Alan Johnson quits frontline politics

[dune]

dunce, facts are my bread and butter. I'm more concerned about the effects it will have on a generation growing up knowing that the Industrial Revolution took place between 1750-1900 yet not being taught the skills to utilise this knowledge, i.e. analysis, which the new curriculum makes no provision for.

 

That is how it should be. Children should be taught the facts, the facts and nothing but the facts. It is then up to them to think about these facts and to draw their own private conclusions. By analysing the facts people like you are able to influence how they are interpretted and given your UAF/far Left attitude you especially are not fit to mediate this.

[Verbal]

That is how it should be. Children should be taught the facts, the facts and nothing but the facts. It is then up to them to think about these facts and to draw their own private conclusions. By analysing the facts people like you are able to influence how they are interpretted and given your UAF/far Left attitude you especially are not fit to mediate this.

 

The 'fact' that you can talk so unreflexively about facts demonstrates you utter shallowness.

 

You could say: 'Iraq was invaded in 2003', but on your reasoning, no context as to why could ever be given for fear of polluting their minds - on the grounds that accounts of the causes of the war - the intentions of the American military, the economic objectives, etc, etc - are all the subject to one kind of dispute or other. If you limit 'facts' to only those events that no one could possibly dispute, you end up with a world described by a series of meaningless statements. You couldn't even present 'the world is round' as a fact because there are people who dispute it.

 

And the children in turn - because their views have to be 'private' - are prohibited from testing their arguments and conclusions against others.

 

Only in your tiny little bedroom world does any of what you say make sense.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

That is how it should be. Children should be taught the facts, the facts and nothing but the facts. It is then up to them to think about these facts and to draw their own private conclusions. By analysing the facts people like you are able to influence how they are interpretted and given your UAF/far Left attitude you especially are not fit to mediate this.

 

Oh my days, the paranoia you display is staggering! Have you been to see someone about it? Analysis is a higher level thinking skill on the Blooms taxonomy, identifying facts is at the bottom end. I think we can all see what is going to happen, a generation of young people being unable to think outside the box. All robots...sounds rather Socialist to me dunce, shouldn't you really be advocating the old curriculum?

 

What job do you actually have by the way while were judging peoples capabilities?

 

Ok dunce, you're in a classroom and are told this fact: Britain, although playing a major part in it's abolition, was a huge advocate of the slave trade which, although made Britain wealthy, caused untold suffering to generations of Africans."

 

How would you privately respond?

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

The 'fact' that you can talk so unreflexively about facts demonstrates you utter shallowness.

 

You could say: 'Iraq was invaded in 2003', but on your reasoning, no context as to why could ever be given for fear of polluting their minds - on the grounds that accounts of the causes of the war - the intentions of the American military, the economic objectives, etc, etc - are all the subject to one kind of dispute or other. If you limit 'facts' to only those events that no one could possibly dispute, you end up with a world described by a series of meaningless statements. You couldn't even present 'the world is round' as a fact because there are people who dispute it.

 

And the children in turn - because their views have to be 'private' - are prohibited from testing their arguments and conclusions against others.

 

Only in your tiny little bedroom world does any of what you say make sense.

 

Dunce and Gove the same person?

[um pahars]

I certainly think an understanding of our history, world history, culture etc and a certain number of established facts would be in "my" curriculum, but it would certainly not be back to Victorian times as Gove would appear to be saying.

 

As someone much more eloquent than me put it:

 

"Many of the facts our children will need to learn do not yet exist. The best we can do is teach them how to discover them"

 

Backed up a quote from the video "Did You Know?":

 

"the top 10 in-demand jobs in 2010 didn’t exist in 2004… We are currently preparing students for jobs that don’t yet exist… Using technologies that haven’t been invented… In order to solve problems we don’t even know are problems yet.”

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

I certainly think an understanding of our history, world history, culture etc and a certain number of established facts would be in "my" curriculum, but it would certainly not be back to Victorian times as Gove would appear to be saying.

 

As someone much more eloquent than me put it:

 

"Many of the facts our children will need to learn do not yet exist. The best we can do is teach them how to discover them"

 

Backed up a quote from the video "Did You Know?":

 

"the top 10 in-demand jobs in 2010 didn’t exist in 2004… We are currently preparing students for jobs that don’t yet exist… Using technologies that haven’t been invented… In order to solve problems we don’t even know are problems yet.”

