PokingFun Posted 20 January, 2011 Posted 20 January, 2011 Despite the phenomenal amount of criticism you get Alpine, I often find myself agreeing with many threads, (maybe I don't always lecture people in such direct terms as you do on occasions) however, . it may be semantics but whether we buy -or not- isn't just down to our optimistic / pessimistic natures. I prefer to think of it as being ...realistic....sh*t happens and often at the most unexpected times. Buying in more talent is an insurance policy. Look at our purchase of Richardson, arguably the best rught back available at the time, we buy him and he is injured in the first practice and out for nearly three months. When Lallana was out in August , we went 5games without even scoring ..coincidence?. Barnard (present legal problems aside) got MOM rave reviews at the start of season without even scoring, then red-carded and out another 3 games. and then it wasn't until the away game at Notts County that he started getting goals. We cannot afford major problems like those to occur again when we are on thr run-in for promotion, or some extra play-off games. On this I agree with you, those who describe themselves as "optimists " live in a world where no-one gets injured, red carded or loses form--even if they rightly say - we have a good squad - on paper. The reality is : no-one buys a house or a car - without getting insurance. Buying now is insurance against the unexpected, not just getting second-rate reserves to sit on the bench. But what if the insurance being purchased is not fit for purpose? i.e. We buy an insurance policy to cover for these POTENTIAL eventualities but the cover bought does not adequately replace the element of risk we might lose or is so expensive that it does not offer good value for money ...... buying insurance for the sake of it is never a good thing. All well and good if we buy a midfielder that will improve us now (or at least improve the squad now) but buying one "just in case" an injury crisis occurs is both expensive and foolish in my opinion as there remains loan options if a crisis occurs.
PokingFun Posted 20 January, 2011 Posted 20 January, 2011 Coming from the man that repeats the same old sh*t every transfer window. It's a shame the transfer window only has 11 days to run, but the good news is we'll only have 5 months to wait until we can do it all again and that one lasts for 3 months :-) I am sure there will be a few draws or losses along they way though so everytime it happens you can say "i told you so", there is always something to look forward to in the world of Internet football forums. And if we haven't signed anyone on the first day / week or so of that window then there will be troubled times ahead I tell thee ..... ;-)
Saint Fan CaM Posted 20 January, 2011 Posted 20 January, 2011 Why do some posters keep on saying we've got reserves? We don't. The strategy now is to have a squad of players that can rotate in and out of the 1st team such that there is no adverse effect on performance. Add to this the fact that our two most influential NEW signings - Guly and Chaplow - have improved the 1st team by their presence - i.e. the benchmark for team performance has increased. Now think back to the Notts Co. game and how Chaplow and Lallana were missed so much in terms of creativity and being able to unlock the defence. Now ask yourself the question - did the players rotating in maintain the same level of 1st team quality? The simple answer is no, therefore one has to rightly question the strength in depth to enable CERTAIN promotion and then an ability to compete in the NCP with the same team. IMO we have sorted out one priority by signing Guly permanently, but we still need another creative central/wide midfielder who can replace either Lallana or Chaplow without a corresponding dip in performance. And before Turkish jumps down my throat - YES, I would expect that player to be competing week in week out for a 1st team start.
Dig Dig Posted 20 January, 2011 Posted 20 January, 2011 Why do some posters keep on saying we've got reserves? We don't. The strategy now is to have a squad of players that can rotate in and out of the 1st team such that there is no adverse effect on performance. Add to this the fact that our two most influential NEW signings - Guly and Chaplow - have improved the 1st team by their presence - i.e. the benchmark for team performance has increased. Now think back to the Notts Co. game and how Chaplow and Lallana were missed so much in terms of creativity and being able to unlock the defence. Now ask yourself the question - did the players rotating in maintain the same level of 1st team quality? The simple answer is no, therefore one has to rightly question the strength in depth to enable CERTAIN promotion and then an ability to compete in the NCP with the same team. IMO we have sorted out one priority by signing Guly permanently, but we still need another creative central/wide midfielder who can replace either Lallana or Chaplow without a corresponding dip in performance. And before Turkish jumps down my throat - YES, I would expect that player to be competing week in week out for a 1st team start. What players could we sign who can compete with Chaplow and Lallana (both of at least higher end NPC level) for starting places but who will most likely have to ultimately be happy with a place on the bench when both return from their injuries?
