What can we take forward from yesterday..

[The9]

I suppose not, if you want to be a bit pedantic....

 

Yeah that's right, it's "pedantic" to point out a massive flaw in the stats being used.

[alpine_saint]

Yeah that's right, it's "pedantic" to point out a massive flaw in the stats being used.

 

I dont consider the difference between scoring and playing well as massive.

 

Teams playing sh*t dont score.

[Turkish]

Yes, I referred to the team being lifted by a certain players presence.

 

You saying that Giggs or Nani didnt lift Manyoo last night ?

 

The likes of Gascoigne or MLT didnt lift their teams ?

 

What about the likes of Maradonna ?

 

FFS, read the posts and try to digest them before composing your sneering responses.

 

I did read it, i am not saying he wouldn't lift the team or might have created other chances. We created chances against Nott County, Lallana being on the pitch doesn't make another player suddenly become a brilliant finisher. Do you really think if Lallana had been on the pitch and Dickson had crossed to Jaidi he would have stuck it in the net rather than heading it over? A move he would have been nothing to do with.

[The9]

There you go Turkish.

 

Although of course it wouldn't have helped Guly head the ball more accurately or Owen not being jammily in the only place to score, or Fonte falling over, however it might have meant Dickson wasn't on the pitch...

[alpine_saint]

I did read it, i am not saying he wouldn't lift the team or might have created other chances. We created chances against Nott County, Lallana being on the pitch doesn't make another player suddenly become a brilliant finisher. Do you really think if Lallana had been on the pitch and Dickson had crossed to Jaidi he would have stuck it in the net rather than heading it over? A move he would have been nothing to do with.

 

If the whole energy and focus of the team were lifted a bit by the presence of a talismanic player such as Lallana is rapidly becoming, it is ENTIRELY possible.

[The9]

I dont consider the difference between scoring and playing well as massive.

 

Teams playing sh*t dont score.

 

Yeah they do, all the time. Also when the difference is between zero and one, it's infinitely different.

[Legod Third Coming]

I did read it, i am not saying he wouldn't lift the team or might have created other chances. We created chances against Nott County, Lallana being on the pitch doesn't make another player suddenly become a brilliant finisher. Do you really think if Lallana had been on the pitch and Dickson had crossed to Jaidi he would have stuck it in the net rather than heading it over? A move he would have been nothing to do with.

 

No, but if Lallana had been on the pitch maybe someone else would have been in the position to score so it's kind of immaterial.

 

What the stats prove is that we are a better team with Lallana in it, but then that's like stats proving it's colder in winter than summer...

 

I think what Alpine is getting at (and I tend to agree with him) is that it is not Lallana's football per se which improves the team, but perhaps he inspires a little more belief in the team which means they play better asa whole unit because of his presence. Here the stats do suggest this is the case as we simple haven't won without him.

[Turkish]

If the whole energy and focus of the team were lifted a bit by the presence of a talismanic player such as Lallana is rapidly becoming, it is ENTIRELY possible.

 

Right so in that case we should score with every opportunity we have when Lallana is playing.

[alpine_saint]

Right so in that case we should score with every opportunity we have when Lallana is playing.

 

Christ, its like talking to a moron....

[NickG]

Supported by the last 2 league games. And how do you know Lallana returning from injury wasnt the catalyst that kick-started our season ?

 

I don't. I believe him to be the best player in league 1 so is big miss.

[Turkish]

No, but if Lallana had been on the pitch maybe someone else would have been in the position to score so it's kind of immaterial.

 

What the stats prove is that we are a better team with Lallana in it, but then that's like stats proving it's colder in winter than summer...

 

I think what Alpine is getting at (and I tend to agree with him) is that it is not Lallana's football per se which improves the team, but perhaps he inspires a little more belief in the team which means they play better asa whole unit because of his presence. Here the stats do suggest this is the case as we simple haven't won without him.

 

It seems taht what some of you seem to think is that not only is Lallana a good player himself but he improves everyone around him by 10000000%. Bad finishers become great finishers, average midfielders become world beaters if he is on the pitch. Not only is he a good player himself he is also a magician that makes headers that would be going over go into the net.

 

Oh by the way, do you still think we can sign anyone we want? It was you that said that.

Edited 30 January, 2011 by Turkish

[alpine_saint]

It seems taht what some of you seem to think is that not only is Lallana a good player himself but he improves everyone around him by 10000000%. Bad finishers become great finishers, average midfielders become world beaters if he is on the pitch. Not only is he a good player himself he is also a magician that makes headers that would be going over go into the net.

