University Graduates and Unemployment

[Window Cleaner]

1 in 5 in excess of 2 years unemployed, surely that can't be, what do they teach in those jumped up tech colleges nowadays then?

 

I mean if it costs 6000£ a year for 3 years and you can't get a decent job at the end of it then most of those degrees are a waste of time surely.

 

When I was at Uni the employers came round to the faculties and fought amongst themselves to hire graduates.Then again 2% of the populace went to University, the rest did HNDs and City and Guilds.

Edited 27 January, 2011 by Window Cleaner

[Smirking_Saint]

1 in 5 in excess of 2 years unemployed, surely that can't be, what do they teach in those jumped up tech colleges nowadays then?

I mean if it costs 6000£ a year for 3 years and you can't get a decent job at the end of it then most of those degrees are a waste of time surely.

 

When I was at Uni the employers came round to the faculties and fought amongst themselves to hire graduates.Then again 2% of the populace went to University, the rest did HNDs and City and Guilds.

 

Correct

[Window Cleaner]

Correct

 

If I remember right you went about it in a different way, job first higher education afterwards within the structure of your job, is that right?

[buctootim]

If 20% of graduates can't a job then most degrees (>50%) are a waste of time. Clearly you didnt waste three years at £6,000pa.

[Window Cleaner]

If 20% of graduates can't a job then most degrees (>50%) are a waste of time. Clearly you didnt waste three years at £6,000pa.

 

Nope they gave me money to go there when I was a pup.The tuition was free and you got a grant of sorts which your parents had to supplement or not according to their status.

[buctootim]

Thats what I got too. The numbers going to university were a lot less then and graduates were sought after by employers. Yes I agree too many people go to university and not enough value is attached to vocational courses and qualifications.

[Smirking_Saint]

If I remember right you went about it in a different way, job first higher education afterwards within the structure of your job, is that right?

 

I took a technical job that i had to be at a certain level to join, i sort of wasn't quite up to the level they needed but aced the aptitude and interview so they took me on.

 

Part of taking the job was that i had to do a university degree as part of the training, like a sort of advanced apprenticeship. Funnily enough i got my original HNC through an earlier apprenticeship.

 

IMO thats the best way to go, they fund you through your education as well as on job training and experience which is what gets you jobs as far as i am concerned. Problem with University degrees these days are they are 10 to the pound and so have been so watered down to the point of being pointless for companies.

 

Degrees SHOULD be elitist.

[Smirking_Saint]

Thats what I got too. The numbers going to university were a lot less then and graduates were sought after by employers. Yes I agree too many people go to university and not enough value is attached to vocational courses and qualifications.

 

Due to the degredation of the education system i strongly believe their should be an option for latter school kids (years 10-11) to take an apprenticeship on instead of doing GCSE's they may fail at or not really be interested in when they could be gripped and interested (and bettered) by an MA.

[buctootim]

Due to the degredation of the education system i strongly believe their should be an option for latter school kids (years 10-11) to take an apprenticeship on instead of doing GCSE's they may fail at or not really be interested in when they could be gripped and interested (and bettered) by an MA.

 

I left school at 15 (because my birthdays isnt until August) in the main because the style of teaching was so academic and dry I was bored ****less and could rarely see what practical use it would be. As a result I was also a mildly disruptive pupil. My first job was a technician in a lab developing specialist glues for industry. All of a sudden I could see why you might actually want to know how to calculate viscosity or what the dessication rate of a sample might be. The TEC chemistry course (replacement for ONC /OND) I did on day release was great too - they used real world examples to solve real world problems - fractional distillation of crude oil; aluminium smelting etc rather than the abstract ones at O level which all seemed to be about remembering formulas without telling you why.

 

For some kids who are more practically minded or just sick of desk bsed education, a spell working, getting an interest in a job learning the basics and then going back to college later to learn the science might be a much more productive way to go. It worked for me, giving me some direction and re-enthusing me about learning. I ended up going to university as a mature student at 24 and got much more out of it.