verlaine1979 Posted 20 January, 2011 Posted 20 January, 2011 but we still need another creative central/wide midfielder who can replace either Lallana or Chaplow without a corresponding dip in performance. And before Turkish jumps down my throat - YES, I would expect that player to be competing week in week out for a 1st team start. This is an utterly unrealistic proposition. I can't think of a single instance of a team's best player having a non-first team counterpart of equivalent quality just sitting on the bench. When teams lose their best player for whatever reason, they struggle to replace them and often their performance drops - this is as true of Real Madrid as it is of Southampton.
Window Cleaner Posted 20 January, 2011 Posted 20 January, 2011 This is an utterly unrealistic proposition. I can't think of a single instance of a team's best player having a non-first team counterpart of equivalent quality just sitting on the bench. When teams lose their best player for whatever reason, they struggle to replace them and often their performance drops - this is as true of Real Madrid as it is of Southampton. We already have Barnard wasting away on our bench anyway.
david in sweden Posted 20 January, 2011 Author Posted 20 January, 2011 I wrote the #1 item on this thread on Tuesday morning....a lot of people have criticised the post, though a few have agreed with it. Whether you agree..or not... I offer this extra comment quoted from todays Saints OS. QUOTE : ..it's not just about 11 players its about dealing with injuries, the suspensions and importantly... the dip in form. We've got good competition for places which in turn creates high standards on the training ground, so people are pushing to be involved... End of QUOTE. Nigel Adkins SFC 20 january 2011 I don't believe that he's been reading this thread but as I got it right for once ..I rest my case. David in Sweden.
doddisalegend Posted 20 January, 2011 Posted 20 January, 2011 I wrote the #1 item on this thread on Tuesday morning....a lot of people have criticised the post, though a few have agreed with it. Whether you agree..or not... I offer this extra comment quoted from todays Saints OS. QUOTE : ..it's not just about 11 players its about dealing with injuries, the suspensions and importantly... the dip in form. We've got good competition for places which in turn creates high standards on the training ground, so people are pushing to be involved... End of QUOTE. Nigel Adkins SFC 20 january 2011 I don't believe that he's been reading this thread but as I got it right for once ..I rest my case. David in Sweden. That is in the present tense i.e. We already have good competition for places and have delt with the injuries,suspensions and dips in form by rotating our squad. That statement doesn't come across as Nigel saying we need to sign more players becuase Lamberts form has dipped (although Nigel hasn't dropped him once that I can think of so it's debatable) and Adam is out for a couple of weeks. I don't see how that statement supports your theroy we need extra players to cover an impending glut of injuries and suspensions at all. I think prehaps your case isn't that rested after all........
NickG Posted 20 January, 2011 Posted 20 January, 2011 so Lallana in training today....not out for the season but one game?
alpine_saint Posted 20 January, 2011 Posted 20 January, 2011 so Lallana in training today....not out for the season but one game? Really ? Excellent news if true, very relieved. But lets see the Tranmere team sheet before hanging out the bunting.
david in sweden Posted 20 January, 2011 Author Posted 20 January, 2011 That is in the present tense i.e. We already have good competition for places and have delt with the injuries,suspensions and dips in form by rotating our squad. That statement doesn't come across as Nigel saying we need to sign more players becuase Lamberts form has dipped (although Nigel hasn't dropped him once that I can think of so it's debatable) and Adam is out for a couple of weeks. I don't see how that statement supports your theroy we need extra players to cover an impending glut of injuries and suspensions at all. I think prehaps your case isn't that rested after all........ well at least we've got one signing ... now that Guly is permanent. let's wait and see about anymore - shall we ?