 

My 6 year old son debates like you. No grey areas, so subtlety.

[Turkish]

Christ, its like talking to a moron....

 

So let me get this right. You think that if Lallana had been playing he single handly improves the finishing ability of every player on the pitch? If Lallana had been playing, even though he would have been nothing to do with the cross or header, Jaidi would have scored rather than heading over, just the mere fact of him being on the pitch would have done this?

[Turkish]

My 6 year old son debates like you. No grey areas, so subtlety.

 

Read above you clown, i said he makes us a better team, only an idiot would say otherwise, but you seem to think that somehow he magically influcences the ability of all the players around him and can even influcence the direction the ball goes in when another player heads it.

[shurlock]

So let me get this right. You think that if Lallana had been playing he single handly improves the finishing ability of every player on the pitch? If Lallana had been playing, even though he would have been nothing to do with the cross or header, Jaidi would have scored rather than heading over, just the mere fact of him being on the pitch would have done this?

 

Lallana's got many skills but magically inhabiting others bodies isn't one of them - anyway, he can also be wasteful in front of goal.

 

You seem to suggest that the game turned on particular chancea -punch, jaidi, guly - no team in the world is so clinical that they convert every (half) chance they get. Fact is we struggled for ideas, didn't create enough or get behind them - something which Lallana's absence contributed to. You give the impression we were creating chances left-right and centre and it was only want of better finishing that we didn't win. If so, your point would be well taken; but the game was nothing like that.

Edited 30 January, 2011 by shurlock

[madruss]

Lallana adds something to the side that no other player in our squad can. He plays on the left, but makes lots of clever runs into the middle, creating space and pulling defenders out of position.

 

I would argue that the team creates better quality chances when AL is in the team and on song. The more quality chances a team creates, the more goals the team will score.

 

It's wrong to compare the Oldham chances with the Tranmere chances for example. The chances in the Oldham game were tap-ins from 6 yards and players with clean strikes on goal with lots of space. In the Tranmere games, the chances were tight headers in crowded penalty areas or long range efforts that were never going to trouble the keeper.

 

I wouldn't say Lallana's mere presence in the side improves the performance of others. But surely the space he creates for those other players enables those players to perform better.

[Turkish]

Lallana's got many skills but magically inhabiting others bodies isn't one of them - anyway, he can also be wasteful in front of goal.

 

You seem to suggest that the game turned on particular chancea -punch, jaidi, guly - no team in the world is so clinical that they convert every (half) chance they get. Fact is we struggled for ideas, didn't create enough or get behind them - something which Lallana's absence contributed to. You give the impression we creating chances left-right and centre and it was only want of better finishing that we didn't win. If so, your point would be well taken; but the game was nothing like that.

 

FFS, it's quite simple, we missed four good chances. Jaidi headed over, Puncheon blazed over, Gully shot instead of squaring to Chamberlain who had an open goal, FOnte had one off the line. Four chances which with better finishing we would have scored, right or wrong? If we score we win. If Lallana had played we may have created more or better chances, i am not saying that isnt the case, what i am saying is we created enough to win and did him being off the pitch make Jaidi miss? Did it make Gully shoot instead of passing? Would KD have come and claimed the ball against Tranmere instead of letting it go between him and Fonte if Lallana had been on the pitch? Yes or no?

We didn't draw with Notts County and lose and Tranmere because Lallana wan't playing, we got those results because of individual mistakes and poor finishing, nothing to do with if Lallana was playing or not. I dont understand why this is so difficult for some of you to understand.

[musesaint]

Lallana adds something to the side that no other player in our squad can. He plays on the left, but makes lots of clever runs into the middle, creating space and pulling defenders out of position.

 

I would argue that the team creates better quality chances when AL is in the team and on song. The more quality chances a team creates, the more goals the team will score.

 

It's wrong to compare the Oldham chances with the Tranmere chances for example. The chances in the Oldham game were tap-ins from 6 yards and players with clean strikes on goal with lots of space. In the Tranmere games, the chances were tight headers in crowded penalty areas or long range efforts that were never going to trouble the keeper.

 

I wouldn't say Lallana's mere presence in the side improves the performance of others. But surely the space he creates for those other players enables those players to perform better.

 

Adam Lallana is a Living Deity

 

FACT!

