Johnny Shearer Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 Was made redundant yesterday from work. Came completely out of the blue for me. Was told by my boss it was has nothing to do with the current trend in fact its the opposite. The company is growing a lot faster than expected. Therefore they are getting rid of me and replacing me with someone with a few years more experience and qualified (accountant) and another person doing another aspect of my role. To keep up with the changes. Frustrating thing is I felt I could grow into the necessary role but haven't been trained up as much as I should have been and donw what I can by myself. Now my boss is citing that as a reason to letting me go and they need someone that can do it now instead of 6 months down the line. Don't think I have a leg to stand on as I've only been there a year. Will find out on tuesday what my severance will be. But have the feeling it'll be the standard 1 week for a year's service. Still dont think its hit me. I know its not the end of the world but I didn't expect it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hacienda Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 Having had it happen to me my advice would be to view it as an opportunity. I'm now in a much better job, working for much better people, in a far superior position for more money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robsk II Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 Bad luck mate, hope you get a decent pay off and new / better job soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Shearer Posted 11 October, 2008 Author Share Posted 11 October, 2008 I can appreciate how other people feel about it now. I'm 26 and know I have some scope to look around etc. But there are people in more different circumstances that I could see it being a complete shock. I will take Hacienda's advice though. Just a shame really about it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 I didn't think a worker could be made redundant if the post was going to be filled by someone else? People can only be made redundant if the job won't exist anymore, surely? It might be worth speaking to your Union, if you're a member, or to Citizen's Advice Bureau. Someone on here (DSM?) is quite an expert in HR matters IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 I didn't think a worker could be made redundant if the post was going to be filled by someone else? People can only be made redundant if the job won't exist anymore, surely? It might be worth speaking to your Union, if you're a member, or to Citizen's Advice Bureau. Someone on here (DSM?) is quite an expert in HR matters IIRC. Sounds like they're changing the structure by making two different positions, therefore stictly speaking his exact job isn't being continued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Shearer Posted 11 October, 2008 Author Share Posted 11 October, 2008 I didn't think a worker could be made redundant if the post was going to be filled by someone else? People can only be made redundant if the job won't exist anymore, surely? It might be worth speaking to your Union, if you're a member, or to Citizen's Advice Bureau. Someone on here (DSM?) is quite an expert in HR matters IIRC. The structure of the department is changing. My boss will become the FD instead of the FC and they're getting rid of my position as the new position will take up the basics of mine and the majority of my boss's. I'll have a read round though. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Shearer Posted 11 October, 2008 Author Share Posted 11 October, 2008 Sounds like they're changing the structure by making two different positions, therefore stictly speaking his exact job isn't being continued. Thats the gist of it. Ah well, will see what they say on tuesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dark Sotonic Mills Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 They can't replace like for like in a redundancy, true but that doesn't seem the case here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 They can't replace like for like in a redundancy, true but that doesn't seem the case here. It's all words though. Can be dressed up in any fashion. If I was Johnny I'd be checking it all out carefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hacienda Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 As he's not been there a few he's screwed anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 As he's not been there a few he's screwed anyway. He's been there a year so he could sue for unfair dismissal if he had a case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dark Sotonic Mills Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 He's been there a year so he could sue for unfair dismissal if he had a case. On the face of it, it looks like he hasn't got a case at all. Better to bite the bullet and get a good reference and put it down to experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 On the face of it, it looks like he hasn't got a case at all. Better to bite the bullet and get a good reference and put it down to experience. You seem to be suggesting there is such a thing as a bad reference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1976_Child Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 Bad luck mate. I know what it feels like. Chin up, something will come along.