Turkish Posted 7 February, 2011 Author Posted 7 February, 2011 (edited) No, you are wrong, PC (or as I prefer to call it 'common decency') has nothing to do with it. This is only about how well two adults can care for a child. I can think of plenty of hetro couples who have failed to raise their children well (e.g. Big Fat Gypsy Weddings, most residents in Pompey, Walter and Daisy West etc). I conclude that you are merely trying to hide your homophobia behind some form of (flawed) morality. And there it is, the homophobic comment. Utter nonsense. I do not agree with same sex parenting because it is a fact that children needs a mother and a father and a stable home enviornment to grow up as a balanced person. Obviously there will always be cases of bad parenting with hetrosexual couples, but how anyone can argue that it is correct for a baby to be raised by a 63 year old gay man is beyond me. And apart from anything else the bullying and ridcule at school a child of a gay couple will be subject too should be enough to put most gay couples adopting should be enough to put them off, if they care about the child that is and are not trying to make a statement about themselves. Edited 7 February, 2011 by Turkish
Joensuu Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 Yes but I was talking about parents of comparable quality which is what I tried to convey in my answers. I guess, if everything else were equal, the less stigmatised upbringing is likely to give the child an easier time at school. Unfortunately we are currently not in a situation where couples are treated equally, the sexuality element eliminates high quality adoptees a long time before their hetro counterparts - and that needs to be redressed.
JustMike Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 I wonder if the kid will say the same when he wonders in 10 years time why all his mates have got mums and he hasn't? no different to a dad raising his kids alone. Kids adapt very well to different situations, if the kid is well loved and cared for then no problem.
JustMike Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 And there it is, the homophobic comment. Utter nonsense. I do not agree with same sex parenting because it is a fact that children needs a mother and a father and a stable home enviornment to grow up as a balanced person. Obviously there will always be cases of bad parenting with hetrosexual couples, but how anyone can argue that it is correct for a baby to be raised by a 63 year old gay man is beyond me. ummm no it isnt!
JustMike Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 lets flip this slightly..what about 2 woman raising children?
Joensuu Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 And there it is, the homophobic comment. Utter nonsense. I do not agree with same sex parenting because it is a fact that children needs a mother and a father and a stable home enviornment to grow up as a balanced person. Obviously there will always be cases of bad parenting with hetrosexual couples, but how anyone can argue that it is correct for a baby to be raised by a 63 year old gay man is beyond me. Well Turkish, you were playing for it so I thought I'd deliver. I do not agree that your 'fact' is a fact at all. It is a unfounded statement of your personal belief. Oh, and I'm not arguing for a 63 year old - that is far too old to act as a responsible parent IMO.
LGTL Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 It's just a publicity stunt, they will have absolutely nothing to do with the child except on some public occasions no doubt. This is a total non-story really as the Nanny et al will bring it up.
Turkish Posted 7 February, 2011 Author Posted 7 February, 2011 ummm no it isnt! Umm, yes it is. It is scientifically proven that children raised by their bioligical parents are happier, better at school and better behaved. Dont worry though, you keep arguing with years of scientific evidence and traditional moral values and trot out your nonsense.
Turkish Posted 7 February, 2011 Author Posted 7 February, 2011 lets flip this slightly..what about 2 woman raising children? no difference. A kid needs a mother and father, not two of one.
hypochondriac Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 I guess, if everything else were equal, the less stigmatised upbringing is likely to give the child an easier time at school. Unfortunately we are currently not in a situation where couples are treated equally, the sexuality element eliminates high quality adoptees a long time before their hetro counterparts - and that needs to be redressed. It isn't purely about school, it's about psychological upbringing of the child, their sense of identity and the qualities and advice (as well as motherly instincts) that only a mother can provide.
hypochondriac Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 lets flip this slightly..what about 2 woman raising children? Same applies.
Turkish Posted 7 February, 2011 Author Posted 7 February, 2011 Well Turkish, you were playing for it so I thought I'd deliver. I do not agree that your 'fact' is a fact at all. It is a unfounded statement of your personal belief. Oh, and I'm not arguing for a 63 year old - that is far too old to act as a responsible parent IMO. It is a fact. Why do people stay in unhappy relationships for the sake of their kids? It because people know that it is better for them to grow up with both parents around.
Deppo Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 And apart from anything else the bullying and ridcule at school a child of a gay couple will be subject too should be enough to put most gay couples adopting should be enough to put them off, if they care about the child that is and are not trying to make a statement about themselves. Good idea. What do you suggest about disabled children? They will get bullied too. What is the solution? Perhaps termination at birth? Any parent who cares about their child would do that, wouldn't they?