Edited 27 January, 2011 by buctootim

[Smirking_Saint]

I left school at 15 (because my birthdays isnt until August) in the main because the style of teaching was so academic and dry I was bored ****less and could rarely see what practical use it would be. As a result I was also a mildly disruptive pupil. My first job was a technician in a lab developing specialist glues for industry. All of a sudden I could see why you might actually want to know how to calculate viscosity or what the dessication rate of a sample might be. The TEC chemistry course (replacement for ONC /OND) I did on day release was great too - they used real world examples to solve real world problems - fractional distillation of crude oil; aluminium smelting etc rather than the abstract ones at O level which all seemed to be about remembering formulas without telling you why.

 

For some kids who are sick of education or cant see the point of it, a spell working, getting an interest in a job learning the basics and then going back to college later to learn the science might be a much more productive way to go. It worked or me, ended up going to university as a mature student at 24 and got much more out of it.

 

Exactly,

 

I could imagine there would be many kids that aren't the academic types that if pulled to one side and had a chat with, explaining there probably not going to get the greatest of GCSE's would they fancy doing an apprenticeship in brickying, chippying, sparky, gas or mechanic ??

 

I would say you would get a decent take up and IMO solve alot of the issue of the workshy and under educated.

[aintforever]

It's not really the students fault that the economy is f*cked. Companies are laying people off all over the place they are not exactly going to be taking many on.

[LGTL]

Any decent apprenticeship (i.e the Esso apprenticeship) requires 5 GCSE's at grades A-C. It's all well and good doing training with any old company when you haven't even finished school, but they'll be stuck between £15,000-£20,000 for years.

[View From The Top]

Exactly,

 

I could imagine there would be many kids that aren't the academic types that if pulled to one side and had a chat with, explaining there probably not going to get the greatest of GCSE's would they fancy doing an apprenticeship in brickying, chippying, sparky, gas or mechanic ??

 

I would say you would get a decent take up and IMO solve alot of the issue of the workshy and under educated.

 

As a teacher, albeit currently in FE, that's the approach that many, many, many of us would endorse and it's the same model employed in Germany and one that I've been harking on about for years.

 

It's also why Grove's new "vision" for education is so derided by the profession.

[Smirking_Saint]

Any decent apprenticeship (i.e the Esso apprenticeship) requires 5 GCSE's at grades A-C. It's all well and good doing training with any old company when you haven't even finished school, but they'll be stuck between £15,000-£20,000 for years.

 

I turned down an esso apprenticeship, ok, as far as an AMA is concerned you are likely to be earning rubbish money for 2 years, but then if you are doing an AMA thats between the ages of 16-18 when most are in college anyways, and you contribute NOTHING to the company. After 2 years you generally are paid a decent amount and TBH i know that the Esso employees are paid a very hansome amount as i went to college with them in the end and am still in touch.

 

For example, our apprentice jointers are on about 8.5k a year for two years, then go up to about 16k and then when made up i think they are on 20-24k when fully made up. When you add to that the standby rates (call-out) that we get it is pretty much the same as adding half of your yearly salary ontop again (for average 1 night a week) some do 2 nights. I know of some that are on a basic of about 22k that will make in the 50's(k) this year.

 

I did a different course but still took a pay cut to do it, i had to go down to 16k a year, it was hard but worth it in the long run. Life is full of choices, IMO that those that make the hardest choices will generally go further.

Edited 27 January, 2011 by Smirking_Saint

[Verbal]

The problem with the hope that apprenticeships will be the answer to all ills is that whereas companies used to run these at their own expense, it's now common, if not almost universal, that companies expect the government to 'subsidise' apprenticeships schemes, so that the cheap labour becomes all but free.

 

The sponger mentality runs deep among our thrusting entrepreneurs.

[Smirking_Saint]

The problem with the hope that apprenticeships will be the answer to all ills is that whereas companies used to run these at their own expense, it's now common, if not almost universal, that companies expect the government to 'subsidise' apprenticeships schemes, so that the cheap labour becomes all but free.

 

The sponger mentality runs deep among our thrusting entrepreneurs.

 

They still spend a large amount of expense out. Yes they get money back IF the apprentice passes his apprenticeship, but in the whole they still spend on alot.

The problem is not with the spungers par se, it is with the fact that because it is so easy for anyone to get some sort of degree these days businesses have a huge pool to delve in a look into, which has its negatives aswell as a degree is not elite anymore it is open to everyone which IMO is wrong.

[Johnny Bognor]

The sponger mentality runs deep among our thrusting entrepreneurs.