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Shearer Posted 11 October, 2008 Author Share Posted 11 October, 2008 On the face of it, it looks like he hasn't got a case at all. Better to bite the bullet and get a good reference and put it down to experience. Thats how I am looking at it.The company is growing at a pace and looks like I got caught out in the shuffle. I'll see what they offer me. However whatever it is I shall insist on a little bit more as I should have got a pay rise following me passing an exam but I never did. Its all in my contract, I'm just a little worried about the affect it'll have on future references from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 Thats how I am looking at it.The company is growing at a pace and looks like I got caught out in the shuffle. I'll see what they offer me. However whatever it is I shall insist on a little bit more as I should have got a pay rise following me passing an exam but I never did. Its all in my contract, I'm just a little worried about the affect it'll have on future references from them. ALL references HAVE TO BE honest. If you've done nothing wrong, you can expect the reference you deserve. Not that they mean much these days anyway, just confirm you turned up for work, did a bit of work then went home without stealing all the company's assets.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Shearer Posted 11 October, 2008 Author Share Posted 11 October, 2008 ALL references HAVE TO BE honest. If you've done nothing wrong, you can expect the reference you deserve. Not that they mean much these days anyway, just confirm you turned up for work, did a bit of work then went home without stealing all the company's assets.... We can look at our references too now? I'm sure I read that somewhere. Ha ha, shame my little car isnt big enough to drag a loader all the way home! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 We can look at our references too now? I'm sure I read that somewhere. Ha ha, shame my little car isnt big enough to drag a loader all the way home! Correct. Data protection and all that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st_louis_saint Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 You seem to be suggesting there is such a thing as a bad reference Of course there is. If I'm asked for a reference by an employer for one of my ex-employees that I think was an utter ****, then I will tell his prospective new employer exactly that: he was an utter ****, and don't touch him with a bargepole. What good is a reference if it's not an honest one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Columb Saint Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 You said it was completely out of the blue but to follow the redundancy procedure the company should by law put you at risk first and go through a consultantion period you may have a claim for unfair dismissal if your unsure consule ACAS or citizen's advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastleighSoulBoy Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 Of course there is. If I'm asked for a reference by an employer for one of my ex-employees that I think was an utter ****, then I will tell his prospective new employer exactly that: he was an utter ****, and don't touch him with a bargepole. What good is a reference if it's not an honest one? Hmmmm, but are you allowed to be direct in preparing a reference. It is a fact that a disgruntled employer could, I say could, use a poor or bad reference to cause an ex employee to lose a post and maybe, just maybe, come crawling back with their tail between their legs? Which is why I thought that it was suspect, if not illegal to do so? That only time keeping, attendance etc. could be mentioned? Of course there are ways around this in that a reference does not have to be couched in positive terms. "We have attached Mr X's attendance record" Then all they need do is look and then they can take it from there and approach the employee? I'm intrigued and would be interested to find out exactly what an employer can and can't say in a reference! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 There might be some useful information and help here: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/RedundancyAndLeavingYourJob/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 I can appreciate how other people feel about it now. I'm 26 and know I have some scope to look around etc. But there are people in more different circumstances that I could see it being a complete shock. I will take Hacienda's advice though. Just a shame really about it all. Having been in the same position, I would echo Hacienda's view, in that as tough as it may seem, try and view it as an opportunity to do something. Sometimes we need a kick up the ar5e to go and do something different. Concentrate on getting qualified (maybe you could negotiate that your company pays for a part time course or something for you to continue your studies). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st_louis_saint Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 I'm intrigued and would be interested to find out exactly what an employer can and can't say in a reference! I can say whatever I like - it's what I put down on paper I have to be careful about. I think you'll find that employer-to-employer "off the record" phone calls carry far more weight than anything you see written down on company letter-headed paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 I was made redundant in March 2007 after 23 years with the same company, reason given was centralisation. As others have said , use it as an opportunity , i was out of work until November 2007 when i got a temp role , worked hard, and taken on as full time in June 2008. Only advantage i had was because i was un fairly selected for redundancy , i managed to negiaote a very big settlement package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 11 October, 2008 Share Posted 11 October, 2008 I can say whatever I like - it's what I put down on paper I have to be careful about. I think you'll find that employer-to-employer "off the record" phone calls carry far more weight than anything you see written down on company letter-headed paper. Technically an off the record informal chat on the phone doesn't constitute a reference. However I know exactly where you're coming from, as I always refuse to give a verbal reference, instead insisting that we discuss things less formally, for both good and bad employees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red&white4life Posted 12 October, 2008 Share Posted 12 October, 2008 The vast majority of employers will NOT give references as they are legally binding, so if an employer says that you a very honest and you rob your new employer blind your ex-employer can be sued. Same goes if they say that your time keeping is good when in fact you are an idle sod that is always late. All they do now, generally, is provide a statement of any absenteeism and time keeping. Some managers/supervisors etc will give a personal reference. Good luck, Col. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewell Posted 12 October, 2008 Share Posted 12 October, 2008 The vast majority of employers will NOT give references as they are legally binding, so if an employer says that you a very honest and you rob your new employer blind your ex-employer can be sued. Same goes if they say that your time keeping is good when in fact you are an idle sod that is always late. All they do now, generally, is provide a statement of any absenteeism and time keeping. Some managers/supervisors etc will give a personal reference. Good luck, Col. Spot on Col. The world of good and bad references do not exist anymore and have not done for some time. Informal chats are different and to be honest most managers screen their calls and refuse to even have informal chats these days. I suppose it depends how well they know the person ringing and if they give a ****. It is all about doing well at interview, passing a probation period and then having two years service and only then do you get some misguided sense of safety and stability in your new role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Shearer Posted 12 October, 2008 Author Share Posted 12 October, 2008 Some interesting stuff here. Cheers for the link BTF - at least I'll be a little prepared for the meeting with the boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revolution saint Posted 12 October, 2008 Share Posted 12 October, 2008 Unlucky mate, unfortunately it happens a fair bit and I guess will become a bit more common now. It happened to me and it's a right kick in the teeth. I was offered statutory minimum or redeployment - I took redeployment as it gave me a year on protected pay to find something better. I found something I thought was better but turned out to to be utter crap. Fortunately after another year I've landed something far far better that i would never have got without going through a couple of years of work being rubbish. It's easy to say it's an opportunity but there's a difference between being forced to look for a job and fancying a change. Anyway good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Shearer Posted 13 October, 2008 Author Share Posted 13 October, 2008 (edited) I've been informed now that I am to have a consultation meeting with my boss and the HR manager. I think I will need to take a representative as there is no union here. TBH I'm still flummoxed by it all. They've given me paid absence until tomorrow but there is not much I can do until I hear word back from agencies. So think I will stay on at work today. Edited 13 October, 2008 by Johnny Shearer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crouchie's Lawyer Posted 13 October, 2008 Share Posted 13 October, 2008 Knowing it is illegal to replace like for like someone once they have been made redundant, I think your company maybe trying to skirt round the law here. Especially if they are not actually cutting jobs back but infact creating jobs! They should be seen to be offering you a different position too. For example, if person (A) did jobs 1 - 5 (1 being highly important and 5 being not very important or infact essential to the company but still something which needed doing - like making the tea for example) and he were made redundant, if they replaced him with persons © & (D) with © doing jobs 1 - 4 and (D) doing job 5 plus a few new jobs, surely that is just adjusting the deck chairs on the titanic so to speak. They are creating a loop hole which could be looked into. I think you would be well getting legal advice as per some of the suggestions above. Worse case you dont gain anything from it. Best case is you could end up with ££££'s in compensation and knowledge they cannot give you a bad reference so no potential trouble with future jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanh Posted 13 October, 2008 Share Posted 13 October, 2008 Unlucky mate. It's happened to me 4 times in 25 years and every time I've found something better as a result and the payouts have enabled me to put down a deposit on a house and buy and Audi TT. My advice to you is to treat it as an opportunity and put energy into your search for a new job. If, as you say, the economy isn't having a bad affect on the industry you are currently in, perhaps your skills will be readily transferable to another company doing a similar thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Shearer Posted 13 October, 2008 Author Share Posted 13 October, 2008 (edited) Spoken to ACAS and they've confirmed what I thought and read up on. Due to me being here just under a year (by 2/3 weeks), there isnt much recourse fro me. Therefore will look at whats available now rather than stew about it. Cheers folks. Edited 13 October, 2008 by Johnny Shearer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crouchie's Lawyer Posted 13 October, 2008 Share Posted 13 October, 2008 Spoken to ACAS and they've confirmed what I thought and read up on. Due to me being here just under a year (2/3 weeks), there isnt much recourse fro me. Therefore will look at whats available now rather than stew about it. Cheers folks. Tis a shame, well good luck mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 13 October, 2008 Share Posted 13 October, 2008 Spoken to ACAS and