hypochondriac Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 (edited) Hypo - my point was that, in general, people will suffer a government for a number of years but, when things start to go a bit pear-shaped, they'll vote against that government, thinking it will miraculously turn things round. I agree. I also think that this is a good way to go. I wouldn't want the Tories permanently in power and the same with Labour. Change every decade or so keeps both party on their toes and stops them getting too comfortable. This clearly happened with Labour and if the election defeat makes them rethink some things and strive to be better when they are next in power then I am very please. In my experience, from years of door-stepping for the Labour Party, I've found that most people don't bother to read manifestos. They are either entrenched party loyalists (of whatever party) or they change their vote between parties. It happened to the Tories in 97 and it happened to Labour last year. I agree with this but I also think that there were other reasons that people did not vote Labour. I stopped reading manifestos after '97 when I realised that 99% written in them from all parties is complete and utter rubbish and in many cases lies. I now tend to look at key policies and see which I find least objectionable on balance. But it's now that some people are beginning to realise just how deep these cuts are going to be and it's hurting them and they don't like it. But the exact same thing would have happened whichever party is in power. I love when people are interviewed about these sort of things and they express their shock and surprise, as if they haven't been warned about cuts for the last three years, as if they had no idea of the hole we are in. The media have been banging on about it every day for the last three years. I am sick and tired of hearing about it so how does it not penetrate the consciousness of the man in the street? Talking about war-time spirit (something even I'm too young to have experienced ) is irrelevant. That was then and we had a common enemy. This is now. The concept of sacrifice for the common good is exactly the same. As usual, the Great British public resolutely refuse to see the bigger picture and only ever look at things in terms of how it effects their shopping trip or their visit to the library. Things might be a bit tougher for me but I count my blessings every day that I was born in a great country like England in these enlightened times and not some African hell hole in the a*se end of nowhere. People moan that the Tories only think about themselves and then in the same breath stamp their feet and cry because they have to sacrifice something so that the country can dig its way out of recession. IMO these people are the worst kind of hypocrites. The main point you are discussing is the type and nature of these cuts. Well I am no financial expert and don't claim to be but I am taking a long term wait and see approach before judging the success of these cuts and not a knee jerk 'lets protest' one. I would have said exactly the same thing had Labour won and used their approach. I'm not going to be swayed by what the media tells me to think. BTW thank you for a polite and reasoned debate. That is quite alright. The difference between this debate and the normal political discussion you have though is that it seems you are just outlining your concerns rather than taking pot shots at something ridiculous like Cameron's hairline or digging out some awful anti- Tory article and so you deserve a sensible reply. When the next election comes around, I shall look at the key policies of both parties (not Lib Dem they are a joke party.) and decide who to vote for myself and it could very well be Labour (pretty sure it won't be but I have voted for them before.) Edited 28 March, 2011 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 28 March, 2011 Author Share Posted 28 March, 2011 For every £5 cut proposed by the ConDems, Labour proposed to cut £4. Why didn't Miliband mention this at the "no cuts" rally? And not forgetting the fact that the ConDem cuts only take public expenditure back to 2008/09 levels. That is all. "Massive" cuts? Hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 28 March, 2011 Author Share Posted 28 March, 2011 Good post, and the point about degrees does my head in every time I hear about tuition fees crippling the graduates. Blair had a "vision" I think he called it of at least half of all school leavers going on to get a degree. Didnt seem to occur to him that would effectively devalue the whole point of having one, or that it would mean a whole lot less school leavers going into the service industries, hence the ubiquitous "Polish plumbers" shipping in to supply that demand. If a potential graduate doesnt think his/her degree is going to be worth the money they are paying for it, which will in any case be written off at age 51, you have to wonder whether they are really suited to what is supposed to be an education aimed at the most intelligent and capable of our offspring. If they dont feel that its worth it, dont do it and get a job instead. Indeed. But please open such posts in future with : "SaintsWeb Forum Logic Alert". Some of us need to be sitting down before encountering such common sense on here... