PinkScarf Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 Bart seems to leak few goals and should be given a go in the League Games.
PinkScarf Posted 10 January, 2011 Author Posted 10 January, 2011 Including the JPT last year - each game I've seen him play - he has impressed.
Colinjb Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 His distribution is bloody awful. Had more slices on saturday then a slob enjoying takeaway pizza. Obviously not a bad keeper, but Kelvin is better.
Matthew Le God Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 His distribution is bloody awful. TBF Davis' kicking isn't great either.
Colinjb Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 TBF Davis' kicking isn't great either. It's not as bad. It's all relative.
PinkScarf Posted 10 January, 2011 Author Posted 10 January, 2011 It's not about Brentford when Kelvin was poor. Saints have been weak on the road this season and concede regularly. When Bart plays Saints seem to keep clean sheets.
PinkScarf Posted 10 January, 2011 Author Posted 10 January, 2011 Forecast is good at Reserve team level - Bart has more potential
fish fingers Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 Forecast is good at Reserve team level - Bart has more potential Forecast is our future number 1 Barts kicking was crap on Saturday
Turkish Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 It's not about Brentford when Kelvin was poor. Saints have been weak on the road this season and concede regularly. When Bart plays Saints seem to keep clean sheets. In the one game he has played this season he has kept a clean sheet. So yes he has 100% clean record. We should keep Fonte out as well as the Martin/Seaborne centre half pairing has a 100% clean sheet record as well.
Gemmel Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 As like many clubs, the 2nd keeper tends to get the cup games. It will be intresting to see who gets the nod for manure
fish fingers Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 As like many clubs, the 2nd keeper tends to get the cup games. It will be intresting to see who gets the nod for manure Unless injured, suspended or sold it will be Davis.
Deppo Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 Bart's inadequacies were quite obvious last time he had a run in the first team. Good shot stopper, needs maturity before he is a number 1.
oxfordshire_saint Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 I have a panic attack when Kelvin gets a backpass, I think he does too
shurlock Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 bart is the karate kid and kelv is mr miyagi - he'll get his chance one day. till then...
Saint Fan CaM Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 I think if you were to have a little look back at most of the goals we've conceded this season, Bart would have made no difference to the scoreline. In terms of shot stoppers, I would say they are on even matching even though Bart has had less opportunity to show what he can do. On the other hand, I believe that Davis' distribution, while not perfect is currently better than Barts and as such provides better attacking opportunities. Overall then, Davis still has the upper hand and of course is Club Captain - something he has earned as a time-served professional.
Jonnyboy Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 I have a panic attack when Kelvin gets a backpass, I think he does too you worry too much.
Huffton Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 Bart just looks bloody nervous to me, and for a big lad he does flap at more than his fair share of crosses, although whether Kelvin would have even come for them is debateable. Stick with KDs experience for now, the last thing we need going into what could be a tight finish for the top two places is a keeper who bricks it everytime the ball comes near him. Get Bart out on loan to a league 2 club, decent first team experience and gain some confidence, we can always recall him if anything happens to Kelvin.
Deppo Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 He was way off his line when he had to make that (albeit decent) save on Saturday. Poor positioning, IMO.
David Strover Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 I only saw it on the goggle box so perhaps I shouldn't make too much of a judgement but the cross he missed that had to be cleared off the line was very poor goalkeeping. Poor positioning to start off with and then poor decision making that gave them a chance to score when really it was a ball that should have been caught. Having said the save was good and he kept a clean sheet so job done. With a bit more experience and training he will get even better. The goalkeepers art of dealing with crosses in this country has been in decline for many, many years. I think it really went downhill when we got the influx of Euro-Keepers because I can remember way back in the day when British goalies caught crosses and 'world-class' goalies like Sepp Maier did weird punchy-flappy type things at crosses. We shouldn't be too hard on Kelvin or Bart for their inability to deal cleanly with crosses, it's a big club with a lot members nowadays.
CanadaSaint Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 The goalkeepers art of dealing with crosses in this country has been in decline for many, many years. I think it really went downhill when we got the influx of Euro-Keepers because I can remember way back in the day when British goalies caught crosses and 'world-class' goalies like Sepp Maier did weird punchy-flappy type things at crosses. We shouldn't be too hard on Kelvin or Bart for their inability to deal cleanly with crosses, it's a big club with a lot members nowadays. I think it went downhill when the ball started to become livelier. The goalie's (milliseconds) thought process is to compute the high intercept point and go for it, so that you take it as high up the arc (and above heading-height) as you can. With today's ball, you can all too easily get to that intercept point only to find that the ball has swerved or dipped somewhere else. So keepers are - often wisely, in my view - reluctant to even go for it.
