Students

[Smirking_Saint]

Which sums up everything that is wrong.

 

Ability should be the bellweather for success and a uni place, not the wealth of parents or the genuine fear of a mountain of debt by potential students.

 

It's also unsurprising that the hard of thinking fail to factor in the accured "normal" debts that students will rack up alongside the £30k of liability (paid back on normal terms in addition to fee repayments) but that would involve thought and not just blind acceptance of the government line.

 

Or course, I don't have a clue about anything to do with it, what with only being a HoD in FE.

 

You are investing in your future though, so it is always going to cost you something for what you get back as that is what an investment is.

 

As for the living costs etc, yeah of course this is part of it and perhaps some of it should be factored into the debt accrued and so into the easy repayment plans that are in place.

 

I don't agree that under these plans the wealthier will benefit, it is a more level playing field IMO for everyone to get onto the further education pathways.

 

Also, if you are more afraid of the debt you may come out with compared to the benefit then it tells you all you need to know and your making the wrong decision IMO.

[CB Saint]

You are investing in your future though, so it is always going to cost you something for what you get back as that is what an investment is.

 

As for the living costs etc, yeah of course this is part of it and perhaps some of it should be factored into the debt accrued and so into the easy repayment plans that are in place.

 

I don't agree that under these plans the wealthier will benefit, it is a more level playing field IMO for everyone to get onto the further education pathways.

 

Also, if you are more afraid of the debt you may come out with compared to the benefit then it tells you all you need to know and your making the wrong decision IMO.

 

The trouble is at 18yrs old the prospect of £30-£50k debt is mind boggling. Most kids at that age have hardly had any money so asking them to get to grips with the idea that it is an investment for their future is a big ask.

[doddisalegend]

Which sums up everything that is wrong.

 

Ability should be the bellweather for success and a uni place, not the wealth of parents or the genuine fear of a mountain of debt by potential students.

 

It's also unsurprising that the hard of thinking fail to factor in the accured "normal" debts that students will rack up alongside the £30k of liability (paid back on normal terms in addition to fee repayments) but that would involve thought and not just blind acceptance of the government line.

 

Or course, I don't have a clue about anything to do with it, what with only being a HoD in FE.

 

That explains a lot.

[Saintandy666]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11992034

 

Now THAT is a riot.

[Saintandy666]

Just like in 1979 the Conservatives have made tough decisions to pull the country back from the brink of ruin, and just like in 1983 the British public will re-elect them for making the right decisions

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7noHkLaZ5VI

 

What about the Liberal Democrats?

[benjii]

Which sums up everything that is wrong.

 

Ability should be the bellweather for success and a uni place, not the wealth of parents or the genuine fear of a mountain of debt by potential students.

 

It's also unsurprising that the hard of thinking fail to factor in the accured "normal" debts that students will rack up alongside the £30k of liability (paid back on normal terms in addition to fee repayments) but that would involve thought and not just blind acceptance of the government line.

 

Or course, I don't have a clue about anything to do with it, what with only being a HoD in FE.

 

Absolutely agree, which is why this policy will hopefully have the effect of putting off the ever increasing number of students of ****poor intelligence that Labour seemed so keen to foist upon the FE industry (and vice versa).

[benjii]

The trouble is at 18yrs old the prospect of £30-£50k debt is mind boggling. Most kids at that age have hardly had any money so asking them to get to grips with the idea that it is an investment for their future is a big ask.

 

No it isn't. If you can't get your head around that you shouldn't be going to uni anyway. Most of these same kids would say they want a mortgage, a much larger loan on commercially "harder" terms, ASAP.

[Jonnyboy]

Paid for actually but thats not the point Jonny.

 

Its not actually a debt.

 

Let me put it simpler. If i was your boss for instance, and i said to you. Do this course, it will cost you 10k but you will then triple your wages and you could pay it off at 7% of your yearly salary, would you do it ??

 

yeah I would but degrees dont garantee a good job at the end

 

I would like to see all of them like yours where you do well at the end if you put the work in

[Smirking_Saint]

yeah I would but degrees dont garantee a good job at the end

 

I would like to see all of them like yours where you do well at the end if you put the work in

 

Exactly, which is why you need to make that decision before signing up.

 

Problem is most 'students' at the moment i suspect go for the lifestyle and not for what they could achieve.

 

Of course, no course garantees a job but i fail to see why anyone would go to uni and so incur the debts (before and now) if they weren't 60%+ sure that they will achieve employment at the end.

 

PS I agree, the government should be putting more pressure on industries that NEED graduates to put their hands in their pockets.

[doddisalegend]

Absolutely agree, which is why this policy will hopefully have the effect of putting off the ever increasing number of students of ****poor intelligence that Labour seemed so keen to foist upon the FE industry (and vice versa).

 

The problem is HE has become a bums on seats deal, the goverment have (and are) cutting funding in a big way, the only way to make up that cut funding up is to get as many paying bums on seats as possible the result is HE trying to cater to what the masses want rather than the more traditional degrees. For example when I started working at my place it had seven science Labs now it has none, it does however have a lot of performing arts provision becuase thats what is wanted by the masses.

 

The goverment policy will only encourage more students of ****poor intelligence if it means the universities get paid they'll take on anyone. From a purely selfish point of view I want the fees so that I and my work mates don't get laid off, the more students being milked for cash the better for my job security.

[doddisalegend]

Exactly, which is why you need to make that decision before signing up.

 

Problem is most 'students' at the moment i suspect go for the lifestyle and not for what they could achieve.