 

Don't get me wrong, facts are a necessity of history for example, but without suitable and appropriate analysis and interpretation they are worthless.

[dune]

Ok dunce, you're in a classroom and are told this fact: Britain, although playing a major part in it's abolition, was a huge advocate of the slave trade which, although made Britain wealthy, caused untold suffering to generations of Africans."

 

How would you privately respond?

 

It was necessary for the advancement of British interests in the colonies which had a direct influence on the affluence of the mother country and our ability to defend ourselves from invasion from Napoleon.

[dune]

Don't get me wrong, facts are a necessity of history for example, but without suitable and appropriate analysis and interpretation they are worthless.

 

This is where you are wrong, and you showing yourself up in your true Socialist colours. The interpretation of history should always be a personal matter, and not for people like you to influence. Take colonial Africa as an example. My interpreation would be completely different to yours.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

This is where you are wrong, and you showing yourself up in your true Socialist colours. The interpretation of history should always be a personal matter, and not for people like you to influence. Take colonial Africa as an example. My interpreation would be completely different to yours.

 

Yes but there is this remarkable thing called 'evidence'. This is what we use to prove we are right: You make your point and you analyse that point using evidence and conclude if it is correct or not. No matter how hard you try dune you will never ever 'out do' me with regards to the study and application of history. Until you show me your PhD that is.

[dune]

Yes but there is this remarkable thing called 'evidence'. This is what we use to prove we are right: You make your point and you analyse that point using evidence and conclude if it is correct or not. No matter how hard you try dune you will never ever 'out do' me with regards to the study and application of history. Until you show me your PhD that is.

 

I will always 'out do you' because I am right and I understand the subject and how it should be taught. Your biggest achiles heel is your attitude problem and big headedness. You think you know it all, but you don't even get the basics. History can teach us a lot, but only if it is taught properly in the way Michael Gove is advocating i.e give the facts and allow students to privately come to their own conclusions of the rights and wrongs. You are not an authority on any area of the subject and from your contributions on here I can say with confidence that you never will be. To be able to guide and analyse history requres a balanced approach and a UAF/far Left supporter can never give this.

[um pahars]

Don't get me wrong, facts are a necessity of history for example, but without suitable and appropriate analysis and interpretation they are worthless.

 

Indeed and I agree with you.

 

Gove just seems to be saying what he thinks Daily Mail readers would like to hear. All spin, but no substance.

[um pahars]

I will always 'out do you' because I am right and I understand the subject and how it should be taught.

 

Without being too harsh, I would venture that the high opinion in which you hold yourself is not mirrored in the real world.

 

HTH.

 

To be able to guide and analyse history requres a balanced approach and a UAF/far Left supporter can never give this.

 

I would suggest that it is eminently possible to act professionally and honourably in the Teaching profession and adopt a fair and balanced approach, no matter what your political leaning. Just as i would say the same for many other professions (inc Police Force, Civil Servants, judiciary). Please don't judge everyone by your own rather low standards.

[dune]

Indeed and I agree with you.

 

Gove just seems to be saying what he thinks Daily Mail readers would like to hear. All spin, but no substance.

 

I have only recent started buying the Daily Mail (previously I was a staunch Express reader) and you are spot on - he is saying the right things. Whether there is any substance to his words only time will tell, but if he is sucessful it will improve education in this country. I would also like to see GCSE examinations made less easy. Every year they are made easier which looks good for politicians, but it isn't in the interests of students to earn dumbed down qualifications.

[dune]

I would suggest that it is eminently possible to act professionally and honourably in the Teaching profession and adopt a fair and balanced approach, no matter what your political leaning.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. My view is that secondary school history teachers are not qualified to analyse the subject and impart their slant on it. I think it flies in the face of learning to allow them to influence impressionable youngsters. Such analysis should be saved for universities imo. By allowing secondary school teachers to mediate in an analytical discussion you are essentially promoting them to the level of a scholar which is way above their understanding of a broad subject in which they have only a basic knowledge.

Edited 23 January, 2011 by dune

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. My view is that secondary school history teachers are not qualified to analyse the subject and impart their slant on it. I think it flies in the face of learning to allow them to influence impressionable youngsters. Such analysis should be saved for universities imo.

 

A man with a HND vs a man with a Masters in Historical Studies. I'll leave the good members of the TSW to come to their own conclusions.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

I will always 'out do you' because I am right and I understand the subject and how it should be taught. Your biggest achiles heel is your attitude problem and big headedness.