 

Yep, they are such a drain on society

 

Do away with them all I say (Obviously ignoring that they are the best hope of saving this once great nation)

Edited 27 January, 2011 by Johnny Bognor

[swannymere]

I have no problem with people getting degrees and then finding they can't find employment, it does not mean you sit on your arse waiting for the right job to come along, you find whatever earns some money and continue to apply for the job you really want. If i was an employer i would take somebody willing to graft over soembody prepared to wait for the 'correct' job to come up.

[Berkshire Saint]

I finished University in June and graduated in July (got a 2.1 in History and Politics from University of Sheffield) and bar a couple of days a week in my dad's office during the summer (finished that in September) and the odd bar shift at my cricket club, I haven't worked since. A lot of mates I graduated with are struggling too and most of the ones who are working are doing things like bar work or working in shops to keep themselves going. There really isn't a lot out there at the moment, hopefully have a couple of things lined up in the near future though.

[Shandy_Top_89]

Finished Uni in May (got a 2.1 at Chichester in History and Media Studies - LET THE FLAMES BEGIN!) have worked part time at Beaulieu since (summer wasnt terrible working about 40-50 hours per week, but of course its seasonal and im getting bugger all now due to the Motor Museum being shut for referb). Of course I dont intend to be stuck like this forever, I was intending to make a gap year of it and have spent 6 weeks abroad in this time. Due to circumstances beyond my control all my plans fell through and im stuck at home a hell of a lot.

 

I have applied to do primary teacher training and to a number of graduate management schemes but none start until September which is a long wait. So its a case of getting work experience in at the moment, unfortunetly a lot of that is unpaid : /. I couldnt have applied to do teacher training or graduate schemes without a degree.

 

Random bit of info: out of 4 of my housemates that graduated in May 2010 only 1 has a full time job.

[BadgerBadger]

I don't get doing a degree unless it's for a valid outcome. A degree in computer science/mechanical engineering/chemistry/law etc has a basis for employment but degress in art/history/humanties/politics surely narrow the field somewhat.

 

BTW I'm not belittling your achievement BS

[Doctoroncall]

When I was at school, there was a european convention of youth and I was lucky enough to represent the school and go to Germany. It was interesting that over there they had two streams at school after the equivalent 'O' levels - vocational and academic so there was a clear direction to choose, none of this must go to Uni for everything. That was 20 odd years ago and it's still going, while the unions and Thatcher decimated the apprentice system and only now are there plans to fill the vocational stream void.

[Verbal]

Yep, they are such a drain on society

 

Do away with them all I say (Obviously ignoring that they are the best hope of saving this once great nation)

 

Yes they are a drain - a very severe one. PFI companies raking in huge contracts and defaulting; pharmaceutical companies vastly overcharging the NHS (ie us); defence contractors ripping us off to the tune of billions PER CONTRACT; multinationals moving HQs and money offshore every five minutes to evade paying anything but the most miniscule amounts of tax; banks going bust and being rescued by taxpayers...etc, etc. God the list is endless.

 

Ethical capitalism is one of those oxymoronic pipe dreams in the modern world of the large corporation. They won't 'save this great nation' because they don't give a flying **** about this nation. National borders faded long ago in the headlong rush to bilk the British taxpayer.

[Johnny Bognor]

Yes they are a drain - a very severe one. PFI companies raking in huge contracts and defaulting; pharmaceutical companies vastly overcharging the NHS (ie us); defence contractors ripping us off to the tune of billions PER CONTRACT; multinationals moving HQs and money offshore every five minutes to evade paying anything but the most miniscule amounts of tax; banks going bust and being rescued by taxpayers...etc, etc. God the list is endless.

 

Ethical capitalism is one of those oxymoronic pipe dreams in the modern world of the large corporation. They won't 'save this great nation' because they don't give a flying **** about this nation. National borders faded long ago in the headlong rush to bilk the British taxpayer.

 

I think you are confusing entrepreneurship with large corporations and there is a big difference. Many of the companies you refer to are listed companies and are not driven by entrepreneurs. Can you name the entrepreneur that drives GSK or Lloyds Bank?