Legod Third Coming Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 bart is the karate kid and kelv is mr miyagi - he'll get his chance one day. till then... Does that mean Kelvin is bringing round my Sechuan style Pork later? You've lost me...
Deppo Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 Mr Miyagi is Japanese. Do they all look the same to you?
Legod Third Coming Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 Mr Miyagi is Japanese. Do they all look the same to you? My bad, he's bringing around my Teryaki Beef. Good spot.
Micky Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 To be honest, in this league they are both more than competent keepers. Let's not forget that Kelvin could be warming his ass on Avrams bench and picking up a packet for the priviledge. Hopefully he will be rewarded for his loyalty when we play them a couple of times next season...!
Nutwood2 Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 Give the guy a break. Obviously if he hardly ever plays in the first team his kicking and his judgement at crosses will not be spot on straight away, which, in itself is a dilemma as we can't afford for mistakes to happen. So, what's the answer. Play him against crap opposition where any mistake might not be too costly or loan him out at a decent level where he can adjust to the pace of the game at someone else's expense. Difficult to know!
derry Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 (edited) I just don't get the hero worship of Kelvin Davis. He is a good shotstopper but so are most other goalkeepers, it's what they do. He is a good kicker of the ball given no pressure. That's it, he is flakey, linebound forcing the defence to defend almost under our own crossbar, he doesn't command the goal area and communicates badly with his defenders. He rarely starts a buildup from the back and seems to panic if a forward gets too near when he has the ball on the ground. It's unbelievable that we wasted £2m on him. A free transfer maybe but £2m. We need a goalkeeper that catches crosses, controls the penalty area and is comfortable under pressure playing from the back when appropriate. Bialkowski had a good game on Saturday and forced Blackpool to hit their crosses long after he caught the early balls into the goal area. There were only two crosses he didn't get and both of those were hit hard and deep outside the back post. He made one blinding save and caught two ground shots that would more than likely have been rebounded by Davis. As far as I am concerned even if his kicking isn't as good, that Bialkowski should be given the chance to be our goalkeeper. I know he probably won't be, Unless we bring in another keeper we are a better team defensively with Bialkowski in goal.. Edited 10 January, 2011 by derry
saint-ross Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 His distribution is bloody awful. Had more slices on saturday then a slob enjoying takeaway pizza. Obviously not a bad keeper, but Kelvin is better. Not completely true actually. Bart's throwing is excellent, better than i've seen from Kelvin recently. Granted Bart did slice a few kicks, but he's lacking a bit of composure, something which comes after a run of games. I've been a keeper myself, i've been through the same thing. It's amazing the difference a couple of games can make.
niceandfriendly Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 I only saw it on the goggle box so perhaps I shouldn't make too much of a judgement but the cross he missed that had to be cleared off the line was very poor goalkeeping. Poor positioning to start off with and then poor decision making that gave them a chance to score when really it was a ball that should have been caught. Having said the save was good and he kept a clean sheet so job done. With a bit more experience and training he will get even better. The goalkeepers art of dealing with crosses in this country has been in decline for many, many years. I think it really went downhill when we got the influx of Euro-Keepers because I can remember way back in the day when British goalies caught crosses and 'world-class' goalies like Sepp Maier did weird punchy-flappy type things at crosses. We shouldn't be too hard on Kelvin or Bart for their inability to deal cleanly with crosses, it's a big club with a lot members nowadays. It may just be because I'm high, but I reckon you're onto something there. I think you're absolutely right, and the European reference made me consider something else. Ever since tackling became almost illegal in football (thanks to those lovely people in Zurich making all the decisions) Goalkeepers' ability at coming for crosses has deteriorated. You're not allowed to barge people (fairly) out the way to get the ball anymore. You just can't touch anyone in the penalty area. And it's exactly the same (actually, worse) for the strikers. They're not allowed to touch the keeper, even if they win the header clearly and fairly. Hence we haven't seen too many proper 'Ron Davies type' centre forwards in recent years, I reckon. Keepers should be allowed to be physical if within the laws of the game and attacking players should be allowed to be physical if within the laws of the game. F**king Europeans. Anyway, sidetracking again.... I say stick with Kelv, but prepare Bart to be our number one.
