bringing through the talent - and keeping it

[doddisalegend]

In light of NCs silence breaking interview what are peoples thoughts about his vision for having a team of home grown talent.

 

It sounds great. I love the idea of a team of home grown saints boys playing like Barca. Is it a realistic vision though?

 

I suppose to work it needs two things

 

a) The ability to pick up young talent early (something we've done pretty well over the years even before the new owners we had a very good youth system).

 

b)The ability to hold on to that talent when it breaks through to the first team

 

b is I think the sticking point with the plan unless you're a very rich top club in Europe any really good talent will always be tempted to move on to a bigger club even if you don't want them too.

 

thoughts?

[Mowgli]

If NC is as determined as I think he is, there is a possibility that it will work. We know for a fact that many parents encourage their youngsters in this direction because of our track record with youngsters. The investment at Steplewood makes us an even better prospect. We need to realise our ambition to match that groundwork. Right now Lallana and Oxo will be thinking they are good enough for CCC. If we are there next year they will realise that ambition and start to target the Premiership. In 2/3 years we can match that too. NC's dream is somewhat similar to the Busby Babes (actually it was Lowe's too but NC seems to have a better ability to realise the vision with sound investment). One thing I take great pride in right now as a Saints fan is to see how many St Georges flags there are on the back of the programme. Any English youngster aiming for international status will almost certainly get a better chance of regular first team action here than at the Big 5 and that's what the english coach will be looking for - particularly if it is in EPL or CL.

[Thedelldays]

on that note...walcott just scored a lovely volley in the champions league

[BadgerBadger]

Some are always going to want to move on and we'll get a wedge for them that will get ploughed back in. The new training centre, regime in place to run it and focus on all aspects of their developement (not just football) will see us keeping more than we used to, espcially if we keep moving onwards and upwards which we were not doing before hand.

[Chez]

the very best players such as Chamberlain will leave SFC for a bigger club at some point in the rise of their careers rather than the fall. So how can this concept ever work? It is a great aim, but in the end it will only work when we are the big fish in global football. Is that going to happen in my lifetime?

[Thedelldays]

the very best players such as Chamberlain will leave SFC for a bigger club at some point in the rise of their careers rather than the fall. So how can this concept ever work? It is a great aim, but in the end it will only work when we are the big fish in global football. Is that going to happen in my lifetime?

why bother eh...why do villa bother..why do man city bother..

 

OR..in the crazy world of things..we MIGHT be able to keep them longer...which of course, will benefit SFC....no..?

 

maybe we should just give up with football..or go down the current man city route and run hundreds of millions of quid worth of debt...

 

what do you reckon..?

Edited 8 December, 2010 by Thedelldays

[buctootim]

the very best players such as Chamberlain will leave SFC for a bigger club at some point in the rise of their careers rather than the fall. So how can this concept ever work? It is a great aim, but in the end it will only work when we are the big fish in global football. Is that going to happen in my lifetime?

 

In the past players left because 1. we needed the transfer fees 2. we couldnt afford to pay competitive wages 3. We couldnt offer regular trophies and glory. Seems to me issues 1 and 2 dont apply anymore and by staying for another few years they get to play regularly in the meantime. After those few years are up, who knows, we might have fixed issue 3 as well.

[aintforever]

It's all about money, players will play for anyone if you pay them enough.

[Chez]

why bother eh...why do villa bother..why do man city bother..

 

OR..in the crazy world of things..we MIGHT be able to keep them longer...which of course, will benefit SFC....no..?

 

maybe we should just give up with football..or go down the current man city route and run hundreds of millions of quid worth of debt...

 

what do you reckon..?

 

I never said it was not worthwhile having a youth policy. I could not agree with it more. What I am saying is that there is little chance of us retaining the very best players on mass like Manure did.

[Chez]

In the past players left because 1. we needed the transfer fees 2. we couldnt afford to pay competitive wages 3. We couldnt offer regular trophies and glory. Seems to me issues 1 and 2 dont apply anymore and by staying for another few years they get to play regularly in the meantime. After those few years are up, who knows, we might have fixed issue 3 as well.

 

IMO it is laughable to say we can compete wage wise with Premiership sides. If Chamberlain is offered a million quid signing on fee and £25k a week rising are we going to be able to match that in the third division? If so how does that equate with the club breaking even?

[Smirking_Saint]

I never said it was not worthwhile having a youth policy. I could not agree with it more. What I am saying is that there is little chance of us retaining the very best players on mass like Manure did.