Turkish Posted 20 January, 2011 Posted 20 January, 2011 well at least we've got one signing ... now that Guly is permanent. let's wait and see about anymore - shall we ? I think we should make a triple swoop for 3 Dagenham and Redbridge players Damien Scannell - pacy wide man Stuart Thrugood - tough tackling CM player Josh Scott - goal scoring striker, scored 4 in Daggers 6-0 win over Morecombe All 3 are ideal signings as league one 4th choice cover players. Experienced league one player and the bonus that they wont expect to play to much and will cover the positions we need strengthening in. They'd probably be delighted just to be here. We could probably get them for £100k for the lot.
sadoldgit Posted 20 January, 2011 Posted 20 January, 2011 Pleased that we have tied up contracts for those already here but yes we do need more in, just as we did before Christmas.
Dig Dig Posted 20 January, 2011 Posted 20 January, 2011 Pleased that we have tied up contracts for those already here but yes we do need more in, just as we did before Christmas. Greedy git
SaintBobby Posted 21 January, 2011 Posted 21 January, 2011 I think we should make a triple swoop for 3 Dagenham and Redbridge players Damien Scannell - pacy wide man Stuart Thrugood - tough tackling CM player Josh Scott - goal scoring striker, scored 4 in Daggers 6-0 win over Morecombe All 3 are ideal signings as league one 4th choice cover players. Experienced league one player and the bonus that they wont expect to play to much and will cover the positions we need strengthening in. They'd probably be delighted just to be here. We could probably get them for £100k for the lot. Im not against this in principle actually, although I appreciate you are making a point. I dont really agree with anyone on this issue. I think our current squad is fine, and will probably win promotion. But, I do agree with Alpine that we should make signings. But I also think its true that weve made major offers, and that these offers have been rebuffed. This just goes to cost-benefit analysis. Assume we made 3 different bids to 3 different clubs for 3 different players. Assume these were at £1m each. For identified, top players who'd walk into our first team. But each time were told "nope, sorry...£2m please" and/or we think we can get the player at 6k a week, but his agent is demanding 12K a week and a big signing bonus. At some point, it isnt worth it. I think Saints have reached this point. Im happy to sign back-up squad players though. These come cheap. They wont change our season,but may end up being worth a point or three. I want a 4th string striker. It's a marginal call, but its def not a mad one.
Saint Fan CaM Posted 21 January, 2011 Posted 21 January, 2011 This is an utterly unrealistic proposition. I can't think of a single instance of a team's best player having a non-first team counterpart of equivalent quality just sitting on the bench. When teams lose their best player for whatever reason, they struggle to replace them and often their performance drops - this is as true of Real Madrid as it is of Southampton. Thats why Fabregas and Van Persie came on as subs against Leeds eh? Were they unhappy about being on the bench? It's all about changing the teams perception of what it is to be part of a successful squad where you will get to play some of the time if you train well and prove you're worth playing. The days of a bunch of lacklustre reserves that once in a while might get picked to sit on the bench is over. The days of setting a benchmark of high performance over the whole squad are here to stay at Saints thanks to NC/NA.
hutch Posted 21 January, 2011 Posted 21 January, 2011 We WILL get calls from player's agents during the last few days of the window, when they realise that the offers they were expecting from PL/nPC clubs for their players haven't materialised.