niceandfriendly Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 I just don't get the hero worship of Kelvin Davis. He is a good shotstopper but so are most other goalkeepers, it's what they do. He is a good kicker of the ball given no pressure. That's it, he is flakey, linebound forcing the defence to defend almost under our own crossbar, he doesn't command the goal area and communicates badly with his defenders. He rarely starts a buildup from the back and seems to panic if a forward gets too near when he has the ball on the ground. It's unbelievable that we wasted £2m on him. A free transfer maybe but £2m. We need a goalkeeper that catches crosses, controls the penalty area and is comfortable under pressure playing from the back when appropriate. Bialkowski had a good game on Saturday and forced Blackpool to hit their crosses long after he caught the early balls into the goal area. There were only two crosses he didn't get and both of those were hit hard and deep outside the back post. He made one blinding save and caught two ground shots that would more than likely have been rebounded by Davis. As far as I am concerned even if his kicking isn't as good, that Bialkowski should be given the chance to be our goalkeeper. I know he probably won't be, Unless we bring in another keeper we are a better team defensively with Bialkowski in goal.. I agree with you on many of the things you've said here. Although I think you're being harsh on Davis. He has on many occasions pulled of truly World Class saves which has in-turn saved us many games. Yes he has a lot of faults, but give the guy a bit of respect.
derry Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 (edited) I think it went downhill when the ball started to become livelier. The goalie's (milliseconds) thought process is to compute the high intercept point and go for it, so that you take it as high up the arc (and above heading-height) as you can. With today's ball, you can all too easily get to that intercept point only to find that the ball has swerved or dipped somewhere else. So keepers are - often wisely, in my view - reluctant to even go for it. FFS Bill, Bart caught everything that wasn't hit hard and deep, thereby relieving the back four and allowed them to defend outside the six yd box instead of under their own crossbar. He forced Blackpool to either hit the crosses away from him or deep and the only two he didn't get were overhit. John thought he was a vast improvement and made it easy for the central defenders and coming from him, a great central defender himself was good enough for me. Edited 10 January, 2011 by derry
Huffton Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 I just don't get the hero worship of Kelvin Davis. He is a good shotstopper but so are most other goalkeepers, it's what they do. He is a good kicker of the ball given no pressure. That's it, he is flakey, linebound forcing the defence to defend almost under our own crossbar, he doesn't command the goal area and communicates badly with his defenders. He rarely starts a buildup from the back and seems to panic if a forward gets too near when he has the ball on the ground. It's unbelievable that we wasted £2m on him. A free transfer maybe but £2m. We need a goalkeeper that catches crosses, controls the penalty area and is comfortable under pressure playing from the back when appropriate. Bialkowski had a good game on Saturday and forced Blackpool to hit their crosses long after he caught the early balls into the goal area. There were only two crosses he didn't get and both of those were hit hard and deep outside the back post. He made one blinding save and caught two ground shots that would more than likely have been rebounded by Davis. As far as I am concerned even if his kicking isn't as good, that Bialkowski should be given the chance to be our goalkeeper. I know he probably won't be, Unless we bring in another keeper we are a better team defensively with Bialkowski in goal.. Don't think theres any 'hero worship' going on, more that most people who aren't blinded by some strange irrational hatred can see that, for the moment, KD is a better keeper. And all thats really important is that what NA thinks, and he has more badges than me so I trust his judgement.
derry Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 I agree with you on many of the things you've said here. Although I think you're being harsh on Davis. He has on many occasions pulled of truly World Class saves which has in-turn saved us many games. Yes he has a lot of faults, but give the guy a bit of respect. I gave him credit for his shot stopping which is really noticeable when playing for a team under pressure. In my opinion he isn't a good enough all round goalkeeper and could yet cost us. Nearly every goalkeeper at SMS this season has been a good shot stopper. Exeter's reserve keeper was a standout we would have scored 10 otherwise, another Lee of Brentford was brilliant and both of them cleaned up the crosses.
derry Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 Don't think theres any 'hero worship' going on, more that most people who aren't blinded by some strange irrational hatred can see that, for the moment, KD is a better keeper. And all thats really important is that what NA thinks, and he has more badges than me so I trust his judgement. I have no irrational hatred for KD he seems a nice guy but that isn't enough. I want to see our defence put under less pressure in our box because our keeper stays anchored to the goal line. We need an all round goalkeeper not a two trick pony. As far as I am concerned it is only a matter of time until he is replaced.
Trader Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 I also believe Bart is the future. Maybe, as a former keeper Adkins can see this and will give him an extended run in the first team. I think he deserves it.
aintforever Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 Bart commands his box better than Kelvin but it would be harsh to drop him, he hasn't made many mistakes and is a superb shot stopper.