they've confirmed what I thought and read up on. Due to me being here just under a year (2/3 weeks), there isnt much recourse fro me. Therefore will look at whats available now rather than stew about it. Cheers folks. Aah there are so many companies now dismissing people just a week or two shy of the first anniversary, in order to get round redundancy and other workers' rights issues. Good luck Johnny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurosaint Posted 13 October, 2008 Share Posted 13 October, 2008 The structure of the department is changing. My boss will become the FD instead of the FC and they're getting rid of my position as the new position will take up the basics of mine and the majority of my boss's. I'll have a read round though. Cheers. He sounds more like an FC to me ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbury Posted 4 November, 2008 Share Posted 4 November, 2008 I've been informed now that I am to have a consultation meeting with my boss and the HR manager. I think I will need to take a representative as there is no union here. TBH I'm still flummoxed by it all. They've given me paid absence until tomorrow but there is not much I can do until I hear word back from agencies. So think I will stay on at work today. Hey - what happened in the consultation meeting? Are you still there, or did you go straight after the meeting? (I'm now in the same situation...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 4 November, 2008 Share Posted 4 November, 2008 It's all words though. Can be dressed up in any fashion. If I was Johnny I'd be checking it all out carefully. Should do, sounds like he's been sacked for not being up to the new job that's being created without being offered extra training to step up.Dodgy dos if you ask me (which you probably didn't) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesaint sfc Posted 4 November, 2008 Share Posted 4 November, 2008 I only just saw this thread! I knew it was your birthday yesterday so I was ................................. Unlucky There will be a job going soon where I work at the moment! Any monkey could do it.... Yes it would be my job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Shearer Posted 4 November, 2008 Author Share Posted 4 November, 2008 Hey - what happened in the consultation meeting? Are you still there, or did you go straight after the meeting? (I'm now in the same situation...) Well being there for just a year there wasn't much I could do. They asked me to work to the end of the month but gave me time off (as per the norm) to sign up to agencies. Also that I could leave if I had found another job - which in the space of two weeks was unlikely. They said I could apply for other jobs in the company but there was nothing suitable for me. I took another colleague with me into the meeting and went over with them with what was said. Sadly my options were limited. Should do, sounds like he's been sacked for not being up to the new job that's being created without being offered extra training to step up.Dodgy dos if you ask me (which you probably didn't) Is that your opinion or is this coming from a HR background of sorts? I went as part of 're-structuring' and have asked colleagues to find out if the incoming person is indeed qualified (in a professional finance qualification) and manages the team which I was part of. I've moved on now and looking at a couple other things which are closer to home and I'll see how they go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crouchie's Lawyer Posted 4 November, 2008 Share Posted 4 November, 2008 Well good luck JS. Did you speak with a HR person or equivilent in the end? Still think your situation is a little grey and its not as clear cut as your company telling you, your job is no more. Especially if they are replacing you. The rule is that if your job is being made redundant, then they cannot replace you. By making two jobs, they are skirting around the law and IMO treading on thin ice. If it were this easy, everyone would just say they are creating two jobs rather than one and get rid of who they want?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give it to Ron Posted 4 November, 2008 Share Posted 4 November, 2008 Like others have said treat it as an opportunity - I have been made redundant 4 times now and used the money to move house. I have changed career path many times going from import/exports-cleaning-furnaceman-accounts and now into IT for IBM. I worked for BG and Phillips and redundant from both. I have worked for a US bank and had an all expenses paid trip to the US. It seems really crap now mate and I feel sorry for you but keep your chin up and stay positive something good may come of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Shearer Posted 4 November, 2008 Author Share Posted 4 November, 2008 Like others have said treat it as an opportunity - I have been made redundant 4 times now and used the money to move house. I have changed career path many times going from import/exports-cleaning-furnaceman-accounts and now into IT for IBM. I worked for BG and Phillips and redundant from both. I have worked for a US bank and had an all expenses paid trip to the US. It seems really crap now mate and I feel sorry for you but keep your chin up and stay positive something good may come of this. I am doing so and appreciate it Ron, no point in getting dragged down with it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknrollman no2 Posted 4 November, 2008 Share Posted 4 November, 2008 As Give it to Ron and others have said,treat it as a new opportunity and maybe even try to take a new direction. Ive been made redundant twice and both times i thought it was the end of the world,but in the end it always turned out better in the long run. Anyway i hope you find something better soon and good luck for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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