 

No one will really, especially not when they get to the ages of around 21 etc which is probably when 'development' slows down and players need to look for positive regular football IMO.

 

However NC has his ideas (whether his or someone elses) in the right places, a strong and well built youth policy backed up with a full up to date and scientific staff/facilities goes a very very long way to selling yourself to youth players and their parents.

 

IMO i think we will be in a good place to bring youth through in a few years as long as we are at least a top NPC side. Even if we keep a fairly youthfull and talented side that stays together until 21 or so we will be in a good place.

 

Add to this fees gleemed from the players and it helps to make you self sufficient, in the future perhaps if we are looking steady in the prem we may be able to keep ahold of players but any outstanding products are of course going to leave.

 

IMO as well, the south coast which is probably a much more attractive part of England except for the bussle of London must also pay a large part in attracting players.

[buctootim]

IMO it is laughable to say we can compete wage wise with Premiership sides. If Chamberlain is offered a million quid signing on fee and £25k a week rising are we going to be able to match that in the third division? If so how does that equate with the club breaking even?

 

Go you. Knock that straw man down. No-one is going to offer Chamerberlain £25,000pw and £1million signing on and you know it. Walcott, the £11million best of his generation wonderkid got less than that.

[Chez]

Go you. Knock that straw man down. No-one is going to offer Chamerberlain £25,000pw and £1million signing on and you know it. Walcott, the £11million best of his generation wonderkid got less than that.

 

thanks, and you are right Walcott only got £20k a week. Wages have gone up since then though and don't kid yourself that Chamberlain is not regarded as highly.

Edited 8 December, 2010 by Chez

[buctootim]

says who?

 

So you're saying AOC is worth more than Walcott at the same age?

[hypochondriac]

thanks, and you are right Walcott only got £20k a week. Wages have gone up since then though and don't kid yourself that Chamberlain is not regarded as highly.

 

He isn't.

[Matthew Le God]

- Walcott left Saints in the Championship side when Arsenal came calling at the age of only 17.

- Bale left Saints after the Championship playoff failure and loss of parachute money.

 

Both took a long time to establish themselves in the new clubs(Walcott still not managed it fully) as they left too early and would have got more playing time if they stayed longer with Saints. But left because of a range of factors including Saints being a Championship club and needing money.

 

If Saints are seen to be heading back to top half of the Premier League quickly, that will help keep the players at the club. Never before have Saints had an owner providing significant backing. I think that if as Cortese states he intends to make them a force again in the top half of the Premier League and it seems he has the funds to do so, players will stay, but only if the upwards trajectory is both rapid and maintained.

 

Of course if another Bale or Walcott is discovered by Saints it would be hard to keep indefinitely, but I think Saints in future will be able to keep them into their early 20's, rather than selling them as teenagers.

Edited 8 December, 2010 by Matthew Le God

[Chez]

So you're saying AOC is worth more than Walcott at the same age?

 

transfer fees are dictated by the market, but if you are asking me if I think AOC is as good as Theo was at 17 then I'd have to say he is or certainly not far off. So I believe Premiership clubs will be all over him like a rash and £20k wages offers will come into play in the next year or so. He has the first touch, dribbling skills and genuine pace to go with it. I don't see many out there that offer that. Those that do don't stay in League 1 for long.

 

It matters not whether you or I rate him, the question is how much will we pay him and his like in the lower leagues to keep them at the club. Will we pay a youngster £20k?

[buctootim]

transfer fees are dictated by the market, but if you are asking me if I think AOC is as good as Theo was at 17 then I'd have to say he is or certainly not far off. So I believe Premiership clubs will be all over him like a rash and £20k wages offers will come into play in the next year or so. He has the first touch, dribbling skills and genuine pace to go with it. I don't see many out there that offer that. Those that do don't stay in League 1 for long.

 

It matters not whether you or I rate him, the question is how much will we pay him and his like in the lower leagues to keep them at the club. Will we pay a youngster £20k?

 

I guess every individual is different. Personally if AOC was my 17 year old son and he was offered say £15,000pw by Arsenal (I rate AOC but not as highly as Walcott) tied to a four year contract and needing to live in North London or £8,000pw by Saints with reviews based on promotion I'd advise him to go for Saints. My thinking would be he could continue to develop, play regularly, live at home and be with his mates for another two years - then at 19 he'd be more mature, more established and likely able to command an even better contract.