Turkish Posted 7 February, 2011 Author Posted 7 February, 2011 Good idea. What do you suggest about disabled children? They will get bullied too. What is the solution? Perhaps termination at birth? Any parent who cares about their child would do that, wouldn't they? Dont be a moron, that is totally different.
Deppo Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 It is a fact. Why do people stay in unhappy relationships for the sake of their kids? It because people know that it is better for them to grow up with both parents around. No it isn't. It is far worse for the kids if the parents are unhappy and staying together just for the kids.
hypochondriac Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 no difference. A kid needs a mother and father, not two of one. I wouldn't say they NEED it (children can manage perfectly well with one parent) but it is infinitely preferable and you do miss out with a single parent. Go work in a children's nursery and after a while you can recognise the three year olds with single parents without being told. Seriously.
Deppo Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 Dont be a moron, that is totally different. I'm just seeing if I can out-moron you on this thread. I think I did quite well. And it was quite a challenge.
Joensuu Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 I like to think I have some knowledge in the area, considering my profession and also considering that I have an adopted sister. I'm not familiar with your family or profession. I guess I was hoping for you to respond something like this: http://people.virginia.edu/~cjp/articles/ffp10b.pdf "Thus, it appears that more children could potentially benefit from having permanent homes with capable parents if lesbian and gay adults were allowed to adopt in the U.S. and elsewhere"
JustMike Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 Umm, yes it is. It is scientifically proven that children raised by their bioligical parents are happier, better at school and better behaved. Dont worry though, you keep arguing with years of scientific evidence and traditional moral values and trot out your nonsense. sorry but that is bull! Where are your stats on this? There is not enough cases of the alternative to make a fair test. You ignore all those kids that are raised by their biological parents that go off the rails. It's easy to dismiss same sex parenting / loan parenting because it goes against the individuals beliefs.
Joensuu Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 It is a fact. Wrong. Why do people stay in unhappy relationships for the sake of their kids? It because people know that it is better for them to grow up with both parents around. Irrelevant, as this could equally apply to homosexual couples. [Whether it is a good thing for anybody to be doing is a different subject]
Thedelldays Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 would a little boy more likely grow up and turn out to be gay if brought up by two hatters..?
JustMike Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 I wouldn't say they NEED it (children can manage perfectly well with one parent) but it is infinitely preferable and you do miss out with a single parent. Go work in a children's nursery and after a while you can recognise the three year olds with single parents without being told. Seriously. I am more qualified than most to comment on this seeing as I have been raising my kids alone since 1999. They are fit, healthy and well loved. Doing very well at school and are not bullied because their mum isnt around. I have met many in the same boat over the years and have found similar. For this, I had to adapt to both roles and it clearly works.
Joensuu Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 would a little boy more likely grow up and turn out to be gay if brought up by two hatters..? Possibly, but unlikely.
Turkish Posted 7 February, 2011 Author Posted 7 February, 2011 No it isn't. It is far worse for the kids if the parents are unhappy and staying together just for the kids. People stay together for their kids, i know plenty that do, some good friends of mine have been in this position. They stay together because they want their kids to grow up in a stable enviornment.
JustMike Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 No it isn't. It is far worse for the kids if the parents are unhappy and staying together just for the kids. best thing you have said for a while!
Deppo Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 would a little boy more likely grow up and turn out to be gay if brought up by two hatters..? Probably just as likely to as a man who spends his time locked up on a submarine with other men.
Turkish Posted 7 February, 2011 Author Posted 7 February, 2011 I'm just seeing if I can out-moron you on this thread. I think I did quite well. And it was quite a challenge. makes a change you usually manage it comfortably, in your self appointed forum jester role.
Deppo Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 People stay together for their kids, i know plenty that do, some good friends of mine have been in this position. They stay together because they want their kids to grow up in a stable enviornment. Hardly stable if they are unhappy, is it?
JustMike Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 People stay together for their kids, i know plenty that do, some good friends of mine have been in this position. They stay together because they want their kids to grow up in a stable enviornment. how is 2 people that dont get on staying together stable? Kids, especially young children pick up on bad vibes and if anything it makes them more unstable.
JustMike Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 Turkish / Hypo...just out of interest, do you have children?