NickG Posted 21 January, 2011 Posted 21 January, 2011 Thats why Fabregas and Van Persie came on as subs against Leeds eh? Were they unhappy about being on the bench? It's all about changing the teams perception of what it is to be part of a successful squad where you will get to play some of the time if you train well and prove you're worth playing. The days of a bunch of lacklustre reserves that once in a while might get picked to sit on the bench is over. The days of setting a benchmark of high performance over the whole squad are here to stay at Saints thanks to NC/NA. being sub against CCC side in early round of FA cup while your team is hoping to win 4 top trophies bit different to being on bench for league 1!
david in sweden Posted 21 January, 2011 Author Posted 21 January, 2011 (edited) I think we should make a triple swoop for 3 Dagenham and Redbridge players Damien Scannell - pacy wide man Stuart Thrugood - tough tackling CM player Josh Scott - goal scoring striker, scored 4 in Daggers 6-0 win over Morecombe All 3 are ideal signings as league one 4th choice cover players. Experienced league one player and the bonus that they wont expect to play to much and will cover the positions we need strengthening in. They'd probably be delighted just to be here. We could probably get them for £100k for the lot. Turkish ! I can't understand your logic. on #184 and #215 ..you say we shouldn't buy for cover, and not anyone who isn't better than what we've got..now you're advocating we buy 3 players from Dagenham and Redbridge (!) ..are they really better that our existing players they would be covering ? Edited 21 January, 2011 by david in sweden
Turkish Posted 21 January, 2011 Posted 21 January, 2011 Turkish ! I can't understand your logic. on #184 and #215 ..you say we shouldn't buy for cover, and not anyone who isn't better than what we've got..now you're advocating we buy 3 players from Dagenham and Redbridge (!) ..are they really better that our existing players they would be covering ? And this is my point, these are the sort of players we can expect to get if "cover" is all we go for.
Saint Fan CaM Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 being sub against CCC side in early round of FA cup while your team is hoping to win 4 top trophies bit different to being on bench for league 1! No it's not - the situations are relatively the same...the concept at all levels is the same. If you can't see that then that's OK - it's not your fault.
david in sweden Posted 22 January, 2011 Author Posted 22 January, 2011 (edited) Thats why Fabregas and Van Persie came on as subs against Leeds eh? Were they unhappy about being on the bench? It's all about changing the teams perception of what it is to be part of a successful squad where you will get to play some of the time if you train well and prove you're worth playing. The days of a bunch of lacklustre reserves that once in a while might get picked to sit on the bench is over. The days of setting a benchmark of high performance over the whole squad are here to stay at Saints thanks to NC/NA. Exactly right! Having 12, 13, or even 16 players "good enough" to play doesn't always mean they all get on the ptch on the same day. Using them at the opportune moment is the key, and NA isn't afraid to use subs. Every game is different, bringing on young players for the last 30 mins...if you're leading 3-0 , and give them a taste of the action without running your star players into the ground for 95 mins. Mc Menemy was great at this, and the likes Steve Moran who started as a happy-go-lucky, chubby teenager played alongside the likes of Kevin Keegan, Mick Channon and David Armstrong and picked up 10-12 goals a season (once even 21) in what was yester-years Premier League (in the early 1980's). They blossom from playing amongst the regulars. If a game is too finely balanced its often better to stick with those on the park and hope for a breakthrough. Likewise putting an U18 lad as the last name of the bench, doesn't mean we're likely to use him , but is part of the in-schooling process of being with the " big boys". Injuries are a different thing, and if a key player is out, and you don't have a plan C..there's a problem, which is why players like David Connolly (when fit) can come on and win the games for you. Wenger is great with his subs. and giving van Persie a 30 min. run-out and a few goal chances against a tiring CCC side is great for the fans to see and the team to savour. Everyone has to start somewhere but putting on an untried player into a set formation serves no good purpose. It took Guly 8 games on the bench (6 times on as sub) before he found his feet and another half dozen games to start scoring and get a regular place in the start 11. Looking at his time since Sept... he's up amongst the leading scorers, and now thankfully - permanent. Edited 22 January, 2011 by david in sweden
NickG Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 No it's not - the situations are relatively the same...the concept at all levels is the same. If you can't see that then that's OK - it's not your fault. totally different b- chance to play in champions league final and premiership to miss out on starting position in fa cup 4th round replay!!!
