Dig Dig Posted 6 February, 2011 Share Posted 6 February, 2011 One of the main issue's is that we allow segregation. The various nationalities form subcultures and tend to settle in the same areas which only serves to create a "them and us" mentality. Anyone who decides to emigrate anywhere in the world should do so with a desire to actully live within the country and not just create a mini home from home. Otherwise just don't go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 6 February, 2011 Share Posted 6 February, 2011 Don't even pretend that you have no idea what i am talking about, you know as much as i do. You are a delivery driver, so you hear as much talk that would not be deemed politically correct as any other. Do you deny that ? So all van drivers are racist? Nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 6 February, 2011 Share Posted 6 February, 2011 One of the main issue's is that we allow segregation. The various nationalities form subcultures and tend to settle in the same areas which only serves to create a "them and us" mentality. Anyone who decides to emigrate anywhere in the world should do so with a desire to actully live within the country and not just create a mini home from home. Otherwise just don't go! But it's always been so. Think of Jewish people in the East End of London or parts of Manchester, or Irish people in NW London. Just two examples of many. Of course people will gravitate to areas where there are people of similar origin and we'd do the same if we were to move abroad. But, once people have settled and got to know their way around, they often dissipate and become part of a wider community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mightysaints Posted 6 February, 2011 Share Posted 6 February, 2011 I was working in Tower Hamlets a few weeks ago and had to go to a local council office. All their leaflets, staff,info etc is done in every lingo going. Its no wonder we have segrigation when we have not asked people to fit into the counrty when we don't even asked them to even have a grasp of English. Being able to speak the same languge the best and easiest way for us all to get on. If we cannot communicate with eachother then you are in trouble straight away.We are fortunate down here that its not a major issue but i have been in and around some old the old mill towns up north and the middle east and i could not tell the diffrence at times apart from the weather. This is going to explode if not delt with but unfortunitly the Human rights idiots have for to long screwed up and stopped a democratic discussion taking place. This is when you get far right parties from all sides kicking off, allow the discussions and then you take away the idiots that twist things from both spectrums. Fully agree with Dig dig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 6 February, 2011 Share Posted 6 February, 2011 But it's always been so. Think of Jewish people in the East End of London or parts of Manchester, or Irish people in NW London. Just two examples of many. Of course people will gravitate to areas where there are people of similar origin and we'd do the same if we were to move abroad. But, once people have settled and got to know their way around, they often dissipate and become part of a wider community. I know it's always been the case but should it be? Brits do it abroad all over the place. The point I'm making is I wouldn't just move to an area populated by brits as in my opinion, it just promotes sticking to your home grown values and not integrating into what should be your new "home" culture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 6 February, 2011 Share Posted 6 February, 2011 I know it's always been the case but should it be? Brits do it abroad all over the place. The point I'm making is I wouldn't just move to an area populated by brits as in my opinion, it just promotes sticking to your home grown values and not integrating into what should be your new "home" culture To some extent I agree with you - if ever I were to move abroad (unlikely) I'd want to learn the language and the customs. But - when I was working in Leicester a couple of years ago, I was delighted to be invited by my client to his family's Eid celebrations; many years ago I was flattered to be asked to go to an Indian wedding; a Polish girl who came to my aerobics class invited me to lunch where I had bigos for the first time.; my Jamaican midwife treated us to soul food, yams and collards and her brother taught me tile dancing.... And I love it - all the different cultures and customs in the mix that make the UK such an interesting place to live. How boring life would be without these delights. Crikey, if it weren't for a Portugese princess, we wouldn't have taken part in that quintessential British custom of tea drinking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 6 February, 2011 Share Posted 6 February, 2011 To some extent I agree with you - if ever I were to move abroad (unlikely) I'd want to learn the language and the customs. But - when I was working in Leicester a couple of years ago, I was delighted to be invited by my client to his family's Eid celebrations; many years ago I was flattered to be asked to go to an Indian wedding; a Polish girl who came to my aerobics class invited me to lunch where I had bigos for the first time.; my Jamaican midwife treated us to soul food, yams and collards and her brother taught me tile dancing.... And I love it - all the different cultures and customs in the mix that make the UK such an interesting place to live. How boring life would be without these delights. Crikey, if it weren't for a Portugese princess, we wouldn't have taken part in that quintessential British custom of tea drinking! But these things can all exist regardless and for me thats what "multiculturilsm" is all about. Im not advocating not practising any traditional customs but