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 (edited) Good post, and the point about degrees does my head in every time I hear about tuition fees crippling the graduates. Blair had a "vision" I think he called it of at least half of all school leavers going on to get a degree. Didnt seem to occur to him that would effectively devalue the whole point of having one, or that it would mean a whole lot less school leavers going into the service industries, hence the ubiquitous "Polish plumbers" shipping in to supply that demand. If a potential graduate doesnt think his/her degree is going to be worth the money they are paying for it, which will in any case be written off at age 51, you have to wonder whether they are really suited to what is supposed to be an education aimed at the most intelligent and capable of our offspring. If they dont feel that its worth it, dont do it and get a job instead. The degree system and the sense of entitlement that todays young people have p*sses me off. I went to university because everyone else did and it seemed like the thing to do but did I really NEED to go? No not at all. Now doctors, lawyers people like that are the ones who NEED university, they should be the ones who go for free. University should be for the brightest and best, not to be used as an excuse to go and get p*ssed up for three years and do some noddy course like surfboard science. The system should be that places are restricted with only the very best qualifying for a course. Noddy courses should cost a lot and if you want to do it then you should pay to do it whilst those courses most valuable for the country should be free with people encouraged into these professions. I went because I was bright enough but also just because I could but under the system I proposed, people like me wouldn't go to university. It should the minority who go on to higher education not for everyone who fancies it. I strongly believe that. Edited 28 March, 2011 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 That is quite alright. The difference between this debate and the normal political discussion you have though is that it seems you are just outlining your concerns rather than taking pot shots at something ridiculous like Cameron's hairline or digging out some awful anti- Tory article and so you deserve a sensible reply. When the next election comes around, I shall look at the key policies of both parties (not Lib Dem they are a joke party.) and decide who to vote for myself and it could very well be Labour (pretty sure it won't be but I have voted for them before.) This is a tongue-in-cheek response to idiots like Dunce who bang on about EM's lisp (although he doesn't have a lisp but then Dunce never lets truth get in the way of reasoned discussion, does he). EM's speech impediment is no barrier to intelligent thought any more than DC's hairline, of course it isn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 This is a tongue-in-cheek response to idiots like Dunce who bang on about EM's lisp (although he doesn't have a lisp but then Dunce never lets truth get in the way of reasoned discussion, does he). EM's speech impediment is no barrier to intelligent thought any more than DC's hairline, of course it isn't A lisp though is a potential barrier to success at elections, I would argue far more than a receding hairline (it shouldn't be but the British public are shallow). Do you have anything else to say with regards to the rest of my points written in bold under yours? Only if you have the time of course (wow even I am surprising myself by how sedate I am this evening.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 (edited) This is a tongue-in-cheek response to idiots like Dunce who bang on about EM's lisp (although he doesn't have a lisp but then Dunce never lets truth get in the way of reasoned discussion, does he). EM's speech impediment is no barrier to intelligent thought any more than DC's hairline, of course it isn't He does have a lisp and he comes accross as a nerd aswell. That is a big factor in why he's the most unpopular of the leaders. Edited 28 March, 2011 by dune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 A lisp though is a potential barrier to success at elections, I would argue far more than a receding hairline (it shouldn't be but the British public are shallow). Do you have anything else to say with regards to the rest of my points written in bold under yours? Only if you have the time of course (wow even I am surprising myself by how sedate I am this evening.) Oh don't sink to Dunce's level! EM doesn't have a lisp. He has an adenoidal problem. I'm so surprised at how sedate you are that I'm going to have to go out for a walk to clear my head! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 Oh don't sink to Dunce's level! EM doesn't have a lisp. He has an adenoidal problem. I'm so surprised at how sedate you are that I'm going to have to go out for a walk to clear my head! You get what I am saying though. Any sort of speech impediment will affect how he says things and impact negatively on many voters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 Oh don't sink to Dunce's level! EM doesn't have a lisp. He has an adenoidal problem. I'm so surprised at how sedate you are that I'm going to have to go out for a walk to clear my head! Mods can we have a poll on this please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 Mods can we have a poll on this please. About whether you understand the meaning of a word? I think that debate is already settled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 Count the lisps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbattigger Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 This is just it. Unless you're a slob on benefits, an immigrant, or in a public sector non job the Labour party are against you. Off topic but what the hell. My daughter is on benefits, she has a disease that is slowly killing her. What gives you the right to label her a 'slob on benefits'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 Count the lisps. I can only see smug tw*ts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 Count the lisps. Most people go to their dictionaries for a definition. You go to YouTube. Sad, don't you think? BTF is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 Off topic but what the hell. My daughter is on benefits, she has a disease that is slowly killing her. What gives you the right to label her a 'slob on benefits'? In fairness to dune, he didn't describe all people on benefits as slobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 I can only see smug tw*ts It's easy