 

Entrepreneurs create businesses, which creates employment and wealth (for all). The more entrepreneurs we have, the more jobs there will be and the better off this nation will be. To bring this back to the point of the thread, with more jobs being created, there will be less of an issue with graduate unemployment.

 

Simple as that.......

Edited 28 January, 2011 by Johnny Bognor

[CB Saint]

I think that the vocational learining stream will re-emerge but not because of any government policy, but because business will realise that a lot of bright kids are not going to Uni now and will be looking for work at 18. As an example, KPMG have just launched a campaign to recruit 18yr olds to train as accountants. If this is a success then others will follow suit.

[GenevaSaint]

I think that the vocational learining stream will re-emerge but not because of any government policy, but because business will realise that a lot of bright kids are not going to Uni now and will be looking for work at 18. As an example, KPMG have just launched a campaign to recruit 18yr olds to train as accountants. If this is a success then others will follow suit.

 

Which sounds like a great move from KPMG, why goto uni if you can get AAT, CIMA or some other qualication whil working; not everyone is cut out for uni or needs to go.

 

I made my way through the jobs market through the much derided YTS scheme in the late 80's, 6 months at college and 6 months in work placement with the college working getting me a BTEC in IT and a full time job after a year with my employer.

 

The one thing I would like to know from the chaps who've recently graduated, did you do an internship with a company in the the summer of year 2? This week I was speaking to a colleague in the HR department at my company and they haven't yet filled their internships for summer 2011, which I find amazing given the difficult jobs market. Yes so it's 11 weeks unpaid but you do get travel and food costs covered, but at the end you could get a job offer or a place in the graudate program, WTF is wrong with these students graduating in 2012?

[Johnny Bognor]

The one thing I would like to know from the chaps who've recently graduated, did you do an internship with a company in the the summer of year 2? This week I was speaking to a colleague in the HR department at my company and they haven't yet filled their internships for summer 2011, which I find amazing given the difficult jobs market. Yes so it's 11 weeks unpaid but you do get travel and food costs covered, but at the end you could get a job offer or a place in the graudate program, WTF is wrong with these students graduating in 2012?

 

This is why I did a sandwich course in the eary 90's (during the last recession) and got had a full time placement for year 3 (which paid OK money). I managed to negotiate a part time role for my final year which automatically turned into a full time role on graduation.

[LGTL]

It's very true that you do need more than a degree these days. I graduated in 2009 with a 1st, but since then i've had to do unpaid work in a school, as well as in Youth Clubs etc, combined with a P/T job, in order to be accepted onto a PGCE for this September.

[Window Cleaner]

Finished Uni in May (got a 2.1 at Chichester in History and Media Studies - LET THE FLAMES BEGIN!) have worked part time at Beaulieu since (summer wasnt terrible working about 40-50 hours per week, but of course its seasonal and im getting bugger all now due to the Motor Museum being shut for referb). Of course I dont intend to be stuck like this forever, I was intending to make a gap year of it and have spent 6 weeks abroad in this time. Due to circumstances beyond my control all my plans fell through and im stuck at home a hell of a lot.

 

I have applied to do primary teacher training and to a number of graduate management schemes but none start until September which is a long wait. So its a case of getting work experience in at the moment, unfortunetly a lot of that is unpaid : /. I couldnt have applied to do teacher training or graduate schemes without a degree.

 

Random bit of info: out of 4 of my housemates that graduated in May 2010 only 1 has a full time job.

 

Hey I did a summer at the MMM between School and Uni, that would have been in about '73 then . I loved it, cleaning the cars in the morning, tour guide in the afty, balling out the punters for leaning into the old Bluebird and a big Gold coloured speedster that I

can't rember the name of. Best holiday job I ever had.

y

[Special K]

The problem with the hope that apprenticeships will be the answer to all ills is that whereas companies used to run these at their own expense, it's now common, if not almost universal, that companies expect the government to 'subsidise' apprenticeships schemes, so that the cheap labour becomes all but free.

 

The sponger mentality runs deep among our thrusting entrepreneurs.

 

This is a rather tawdry, cynical view from you, Verbal. Also, a load of old pony; check out the CITB - funded by the construction industry for the training of people within that industry.

[Shandy_Top_89]

I don't get doing a degree unless it's for a valid outcome. A degree in computer science/mechanical engineering/chemistry/law etc has a basis for employment but degress in art/history/humanties/politics surely narrow the field somewhat.