rather, balancing these with and accepting the values of the country you chose to live in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 6 February, 2011 Share Posted 6 February, 2011 But these things can all exist regardless and for me thats what "multiculturilsm" is all about. Im not advocating not practising any traditional customs but rather, balancing these with and accepting the values of the country you chose to live in. So it comes back to the question I asked earlier. What, exactly, are those values? Who defines them? I'm British born and bred, but maybe my values are different to yours. Who is to say what the values are that we should strive for? Some people might say that our values are based on Christianity. But who's to say that Christianity is right and everything else is wrong? And even Christians have differing views - I'm thinking of Catholics and abortion / contraception. So how do we decide what those British values are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 6 February, 2011 Share Posted 6 February, 2011 (edited) So it comes back to the question I asked earlier. What, exactly, are those values? Who defines them? I'm British born and bred, but maybe my values are different to yours. Who is to say what the values are that we should strive for? Some people might say that our values are based on Christianity. But who's to say that Christianity is right and everything else is wrong? And even Christians have differing views - I'm thinking of Catholics and abortion / contraception. So how do we decide what those British values are? I'm not talking about values in terms of religion but there is a certain British way. Some of it is nice, some of it(a lot of fact) is ugly. And I'm not suggesting that I know what the right/wrong value are, i live by my own. My original point is that we are not truly multicultural because we encourage too much segregation which only serves to promotes extremist from all sides Edited 6 February, 2011 by Dig Dig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 6 February, 2011 Share Posted 6 February, 2011 I'm not talking about values in terms of religion but there is a certain British way. Some of it is nice, some of it(a lot of fact) is ugly. And I'm not suggesting that I know what the right/wrong value are, i live by my own. My original point is that we are not truly multicultural because we encourage too much segregation which only serves to promotes extremist from all sides Do we encourage it, do you think, or are we innocent victims of it? Isn't there an element of herd mentality sometimes. I mean, I wouldn't choose to mix with a load of Skates (even though I live with one ) because they're 'different' (I am, of course, joking). Do some of our immigrants choose to live together because they feel unwelcome in what are perceived to be 'white' areas? Do some people avoid what they consider to be 'immigrant' areas? I don't know. I think we all need to listen to each other to see if we can't change some of these perceptions. We've a long history of trying to impose our values on others (viz. the Empire and colonies) and we still do it now in parts of the world. I think that's arrogant and probably earns us more enemies than friends. We're not always the ones in the right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 7 February, 2011 Share Posted 7 February, 2011 I'm not talking about values in terms of religion but there is a certain British way. Some of it is nice, some of it(a lot of fact) is ugly. And I'm not suggesting that I know what the right/wrong value are, i live by my own. My original point is that we are not truly multicultural because we encourage too much segregation which only serves to promotes extremist from all sides Agree with the point on segregation. It only breeds ignorance, which we have enough of already, and helps to fuel extremist movements. However, your definition of British values is unsurprisingly, extremely wooly. Unlike the Americans, we've never had a constitution that we can point to and say "this is who we are". Granted, they're actually much worse at multiculturalism than we are, but they at least have a starting point of what they stand for enshrined in law. The closest indicator you can get to a set of British values is a look at the laws this country has enacted. However, many of the laws don't represent shared values - and the fact that many of them are trumped by generic EU legislation doesn't help either in the search for a set of British values. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 7 February, 2011 Share Posted 7 February, 2011 (edited) Far too much immigration in a short period of time. Hardly a surprisie it hasn't worked is it? Edited 7 February, 2011 by Sour Mash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurosaint Posted 7 February, 2011 Share Posted 7 February, 2011 You do know, of course, that Sharia courts have existed in England for at least 200 years and that those courts deal with issues of property and marriage and even then do not supersede UK or EU law? I work in the heart of the Black Country and many of the Muslim divorces (often women who married someone from "back home" and then realise that they have nowt in common) are settled in such courts before going to the "legal" courts to be rubber stamped? I often have a chat with one of the clerics who arbitrates on cases. Nice guy. Very bright with the thickest yam yam accent on the planet! Apart from some absolute extremist nutters who dream about black flags over Buck' House, and those brain dead folk who read about it and actually believe it could happen, Muslims except how the system works. There are, of course, Jewish courts in the UK that work in the same way. If for one minute they changed the UK law to say that Sharia superseded UK sovereign law I'd be on the barricades myself. The question is, is this acceptable within our society and within our