[shurlock]

FFS, it's quite simple, we missed four good chances. Jaidi headed over, Puncheon blazed over, Gully shot instead of squaring to Chamberlain who had an open goal, FOnte had one off the line. Four chances which with better finishing we would have scored, right or wrong? If we score we win. If Lallana had played we may have created more or better chances, i am not saying that isnt the case, what i am saying is we created enough to win and did him being off the pitch make Jaidi miss? Did it make Gully shoot instead of passing? Would KD have come and claimed the ball against Tranmere instead of letting it go between him and Fonte if Lallana had been on the pitch? Yes or no?

We didn't draw with Notts County and lose and Tranmere because Lallana wan't playing, we got those results because of individual mistakes and poor finishing, nothing to do with if Lallana was playing or not. I dont understand why this is so difficult for some of you to understand.

 

Wasteful finishing? Punch's was a v.difficult half-chance; Fonte's wasn't a miss but a decent header; Jaidi should have got his header on target but who knows if he would have beaten the keeper; and yes guly should have squared it. We were hardly wasteful. Most teams create more chances than that -not to mention actually work the keeper- and fail to score. We created two chances from open play. We didnt do or create enough with the possesion we enjoyed - and alot of that can be attributed to AL's absence.

 

Re. Tranmere I totally agree with you. I was there and AL had nothing to do with the result.

[Saint Fan CaM]

There is just one massive issue that we can take from yesterdays game - this team needs to get out of L1 to see it perform at it's best. Nothing else matters this season.

[shurlock]

There is just one massive issue that we can take from yesterdays game - this team needs to get out of L1 to see it perform at it's best. Nothing else matters this season.

 

Agree- yesterday showed we are better equipped for a more technical league which leaves you either massively optimistic about our chances of kicking on (should we get promotion) or fearful that we'll f**k up and be consigned to the lowest common denominator football of L1.

[Red and White Russ]

I learned that Harding is an excellent full-back, and that Guly needs to look up before passing the ball. It was shocking how many times he needlessly gave away posession when we were going forward.

[david in sweden]

..for the rest of our season ?

 

Whilst we all have our peckers up, including the team I reckon, there is still the minor issue that although we did well against Atkinson's....er....Ferguson's men, they are a footballing side, and there arent that many in this division. Just look at our last 2 league1 games.

 

Do we really have the nous to get the results against teams of obstructive hod-carriers ??

 

ANSWER : If we can play for 90 minutes, as we did yesterday ...we could be top of the Prem...for one week at least

but we have to do better than we did v. Notts County and Tranmere.

[david in sweden]

All coincidence. We still created the same level of chances when he was out of the side as when he was in. There is no way that Lallana being out of the side made every other player in our team worse at sticking the ball in the net after the chance was created.

 

No but at least he scores goals. For all the good press about Schneiderlin, his goal-scoring record is abysmal ..1 goal in three seasons??? though Hammond is a little better, it's obvious that AL, AOC and Chaplow are also capable of getting on the score sheet.

[SaintBobby]

Here's my take on it, although a lot of this involves some leaps of faith as well as the evidence of yesterday:

 

1. A sort of 4-1-3-2 formation works, with MS as a "quarterback"...worth far more than a mere defensive guard for the back 4.

2. It did mean we lacked a bit of defensive width...especially v Fabio in the first half, so we need to get the midfielders more used to covering for the right and left back.

3. Our strike force isn't as on fire as last year. From open play, not much of our threat came directly from RL or LB. My solution is to experiment a bit more up front, e.g. 4-3-3 or try RL and DN together, just to see if we can make something "click"

[Stu Man Do]

I learnt that Danny Butterfield should be our starting RB :-)

[captainchris]

Lallana might have made a difference against county -arguably he would have; but his absence was neither here or there for the Tranmere result. He might have allowed us to retain better possession of the ball but that wouldnt have been enough to compensate for the all the other areas we were sh ite.

 

Totally disagree with this. His influence would totally change a match and the way others play. The ball sticks with AL and is so rarely given away, this changes the whole comlex of the game as the statistics prove beyond doubt!

 

His absense in no way excuses the other players form when he isn't in the team but it without doubt does affect the them - even against Man U where we were unable to keep possesion when we had control of the game and more importantly later when we were tiring - hugely miss him ....!!

[Turkish]

Wasteful finishing? Punch's was a v.difficult half-chance; Fonte's wasn't a miss but a decent header; Jaidi should have got his header on target but who knows if he would have beaten the keeper; and yes guly should have squared it. We were hardly wasteful. Most teams create more chances than that -not to mention actually work the keeper- and fail to score. We created two chances from open play. We didnt do or create enough with the possesion we enjoyed - and alot of that can be attributed to AL's absence.

 

Re. Tranmere I totally agree with you. I was there and AL had nothing to do with the result.