CanadaSaint Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 FFS Bill, Bart caught everything that wasn't hit hard and deep, thereby relieving the back four and allowed them to defend outside the six yd box instead of under their own crossbar. He forced Blackpool to either hit the crosses away from him or deep and the only two he didn't get were overhit. John thought he was a vast improvement and made it easy for the central defenders and coming from him, a great central defender himself was good enough for me. Praise indeed, Dave. Let's wait and see if he does it consistently, and also - as I mentioned earlier - if his psyche can withstand a poor game. That's my big concern about Bart. My comments about keepers and crosses in the modern game were more generic - very, very few keepers "dominate the six yard box" the way they were expected to some years back, and that - to me - is a function of the ball as much as anything.
Dark Munster Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 Not completely true actually. Bart's throwing is excellent, better than i've seen from Kelvin recently. Granted Bart did slice a few kicks, but he's lacking a bit of composure, something which comes after a run of games. I've been a keeper myself, i've been through the same thing. It's amazing the difference a couple of games can make. This.
saintwarwick Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 Bart's inadequacies were quite obvious last time he had a run in the first team. Good shot stopper, needs maturity before he is a number 1. His last run in the first team had him playing 9 games and the team winning 7, both losses away and one to Leeds who were eventually promoted. Be interesting to see how your "inadequacies" fit in with this run of his.
Huffton Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 My comments about keepers and crosses in the modern game were more generic - very, very few keepers "dominate the six yard box" the way they were expected to some years back, and that - to me - is a function of the ball as much as anything. You are 100% correct. Modern balls 'swirl' and hang in the air a lot more than they used to. When I was doing my coaching badge the coach (Keith Grainger) described his drill of 'wait wait go' for coming for crosses, and the explanation was to mentally say 'wait wait' to allow an extra second for judging the flight of the ball. There really aren't a lot of keepers happy to come off their line in a crowded area for anything thats no under the bar.
dubai_phil Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 Bart has a critical job at the club. He has to be READY. Whether injury, sudden loss of form or a suspension, he is being paid well to be ready. That is Football. Whether or not KD is a better all round keeper is not the argument, KD has done nothing to deserve being DROPPED in a Robert Green way. When KD has made a mistake he's got back up and kept us in another game. Bart is the furture, he can't now be loaned out because if KD became unavailable you cannot recall in the first month (or something like that). Loan out Bart KD gets a straight Red for giving away a penalty and we've got Forecast in goal for a game or three. Nope, he's being paid very well for being Ready, and the really important thing is - that KD KNOWS it. KD ain't gonna get dropped for Forecast if he has a few bad games, but Bart keeps KD on his toes. For the Cup Game, different call, because it's Man ure and likely on TV we need our first X1 on the pitch to see where we are in our rebuilding and how far we really have to go. KD it should be
niceandfriendly Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 Keepers should be allowed to be physical if within the laws of the game and attacking players should be allowed to be physical if within the laws of the game. F**king Europeans. and now having seen the highlights of the Blackpool match and Barnard's disallowed own goal... well... now you're not even allowed to take the ball off the goalie even if you don't touch him!!
PinkScarf Posted 10 January, 2011 Author Posted 10 January, 2011 Bart was really good in the JPT last year - why not mix it up between Kelvin and Bart and select Bart against Oldham. If kelvin leaks 2 goals what have Saints got to lose ?
Deppo Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 Bart was really good in the JPT last year - why not mix it up between Kelvin and Bart and select Bart against Oldham. If kelvin leaks 2 goals what have Saints got to lose ? Bart leaking 3 goals?
benjii Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 His distribution is bloody awful. Had more slices on saturday then a slob enjoying takeaway pizza. Obviously not a bad keeper, but Kelvin is better. Indeed. It's so obvious I always shake my head in disbelief when people say "give Bart a go", "is it time for Bart to take over" etc. No, no it isn't. KD is a lot better. People say, "Bart commands his area", because he comes for crosses. That's fine if he gets them but he looks dodgy. People say, "KD's distribution is poor". Well: first they're wrong, it isn't; and second, it is infinitely better than Bart's. He might be better at the odd impressive throw but his bread and butter kicking is gash. Bart could still be a good player for Saints but let's not engineer a situation where we drop a better goalie just because he has the odd good game.
benjii Posted 10 January, 2011 Posted 10 January, 2011 I have a panic attack when Kelvin gets a backpass, I think he does too Are you serious? You panic more than when Bart gets one? Are you mental?
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