own laws ? I suggest that it is not ! If ethnic groups are to use their own preferred system then it surely devalues the absolute rule of British law and becomes a form of anarchy ! We (as a nation) are much more accepting of these anomalies than most others (try doing the reverse in Middle Eastern countries for example!) but surely it would aid the principle of 'multiculturism' if all people adhered to the law of the host country without fear nor favour ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 7 February, 2011 Share Posted 7 February, 2011 The question is, is this acceptable within our society and within our own laws ? I suggest that it is not ! If ethnic groups are to use their own preferred system then it surely devalues the absolute rule of British law and becomes a form of anarchy ! We (as a nation) are much more accepting of these anomalies than most others (try doing the reverse in Middle Eastern countries for example!) but surely it would aid the principle of 'multiculturism' if all people adhered to the law of the host country without fear nor favour ?? But VFTT has just shown you that is has been acceptable to our society for many, many years. In any event, there is no way Sharia / Jewish courts would ever be able to override our legal system - they are just used for settling some civil disputes without having to resort to our courts. I'd imagine that any Muslim / Jewish person unhappy with a decision of their own court would just revert to our own legal system for adjudication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 7 February, 2011 Share Posted 7 February, 2011 But VFTT has just shown you that is has been acceptable to our society for many, many years. In any event, there is no way Sharia / Jewish courts would ever be able to override our legal system - they are just used for settling some civil disputes without having to resort to our courts. I'd imagine that any Muslim / Jewish person unhappy with a decision of their own court would just revert to our own legal system for adjudication. Yep, big difference between this, what actually happens, and what the scaremongerers will have you believe, which is that we'll become an Islamic republic ruled by imams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 7 February, 2011 Share Posted 7 February, 2011 I'd imagine that any Muslim / Jewish person unhappy with a decision of their own court would just revert to our own legal system for adjudication. and killed in the name of "honour" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 7 February, 2011 Share Posted 7 February, 2011 So all van drivers are racist? Nice. Yeah, cos thats what i meant idiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deppo Posted 7 February, 2011 Share Posted 7 February, 2011 You know when after a few days you think of what you should have said: When Cameron said that "Mulitculturalism has failed" someone should have shouted "Yeah, whereas 'Big Society' is really working, isn't it? You prat." And then thrown a shoe at him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 7 February, 2011 Share Posted 7 February, 2011 Yeah, cos thats what i meant idiot youll have to explain yourself better then, cleverclogs, Ive learned nothing so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsbridge Saint Posted 7 February, 2011 Share Posted 7 February, 2011 I used to think Multiculturalism was dommed to failure but the last 30 years has seen great stides in integration and acceptance of some cultures - West Indians and Sikhs for example. That was close to working and personally (white male) I feel a lot less threatened walking through some areas which have that ethnicity than I used to. Some areas will always be bad, largely the result of poverty though - and that would include white areas too. The key word is 'threatened' and the failure of multiculturalism in the UK can largely be laid firmly at the door of Islamist Extremism which is an actual rather than perceived threat and fuels the right wing organisations. Whilst most Muslims are harmless and seek to contribute, they follow a doctrine which subscribes to an agenda of violent intolerance. So peace has no chance, and multiculturism fails as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 8 February, 2011 Share Posted 8 February, 2011 So what's the plan then? We can't exactly send everyone packing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted 8 February, 2011 Share Posted 8 February, 2011 So what's the plan then? We can't exactly send everyone packing. Let's put the kettle on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgeweahscousin Posted 8 February, 2011 Share Posted 8 February, 2011 Having lived a year in Luton, I would say it is abundantly clear that Multiculturalism has failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurosaint Posted 8 February, 2011 Share Posted 8 February, 2011 But VFTT has just shown you that is has been acceptable to our society for many, many years. In any event, there is no way Sharia / Jewish courts would ever be able to override our legal system - they are just used for settling some civil disputes without having to resort to our courts. I'd imagine that any Muslim / Jewish person unhappy with a decision of their own court would just revert to our own legal system for adjudication. Correction ! VFTT has just shown that it happens in our society today, not that it is acceptable ! Also, I think that it is a bit naive to consider that those who feel let down by 'their own' courts just pop down the road and get a proper legal judgement and all is hunky dory (within a family dispute I think that this would drive an even bigger wedge between the parties!) ! Call me old fashioned, but surely there should be one law which applies to all and anything other is 'unacceptable' ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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