 

IMO Jaidis miss was a bad one, Puncheons missed from about 7 yards, i wouldn't say this was a half chance, Guly should definitely have squared it to Chamberlain, no doubt about it. If only Lallana had been playing, even though he'd have had nothing to do with any of the moves we'd have scored with all three chances because the players would automatically be better finishers and make better decisions if he was on the pitch. In fact his presence alone and movement would also have taken the Notts County defender away from the goal line so Fontes header would have gone in as well.

[Deppo]

Interestingly, the stats show that whenever I have had a Beef Chow Mein Pot Noodle and a Strawberry Pop Tart (to dip in it) for breakfast, Saints have won. That's what the stats say, and you can't argue with stats. Therefore I deduce that we must play well as a result of my breakfasting habits.

[St_Tel49]

....also that we can play well without Lallana.

But not win

[benjii]

What I take from yesterday:

 

When we are on telly, posters who never normally watch us talk a lot more sense than usual.

 

Also, Adkins has some balls; basically treating the last half an hour as a training exercise and not bothering to try to respond to United's change was quite brave IMO and probably the right thing to do in the circumstances.

[sidthesquid]

What I learnt at school yesterday:

Schneiderlin will be a Prem star before he is done

The Oxo kid will also be a Prem star, but not quite ready yet (hurrah!)

Chaplow was great, but lacks stamina

Our 'reserve' full-backs are excellent

Seaborne & Fonte should be our first choice centre-back pairing

Guly is starting to look the part

And we actually did ourselves justice on TV for once

(On the downside, neither Lambert or Barnard quite looked on the pace. And Bart only fills me with a smidge more confidence than Kelvin does, and that is not a lot....)

Most importantly, IF we can crawl out of this league, our current squad will do very nicely in the CCC

[LGTL]

What I learnt at school yesterday:

Schneiderlin will be a Prem star before he is done

The Oxo kid will also be a Prem star, but not quite ready yet (hurrah!)

Chaplow was great, but lacks stamina

Our 'reserve' full-backs are excellent

Seaborne & Fonte should be our first choice centre-back pairing

Guly is starting to look the part

And we actually did ourselves justice on TV for once

(On the downside, neither Lambert or Barnard quite looked on the pace. And Bart only fills me with a smidge more confidence than Kelvin does, and that is not a lot....)

Most importantly, IF we can crawl out of this league, our current squad will do very nicely in the CCC

 

Agree with every word. Although Jaidi is extremely useful when up against certain opposition.

[Whitey Grandad]

Also, Adkins has some balls; basically treating the last half an hour as a training exercise and not bothering to try to respond to United's change was quite brave IMO and probably the right thing to do in the circumstances.

 

That's the way I view it. 60 minutes was enough to prove a point, then let them get a win so we can concentrate on the league. There's a grain of truth in this. These matches usually go to the team that wants it the most and playing Man U just didn't mean anything special to us, not in the same way that it might have to other clubs in the bottom two divisions who might never get another chance.

[Colinjb]

I take from that a few things.

 

1. We now have two default formations. The 4-3-3 that worked so effectively against Blackpool and Man Utd and our default 4-4-2. The weakness of the wings with the 4-3-3 is a worry but against teams in our own league, particularly at home... it's got to be worth a shout.

 

2. Our lack of fitness towards the end of the game was a worry. However, I'm happy to let it go, this game was in no way a priority.

 

3. The progress we have made since the last time we played the plastics is more then noticable. This is the best team we have had since the championship play-off season.

 

3. If we do not manage promotion this year we only have ourselves to blame.

[scotty]

That's the way I view it. 60 minutes was enough to prove a point, then let them get a win so we can concentrate on the league. There's a grain of truth in this. These matches usually go to the team that wants it the most and playing Man U just didn't mean anything special to us, not in the same way that it might have to other clubs in the bottom two divisions who might never get another chance.

 

this.

 

It was fantastic to go in at half time knowing we had outplayed the most successful football team in the country and scored against them, but the most satisfying thing to me was that they had to bring out the big guns nani and giggs to beat us. They would always have had the capacity to win the game, but Im glad they had to get a couple of players on whose wages would probably pay our entire squads to do it.

 

Side note; I went with a mate who predicted that we would be well up for it and go in ahead at half time, but that the munichs would ultimately prevail and win the game. He got 20 quid on that scenario at 22/1 so he's up £440. Whether that was worth the barracking he got in the pub afterwards for betting against his own team I dont know....