 

BTW I'm not belittling your achievement BS

 

No I quite agree, if your degree is industry specific then the chances of a quick employment increase. Also they give you certain skills that will always make you stand out.

 

However in my case when I left college I was acting under the understanding that purely having a degree would improve my chances of getting a well paid job, and it would also increase the number of jobs I could apply for. Unfortunetly my maths and sciences are atrocious which put a lot of vocational degrees out of my reach. However as I previously said I wouldnt be able to apply for further graduate schemes or teacher training without a degree in the first place, so there is still a benefit to having a degree although it has greatly reduced in importance as a qualification. Well unless you have an Oxbridge or red brick university degree.

[Berkshire Saint]

Well I have a red brick University degree but it has yet to benefit me so far, got another rejection for an internship today! I'm sure I'll be ok in the long run, it's just frustrating waiting for that first break at the moment.

 

I do think that doing a degree should be more than just for the sake of a well-paid job at the end of it though. There is merit to studying the arts and social sciences and I really enjoyed my time at University and the studying involved. Wouldn't change it for anything else. Like Shandy_Top, my sciences and to a lesser extent my maths were never good enough to do some of the courses that BadgerBadger mentions (although my dad wanted me to do law)! I also would have found all of them tediously boring! Although most chemistry (and other sciences) graduates I know struggle for employment too and the majority I know have ended up doing further study with either a Masters or working towards a PhD.

[Jimmy Gabriel's Halo]

Finished Uni in May (got a 2.1 at Chichester in History and Media Studies - LET THE FLAMES BEGIN!) have worked part time at Beaulieu since (summer wasnt terrible working about 40-50 hours per week, but of course its seasonal and im getting bugger all now due to the Motor Museum being shut for referb). Of course I dont intend to be stuck like this forever, I was intending to make a gap year of it and have spent 6 weeks abroad in this time. Due to circumstances beyond my control all my plans fell through and im stuck at home a hell of a lot.

 

I have applied to do primary teacher training and to a number of graduate management schemes but none start until September which is a long wait. So its a case of getting work experience in at the moment, unfortunetly a lot of that is unpaid : /. I couldnt have applied to do teacher training or graduate schemes without a degree.

 

Random bit of info: out of 4 of my housemates that graduated in May 2010 only 1 has a full time job.

 

No disrespect to you my friend but Chichester is NOT a University. It was always back in the day and will be, Chichester College of FE if I remember rightly. And this encapsulates the problem - too many third rate colleges suddenly becoming "Universities" just to make that last descredited so called government we had look good in terms of "University graduates". I went to Sheffield Polytechnic in the 1970's and am proud of it. Of course, that's now Hallam "University" as opposed to the proper Sheffield University. A proper University is Oxford, Cambridge, St Andrews, Sussex, Warwick, East Anglia etc etc where research of some kind is undertaken. As for your choice of degree, anything with "media" in the title is a complete waste of time and in a way I feel a sorry for your generation because you've been conned and lied to for political purposes. Nevertheless, having said all of this, I do wish you luck in your career path whatever it may be.

[Shandy_Top_89]

No disrespect to you my friend but Chichester is NOT a University. It was always back in the day and will be' date=' Chichester College of FE if I remember rightly. And this encapsulates the problem - too many third rate colleges suddenly becoming "Universities" just to make that last descredited so called government we had look good in terms of "University graduates". I went to Sheffield Polytechnic in the 1970's and am proud of it. Of course, that's now Hallam "University" as opposed to the proper Sheffield University. A proper University is Oxford, Cambridge, St Andrews, Sussex, Warwick, East Anglia etc etc where research of some kind is undertaken. As for your choice of degree, anything with "media" in the title is a complete waste of time and in a way I feel a sorry for your generation because you've been conned and lied to for political purposes. Nevertheless, having said all of this, I do wish you luck in your career path whatever it may be.[/quote']

 

I still call it a Uni, but im well aware of the difference in levels.

 

Having said that check Chichesters standings for History, its doing pretty well for itself.

