saint boggy Posted 17 January, 2011 Share Posted 17 January, 2011 (edited) Sorry, you are wrong. When "its" is used to mean 'belonging to it', an apostrophe is not correct. The apostrophe is only used for the contraction, when it's means 'it is'. you sure about that? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gullivers-Travels/dp/B000JQUZ3W/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295297957&sr=1-1 ie, the travels belonging to Gulliver. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jamies-30-Minute-Meals-Revolutionary-Approach/dp/0718154770/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295298174&sr=1-5 ie, the 30 minuite meals belonging to Jamie. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alices-Adventures-in-Wonderland/dp/B000JQV3QA/ref=sr_1_9?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295298174&sr=1-9 ie, the adventures in Wonderland belonging to Alice Edited 17 January, 2011 by saint boggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 17 January, 2011 Share Posted 17 January, 2011 you sure about that? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gullivers-Travels/dp/B000JQUZ3W/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295297957&sr=1-1 ie, the travels belonging to Gulliver. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jamies-30-Minute-Meals-Revolutionary-Approach/dp/0718154770/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295298174&sr=1-5 ie, the 30 minuite meals belonging to Jamie. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alices-Adventures-in-Wonderland/dp/B000JQV3QA/ref=sr_1_9?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295298174&sr=1-9 ie, the adventures in Wonderland belonging to Alice now surely ,with all due respect Hamilton , you must concede that on this occasion you got it wrong. I think he's saying this rule applies to the word 'it', not to any normal noun that is possessive TBF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint boggy Posted 17 January, 2011 Share Posted 17 January, 2011 I think he's saying this rule applies to the word 'it', not to any normal noun that is possessive TBF. reading back on the thread BTF it appears you are correct. I was tipsy when i started on this thread , so obviously wasn't looking properly ,D'OH! It would seem though that the word 'it' is the exception to the rule of possesive use of the apostrophe,though, just in case anyone is remotely interested anymore! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 17 January, 2011 Share Posted 17 January, 2011 reading back on the thread BTF it appears you are correct. I was tipsy when i started on this thread , so obviously wasn't looking properly ,D'OH! It would seem though that the word 'it' is the exception to the rule of possesive use of the apostrophe,though, just in case anyone is remotely interested anymore! "Its" doesn't take an apostrophe in the same way "his" or "hers" don't, it's a complete word in its own right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 17 January, 2011 Share Posted 17 January, 2011 Stop it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 17 January, 2011 Share Posted 17 January, 2011 "Its" doesn't take an apostrophe in the same way "his" or "hers" don't, it's a complete word in its own right. Its (belonging to it) and It's (a contraction of it is) are two separate words with separate meanings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilton Saint Posted 17 January, 2011 Share Posted 17 January, 2011 I think he's saying this rule applies to the word 'it', not to any normal noun that is possessive TBF. I'm glad somebody on here can read and can also think clearly. Now don't get me started on plurals! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 18 January, 2011 Share Posted 18 January, 2011 I'm glad somebody on here can read and can also think clearly. Now don't get me started on plurals! You mean the 'greengrocers' apostrophes'? I'm so tempted to rub them out if I see them on, for instance, a board outside a butcher's shop or similar. GRRRR! Although I know it's perfectly proper grammar, I'm fed up with hearing 'the event impacted the victim' (as an example). I'd rather hear 'the event had an impact on the victim. I also dislike 'going forward' and the American habit of answering a question with 'So ..........' Hey, I'm a grumpy old woman today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 18 January, 2011 Share Posted 18 January, 2011 Why is the 'i' in Rotten Ronnie's slogan "i'm lovin' it" not a capital ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 18 January, 2011 Share Posted 18 January, 2011 Who'd have thought there could be so many persnickety posters in one place. Well done everyone. Keep the philistines at bay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tone Posted 18 January, 2011 Share Posted 18 January, 2011 reading back on the thread BTF it appears you are correct. I was tipsy when i started on this thread , so obviously wasn't looking properly ,D'OH! It would seem though that the word 'it' is the exception to the rule of possesive use of the apostrophe,though, just in case anyone is remotely interested anymore! I think everyone else already knew that! Now, may we get on to the misuse of 'accept', when 'except' is meant please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 18 January, 2011 Share Posted 18 January, 2011 Why is the 'i' in Rotten Ronnie's slogan "i'm lovin' it" not a capital ? 