Thedelldays Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 how is 2 people that dont get on staying together stable? Kids, especially young children pick up on bad vibes and if anything it makes them more unstable. maybe they do get on..but dont love each other...maybe they have both put their own loves lives on hold for the sake of the kids
Joensuu Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 And apart from anything else the bullying and ridcule at school a child of a gay couple will be subject too should be enough to put most gay couples adopting should be enough to put them off, if they care about the child that is and are not trying to make a statement about themselves. So are you saying anybody faced with prejudice should give up just in case they run into adversity? (Are you still in the 70s?)
Deppo Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 Turkish / Hypo...just out of interest, do you have children? They have adopted children together. They put the childrens' unhappiness down to their homosexuality and failed to realise that it was just because they are both ****s.
Thedelldays Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 Probably just as likely to as a man who spends his time locked up on a submarine with other men. im a red blooded male who like the front bum, thank you very much
Turkish Posted 7 February, 2011 Author Posted 7 February, 2011 how is 2 people that dont get on staying together stable? Kids, especially young children pick up on bad vibes and if anything it makes them more unstable. Okay, i'll ignore my personal experience of a good friend of mine keeping their relationship together because she wants their 5 year son to grow up as part of a family with his dad around and didn't divorce him for only this reason, even though he deserved it.
Turkish Posted 7 February, 2011 Author Posted 7 February, 2011 So are you saying anybody faced with prejudice should give up just in case they run into adversity? (Are you still in the 70s?) WOuld you do something that would deliberately put your child in a position where they would almost certainly be subject of ridicule and bullying?
Deppo Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 maybe they do get on..but dont love each other...maybe they have both put their own loves lives on hold for the sake of the kids Turkish said 'unhappy'. This is Turkish's hypothetical situation that JustMike is responding to.
Joensuu Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 People stay together for their kids, i know plenty that do, some good friends of mine have been in this position. They stay together because they want their kids to grow up in a stable enviornment. Interesting, but how is that even slightly relevant to homosexual adoption?
Deppo Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 im a red blooded male who like the front bum, thank you very much There you go then.
JustMike Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 maybe they do get on..but dont love each other...maybe they have both put their own loves lives on hold for the sake of the kids well yes there will obviously be situations where they get on but dont love each other but it still comes out, adults have needs too
Turkish Posted 7 February, 2011 Author Posted 7 February, 2011 Turkish / Hypo...just out of interest, do you have children? No i dont and hats off to you for making your situation work.
Joensuu Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 WOuld you do something that would deliberately put your child in a position where they would almost certainly be subject of ridicule and bullying? So where's the line? Should a ginger couple not have kids for fear of ridicule and bullying? Perhaps only those with blond hair and blue eyes should be allowed to breed eh?
Turkish Posted 7 February, 2011 Author Posted 7 February, 2011 Interesting, but how is that even slightly relevant to homosexual adoption? it doesn't but was following on from my point about a child needing a mother and father.
Thedelldays Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 So where's the line? Should a ginger couple not have kids for fear of ridicule and bullying? Perhaps only those with blond hair and blue eyes should be allowed to breed eh? I bet if you could pick your own baby from a photo album...you would not pick a fat and/or ginger one...!!!
JustMike Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 Okay, i'll ignore my personal experience of a good friend of mine keeping their relationship together because she wants their 5 year son to grow up as part of a family with his dad around and didn't divorce him for only this reason, even though he deserved it. didnt say to ignore it but it's hardly stable is it?
Joensuu Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 it doesn't but was following on from my point about a child needing a mother and father. Let me correct that for you: it doesn't but was following on from my point about a child preferably having two caring and stable parents.
JustMike Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 No i dont and hats off to you for making your situation work. thanks I guess that's the key line, "...making your situation work"
Joensuu Posted 7 February, 2011 Posted 7 February, 2011 I bet if you could pick your own baby from a photo album...you would not pick a fat and/or ginger one...!!! No, I guess I wouldn't.
Turkish Posted 7 February, 2011 Author Posted 7 February, 2011 (edited) So where's the line? Should a ginger couple not have kids for fear of ridicule and bullying? Perhaps only those with blond hair and blue eyes should be allowed to breed eh? You have no control over your biological childrens appearance or future health. You do have control on if you chose to adopt and it is very likely that a child of a same sex relationship will be a victim of bullying. I am sure they are aware of this. Edited 7 February, 2011 by Turkish
Turkish Posted 7 February, 2011 Author Posted 7 February, 2011 didnt say to ignore it but it's hardly stable is it? she has made it stable, to the detriment of her own happiness, putting her kid first.
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