Edited 8 December, 2010 by buctootim

[Chez]

I guess every individual is different. Personally if AOC was my 17 year old son and he was offered say £15,000pw by Arsenal (I rate AOC but not as highly as Walcott) tied to a four year contract or £8,000pw by Saints with reviews based on promotion I'd advise him to go for Saints. My thinking would be he could continue to develop, play regularly, live at home and be with his mates for another two years - then at 19 he'd be more established and likely able to command an even better contract.

 

Bale is talked of as the best left sided player in the world. He's signed a new contract since joining Spurs and probably on £50k a week or more. Could the lad have done any better since leaving Saints? Walcott is regarded as Englands best right sided player and one of the top earners at Arsenal having signed a new contract. Yes both stumbled a little (injuries have played a much bigger part than most care to mention), but no one is going to tell me they would have been better off at Saints no matter how much I would have liked them to have stayed for another three years.

 

I hope AOC stays, but the noises from his Dad suggest promotion is essential for him to stay.

[Matthew Le God]

Bale is talked of as the best left sided player in the world. He's signed a new contract since joining Spurs and probably on £50k a week or more. Could the lad have done any better since leaving Saints? Walcott is regarded as Englands best right sided player and one of the top earners at Arsenal having signed a new contract. Yes both stumbled a little (injuries have played a much bigger part than most care to mention), but no one is going to tell me they would have been better off at Saints no matter how much I would have liked them to have stayed for another three years.

 

What if Saints were mid table Premier League side when Walcott and Bale were at the club, rather than a Championship club? Both would have developed better than they did imo. Walcott's career stalled somewhat and Spurs very nearly sold Bale to Nottingham Forest. Should Saints quickly progress up through the leagues they will find it easier to keep hold of these types of players into their early 20's at least, rather than selling them as teenagers.

[Smirking_Saint]

He isn't.

 

He is probably stronger, better technically and definately has a better brain than a young Walcott.

 

He has pace but does not possess that blistering pace Walcott has.

 

All in all, Walcott was probably a better bet than Chambo at the same age however i would argue that Chambo has easily the potential to reach the same levels as Walcott and i don't reckon he is far off his overall ability at the same age.

[Saint_clark]

Personally i'd make 5 year contracts the norm for all 17 year olds signing on.

[Gingeletiss]

Personally i'd make 5 year contracts the norm for all 17 year olds signing on.

 

This!!

 

I have been saying it for years, how the FA can not see the benefits, is beyond me.

[dubai_phil]

We need an exciting, new and innovative approach to ensuring that Academy players continue to develop into first teamers.

 

Maybe there is a template we could use?

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2005/nov/01/sport.comment

 

:lol:

[doddisalegend]

Personally i'd make 5 year contracts the norm for all 17 year olds signing on.

 

football contracts are barely worth the paper they're written on though.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

Bale is talked of as the best left sided player in the world. He's signed a new contract since joining Spurs and probably on £50k a week or more. Could the lad have done any better since leaving Saints? Walcott is regarded as Englands best right sided player and one of the top earners at Arsenal having signed a new contract. Yes both stumbled a little (injuries have played a much bigger part than most care to mention), but no one is going to tell me they would have been better off at Saints no matter how much I would have liked them to have stayed for another three years.

 

I hope AOC stays, but the noises from his Dad suggest promotion is essential for him to stay.

 

You'll need a crow bar to get some posters to take off the rose-coloured specs. Chelsea came knocking for Bridge - he went. Arsenal came knocking for Walcott - he went. Spurs came knocking for Bale - he went. Some people will continue to stare the facts of life in the face and convince themselves that this will change. The club has to be run expecting this to continue to happen (while hoping it won't).

[Ken Tone]

I guess every individual is different. Personally if AOC was my 17 year old son and he was offered say £15,000pw by Arsenal (I rate AOC but not as highly as Walcott) tied to a four year contract and needing to live in North London or £8,000pw by Saints with reviews based on promotion I'd advise him to go for Saints. My thinking would be he could continue to develop, play regularly, live at home and be with his mates for another two years - then at 19 he'd be more mature, more established and likely able to command an even better contract.

 

But what if your son then had a career-ending injury whilst at Saints? He'd get a much smaller insurance pay-out than if he'd been on twice as big a wage.

 

Or less dramatic had a bad injury, did go on to play again but was never quite as good. It happens to a lot of players.

Or even less dramatic, what if he simply didn't improve much and/or lost form? It happens to lots of youngsters, probably more than go on improving. Suppose he 'did a Lambert' the very next year!

 

So then he'd never earn the £15k a week. Would you be able to re-fund him the equivalent of £7k a week for the rest of his life?

