Operation School Run

[hypochondriac]

Thanks for your reasoned comments Saint Bletch. I don't think I've really given out too much personal information about my family.

 

My grandchildren, of course, are able to share their nursery (and grandmother) experiences with their parents every day when they get home, or when their parents get home. And you're right - academic achievement, even at such a young age, is nothing if the child isn't stable, secure and happy. From what I've seen (and remember, I see them a lot) they seem very secure and happy to me.

 

I should add that one son-in-law is a primary school teacher. Unfortunately, and contrary to popular opinion, this means he also doesn't usually get home until 6.30pm but it DOES mean that he's around for some part of the school holidays - more than most fathers, I reckon. The crazy thing is, they still have to pay for the nursery place even though the child isn't there when teacher dad's at home.

 

That isn't crazy. If they didn't pay then the nursery would be losing money because there could be another child in their place full time who does attend nursery when he is home on the holidays.

[bridge too far]

That isn't crazy. If they didn't pay then the nursery would be losing money because there could be another child in their place full time who does attend nursery when he is home on the holidays.

 

No - I know it isn't really crazy - it's just business and I understand that. They are actually in the process of negotiating a 'holding' fee for the summer holiday, a sort of retainer. It usually costs them £60 per day but included in that cost are meals that wouldn't have to be provided if they're not there to eat them. I think other school teacher parents have negotiated a retainer in the past so there's a precedent.

[hypochondriac]

 

So assuming I'm commenting generically about modern parenting and not specifically about your daughters' situations, the one thing you didn't comment on in your defence above is the quality of the mother-child relationship for kids that don't see their mothers for 4 days a week. And we're not really able to gauge that until adulthood and then it's too late to go back and fix it.

 

Not sure if you were aware, but I own nurseries so have quite a bit of experience in this matter. In my opinion (with many studies to back it up), it is beneficial for a child to attend nursery at least twice a week. On a personal level, I think that four times a week can be excessive but then I suppose it is about how the child is brought up the rest of the time and how they make use of their time. There is one particular family who are fantastic with their child. They treat him like an adult a lot of the time, he is extremely intelligent and they gave him his own small car in the driveway like his parents have. Unfortunately, they are both doctors and so he goes to nursery four times a week. I don't think it has impacted him terribly since they make the most of all the time they have together. I don't know enough about their personal circumstances to comment on whether this is the right thing to do, however I can see that that child is a lot more well rounded, articulate and emotionally mature in comparison to many of his peers.

 

Each time a child in a nursery experiences new things; each time they experience joy, concern or fear; each time they hurt themselves and each time they look around for assurance from the one person that should always be there for them; what happens when they see a stranger?

 

Even a kind and professional stranger that has been paid to become moderately familiar to the child?

 

I think that is maybe a tad cold. Maybe some employees do see their job in that way but in my experience, nursery staff at good nurseries see it as much more than just a job to care for children. Staff often strike up friendships with parents outside of working hours, babysitting for children on occasion and really become a child's friend. You only have to see the last day at nursery and see staff reactions to realise that it is so much more than becoming moderately familiar and the children certainly see them as more than a stranger. Nursery experiences can shape your lives and are incredibly important.

 

I guess that over time others assume that role for the child and they learn to live without that closeness, they learn that it's OK to not always be there. They compensate and become hardier, more self-sufficient. Traits we commend in adults. Not traits that IMO we should wish to see in the very young.

 

I don't think that happens, certainly not in my experience. I'm not sure you would find evidence for that either. It is possible that a child seeks reassurance and love from a number of angles including from parents and nursery staff. Equally, you only have to look at some Indian parents to see the effects of children not being independent enough. Many come to a nursery at three years old having never left their mother's side. They spend an entire day stood by the gate screaming. A mix of both is a good way to go.

 

I couldn't agree more that modern life puts pressures on parents such that they can't easily stay at home and raise their children themselves. But to not acknowledge the potentially negative effect of choosing to have children and choosing to continue to work, is not being true to the argument.

 

There is a potentially negative effect if it is excessive I agree. I do think individual circumstances should be assessed though. For some children, leaving them at nursery three or four times a week has no negative effect that I can see. Seriously.