[doddisalegend]

That's the way I view it. 60 minutes was enough to prove a point, then let them get a win so we can concentrate on the league. There's a grain of truth in this. These matches usually go to the team that wants it the most and playing Man U just didn't mean anything special to us, not in the same way that it might have to other clubs in the bottom two divisions who might never get another chance.

 

hah lol yeah I can see the half time team talK

 

Nige - "well done lads good half I think we've proved we're better than Man U. Now go out there and lose this match we have more important things to worry about than beating Man U"

[Wes Tender]

One of our players might have learned rule one, that you don't pass across your own goalmouth when there are rival players lurking in the vicinity. Perhaps he had forgotten this from his early days in the Tyro leagues, but had he remembered, the winner of the replay would have been out of the hat to play Crawley.

 

Mind you, if we managed to overcome ManUre in the replay, we would undoubtedly lose against Crawley, because that is the nature of things when you support Saints.

 

Just have to hope that Crawley do a York on them.

[West End Saint]

A lot of positives came out of that game 1st time for ages we looked a good team without Lallana Morgan & Chappers had great games we showed what a good footballing team we are.

 

If we can get promotion the way we are set up we will do very well in the Championship I can see us doing a Swansea & challenging for play off's & Promotion our squad now would do well with 1 or 2 additions we would be a threat.

 

We must take the positives from the United game and transfer it to our league form starting tomorrow at Exeter we need to get out of this division this year & on Saturdays performance we should do it

[SouthlondonSaint]

There is just one massive issue that we can take from yesterdays game - this team needs to get out of L1 to see it perform at it's best. Nothing else matters this season.

 

Absolutely spot on! We are just so much better than L1 - and yesterday proved that. Nothing else matters.

[dubai_phil]

Big lesson from the match, keep an eye on the amount of beer drunk by your GF if in the pub absorbed in a game... She's still hung over two days after

 

We learnt that PL reserves have just a couple of inches of extra pace on the ball, hence so many mis-timed tackles (not defending the referee in the 2nd half BUT TV here did show it)

 

We learnt that we are a good footballing side and that when he has time on the ball MS is class.

 

We learnt that Harding & Butterfield are much better FB's than we give them credit for and have seen in a Saints shirt for a few years.

 

We do not need to fear anyone IF we approach a game with energy & vision.

 

PL teams will always convert chances to goals better than lower league opposition.

 

We feel good and confident and now have to add the focus to go onto the pitch in our away games with that battling approach to "Win the right to play football"

 

We also learnt that, yes, on balance it WAS good that we had the distraction of a big cup tie, but that we await with some concern whether we can take it forward into the game tomorrow

[Whitey Grandad]

We learnt that PL reserves have just a couple of inches of extra pace on the ball, hence so many mis-timed tackles (not defending the referee in the 2nd half BUT TV here did show it)

That's true, but it doesn't explain why our players were barged off the ball and go nothing from Atkinson. I've since watched the match on a TV recording and it's amazing how misleading a picture it can give. Many of our 'mistimed tackles' were in fact nicking the ball away before touching the player. Nani didn't help by flinging himself to the floor at the mere appearance of any opposition.

[Whitey Grandad]

hah lol yeah I can see the half time team talK

 

Nige - "well done lads good half I think we've proved we're better than Man U. Now go out there and lose this match we have more important things to worry about than beating Man U"

 

I think it's more of a psychological thing in that subconsciously the club and the players weren't too bothered about going through to the next round. Indeed, neither were the fans.

[Window Cleaner]

Absolutely spot on! We are just so much better than L1 - and yesterday proved that. Nothing else matters.

 

Except that getting out of League 1 isn't just about being a class above everybody else, it's about scoring goals from all of those

chances your fabulous(well by League 1 standards) midfield creates. Looked at Huddersfield yesterday and they were roughly the same in the second half but Pilkington to me looked by far superior to AOC.. same boots though..

[hughieslastminutegoal]

We HAVEN'T created fewer chances. If we had, then I would agree with you that Lallanas absence was having an effect, but as I said you cannot possibly believe that him being on the pitch automatically makes everyone else better finishers - that's a ridiculous notion.

Tranmere loss 2-0; 15 shots on goal

Oldham won 6-0; 14 shots on goal.

But those figures are not enough. It's how good the opportunities are that matters.

Maybe the Oldham chances were just more clearcut?

[Turkish]

But those figures are not enough. It's how good the opportunities are that matters.

Maybe the Oldham chances were just more clearcut?

 

It does matter according to some on here, if Lallana had been playing if we had shot from 3 yards or 30 yards they would go in, simply because he is on the pitch.