Turkish Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 No it's not - the situations are relatively the same...the concept at all levels is the same. If you can't see that then that's OK - it's not your fault. It's totally different, it's like Saints playing Shrewbury in the FA Cup and resting Fonte, Lallana, Lambert or another key "star" player, like we did. Wenger picked a team to win the match and used their squad, that is what good managers do, the team he picked was good enough to beat Leeds relatively comfortably, why? Because he has a good, strong squad full of good players, capable of winning games without their star men. Not just significantly poorer quality cover players that only play when others above them in the pecking order get injured.
alpine_saint Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 I point everyone to Exhibit "A" - our bench today against Tranmere.
Saint_clark Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 I point everyone to Exhibit "A" - our bench today against Tranmere. It looks as if Puncheon is off. And everyone has agreed that if he does go, we need to get someone else in. So you can't try and say "I told you so" just yet.
NickG Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 Agreed if Puncheon goes we could do with replacement.
alpine_saint Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 It looks as if Puncheon is off. And everyone has agreed that if he does go, we need to get someone else in. So you can't try and say "I told you so" just yet. Yes I can.
NickG Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 (edited) actually pretty good bench - considering injuries and level! Two defenders who a lot on here rate as good enough for first team, player who played well in CCC in both midfield and fullback, one of leagues top scorers from last season, 19 yr old forward played for wales U21, young midfielder. Would like better but while suffering few injuries and possibly selling player not dire. Edited 22 January, 2011 by NickG
alpine_saint Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 actually pretty good bench - considering injuries and level! Two defenders who a lot on here rate as good enough for first team, player who played well in CCC in both midfield and fullback, one of leagues top scorers from last season, 19 yr old forward played for wales U21, young midfielder. Would like better but while suffering few injuries and possibly selling player not dire. I've concluded that you actually couldnt give a toss about whether we get promoted or succeed generally or not. You'd be happy and bigging the club up if we got relegated to Division 4. Your perspective loses credibility by the minute, and today's game has buried the debate of this thread. And the two similar ones you started. Completely.
Fan The Flames Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 The stats are now; without lallana .9 points per game, with 2.35 with and over 66% of games with out him we don't score. And yet people still don't think we need to splash the cash.
WATERSIDEIFASAINT Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 Our bench is not good enough imo.I think if we don't add to this squad we will not get an automatic promotion spot due to our inconsistency. Very very poor performance and result today.We all know it will be a rollercoaster ride but we really should be doing a lot lot better against sides like Tranmere. We need another winger,striker and central midfielder which I have been saying all season to have the strength in depth we need to cope with injuries and loss of form
NickG Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 I've concluded that you actually couldnt give a toss about whether we get promoted or succeed generally or not. You'd be happy and bigging the club up if we got relegated to Division 4. Your perspective loses credibility by the minute, and today's game has buried the debate of this thread. And the two similar ones you started. Completely. would anyone care if I they had no credibility with a depressed arrogant moron?
Griffo Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 We ****ing need to buy some players with only 8 days left now.
Barry the Badger Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 The team we put out today was easily good enough to beat Tranmere. I'm still not convinced that more players is the answer.
Barry the Badger Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 Your perspective loses credibility by the minute, and today's game has buried the debate of this thread. And the two similar ones you started. Completely. I'm sorry but it really hasn't. It only buries the debate if you believe that buying more players is the answer to performances like todays.
david in sweden Posted 22 January, 2011 Author Posted 22 January, 2011 (edited) The stats are now; without lallana .9 points per game, with 2.35 with and over 66% of games with out him we don't score. And yet people still don't think we need to splash the cash. Hi Fan the Flames...where were you when I started this thread?... #1 the vast majority of people in the previous 233 postings have criticised my comments from the start. Not just a bad day at the office lads, without Lallana to run the midfield we just don't make it , ...and with Barnard the only fit striker on the bench - we don't seem to have many options up front either..... roll on Man.Utd Reserves...next weekend eh ?..maybe they'll be kind to us and leave Rooney and Giggs on the bench... Edited 22 January, 2011 by david in sweden
david in sweden Posted 22 January, 2011 Author Posted 22 January, 2011 actually pretty good bench - considering injuries and level! Two defenders who a lot on here rate as good enough for first team, player who played well in CCC in both midfield and fullback, one of leagues top scorers from last season, 19 yr old forward played for wales U21, young midfielder. Would like better but while suffering few injuries and possibly selling player not dire. Er, sorry ? ..can you say that again...