 

The more educated amongst us will see the irony in this statement.

[LGTL]

And that HND was probably dumbed down too...

[um pahars]

and you are spot on - he is saying the right things.

 

You may have misread my post as I did not suggest that he was saying the right things. Instead I am suggesting he is saying the things he thinks "Middle England" and Daily Mail readers would like to hear.

 

He is falling in to the same trap that befell Labour in that soundbites, spin and no substance and fawning to an expectant audience will only end in tears. Scratch beneath the surface and there is nothing there. Gove is quick to make these sweeping generalisations and very slow to substantiate them.

 

I'm still trying to get my head around just PC nonsense he believes needs to be weeded out, Can you help?

[um pahars]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. My view is that secondary school history teachers are not qualified to analyse the subject and impart their slant on it. I think it flies in the face of learning to allow them to influence impressionable youngsters. Such analysis should be saved for universities imo. By allowing secondary school teachers to mediate in an analytical discussion you are essentially promoting them to the level of a scholar which is way above their understanding of a broad subject in which they have only a basic knowledge.

 

Well someone needs to be teaching history to these 16 year olds or else they won't get on the EB tables.

 

What would be your minimum qualification for a History Teacher in a secondary school and what would they be doing with their students?

 

I have to say that I find your views on education to be as suprficial as Gove's.

[dune]

A man with a HND vs a man with a Masters in Historical Studies. I'll leave the good members of the TSW to come to their own conclusions.

 

The conclusion I have is that your qualification that is suitable for teaching facts, but it doesn't qaulify you to give opinions on the facts. Your knowledge is very broad and but very thin - would you agree?

[dune]

Well someone needs to be teaching history to these 16 year olds or else they won't get on the EB tables.

 

What would be your minimum qualification for a History Teacher in a secondary school and what would they be doing with their students?

 

I have to say that I find your views on education to be as suprficial as Gove's.

 

I have already said that people like TLS are fine teaching from text books, but that is the extent of their ability. They are not experts or scholars in specific areas to enable them to be authroties able to offer analysis or guidance. Michael Gove is absolutely right in what he's trying to do IMO. Teachers should be there to the teach facts, not to interpret them.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

The conclusion I have is that your qualification that is suitable for teaching facts, but it doesn't qaulify you to give opinions on the facts. Your knowledge is very broad and but very thin - would you agree?

 

Sorry dune, I don't. Simply because you cannot obtain A-level, let alone degree or postgraduate qualification without being able to analyse and come to correct conclusions.

[dune]

I'm still trying to get my head around just PC nonsense he believes needs to be weeded out, Can you help?

 

I think this relates to the analysis issue in subjects such as History. Clearly you could get a leftie teacher interpreting events to suit his agenda, or you could get another teacher interpreting events in a PC way because he feels this is what is expected of him. By modernising teaching and only allowing teachers to teach the facts you are dealing with this problem.

[LGTL]

I think this relates to the analysis issue in subjects such as History. Clearly you could get a leftie teacher interpreting events to suit his agenda, or you could get another teacher interpreting events in a PC way because he feels this is what is expected of him. By modernising teaching and only allowing teachers to teach the facts you are dealing with this problem.

 

So we get a generation of children who are only able to recite key dates and "facts", without having any knowledge whatsoever on how to analyse and interpret them? There was me thinking we wanted to get away from creating robots. It also sets them up for a massive fail when going on to study at a higher level.

[dune]

Sorry dune, I don't. Simply because you cannot obtain A-level, let alone degree or postgraduate qualification without being able to analyse and come to correct conclusions.

 

And who is to say the conclusion you come to is correct or incorrect?

 

That is point in all of this and is why I know you will never be competent in the subject because you don't get it.

[dune]

So we get a generation of children who are only able to recite key dates and "facts", without having any knowledge whatsoever on how to analyse and interpret them? There was me thinking we wanted to get away from creating robots. It also sets them up for a massive fail when going on to study at a higher level.

 

No it doesn't because any student interested in the subject will take in the facts and do extra research and will form their own opinions - that is healthy. What isn't healthy is students being taught facts and then told what to think about them - that breeds robots.

[badgerx16]

In the case of Socialism and Socialist ideologies doing the exact opposite is the right thing to do.

 

socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom. Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say. Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely. No socialist system can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance

 

Winston Churchill.

 

What hapened to WSC in the 1945 election ?

Edited 23 January, 2011 by badgerx16

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

And who is to say the conclusion you come to is correct or incorrect?