 

Funnily enough my nan went to the Bishop Otter Campus at Chichester when it was an emergency teacher training college in the 1940s, so im quite familiar with the background of the place lol.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I dont know where this mad dash for University for everyone came from. When I went to school only the brightest went to Uni, therefore the degree that they ended up stood out from the crowd. Employers knew that they were the brightest and the best. The rest of us went into apprenticeships or into jobs and just got on with it.Surley the more kids that go onto to further education the more the degrees are diluted. If less people went to Uni, then we might be able to fund them or more of them out of the public finances.

 

I also wonder what happened to firms taking on apprentices to benefit the firm in the future. My eldest did an apprenticeship at Sun Seekers, funded by Sun Seekers and they've now had nearly 8 years of loyal and hard work from him. Everyone from the students to the largest Companies seem to want something for nothing nowadays when it comes to school leavers and leaving school. I just look at my mate who left school at 16 to become an apprantice plumber, in those days they weren't particulary well paid. Because of the obsession with further education less and less kids did the same, the result is, he's now making a fortune, turning down work and having 3 holidays a year. Let's get more kids into trades and less into Uni.

[Verbal]

Ok enough! Could people PLEASE stop generalising from their own tiny personal experiences - as if their lives were some kind of scientifically representative sample of the universe and everything in it.

[mcjwills]

When I was at school all I ever wanted to do was to leave, so I left school and took an apprenticeship at Fawley Power Station, after 12 years post apprenticeship experience, I noticed that a lot of the Engineers that had been to Uni were asking me on my thoughts on how to do a job, I asked why do you always ask me when your the engineer, and he replied I'm the engineer because I studied at Uni, and if you had studied for an engineering degree I could easily do his job. That started me thinking and within a year I had taken redundancy and went off to Bournemouth Uni or Wallisdown Polytechnic as Jimmy Gabriel's Halo would prefer. I took an accelerated route and passed a degree in 2 years in Engineering & Business Development, even then back in 1995, I struggled to get a full timed job so I took what I could as employers like to see that you will work at anything rather than sit on your arse waiting for that job to turn up. Getting a job is about putting yourself out there and learning how to interview, because that is an art in itself and the more you have the better you become, because you learn gradually what employers are looking for, and how to answer the questions they are asking.

 

Would I recommend apprenticeships YES every time, would I recommend a degree yes, but look at what you want to do and research where the degree you are taking will take you in the future.

[Verbal]

No disrespect to you my friend but Chichester is NOT a University. It was always back in the day and will be' date=' Chichester College of FE if I remember rightly. And this encapsulates the problem - too many third rate colleges suddenly becoming "Universities" just to make that last descredited so called government we had look good in terms of "University graduates". I went to Sheffield Polytechnic in the 1970's and am proud of it. Of course, that's now Hallam "University" as opposed to the proper Sheffield University. A proper University is Oxford, Cambridge, St Andrews, Sussex, Warwick, East Anglia etc etc where research of some kind is undertaken. As for your choice of degree, anything with "media" in the title is a complete waste of time and in a way I feel a sorry for your generation because you've been conned and lied to for political purposes. Nevertheless, having said all of this, I do wish you luck in your career path whatever it may be.[/quote']

 

The decision to convert Polys into universities was taken by John Major's government, not Tony Blair's.

[trousers]

Ok enough! Could people PLEASE stop generalising from their own tiny personal experiences - as if their lives were some kind of scientifically representative sample of the universe and everything in it.

 

Fair play for trying to reverse thousands of years of human nature via the ever powerful medium they call the SaintsWeb Forum. I wish you all the luck in the known universe (and beyond). No pressure but we're all counting on you.

 

;-)

[simo]

At least they're well versed in the life of a dole moocher ! Sit on your arse watching day time tv spending what little money you do have on drink and drugs !

[Verbal]

At least they're well versed in the life of a dole moocher ! Sit on your arse watching day time tv spending what little money you do have on drink and drugs !

 

I said STOP generalising your life to the rest of us!

[simo]

I said STOP generalising your life to the rest of us!

 

Ha ha the way my job has been lately I'm starting to wish I was on the rock and roll ! The drink and rugs i'll fess up to

[um pahars]

The Graduate figure has shown one of the highest rises of all categories, but I do think it has to be taken in context. It is in line with the overall 16-24 yo unemployment rate so it would suggest that a degree is no guarantee of future employment.

