Britain moves a step closer to a corporate dictatorship

[buctootim]

No I don't get that. Please explain how the 500 people make up that £277,489.60 using VAT, NI (I included NI in my net numbers using the governments own tax calculator) and pension tax relief?

 

Simply that people on 'normal' incomes typically pay relatively little into pension schemes and the money they do contribute gets tax relief at only 23%. High earners typically pay a lot more into pensions and those contributions attract 40% tax relief. Also 'normal' earners pay NI on nearly all their income, but the upper threshold is c£44,000pa - ie earnings above this are NI exempt. Add in high earners tax breaks ('essential' business clothes, home office, off shored earnings etc) and the difference in tax take isnt very great.

[solentstars]

But it's a mathematical impossibility, or don't you get that?

500 people earning £20k a year pay get £15,724.20 in net earnings. x500 = £786,210

1 person earning £1m nets £508,720.40

That means the 1 person earning not only phyiscally cannot buy the same amount in goods and services, but he/ she also pays £277,489.60 extra to the tax man.

 

no but its good for jobs and shops companys and production when more people can spend more on their products than one person who just hoards more cash than they will ever need.

[solentstars]

Simply that people on 'normal' incomes typically pay relatively little into pension schemes and the money they do contribute gets tax relief at only 23%. High earners typically pay a lot more into pensions and those contributions attract 40% tax relief. Also 'normal' earners pay NI on nearly all their income, but the upper threshold is c£44,000pa - ie earnings above this are NI exempt. Add in high earners tax breaks ('essential' business clothes, home office, off shored earnings etc) and the difference in tax take isnt very great.

 

good post

[JackanorySFC]

Simply that people on 'normal' incomes typically pay relatively little into pension schemes and the money they do contribute gets tax relief at only 23%. High earners typically pay a lot more into pensions and those contributions attract 40% tax relief. Also 'normal' earners pay NI on nearly all their income, but the upper threshold is c£44,000pa - ie earnings above this are NI exempt. Add in high earners tax breaks ('essential' business clothes, home office, off shored earnings etc) and the difference in tax take isnt very great.

 

What is it then?

 

I used the government's own tax calculator that included NI. I also rated the pension contributions at £0 for both. As for high earners tax breaks, a banker at (for arguements sake) JPM gets none of what you've listed?

[JackanorySFC]

no but its good for jobs and shops companys and production when more people can spend more on their products than one person who just hoards more cash than they will ever need.

 

That is completely made up.

Even if it wasn't, what is the definaition of more money than you'll ever need? £1m, £1b, what?

 

High net worth individuals buy cars, restaurant meals, holidays (when they have time), clothes, a nanny, a gardener, extentions on their houses, a new house, new bathrooms/ kitchens, in home entertainment etc.

 

All of the above keep "normal" earners in jobs. Or don't you realise that?

[solentstars]

That is completely made up.

Even if it wasn't, what is the definaition of more money than you'll ever need? £1m, £1b, what?

 

High net worth individuals buy cars, restaurant meals, holidays (when they have time), clothes, a nanny, a gardener, extentions on their houses, a new house, new bathrooms/ kitchens, in home entertainment etc.

 

All of the above keep "normal" earners in jobs. Or don't you realise that?

.

sorry i disagree one person spending in a shop hotel hairdressing etc rather than 100 is more important and would be better for my factory shop etc and creating jobs

[buctootim]

What is it then?

 

I used the government's own tax calculator that included NI. I also rated the pension contributions at £0 for both. As for high earners tax breaks, a banker at (for arguements sake) JPM gets none of what you've listed?

 

IF somebody on £500,000 paid full tax on their earnings and made 25% contributions to a private pension they would pay income tax of £165,000 and NI of £8759, total c£173,300.

17 people on earnings of £30,000pa would pay tax and NI totalling £125,375. However high earners typically have access to 'tax efficiency' methods including blind trusts, tax relief for various essential expenditures and other offsets. By the time you have added in 17 people paying 17 lots of council tax (c£1,400pa x 17 = £23,800) compared with say 1 x £3,000 then the difference is quite small, if indeed it exists at all.

[JackanorySFC]

IF somebody on £500,000 paid full tax on their earnings and made 25% contributions to a private pension they would pay income tax of £165,000 and NI of £8759, total c£173,300.

