjwills]

Denzil, the chances are one of 2 thing will probably happen, if you have a company pension scheme, the older members of your department may be offered early retirement or they will ask for voluntary redundancies. If that is not the case, and they go for LIFO, you will get through it, I have been made redundant 3 times with jobs moving abroad etc.. and I have always managed to get some form of work, pay may not be as high but that is not always the main driver in employment.

[thesaint sfc]

It's tough out there at present. No guarantee you'd get another job. And if your company like most, just pays basic compulsory redundacny pay, it would be a few quid.

 

I could always sell my bum. It would probably be better than how I feel about my job at the moment.

[dune]

Firstly it'll depend on what roles they consider can be made redundant. It's the job being made reduntant which results in the person being given redundancy payments. If you all have the same job description and they intend to drop the numbers then it'd probably be you out of the door. If you're trained in other areas it'd be your best hope i'd imagine.

[Jimmy Gabriel's Halo]

I am 57 and a half and I have never been made redundant.

 

I do not know why.

[Baj]

I am 57 and a half and I have never been made redundant.

 

I do not know why.

 

Cos you've never had a job?

[Trader]

I have been made redundant twice, each time I pocketed the money and got a better job really quickly each time.

 

I hope if the worst happens you have a similar outcome - just think positive.

 

HTH

[Jimmy Gabriel's Halo]

Cos you've never had a job?

 

That did actually make me laugh Baj. But I have been fully employed since leaving school/college/Polytechnic etc which includes all holiday periods. I suppose I started work at 12 or 13 with various paper rounds etc and have never ever had a period of unemployment or redundancy. Of course, being a High Court judge probably helps.

I suppose I've been lucky compared to some.

 

Or unlucky, depending on your point of view.

[Deppo]

Cos you've never had a job?

 

I got banned for "sarcastic comments".

[norwaysaint]

I got banned for "sarcastic comments".

 

Yeah, but Baj only posts stuff like that on the Muppet Show, You did it on serious parts of the forum.

[Denzil]

Many thanks for all your replies, much appreciated.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think 'job position' really comes into it, as we all have the same sort of job in our stores, it's just some have more skills than others.

 

None of the old boys want to go so I'm hoping it'll be some of the boys that the boss doesn't really like ( there are a few ).

[benjii]

Yeah, but Baj only posts stuff like that on the Muppet Show, You did it on serious parts of the forum.

 

Where are these hallowed e-turfs?

[badgerx16]

Fingers crossed for everybody else in this situation - I find out if I have survived this afternoon.

Edited 1 April, 2011 by badgerx16

[hamster]

Hope you get the news that you want, if not my friend try not to be despondent.

[latter day saint]

fingers crossed for the lads going through it at the moment, hope it all works out ok.

i was made redundant from my last job after working there for 10 years,totally out of the blue & just a month after my gf had got pregnant. thought i was fairly safe due to years worked & my ability to work in every other department. knocked me for 6 for a while but i got another job & have been in employment since.

[badgerx16]

:):)

 

Good luck to everybody else.

[Crispypie]

congrats badger, i got another 2 weeks to wait. I know the consultation period is to help make things fair but i'd much rather get on with my life however it turns out!

[Johnny Bognor]

DENZIL

 

Yes LIFO does exist some unions would prefer this selection proces for redundancy selection however there should be a fair and cosistent approach to redundancy, asking for volunteers etc many companys do use anumber of selection process,

 

This. The process has to be deemed fair, consistent and reasonable. If not, there is room for legal recourse and if found to be unfair, the employer could have an unfair dismissal charge to answer. LIFO is universally recognised as being fair. It also reduces redundancy payments as the longer the service of those being made redundant, the higher the cost of redundancy.

 

I manged people a while back and redundancy is a good way to get rid of the deadwood if it's tackled correctly and professionally, where selected people can be justified based on their 'performance'. If you work hard and have a good working relationship with your boss then why would they get rid of you, they will work the system to ensure you stay and that they get rid of people who are poor performers, difficult to work with, etc.

 

This is true, especially in smaller businesses. Why would you want to get rid of your best staff? If you're in trouble, these are the very people you want/need to keep. Therefore many small businesses will work the system to this effect. This in itself can be deemed unfair, as the selection process has been skewed. At the same time, it is totally understandable.

[CB Saint]

I would be surprised if LIFO is still legal. LIFO could be constituted as indirect age discrimination against young people. These days employers are advised against linking benefits to length of service over five years for this reason.

 

With regards to the selection process, When I was looking into this a couple of years ago, I was staggered to find out that the employer can set there own selection criteria and provide different weighting to each. So with a bit a clever planning an employer can fix the process so that the individuals the employer would like to lose are automatically selected for redundancy. This does seem to make a mockery of the whole process.

 

Good luck to all you out who going through it.