 

Just under 50% of 16-17 year olds are unemploymed, but in the 21-24 age group Graduates are still less likely to be unemployed than their peers without degrees (something like 12% v 15%), which indicates there might still be some real benefit.

 

It's a very tough market out there for jobs and the specific Graduate employment market has been hit like many other sub groups.

 

After you strip out the minority of "noddy" degrees (David Beckham's fashion course etc) and also when you accept that a number of areas are over subscribed (when I worked in TV one executive stated that as many people leave Uni each year with a Media degree as are already employed in the TV industry), I do find it strange how we as a country sometimes seem to deride education and its value to society (particularly for the future). Of course, it's not a pre requisite for success and no substitute for hard graft, but an educated workforce & society has to be an asset (even if some of the courses are a tad shallow).

 

I do think we have to look at educating & training (and the split between Uni for all and decent vocational and other training) in a new light and this does include the funding of both, but I'm not sure many other countries would see it as a negative that so many young people are continuing their educational path through University.

[benjii]

Some people just do make stupid decisions.

 

For example, the number of people with average A-Levels, an "ok" degree and completely unremarkable CVs willing to commit to paying circa £10k to complete the Legal Practice Course in search of a training contract for a job which has always historically been oversubscribed, and in a contracting economy which has been squeezed even further, is bizarre.

 

A mixture of poor and ill-informed decisions made by students exacerbated by an institutional unwillingness to recognise failure and the commoditisation of something that ought to be meritoriously elite is bound to lead to disappointment.

 

As others have said, this ought to be something that is tackled at a younger age. So long as hordes of people continue to leave school and college labouring under the weight of misinformation peddled by soft-centred imbeciles and political self-servants that a "C" or "B" grade is some sort of success, nothing will change except by Procrustean means.

[um pahars]

something that ought to be meritoriously elite is bound to lead to disappointment.

 

Roughly how elitist do you think a University Education should be???

[buctootim]

Some people just do make stupid decisions.

 

For example, the number of people with average A-Levels, an "ok" degree and completely unremarkable CVs willing to commit to paying circa £10k to complete the Legal Practice Course in search of a training contract for a job which has always historically been oversubscribed, and in a contracting economy which has been squeezed even further, is bizarre.

 

A mixture of poor and ill-informed decisions made by students exacerbated by an institutional unwillingness to recognise failure and the commoditisation of something that ought to be meritoriously elite is bound to lead to disappointment.

 

As others have said, this ought to be something that is tackled at a younger age. So long as hordes of people continue to leave school and college labouring under the weight of misinformation peddled by soft-centred imbeciles and political self-servants that a "C" or "B" grade is some sort of success, nothing will change except by Procrustean means.

 

I think Benji is trying to show us he got B+ in dictionary studies

[Verbal]

You should try logging out and looking at this thread. Every single advert is for a degree course. Ironic advertising?

[benjii]

I think Benji is trying to show us he got B+ in dictionary studies

 

Don't even get me started on Dickshunary Studies. Only one rung up from Meeja.

[benjii]

Roughly how elitist do you think a University Education should be???

 

I wouldn't try to quantify it but I think university should be for academic pursuits or vocational training that goes significantly beyond what the average person is capable of. It should be difficult to get a degree. It should be an indication that the holder of the degree is unusually bright. Currently, if you take a broad view, it is not (you can probably still rest assured that a red-brick graduate has a good level of intelligence or aptitude). And, as the process comes with potentially significant financial consequences, the commoditisation of it makes no sense. It has value over and above itself; it should be about quality, not quantity.

 

That's not to say that those who aren't academically elite should not have access to education or training after school/college but there has been a completely misguided attempt to homogenise education. It's considered a success if as many people as possible achieve A grades. That's not a success, it's a completely pyrrhic victory. It's a category error of end and means: it's classification for classification's sake. It signals the failure and the collapse of the system. It has no informative value. The point of exams, the point of assessment is to produce a result that is informative and discriminatory; one that helps people make the right choices, not one that cajoles them into a false future.

Edited 29 January, 2011 by benjii

[JustMike]

It's not really the students fault that the economy is f*cked. Companies are laying people off all over the place they are not exactly going to be taking many on.

 

this.

 

..and the fact we gave all our jobs to poland