17 people on earnings of £30,000pa would pay tax and NI totalling £125,375. However high earners typically have access to 'tax efficiency' methods including blind trusts, tax relief for various essential expenditures and other offsets. By the time you have added in 17 people paying 17 lots of council tax (c£1,400pa x 17 = £23,800) compared with say 1 x £3,000 then the difference is quite small, if indeed it exists at all.

 

You've moved the goalposts there fella. 17x £30k vs 1x £1m. I was basing all my arithmatic on the original statement from aintforever that said:

Of course they don't just stash their money but just because 1 person earns billions doesn't mean there is more money in the economy, it just means the money is more unevenly distributed. 500 people earning 20,000 will spend more on goods, services etc than one person earning 1000,000.

 

Obviously he was a decimal point out (500 instead of 50) and missed a comma (1000,000 instead of 1,000,000) but he is clearly comparing £20k workers to a £1m worker. I merely stated that it is a mathematical impossibility due to the higher earner paying far more in tax so cannot compete in terms of expenditure.

Edited 9 February, 2011 by JackanorySFC
because I've paid a fiver

[JackanorySFC]

.

sorry i disagree one person spending in a shop hotel hairdressing etc rather than 100 is more important and would be better for my factory shop etc and creating jobs

 

Who do you think owns the factory?

[Sheaf Saint]

Who do you think owns the factory?

 

But what if that factory owner decides that it would be much more beneficial to close it and move his operations overseas so that he doesn't have top pay any tax on the company's earnings from abroad? Ok, we'll still have a £1m earner paying his own income tax etc.. but all of his UK staff will be out of a job and claiming JSA.

[Johnny Bognor]

Simply that people on 'normal' incomes typically pay relatively little into pension schemes and the money they do contribute gets tax relief at only 23%. High earners typically pay a lot more into pensions and those contributions attract 40% tax relief. Also 'normal' earners pay NI on nearly all their income, but the upper threshold is c£44,000pa - ie earnings above this are NI exempt. Add in high earners tax breaks ('essential' business clothes, home office, off shored earnings etc) and the difference in tax take isnt very great.

 

Ahhhh, but the 500 people on £20k per annum are far more likely to consume more public services and so cost a lot more than just one. If you take this into account and look at the "net" contribution, it will be far less.

[solentstars]

Who do you think owns the factory?

 

hopefully the shareholders who will see the value of their shares to go up and earn real returns on increased profits due to sdemand for its goods

[aintforever]

Ahhhh, but the 500 people on £20k per annum are far more likely to consume more public services and so cost a lot more than just one. If you take this into account and look at the "net" contribution, it will be far less.

 

I disagree, someone on minimum wage will pretty much spend all their income on goods, food, services etc, a much higher percentage of their income than someone who earns millions.

 

I was merely responding to the suggestion that we should all be grateful to the super rich because them buying yachts, cars etc keep us in jobs which is nonsense. We all contribute to the economy and as the super rich generally spend less as a percentage, and the fact that all of their money has just been taken from other people, means the opposite is true.

Edited 9 February, 2011 by aintforever

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

I disagree, someone on minimum wage will pretty much spend all their income on goods, food, services etc, a much higher percentage of their income than someone who earns millions.

 

I was merely responding to the suggestion that we should all be grateful to the super rich because them buying yachts, cars etc keep us in jobs which is nonsense. We all contribute to the economy and as the super rich generally spend less as a percentage, and the fact that all of their money has just been taken from other people, means the opposite is true.

 

Indeed a key feature of the UK's industrial revolution, the rise of the US as the economic super power and the recent rapid growth in Brazil's economy, was/is a growing middle class/upper working class that provides a mass market for domestic goods and services.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

 

So Richard Branson isn't a wealth creator no? If he didn't come along people would just spend their money elsewhere? Are you saying there should be no competition in any market place? What on earth is your alternative?

 

The Army aside - you can't put a price on those boys bravery - my mate works FAR harder than nurses and teachers that I know. Way longer hours, far more stress, no family time and extremely complicated work that requires top end education/ learning.

 

No such thing as a wealth creator?

 

I would like to offer your mate a work place trade for a week and then we'll see who can hack what you arrogant ****.

[aintforever]

 

So Richard Branson isn't a wealth creator no? If he didn't come along people would just spend their money elsewhere? Are you saying there should be no competition in any market place? What on earth is your alternative?