 

That is point in all of this and is why I know you will never be competent in the subject because you don't get it.

 

I've already answered this you cretin. It's called evidence. Give up dune, you're starting to look silly.

[badgerx16]

I've already answered this you cretin. It's called evidence. Give up dune, you're starting to look silly.

Starting ?

[dune]

I've already answered this you cretin. It's called evidence. Give up dune, you're starting to look silly.

 

So was the British Empire generally good or generally bad for Africa?

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

So was the British Empire generally good or generally bad for Africa?

 

I don't have time to answer this in any real depth this second. Give me a couple of days and I'll get back to you. My initial hunch will be that it was bad for them and good for us. But I won't venture a definitive answer now.

[dune]

I don't have time to answer this in any real depth this second. Give me a couple of days and I'll get back to you. My initial hunch will be that it was bad for them and good for us. But I won't venture a definitive answer now.

 

This is my speicialist subject so you could be in trouble.

[View From The Top]

Does Stanley understand that a good History degree is well regarded by employers as gradutes have had to develop good analytical skills and the weighing up of evidence?

 

At uni those skills gained at A level are honed but at A level this skills will already need to be in place and that is what is taught in schools.

 

The ability to "think" has been given such prominence hence the introduction of Functional Skills into the NC and all 14-19 tier learning, with cross party, cross Union and cross business support.

 

For those who don't know about F/S I suggest you read up on them and you'll see how the government/business/FE are at odds with Stanleys simplistic and ill informed position.

[dune]

Does Three Lions understand that the point i'm making is that secondary school teachers aren't qualified to influence historical interpretation?

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Does Three Lions understand that the point i'm making is that secondary school teachers aren't qualified to influence historical interpretation?

 

Dune, you're going round in circles. You need to remember that my interpretations would be influenced by the historians I've read/studied. Now if for a second you believe you know more than the likes of Thompson, Marwick, Keegan and Ferguson then any credibility you have left would immediately evaporate.

[solentstars]

The 'fact' that you can talk so unreflexively about facts demonstrates you utter shallowness.

 

You could say: 'Iraq was invaded in 2003', but on your reasoning, no context as to why could ever be given for fear of polluting their minds - on the grounds that accounts of the causes of the war - the intentions of the American military, the economic objectives, etc, etc - are all the subject to one kind of dispute or other. If you limit 'facts' to only those events that no one could possibly dispute, you end up with a world described by a series of meaningless statements. You couldn't even present 'the world is round' as a fact because there are people who dispute it.

 

And the children in turn - because their views have to be 'private' - are prohibited from testing their arguments and conclusions against others.

 

Only in your tiny little bedroom world does any of what you say make sense.

 

at last you have got the measure of the dreamer and fantasise.

[Saintandy666]

So, Dune... as an expert on the current curriculum, can you tell me which parts are biased? And also, how?

[Deppo]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. My view is that secondary school history teachers are not qualified to analyse the subject and impart their slant on it.

 

This coming from the man that suggested that there was no need to look at academic research to find out about history. Tell me, will the history you propose to be taught be discerned from the stuff that you "just know because it happened"? I am quite excited by this prospect.

 

dune, you are a walking contradiction of yourself at all times. I love watching you on here. Please never, ever leave or gain a sense of self-awareness.

[Deppo]

So, Dune... as an expert on the current curriculum, can you tell me which parts are biased? And also, how?

 

Don't be lazy. Do your own research and become an expert like dune. The Daily Mail only costs 50p and is full of all the facts that you need. Bloody lazy leftie, expecting everything done for you.

[Saintandy666]

Don't be lazy. Do your own research and become an expert like dune. The Daily Mail only costs 50p and is full of all the facts that you need. Bloody lazy leftie, expecting everything done for you.

 

I do love how Dune thinks he is more knowledgable on history than people who have degrees in it and have spent their lives dedicated to finding out what really happened. He just wants everyone to be taught the 'dune version of history' rather than the truth.

 

'THE BRITISH EMPIRE ONLY DID GOOD' just about sums it up.

[Deppo]

I tell you, text book solipsist. With a mote beam mechanism problem thrown in. Which, of course, accounts for the massive lack of self-awareness and the inability to see the massive flaws in what he says and the idiotic way he says them. And the fact that everyone is laughing at him. Like I say, I love him.

[solentstars]

Don't be lazy. Do your own research and become an expert like dune. The Daily Mail only costs 50p and is full of all the facts that you need. Bloody lazy leftie, expecting everything done for you.