 

What would be better? A child that can recite the alphabet at a young age and live in a house that isn't rented or an unbreakable bond forged by receiving unconditional love and attention over the first 5-6 years of life in poorer rented accomodation? I recognise that for some parents this isn't mutually exclusive, but the evidence I've seen suggests that there is a real choice with real consequences.

 

Believe me, those within nursery are as frustrated as anyone else by the insistence to learn so early. European nurseries put the emphasis on play whereas the UK has to teach something educational all the time. Wherever possible, the staff will take an opportunity to muck around with the children and have fun. It isn't all about learning the alphabet at all.

 

I also acknowledge that the idea of staying home and immersing themselves in raising a family is some women's (and men's) idea of hell and therefore it suits them to devolve that responsibility to others. But let's not pretend that that aren't consequences of such a decision.

 

But nursery does give a number of skills which it would be much more difficult to get from home. It isn't just about passing responsibility to others.

 

I'm not sitting in judgement here. If parents are able to make their situation work for them and have no regrets then more power to them. But as a society we have to recognise that our future citizens and the society they will shape are both forged in the early life of our youngsters and the values we try to ensure they have.

 

I agree.

[hypochondriac]

No - I know it isn't really crazy - it's just business and I understand that. They are actually in the process of negotiating a 'holding' fee for the summer holiday, a sort of retainer. It usually costs them £60 per day but included in that cost are meals that wouldn't have to be provided if they're not there to eat them. I think other school teacher parents have negotiated a retainer in the past so there's a precedent.

 

That seems fair and reasonable to me. Nursery owners are an affable and reasonable breed.

[bridge too far]

That seems fair and reasonable to me. Nursery owners are an affable and reasonable breed.

 

I didn't realise you owned nursery schools! It's so good to have your input into this whole debate. I have to say, with regard to the learning, that my grandchildren have learned their letters and numbers at home, not at nursery that I know of. Simple things like counting the stairs, knowing which letter starts their name. Is it part of your target (or whatever they're called at nursery) to teach this too?

 

Maybe we're just all early learners in my family (peaking at 5 ) because I could read and recite my 12 times table before I was 5 and my children were all early readers too. But we're all crap at arty stuff and practical stuff.

[trousers]

It is a fact that sending your children to nursery AND spending time at home with them is the best way to bring up a child in general

 

I agree that that is probablyh the ideal scenario but, from experience (both personal and from friends/family), if the kids come from a "stable background" then, in general, it doesn't really matter.

 

I've seen kids of family/friends grow up from those who spent the first 5 years without nursery and those who spent most of the week at nurseries and they have all grown up to be "normal".

 

Bottom line: there is no right or wrong way here.

 

IMHO of course.

 

edit: fwiw, Mrs Trousers did go back to work after having our two but gave up work after countless times of being told by nursery staff that she had missed out on their "first this, first that". She wanted to be there to witness these special moments.

Edited 6 April, 2011 by trousers

[suewhistle]

Is it part of your target (or whatever they're called at nursery) to teach this too?

 

Aaargh: educational targets and bureaucracy! I recall individual learning plans for adult ESOL learners where in theory you had to discuss their specific language aims with them and then document them, then say how you'd meet them, then ..... When they didn't speak any (or little) English.

 

Yep, I learnt to read before school and downhill from then on! Couldn't tie my laces until about 9 though!

[hypochondriac]

I didn't realise you owned nursery schools! It's so good to have your input into this whole debate. I have to say, with regard to the learning, that my grandchildren have learned their letters and numbers at home, not at nursery that I know of. Simple things like counting the stairs, knowing which letter starts their name. Is it part of your target (or whatever they're called at nursery) to teach this too?

 

Maybe we're just all early learners in my family (peaking at 5 ) because I could read and recite my 12 times table before I was 5 and my children were all early readers too. But we're all crap at arty stuff and practical stuff.

 

I think learning is important, especially things like numbers and letters which can really help with language and number skills later on. It's something we do of course and education is important but personally, I think it is of secondary importance to the love and care they receive and to the social skills of being with children from all different backgrounds. In Europe generally the emphasis is more on play and the social side and I think it is a much more healthy way to be. I am actually a very different person to the one who posts on here for a laugh lol.