NickG Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 Hi Fan the Flames...where were you when I started this thread?... #1 the vast majority of people in the previous 233 postings have criticised my comments from the start. Not just a bad day at the office lads, without Lallana to run the midfield we just don't make it , ...and with Barnard the only fit striker on the bench - we don't seem to have many options up front either..... roll on Man.Utd reserves...next weekend eh ? buy that Lallana bloke you are talking about and we should be ok then!
david in sweden Posted 22 January, 2011 Author Posted 22 January, 2011 buy that Lallana bloke you are talking about and we should be ok then! If only ...we don't have much choice on the bench - do we ? ...are you one of those guys saying...we don't need to buy extra cover..for injuries etc, ?
IamLeGod Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 Owwwwwwwwwwww we lost one match!!! We must buy more players!!!! Get a grip.
Redondo Saint Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 as predicted, a lot of people on this forum got carried away after last week. we need reinforcements
hackedoff Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 In answer to the thread question, it depends on if everyone is happy remaining in this league. If not then the answer is YES !
NickG Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 Agreed if Puncheon goes we could do with replacement. Ox-C and Puncheon haven't left. Sure Adkins is aware of the situation and will react accordingly. We have used as forwards this season Lambert 9 goals Guly 8 goals Barnard 8 goals Lallana 9 goals Connolly 1 goal Ox-C 7 goals key word is potentially. Adkins will know whether Puncheon and Ox-C are staying. He will also have a better idea on Lallana's and Chaplow's fitness. If those factors are all negative then I agree we need to get someone in, but if they are not (and we can only honestly judge on facts and where we are now) I don't think we do We were lacking the Puncheon replacement. If he is gone we need to replace him. Happy with squad apart from that.
david in sweden Posted 22 January, 2011 Author Posted 22 January, 2011 (edited) Owwwwwwwwwwww we lost one match!!! We must buy more players!!!! Get a grip. as far as I understand it, we were lucky not to lose at home v.Notts County last Saturday... It's not the fact that we lost a game, but maybe that we've lost 5 out of the last 6 points ..without Adam Lallana .. ....or even scoring one goal. one sub.striker available. ..not a problem? Even ...if AL is fit again soon, it might not be his last injury problem, then we'll still have the same problem as we have today. No Lallana....No midfield. = No goals. This season so far, we've only failed to score 3 times when Lallana was playing, but didn't score in 8 of the games when he was injured.. surely that tells us something...? Edited 22 January, 2011 by david in sweden
NickG Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 Games in last month: 5 wins, 1 draw, 1 defeat, goals for 19, goals against 4.
IamLeGod Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 But we didn't lose. Ok, 2 poor performances on the back of a very good run. Brighton had a blip earlier in the season, as have other team and more teams to come will. Signings do not solve everything. There is enough strength in this squad to achieve what we want.
MarkSFC Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 I point everyone to Exhibit "A" - our bench today against Tranmere. Exactly................case closed.
S-Clarke Posted 22 January, 2011 Posted 22 January, 2011 We could do with a couple more attacking options, but when Hammond and Lallana are fit we'll look much stronger. We're guilty of being a little greedy. This squad should be more than good enough to get us up really, you shouldn't need to spend £3m + to get out of this league. Other teams don't need to. Take a look at our squad from the Man Utd game 3 years ago, we're now a division lower but IMO this squad is in a different planet to that lot.
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