'cause they is uneducated peasants, innit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilton Saint Posted 18 January, 2011 Share Posted 18 January, 2011 You mean the 'greengrocers' apostrophes'? I'm so tempted to rub them out if I see them on, for instance, a board outside a butcher's shop or similar. GRRRR! Although I know it's perfectly proper grammar, I'm fed up with hearing 'the event impacted the victim' (as an example). I'd rather hear 'the event had an impact on the victim. I also dislike 'going forward' and the American habit of answering a question with 'So ..........' Hey, I'm a grumpy old woman today Agreed. And who decided that 'committing oneself to' was no longer a reflexive verb? Now, people seem to "commit to a cause", instead of "committing themselves to a cause". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpb Posted 18 January, 2011 Share Posted 18 January, 2011 Who'd have thought there could be so many persnickety posters in one place. Well done everyone. Keep the philistines at bay. Has anyone else noticed the mistake in the title of the thread 'If there was an election tomorrow...'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 18 January, 2011 Share Posted 18 January, 2011 Has anyone else noticed the mistake in the title of the thread 'If there was an election tomorrow...'? Shouldn't it be: If there were [to be] an election tomorrow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpb Posted 18 January, 2011 Share Posted 18 January, 2011 Shouldn't it be: If there were [to be] an election tomorrow? You are good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 18 January, 2011 Share Posted 18 January, 2011 You are good! So I'm told Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alehouseboys Posted 18 January, 2011 Share Posted 18 January, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tone Posted 19 January, 2011 Share Posted 19 January, 2011 Ah yes, an interesting, but debatable, use of the collective singular which grates badly. It's almost correct, if you squint a bit and have a following wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dellboypete Posted 19 January, 2011 Share Posted 19 January, 2011 My wife bought me this for Christmas: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Eats-shoots-leaves-Tolerance-Punctuation/dp/1861976127/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295444268&sr=1-1 not sure if it was hint or not, but it made me realise that I was actually taught all this at school (a long time ago). On the other hand, this looks a bit more topical for this thread: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Eats-****es-Leaves-Crap-English/dp/1843172747/ref=pd_sim_b_3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 19 January, 2011 Share Posted 19 January, 2011 One thing that gets me going is: "Thierry Henry the France captain..... " Is this correct? Shouldn't it be the French captain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 19 January, 2011 Share Posted 19 January, 2011 Ooooooh I've got another one! I grimace when someone says 'He is going to try and win the next game'. Surely it should read 'He is going to try TO win the next game'.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 19 January, 2011 Share Posted 19 January, 2011 BTF - yes it should be try to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanh Posted 19 January, 2011 Share Posted 19 January, 2011 One thing that gets me going is: "Thierry Henry the France captain..... " Is this correct? Shouldn't it be the French captain? It could be either. '..the France captain.' refers to him being the captain of France. '...the French captain.' explains that he is French. If using the former the assumption that he is French is implicit in his role as captain of the national team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tone Posted 19 January, 2011 Share Posted 19 January, 2011 (edited) It could be either. '..the France captain.' refers to him being the captain of France. '...the French captain.' explains that he is French. If using the former the assumption that he is French is implicit in his role as captain of the national team. This. In fact 'French captain' is ambiguous as it could mean he was captain of anything, from a boat to his club team, but happens to be French. So 'France captain' is preferable for clarity of meaning because it can only mean captain of a national team representing France, even though it sounds wrong. Edited 19 January, 2011 by Ken Tone Needed to correct typo before it was seen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tone Posted 19 January, 2011 Share Posted 19 January, 2011 If we are in a pedantic frame of mind, may I just say how much I hated hearing the song lyrics, "If I just lay here..." ? Every time it was played, I wanted to shout, "If I just lie here! You lay a table, but you lie down! And anyway, it probably would be better expressed as 'if I were to lie here'." (Please note the correct use of 'and' to begin a sentence.) Strangely, I did not find my popularity at the time increased to the degree that I felt this valid and constructive