to be smug when your up against such a rubbish leader of the opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 Off topic but what the hell. My daughter is on benefits, she has a disease that is slowly killing her. What gives you the right to label her a 'slob on benefits'? I'm not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 lets be honest, ed is never going to be PM...come 2015, we would be on the up as a nation and the tories (including osbourne) will win the next vote out right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 28 March, 2011 Author Share Posted 28 March, 2011 Off topic but what the hell. My daughter is on benefits, she has a disease that is slowly killing her. What gives you the right to label her a 'slob on benefits'? To be fair to Dune, he's always quite clear about which sub-set of benefit claimants he's referring to. Your daughter has a genuine right to state support so isn't in one of those subsets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 28 March, 2011 Author Share Posted 28 March, 2011 Back to my OP question...has Miliband shot himself in the foot by aligning himself with a movement that are against most/all cuts when he's leading a party that supports/supported 4/5ths of the ConDem cuts? Genuine question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 Back to my OP question...has Miliband shot himself in the foot by aligning himself with a movement that are against most/all cuts when he's leading a party that supports/supported 4/5ths of the ConDem cuts? Genuine question. By aligning himself with popular sentiment among voters, has he shot himself in the foot? Is that your question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 28 March, 2011 Author Share Posted 28 March, 2011 By aligning himself with popular sentiment among voters, has he shot himself in the foot? Is that your question? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 I think he has done the opposite, the economy seems set for a double dip thanks to the Tories cuts, the US are not cutting as much and their growth is better. Wether Labour would have actually cut as much or not is irrelevant, I expect them to benefit by jumping on the bandwagon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 I think he has done the opposite, the economy seems set for a double dip thanks to the Tories cuts, the US are not cutting as much and their growth is better. Wether Labour would have actually cut as much or not is irrelevant, I expect them to benefit by jumping on the bandwagon. but the US are going to cut further....very soon..obama is facing a very tough time...their debt is fing huge and still needs to be tackled..and now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 but the US are going to cut further....very soon..obama is facing a very tough time...their debt is fing huge and still needs to be tackled..and now What people say and do in US politics are entirely different. It's called separation of powers...or pork-barrel politics, if you're a cynic/realist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 28 March, 2011 Author Share Posted 28 March, 2011 I think he has done the opposite, the economy seems set for a double dip thanks to the Tories cuts, the US are not cutting as much and their growth is better. Wether Labour would have actually cut as much or not is irrelevant, I expect them to benefit by jumping on the bandwagon. a.k.a. relying on the short-term selective memories of fickle voters...which, of course, all politicians from all parties rely on at the end of the day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMikey Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 Count the lisps. If Cameron had a speech impediment, would you take the p*ss out of him? EM can't really help how he speaks, and that's not what he should be judged on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 If Cameron had a speech impediment, would you take the p*ss out of him? EM can't really help how he speaks, and that's not what he should be judged on. also, where they come from and where they were brought up.....right..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMikey Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 also, where they come from and where they were brought up.....right..? What do you mean by that exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 What do you mean by that exactly? the jibes at the "toffs" and the like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 but the US are going to cut further....very soon..obama is facing a very tough time...their debt is fing huge and still needs to be tackled..and now I don't pretend to be an expert in economics but the US might have a bigger debt but with a growing economy they can start paying it back. It looks like the Tories have kicked our recovery right in the b@ll@cks, if/when we go back into recession we won't be able to pay didly squat off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 I don't pretend to be an expert in economics but the US might have a bigger debt but with a growing economy they can start paying it back. It looks like the Tories have kicked our recovery right in the b@ll@cks, if/when we go back into recession we won't be able to pay didly squat off. you dont pretend to be an expert on us economics,,,but an expert on UK economics....ok then... we shall see in around 2 years I guess....to judge who ever every month at the mo is silly.......I think summer/xmas 2013 would be enough to see if what (who ever) they did has been a success or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMikey Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 the jibes at the "toffs" and the like I don't have a problem with people from affluent areas - according to government statistics my home constituency of Hart is among some of the least deprived places in England by a number of measures. It's the character of the "toff" politician that I have a problem with. Pomposity and arrogance