 

blimey 50 p for the mail,its got to be the cheapest toilet paper on the market,

[solentstars]

I do love how Dune thinks he is more knowledgable on history than people who have degrees in it and have spent their lives dedicated to finding out what really happened. He just wants everyone to be taught the 'dune version of history' rather than the truth.

 

'THE BRITISH EMPIRE ONLY DID GOOD' just about sums it up.

 

care in the community has alot to answer for

[Deppo]

This is my speicialist subject so you could be in trouble.

 

Could you please post everything you know on the subject here for me? Thanks. I await with interest.

[View From The Top]

Dune, you're going round in circles. You need to remember that my interpretations would be influenced by the historians I've read/studied. Now if for a second you believe you know more than the likes of Thompson, Marwick, Keegan and Ferguson then any credibility you have left would immediately evaporate.

 

Or that history teachers have history degrees and have been trained to allow young folk to think for themselves and draw conclusions from the evidence they find.

 

Never met a history teacher with anything less than a 2:1 in history so I guess they're slightly more qualified than Stanley. Come to think of it, our history dept has nothing less than a MA in it as well as a PhD, all, oddly enough, in history. Best qualified dept in the whole organisation I believe.

 

Teaching dates and facts is all well and good and there is a place for it, as almost all agree I think, but the who/where/when & why are all important (especially with a F/S curriculum leaders hat on) not just the who/where/when.

[Johnny Bognor]

Look at the my qualification is bigger then your qualification brigade.

 

A qualification is a badge which proves you can learn, but does not automatically make you an expert or inteligent. There are many people without degrees who are still intelligent. The intellectual snobbery (particuarly from the lefties) is rather lacking in class.

 

I have a Business Studies degree and I can honestly say, hand on heart, that a barrow boy from your local market has a better understanding of supply/demand or cash flow than any average Business Studies graduate. Most of what I know about business was not learned in a class room, but from real experiences and I have the scars on my back to prove it. These scars are worth far more than a bit of paper that I managed to achieve 20 years ago.

[Deppo]

Look at the my qualification is bigger then your qualification brigade.

 

A qualification is a badge which proves you can learn, but does not automatically make you an expert or inteligent. There are many people without degrees who are still intelligent. The intellectual snobbery (particuarly from the lefties) is rather lacking in class.

 

I have a Business Studies degree and I can honestly say, hand on heart, that a barrow boy from your local market has a better understanding of supply/demand or cash flow than any average Business Studies graduate. Most of what I know about business was not learned in a class room, but from real experiences and I have the scars on my back to prove it. These scars are worth far more than a bit of paper that I managed to achieve 20 years ago.

 

Brilliant.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Look at the my qualification is bigger then your qualification brigade.

 

A qualification is a badge which proves you can learn, but does not automatically make you an expert or inteligent. There are many people without degrees who are still intelligent. The intellectual snobbery (particuarly from the lefties) is rather lacking in class.

 

I have a Business Studies degree and I can honestly say, hand on heart, that a barrow boy from your local market has a better understanding of supply/demand or cash flow than any average Business Studies graduate. Most of what I know about business was not learned in a class room, but from real experiences and I have the scars on my back to prove it. These scars are worth far more than a bit of paper that I managed to achieve 20 years ago.

 

Hilarious. Well done you.

[Johnny Bognor]

Actually, it really bugs me.

 

These so called intellectual lefties despise the snobbery from the upper classes (or wealthier classes), yet they look down their educated noses at other people in the same way and like to rub it in. I think it is disgusting and shows them up for the green eyed hypocrites they really are. Not made it in life and so they have to make themselves feel better about themselves by comparing their academic trophies.

 

Bloody pathetic if you ask me.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Actually, it really bugs me.

 

These so called intellectual lefties despise the snobbery from the upper classes (or wealthier classes), yet they look down their educated noses at other people in the same way and like to rub it in. I think it is disgusting and shows them up for the green eyed hypocrites they really are. Not made it in life and so they have to make themselves feel better about themselves by comparing their academic trophies.

 

Bloody pathetic if you ask me.

 

Another ****ing "I've been grafting since I was five and the world still hasn't repaid me" post.

 

Dune is thick, it is as simple as that. Even if he was educated to the same level I would still call him thick.

 

I'm proud of my academic achievements as I've worked ****ing hard to get them. Unlike you though I don't think the world owes me squat.