 

The Army aside - you can't put a price on those boys bravery - my mate works FAR harder than nurses and teachers that I know. Way longer hours, far more stress, no family time and extremely complicated work that requires top end education/ learning.

 

No such thing as a wealth creator?

 

My mate is a good salesman, he earns more than the PM yet he spends half the week ***ting balls round a golf course, my chippy mate earns less than me yet barely has a day off work. Hard work doesn't necessarily mean more money at all, it's much more to do with how this f*cked up world values your talent/occupation.

 

Brason has created a good busness, good airline etc, all the money he has made has been taken from other people - it's nonsense to say he has created wealth, he has built up a good way of TAKING wealth.

[solentstars]

Indeed a key feature of the UK's industrial revolution, the rise of the US as the economic super power and the recent rapid growth in Brazil's economy, was/is a growing middle class/upper working class that provides a mass market for domestic goods and services.

 

to true its about time we made real things again and to export and sell round the world the trouble with this country is are financial services have become to big part of our economy and we need to broaden our base ,manufacturing,engineering,software,media etc.

how someone thinks gambling in financial sevices works harder than labourers ,nurses,builders is beyond me.

[Johnny Bognor]

Brason has created a good busness, good airline etc, all the money he has made has been taken from other people - it's nonsense to say he has created wealth, he has built up a good way of TAKING wealth.

 

Nonsense.

 

So you are saying the only way of creating wealth is to make and sell things?

[aintforever]

Nonsense.

 

So you are saying the only way of creating wealth is to make and sell things?

 

No, Branson has created a lot, a good airline, brand etc, I don't begrudge him earning any of it because he has enriched the lives of millions.

 

I just think the term "wealth creater" is nonsense as there is a finite amount of money, just by grabbing a load for yourself doesn't mean you have created anything. People like Branson & Leibherr have created great things and rightly become wealthy as a result. People who buy some shares then flog them for a profit have not created anything.

[solentstars]

Nonsense.

 

So you are saying the only way of creating wealth is to make and sell things?

 

are you going to give me money for nothing then:lol:

[solentstars]

No, Branson has created a lot, a good airline, brand etc, I don't begrudge him earning any of it because he has enriched the lives of millions.

 

I just think the term "wealth creater" is nonsense as there is a finite amount of money, just by grabbing a load for yourself doesn't mean you have created anything. People like Branson & Leibherr have created great things and rightly become wealthy as a result. People who buy some shares then flog them for a profit have not created anything.

 

i think your spot on but i think investors who put money in companys long term deserve rewards .

[Johnny Bognor]

are you going to give me money for nothing then:lol:

 

Look, I don't want to patronise you, but when you make and sell a product, you charge for the material inputs/costs and the Labour required to make/assemble it, plus some profit on top.

 

In the services industry, you sell your time and the only difference is that there may be no material cost.

 

Therefore, I would not give you money for nothing, but pay for your time / labour (as this is the only input). The value you are adding is your expertise / experience.

So rather than giving me something tangible in exchange for cash, you are giving me something intangible for cash.

[solentstars]

Look, I don't want to patronise you, but when you make and sell a product, you charge for the material inputs/costs and the Labour required to make/assemble it, plus some profit on top.

 

In the services industry, you sell your time and the only difference is that there may be no material cost.

 

Therefore, I would not give you money for nothing, but pay for your time / labour (as this is the only input). The value you are adding is your expertise / experience.

So rather than giving me something tangible in exchange for cash, you are giving me something intangible for cash.

 

i agree you are right their our some services and do need paying for

[Fuengirola Saint]

Could one of our Tory friends answer the OP's point that these companies can now outsource their work and then not be liable for uk tax, whereas now they would be liable for whatever they haven't paid in their new country up to 28%. Can somebody explain how this is good for the UK? Remember they had a base here( this being a made up example to highlight the issue ) employing people and being liable for 28% corporation tax, now they have closed their British operation and the loss of jobs that entails.

[Jonnyboy]

Look, I don't want to patronise you, but when you make and sell a product, you charge for the material inputs/costs and the Labour required to make/assemble it, plus some profit on top.

 

In the services industry, you sell your time and the only difference is that there may be no material cost.

 

Therefore, I would not give you money for nothing, but pay for your time / labour (as this is the only input). The value you are adding is your expertise / experience.