[bridge too far]

I think learning is important, especially things like numbers and letters which can really help with language and number skills later on. It's something we do of course and education is important but personally, I think it is of secondary importance to the love and care they receive and to the social skills of being with children from all different backgrounds. In Europe generally the emphasis is more on play and the social side and I think it is a much more healthy way to be. I am actually a very different person to the one who posts on here for a laugh lol.

 

I think that's a better way to go, too. I think, in many European countries, children don't actually start formal learning until they're 6 or 7?

[hypochondriac]

I agree that that is probablyh the ideal scenario but, from experience (both personal and from friends/family), if the kids come from a "stable background" then, in general, it doesn't really matter.

 

I've seen kids of family/friends grow up from those who spent the first 5 years without nursery and those who spent most of the week at nurseries and they have all grown up to be "normal".

 

Bottom line: there is no right or wrong way here.

 

IMHO of course.

 

edit: fwiw, Mrs Trousers did go back to work after having our two but gave up work after countless times of being told by nursery staff that she had missed out on their "first this, first that". She wanted to be there to witness these special moments.

 

I agree, I just didn't want the debate to be about nursery being bad. It's really useful for a number of reasons which I won't go into because it will bore people.

[suewhistle]

I think that's a better way to go, too. I think, in many European countries, children don't actually start formal learning until they're 6 or 7?

 

True. I teach 4th Elementare and they're 9. Mind you, they have one more class of primary school and then go to Scuola Media where it changes abruptly and they sink or swim. They tend to catch up quickly on the reading, but Italian is an easy language to learn.

[hypochondriac]

I think that's a better way to go, too. I think, in many European countries, children don't actually start formal learning until they're 6 or 7?

 

Yep. Sadly no chance of that happening over here. We need our 'league tables' as quickly as possible. Grrr.

[trousers]

I agree, I just didn't want the debate to be about nursery being bad. It's really useful for a number of reasons which I won't go into because it will bore people.

 

Yep, agree it's "useful" and understand the reasoning behind why it is. It's just not "essential" (from observation rather than opinion)

[tpbury]

Hypo - you rack 10,000 posts and are champion at all the arcade games, and you own nurseries. Clearly, you know what you are talking about and seem compassionate, but do you actually manage these places - I can't see how you get the time!!

[Wade Garrett]

Nursery schools are good for young kids development, although for a lot of career parents it's just a glorified babysitting service.

[holepuncture]

is everyone enjoying the half term roads?

 

****ing fantastic, made a 50minute saving - EACH WAY - everyday this week.

 

Even got a couple of open miles on the country roads, which never happens when 1000's of 4x4's with one kid each are jamming up the economic producers of this country.

 

bloody lazy arse mothers with there nation of ever obese children, strapped into the 5.0L Diesel with a sugary drink and a nintendo DS - I LOSE 16.5 DAYS each year in school run traffic, more than a two week ****ing vacation!

 

I hope all these slummy mummies understand the kind of SACRAFICES working people have to make so that they can slug around in chelsea tractors, spending the day playing in the park or going shopping. Its not just bucket loads of tax we earn to support you, its everyday of our lives!

[EastleighSoulBoy]

is everyone enjoying the half term roads?

 

****ing fantastic, made a 50minute saving - EACH WAY - everyday this week.

 

Even got a couple of open miles on the country roads, which never happens when 1000's of 4x4's with one kid each are jamming up the economic producers of this country.

 

bloody lazy arse mothers with there nation of ever obese children, strapped into the 5.0L Diesel with a sugary drink and a nintendo DS - I LOSE 16.5 DAYS each year in school run traffic, more than a two week ****ing vacation!

 

I hope all these slummy mummies understand the kind of SACRAFICES working people have to make so that they can slug around in chelsea tractors, spending the day playing in the park or going shopping. Its not just bucket loads of tax we earn to support you, its everyday of our lives!

 

THIS.

[bridge too far]

It's the flabby daddies that are more to blame IMO

[Ewell]

The problem is that parents are allowed to choose where they send their brats.

 

Under the old system only the village and designated villages used the school. Those in the village walked, those in designated villages caught the bus. Now that it's a free for all they all have to drive. It's ridiculous.

 

Spot on, blame labour, there school league tables and the like for the chaos that has ensued since! Go to your local school, the rest of Europe does it so why can’t we. Finland is the example to follow!

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8601207.stm