criticism deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 19 January, 2011 Share Posted 19 January, 2011 This. In fact 'French captain' is ambiguous as it could mean he was captain of anything, from a boat to his club team, but happens to be French. So 'France captain' is preferable for clarity of meaning because it can only mean captain of a national team representing France, even though it sounds wrong. But then surely it should be the captain of France or the captain of the French football team rather than the France captain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanh Posted 19 January, 2011 Share Posted 19 January, 2011 But then surely it should be the captain of France or the captain of the French football team rather than the France captain Yes, your suggestions are clear and unambiguous, but '...the France captain' isn't wrong, which is what you originally asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deppo Posted 19 January, 2011 Share Posted 19 January, 2011 No, he shouldn't be the France captain. It should be Eric Abidal or Florent Malouda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 19 January, 2011 Share Posted 19 January, 2011 One of Adrian Mole's New Year's resolutions was :- I am going to teach my son's the proper use of the apostrophe. Genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted 19 January, 2011 Author Share Posted 19 January, 2011 Another point, when did the term 'all important' start being commonly used on some tv programmes?. For instance "The all important dna results" (Jeremy Kyle), and "The all important weather forecast for the week ahead" (Countryfile)..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fowllyd Posted 19 January, 2011 Share Posted 19 January, 2011 Ooooooh I've got another one! I grimace when someone says 'He is going to try and win the next game'. Surely it should read 'He is going to try TO win the next game'.? BTF - yes it should be try to win. Another point, when did the term 'all important' start being commonly used on some tv programmes?. For instance "The all important dna results" (Jeremy Kyle), and "The all important weather forecast for the week ahead" (Countryfile)..... The great beauty of any living language is that it constantly changes, evolves and adapts - just like any living thing, in fact. Words, phrases, constructions and so on are coined all the time; some die away in no time, others hang around for a while, a few end up with a permanent place in the language. The two points I've quoted illustrate this rather well. I'm not sure how long the construction 'try and (verb)' has been in use, but it's certainly nothing new. Neither is it wrong, at least in my view. I'd guess that it originated by analogy to 'go and (verb)' and 'come and (verb)' which have been common usage for a very long time. So why the objection to 'try and'? How often do you hear or see 'try to' as opposed to 'try and'?. The construction 'all important' or 'all-important' may simply be undergoing one of those surges in popularity that happen in language. People pick up on a particular word, phrase or whatever, it gets used a hell of a lot, then at some point it falls back to where it was. In this case, 'all' is used as a qualifier for the adjective, which is fine - it gives a quite different sense to 'most important'. When a phrase gets to the stage of cliché it becomes irksome to many, but this doesn't make it incorrect. We may not like every new coining or usage that comes along - in fact, we may well hate them. Personally, I cringe at the intransitive use of 'enjoy' and the ever-increasing use of 'I' rather than 'me'. But I know very well that they will become ever more accepted and eventually (probably for the former, possibly for the latter) be seen as standard and, therefore, correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 19 January, 2011 Share Posted 19 January, 2011 ^^ You talk about the incorrect use of 'I' instead of 'me'. In that vein, I really, really want to kick something when people use 'myself' instead of 'me'. For example: 'If you return the damaged article to myself, I'll repair it for you'. Err no - 'If you return the damaged article to ME, ........' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fowllyd Posted 19 January, 2011 Share Posted 19 January, 2011 ^^ You talk about the incorrect use of 'I' instead of 'me'. In that vein, I really, really want to kick something when people use 'myself' instead of 'me'. For example: 'If you return the damaged article to myself, I'll repair it for you'. Err no - 'If you return the damaged article to ME, ........' Annoys the hell out of me, too - as does 'yourself' rather than 'you'. Will they stick around in the language? Maybe, maybe not - I've no idea. But, as I said, that's the beauty of language. No doubt there were complaints about 'does' being used instead of 'doth'. Or when 'bird' started to be used to mean a small bird, rather than its original meaning of 'fledgling' (this is why the word 'blackbird' could never mean a crow, rook or raven. The change continued until the meaning of 'bird' widened to take in all feathered creatures, 'fowl' narrowing its meaning at the same time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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