 

Life doesn't always work out the way you plan. It would be a really brave decision by any youngster to turn down a top club and top wages. After all, if things didn't work out too well at Arsenal, he could then settle for a transfer to a smaller club later in his career, with 4 years of £15k a week behind him. That's £3 million -- enough for most people to live on for the rest of their lives.

[Saint_clark]

football contracts are barely worth the paper they're written on though.

 

Doesn't matter, it would mean that they're either here until they're 22 so we get a good service out of them, or we get a f*cking good price.

[Toadhall Saint]

The problem is the lure of playing for one of the big clubs in the prem or further afield. If that wasn't an issue then I could see it working - as it has in the past for Man U.

[doddisalegend]

The problem is the lure of playing for one of the big clubs in the prem or further afield. If that wasn't an issue then I could see it working - as it has in the past for Man U.

 

Quite as much as I love saints only a foolish player (or MLT) would turn down a move to one of the European big boys (with all the trappings that brings) to stay with saints, so for this to work we have to become a major player in European football currently sat 8th in league one that seems a bit of a pipe dream right now.

Edited 10 December, 2010 by doddisalegend

[suewhistle]

He has pace but does not possess that blistering pace Walcott has.

 

I've been told that the coaching staff's figures for the same age show otherwise...

[Harry Faz]

I've been told that the coaching staff's figures for the same age show otherwise...

 

really ? that would suprise me. He looks stronger, and has a better touch than Theo ....but doesnt 'look' as fast.

[Window Cleaner]

I shall repeat this just once more, no Saint's player will stay here if...he has an offer of Premier League football and a vastly increased salary....no-one, not one of them, not the boy next door,not your mates brothers nephew, none of them.

[Window Cleaner]

really ? that would suprise me. He looks stronger, and has a better touch than Theo ....but doesnt 'look' as fast.

 

Walcott is reputed to be the fastest player in Europe, Wenger said so when he was on commentary for the England-France match, something like 10.25 for the 100 metres, that's 100 metre European Championship fast.

[Matthew Le God]

Walcott is reputed to be the fastest player in Europe, Wenger said so when he was on commentary for the England-France match, something like 10.25 for the 100 metres, that's 100 metre European Championship fast.

 

I remember reading that Nathan Dyer used to beat him in races.

[Window Cleaner]

I remember reading that Nathan Dyer used to beat him in races.

 

used to perhaps, I don't know, Wenger said it so I guess he'd have a reason for it.

 

NB I looked it up, when Theo was about 14 he was running the 100 in about 11.7, which is damn fast for a 14 yr old, Dyer is a couple of years older so maybe a bit more muscle structure at that age. In some sort of Arsenal test Theo has been clocked at 10.2 metres /sec, ie under 10 secs for the 100

but there is of course a time of acceleration and "mise en action"Usain Bolt's WR for the 100 equates to about the same average speed but of course that's from a standing start. Theo can run over a limited distance at 36.63 km/h, try it on a bike sometime, it's freaking fast.

Edited 9 December, 2010 by Window Cleaner

[hughieslastminutegoal]

Walcott is reputed to be the fastest player in Europe, Wenger said so when he was on commentary for the England-France match, something like 10.25 for the 100 metres, that's 100 metre European Championship fast.

 

Trouble with football is that you usually need to do it with a ball........ and not run into a defender....or into the wall at the end of the pitch.

Perhaps Mr Wenger has those figures at his fingertips as well?

[Matthew Le God]

Chamberlain has a better cross and better left foot than Walcott imo.

[Window Cleaner]

Chamberlain has a better cross and better left foot than Walcott imo.

 

Perhaps if we give them the as yet unproven Chamberlain they'll give us Theo back, it's a no contest as yet.

[Ken Tone]

I remember reading that Nathan Dyer used to beat him in races.

 

He was considered faster than Walcott when they were academy players together.

[Miltonaggro]

The only thing that Saints can do to retain talented youngsters is keep on moving onwards and upwards in terms of league position, infrastructure and senior playing staff. That, and ensure that if one of the big boys come knocking they are made painfully aware that they are going to have to pay well over the odds to sign the player. A further safeguard would be to make any wantaway player aware that spitting the dummy out after being tapped up will result in a month in the reserves. It will be very interesting to see how Cortese reacts when an approach comes, my gut feeling is very different to the paper tiger that was Lowe.