are two things that I really can't stand, and unfortunately it seems to be present in a lot of people who go through education systems like our politicians do. It's a stereotype, but one that's undoubtedly present in society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 And not forgetting the fact that the ConDem cuts only take public expenditure back to 2008/09 levels. That is all. "Massive" cuts? Hmmm... Explain the councils with 28%+ cuts in 2011/2012 as compared to 2010/2011, ( due to the 'front loading' of the 7% compounded year on year for due for the next 4 years ), and 19% average cuts across central government from April 1st. Hardly small beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 If Cameron had a speech impediment, would you take the p*ss out of him? EM can't really help how he speaks, and that's not what he should be judged on. Of course but regardless, many in the country will judge him on his lisp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 28 March, 2011 Author Share Posted 28 March, 2011 (edited) you dont pretend to be an expert on us economics,,,but an expert on UK economics....ok then... we shall see in around 2 years I guess....to judge who ever every month at the mo is silly.......I think summer/xmas 2013 would be enough to see if what (who ever) they did has been a success or not There's gonna be a hell of a lot of people with egg on their faces if Labour are/were right (to propose a 'meagre' 4/5ths of the ConDem cuts....) Edited 28 March, 2011 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 28 March, 2011 Author Share Posted 28 March, 2011 Explain the councils with 28%+ cuts in 2011/2012 as compared to 2010/2011, ( due to the 'front loading' of the 7% compounded year on year for due for the next 4 years ), and 19% average cuts across central government from April 1st. Hardly small beer. Maybe Labour bloated the public sector in their remaining few years of Government and as such a 'relatively small' reversion of 3 years by way of 'cuts' equates to an artificially inflated number of jobs? The honest answer though is that I don't know. I'm just quoting what I hear. Could be that I'm hearing complete tosh of course. That said, the private sector industry I work in has seen 'revertion' cuts far in excess of three years in recent times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMikey Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 Have the Tories actually tried to explain any of their policies without the use of pretty pictures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 28 March, 2011 Author Share Posted 28 March, 2011 Have the Tories actually tried to explain any of their policies without the use of pretty pictures? No, but have you see the calibre of the people they are trying to educate....? ;-) Said Trousers, tongue-in-cheekily.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 Pretty picture says it so it must be true, can't argue with a pretty picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMikey Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 No, but have you see the calibre of the people they are trying to educate....? ;-) Said Trousers, tongue-in-cheekily.... It's true, people are f*cking morons. But explaining everything with flow charts just makes me sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 No he hasn't shot himself in the foot. Most of the people on that march yesterday were not arguing for no cuts, just a slower pace and less of them. They also would have been there if it was a labour government as many speakers in Hyde Park pointed out. Good on Ed Miliband for turning up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 The honest answer though is that I don't know. I'm just quoting what I hear. Could be that I'm hearing complete tosh of course. An open and honest admission on SWF, whatever next ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 28 March, 2011 Author Share Posted 28 March, 2011 An open and honest admission on SWF, whatever next ! ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 28 March, 2011 Author Share Posted 28 March, 2011 No he hasn't shot himself in the foot. Most of the people on that march yesterday were not arguing for no cuts, just a slower pace and less of them. They also would have been there if it was a labour government as many speakers in Hyde Park pointed out. Good on Ed Miliband for turning up Which makes a sad old sceptic like me wonder why the left wing press didn't seem to make a big splash of his appearance. It got a few mentions in passing when I had a quick butcher's at the Guardian and Mirror earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 I somehow can't see you saying 'butchers' in real life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 28 March, 2011 Author Share Posted 28 March, 2011 Most of the people on that march yesterday were not arguing for no cuts, just a slower pace and less of them Sorry to Labour the point (pun intended), but what numbers are we talking about here? How many job losses were the people on the march advocating? (rough numbers will suffice - say, to the nearest 10,000). I don't remember seeing any speeches where specific numbers were read out... cheers.... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuengirola Saint Posted 28 March, 2011 Share Posted 28 March, 2011 I did search for alternative reports and views on Miliband's appearance at a "no cuts" rally but the left wing media seem very reluctant to highlight his speech for some unfathomable reason.... FFS ;-) Left wing media? Could you please tell me where it is please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 28 March, 2011 Author Share Posted 28 March, 2011 I somehow can't see you saying 'butchers' in real life. I'll leave you to believe that to be true so I don't have to point out yet another inaccuracy on here (me ol' mucker).... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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