So rather than giving me something tangible in exchange for cash, you are giving me something intangible for cash.

 

I get confused philosophically speaking here, but are you talking about a blowjob?

[Johnny Bognor]

Could one of our Tory friends answer the OP's point that these companies can now outsource their work and then not be liable for uk tax, whereas now they would be liable for whatever they haven't paid in their new country up to 28%. Can somebody explain how this is good for the UK? Remember they had a base here( this being a made up example to highlight the issue ) employing people and being liable for 28% corporation tax, now they have closed their British operation and the loss of jobs that entails.

 

I am personally uncomfortable with these proposals. I would prefer a standard reduction in corporation tax which would negate the need for any of these 'schemes'. Rather than exporting jobs, we would then be importing them which makes total sense to me as companies would want to base their operations here. However, 'the people' would never wear lower corporation tax.

[JackanorySFC]

I would like to offer your mate a work place trade for a week and then we'll see who can hack what you arrogant ****.

 

What, to see if he can match your 4k+ posts on a football forum? He's too busy making clients, his company and his family wealthy. He would have been picked up by his driver at 4.30am this morning to be in the City for 5am, he will leave approx 11.00pm tonight, look through his little boy's bedroom door to make sure he's still there and do it all over again tomorrow. Without time for a single post on an internet website between.

 

How many days holiday have you taken this year? He took 2 for a stag do and 5 for his honeymoon.

 

Face facts, the likes of me and you are meant for "average" lives, thank god for the hard working few that earn big bucks and through their taxes pay for the services we and our friends enjoy.

[Fuengirola Saint]

I am personally uncomfortable with these proposals. I would prefer a standard reduction in corporation tax which would negate the need for any of these 'schemes'. Rather than exporting jobs, we would then be importing them which makes total sense to me as companies would want to base their operations here. However, 'the people' would never wear lower corporation tax.

 

If you can see the folly in these proposals why can't the government? I'll tell you why, it's because the millionaire trust fund Bullingdon Boys in the present government cannot see beyond their own snouts in the trough and helping their friends out in the city. It is in my eyes the rape of this country for the enrichment of a few.

As somebody said either here or in a newspaper " The rich are pillaging now for all it's worth because the way it's going there will be nothing left in 10.20 years " If we have to have this race to the bottom to placate the multinational corporations then lets have a lower tax rate rather than these proposals, but you do know in 5 yrs for example they'll come back asking for more so we'll have to cut more social programs to pay for it. It's a ****ing scandal and i really hope the docile population of the west wakes up very soon for their own sakes. Rant over

[Wade Garrett]

What, to see if he can match your 4k+ posts on a football forum? He's too busy making clients, his company and his family wealthy. He would have been picked up by his driver at 4.30am this morning to be in the City for 5am, he will leave approx 11.00pm tonight, look through his little boy's bedroom door to make sure he's still there and do it all over again tomorrow. Without time for a single post on an internet website between.

 

How many days holiday have you taken this year? He took 2 for a stag do and 5 for his honeymoon.

 

Face facts, the likes of me and you are meant for "average" lives, thank god for the hard working few that earn big bucks and through their taxes pay for the services we and our friends enjoy.

 

Are you sucking your mate off?

[JackanorySFC]

Are you sucking your mate off?

 

Witty.

 

I'm proud of him, lad from Harefield estate that now has a top job at a top firm. A true inspiration to any kids out there that through hard work you can do whatever you like. Even more proud that his annual taxes pay for my missus' job as a teacher along with 7 of her colleagues.

 

We don't celebrate success in this country, far more likely to be snide and have a dig. Pathetic.

[buctootim]

I doubt if his little boy, who never sees his dad through the week and probably only for a few hours on the weekend sees it that way. Any man who has is married with a young family and is out of the house from 4.30am till 11.30pm should not be be lauded imo.

Edited 10 February, 2011 by buctootim

[JackanorySFC]

I doubt if his little boy, who never sees his dad through the week and probably only for a few hours on the weekend sees it that way. Any man who has a young family and is out of the house from 4.30am till 11.30pm should not be be lauded imo.

 

It tears my pal apart that. He employs a nanny full time as his missus is a City Lawyer. He's 31 now any fully intends to retire at 40 although I'm worried it might be too late by then. His is by no means a perfect life, there's no way I could either a- hack it, or b- stand being away from my kid but unfortunately this country needs workers like this to put in the hours and earn enough to pay the taxes to employ 8 teachers - that's why I "laud" him.