 

Long term, if Saints find themselves back in the Premiership with a fan base that justifies a stadium expansion, who knows what can be achieved, another era I know but look at Forest. In real terms, there will always be a dozen or so 'superclubs' poaching youngsters and all Saints can do is force players to make any potential move a very difficult choice...

[Cabrone]

In light of NCs silence breaking interview what are peoples thoughts about his vision for having a team of home grown talent.

 

It sounds great. I love the idea of a team of home grown saints boys playing like Barca. Is it a realistic vision though?

 

I suppose to work it needs two things

 

a) The ability to pick up young talent early (something we've done pretty well over the years even before the new owners we had a very good youth system).

 

b)The ability to hold on to that talent when it breaks through to the first team

 

b is I think the sticking point with the plan unless you're a very rich top club in Europe any really good talent will always be tempted to move on to a bigger club even if you don't want them too.

 

thoughts?

 

Totally agree with him, it should always be an aim to create as many 1st team players from within as possible.

 

Not only is it desirable, I'd say it's essential that we pursue this path as much as possible and serious investment should be made available to development.

 

Of course we will lose the best ones - that's life I'm afraid - but if the club is careful they will get a pile of money for them. That money could then be re-invested into more scouting and youth development.

 

If the conveyor belt is working well there should always be another youngster waiting to fill the gap and go on to become a decent player themselves.

[Chez]

I shall repeat this just once more, no Saint's player will stay here if...he has an offer of Premier League football and a vastly increased salary....no-one, not one of them, not the boy next door,not your mates brothers nephew, none of them.

except Kelvin of course, or was he not offered a wage rise? I agree with you though.

[hypochondriac]

You lot are crazy if you think Chamberlain is better than Theo was at the same age. I mean on average, not one singular attribute.

[Window Cleaner]

except Kelvin of course, or was he not offered a wage rise? I agree with you though.

 

Kelvin was just going to be a stand in, and stand in goalies don't see much action...ask Bart.

[forever a red and white]

There are several key ingredients for it to succeed.

 

- The players that come through actually need to ability to play at a high level, as well as being local or just an academy player.

- They need time to get as a team and develop as players and this will almost certainly be built outside the Premier League.

- Patience is needed.

 

The new training ground will give us a great chance of doing this and so will an expanded and better scouting network. They can be very useful. Juande Ramos was very successful at Sevilla with the aid of a great scouting team and shrewd purchases.

Its very refreshing to see we have a long-term plan, while they can be challenging to stick to, is better than throwing millions at the first team and raising expectations beyond the roof.

 

Only time will tell if it will work.

 

I also agree with Hpyo about Chambo. Take away the raw pace, there is still an awful lot to develop, but at 17 he has time on his side. Look at Lallana, could argue won't have the pace to make it all the way to the top in his position, but has the ball skills. Chambo's pace always gives you a chance.

[Ewell]

If we can become the Ajax of the early 90's then I would be more than happy with that. They developed there own talent and brought them through to the first team at a very young age. They usually only spent a maximum of 3-4 seasons at Ajax before moving on to pastures new for a huge fee. They key thing though was there was always someone new waiting in the wings to come in and replace the departed player.

 

Not sure what has gone wrong with Ajax in the past 10 years or so but they seem to have had a massive decline in developing world class players in this period.

[doddisalegend]

If we can become the Ajax of the early 90's then I would be more than happy with that. They developed there own talent and brought them through to the first team at a very young age. They usually only spent a maximum of 3-4 seasons at Ajax before moving on to pastures new for a huge fee. They key thing though was there was always someone new waiting in the wings to come in and replace the departed player.

 

Not sure what has gone wrong with Ajax in the past 10 years or so but they seem to have had a massive decline in developing world class players in this period.

 

maybe the strain of keeping the system going? It does relay on finding a constant supply of good talent to keep the conveyor belt running having a few lean years on recruiting good young players has a knock on effect up the chain I suppose.

[Thedelldays]

After today.. No one can say chamberlain is better than what Walcott was at saints.. No way

[Window Cleaner]

After today.. No one can say chamberlain is better than what Walcott was at saints.. No way

 

who'd be stupid enough to say that then.AOC looks reasonable because he sometimes plays against awful defences. The 2 goals he scored against Dagenham were gift wrapped by their Sunday League keeper. He may have pace but in the savvy department I'm not so sure. We should not,I repeat not, have let Puncheon go just because AOC had a couple of decent looking performances against woefully poor sides, it was a crass mistake of the premier order.NA should have told Millwall to shove it and not even speak to Punch about it.Because Holmes is just a glass ornament, anyone who looks at his injury record could tell that.