[Pancake]

We don't celebrate success in this country, far more likely to be snide and have a dig. Pathetic.

 

How very true.

[buctootim]

It tears my pal apart that. He employs a nanny full time as his missus is a City Lawyer. He's 31 now any fully intends to retire at 40 although I'm worried it might be too late by then. His is by no means a perfect life, there's no way I could either a- hack it, or b- stand being away from my kid but unfortunately this country needs workers like this to put in the hours and earn enough to pay the taxes to employ 8 teachers - that's why I "laud" him.

 

The City guys who work those kind of hours are usually trying to be at work when markets in Japan open and still there when markets in the US close. There is no inherent need for one person to cover those hours. It can easily be done with two guys earning £500,000pa instead of one on £1million.

 

The trouble with the City is that it has developed a macho culture where it is important to be seen to be at your desk from early till late, regardless of whether that is productive time or not. The UK needs an effective and successful financial services industry -and that is built on skills. The current set-up simply encourages investment / M&A bankers to make a lot of money for themselves quickly and get out (or be pushed out) by their 30s.

 

Go round the offices, you see very few staff in their 40s or 50s, those with most experience and knowledge, because they leave in response to the working conditions. The industry and the UK would be better served by retaining experienced able staff for a whole career. That way the people who work in the city wouldnt be burnt out by 35, there would be more employment not less and we wouldnt get the repeated banking ****ups every 20 years. Its not radical or impractical, the insurance market which is equally global does it, the bankers just need to follow suit.

Edited 10 February, 2011 by buctootim

[Wade Garrett]

Witty.

 

I'm proud of him, lad from Harefield estate that now has a top job at a top firm. A true inspiration to any kids out there that through hard work you can do whatever you like. Even more proud that his annual taxes pay for my missus' job as a teacher along with 7 of her colleagues.

 

We don't celebrate success in this country, far more likely to be snide and have a dig. Pathetic.

 

What an absolute load of sh*t.

 

It strikes me that your mate and his wife are both putting their careers in front of their family. Isn't one massive salary enough to live on? And you're trying to extract sympathy from us because his chosen profession is the one that has taken this country to the brink of abyss, and will take a generation to put right.

 

Leave it out. And don't forget, banks have put a lot of people and businesses in the poor house, as well as creating wealth. Short selling and other unscrupulous deals to make themselves rich at the expense of anyone who gets in their way.

 

Not everything they do benefits the economy, and by the way, I know plenty of people from council estates who have done extremely well for themselves. You make it sound like your mate is the only one.

 

I still think you're tromboning him though.

[Johnny Bognor]

If you can see the folly in these proposals why can't the government? I'll tell you why, it's because the millionaire trust fund Bullingdon Boys in the present government cannot see beyond their own snouts in the trough and helping their friends out in the city. It is in my eyes the rape of this country for the enrichment of a few.

As somebody said either here or in a newspaper " The rich are pillaging now for all it's worth because the way it's going there will be nothing left in 10.20 years " If we have to have this race to the bottom to placate the multinational corporations then lets have a lower tax rate rather than these proposals, but you do know in 5 yrs for example they'll come back asking for more so we'll have to cut more social programs to pay for it. It's a ****ing scandal and i really hope the docile population of the west wakes up very soon for their own sakes. Rant over

 

Bloody hell Fuengi, that's twice you've agreed with me now.

[surrey1saint]

Even my solicitor thinks its only a matter of time before we do here what they are doing in Egypt...what a *ucking state this country is in.

[dune]

Even my solicitor thinks its only a matter of time before we do here what they are doing in Egypt...what a *ucking state this country is in.

 

What nonsense. Most people support what the government is doing. You only have to look at the polls and they regularly suggest that most people trust the conservatives to run the economy.

[aintforever]

this country needs workers like this to put in the hours and earn enough to pay the taxes to employ 8 teachers - that's why I "laud" him.

 

What a load of crap, this country needs all sorts of workers to function. He pays more back to society because he and his company take much much more out of it.

 

All this "works really really hard" stuff is a load of sh!te as well, millions of people work their asses off, just because he is in a industry that is great at creaming off billions of pounds doesn't make him some sort of hero worker.