 

Of course, no course garantees a job but i fail to see why anyone would go to uni and so incur the debts (before and now) if they weren't 60%+ sure that they will achieve employment at the end.PS I agree, the government should be putting more pressure on industries that NEED graduates to put their hands in their pockets.

 

 

The problem is alot of post gradutes come ill equiped for work, I've worked with quite a few uni students and recent post grads. Most of them can talk with some intelligence on the chosen degree subject but have little common sense, a chronic problem with time keeping (mornings in particular) and little or no personal initative. It's hardly their fault school,college then 3-4 years at uni (living the lifestyle late nights, later mornings and 10-15 hours of lectures a week) just doesn't equip them for life in the full time workplace. Oh and on the whole they interview badly as well. I can see why they would miss out job wise to those with life experince. The best students/post grads I've worked with have been mature ones who have a bit of life experince before starting uni.

[Verbal]

The problem is alot of post gradutes come ill equiped for work, I've worked with quite a few uni students and recent post grads. Most of them can talk with some intelligence on the chosen degree subject but have little common sense, a chronic problem with time keeping (mornings in particular) and little or no personal initative. It's hardly their fault school,college then 3-4 years at uni (living the lifestyle late nights, later mornings and 10-15 hours of lectures a week) just doesn't equip them for life in the full time workplace. Oh and on the whole they interview badly as well. I can see why they would miss out job wise to those with life experince. The best students/post grads I've worked with have been mature ones who have a bit of life experince before starting uni.

 

Yes, extrapolating from your personal experience makes all your generalisations true.

[Johnny Bognor]

The problem is alot of post gradutes come ill equiped for work, I've worked with quite a few uni students and recent post grads. Most of them can talk with some intelligence on the chosen degree subject but have little common sense, a chronic problem with time keeping (mornings in particular) and little or no personal initative. It's hardly their fault school,college then 3-4 years at uni (living the lifestyle late nights, later mornings and 10-15 hours of lectures a week) just doesn't equip them for life in the full time workplace. Oh and on the whole they interview badly as well. I can see why they would miss out job wise to those with life experince. The best students/post grads I've worked with have been mature ones who have a bit of life experince before starting uni.

 

There is some truth in what you say and we have experienced this in our recruitment.

 

I did a sandwich course and the 3rd year out in the work place provided valuable experience and certainly changed my attitude. In my 4th year, I had a different (more serious/professional) approach to my studies and by continuing part time with said company in my final year, meant that I went straight into work and earned a decent salary from the off (as this was early 1990's and there was a recession in full swing, it made my life so much easier). The sandwich year also gave me the opportunity to clear down the debt accumulated in the first couple of years.

Edited 14 December, 2010 by Johnny Bognor

[doddisalegend]

Yes, extrapolating from your personal experience makes all your generalisations true.

 

15 years of working with them is good enough for me, as as you can see I used the word most not all I'm sure you can dig up some examples of excellent 21 year old students you've worked with and if you can good for you doesn't make my experiences any less valid .

[Jonnyboy]

There is some truth in what you say and we have experienced this in our recruitment.

 

I did a sandwich course and the 3rd year out in the work place provided valuable experience and certainly changed my attitude. In my 4th year, I had a different (more serious/professional) approach to my studies and by continuing part time with said company in my final year, meant that I went straight into work and earned a decent salary from the off (as this was early 1990's and there was a recession in full swing, it made my life so much easier). The sandwich year also gave me the opportunity to clear down the debt accumulated in the first couple of years.

 

So despite a recession being on you had the benefits of a free university education? Tough life eh?

[Johnny Bognor]

So despite a recession being on you had the benefits of a free university education? Tough life eh?

 

 

But I am more than paying back my debt to society in spades, so I guess I was a worthwhile investment.

[buctootim]

But I am more than paying back my debt to society in spades.

 

Which prison are you in Johnny?

[Verbal]

15 years of working with them is good enough for me, as as you can see I used the word most not all I'm sure you can dig up some examples of excellent 21 year old students you've worked with and if you can good for you doesn't make my experiences any less valid .

 

I don't know whether your experiences are 'valid' or not (whatever that means). I was saying you can't generalise to a national picture from them. Were they so poorly taught that they weren't able to punctuate?

[Verbal]

Stanley Fish's demolition of Browne in the New York Times (the comments below the article are quite telling too.)

 

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/13/the-value-of-higher-education-made-literal/

[CB Saint]

No it isn't. If you can't get your head around that you shouldn't be going to uni anyway. Most of these same kids would say they want a mortgage, a much larger loan on commercially "harder" terms, ASAP.

 

I disagree. When you buy a house, you have something to show for it. With the fees situation you are investing in your future potential earning power. That is much more intangible and I think that is difficult for young people with limited experience of earning money to grasp. Now I get the whole pay it back as you earn it etc, however it is being portrayed as debt and not a graduate tax for that is what is is in reality. I don't think that the government will be able to shift public perception on this as it is too ingrained.

[Johnny Bognor]

Which prison are you in Johnny?

 

The prison of life

[JustMike]

EU Universities to offer degrees to UK students for around £1500 a year (cheaper in some places), lets see what happens but my theory is this rise is a massive mistake by the CONDEM party.

[trousers]

The trouble is at 18yrs old the prospect of £30-£50k debt is mind boggling. Most kids at that age have hardly had any money so asking them to get to grips with the idea that it is an investment for their future is a big ask.

 

Sigh....how many more times do I have to explain this? Here goes explanation no.93....

 

When I started my career in IT at the age of 17 I signed myself up for over 40 years worth of "debt" (to use your word to describe "contributions to the exchequer via PAYE".

 

By the time of my retirement I will have paid somewhere upwards of £750,000 in "debt".

 

Are people seriously saying that I should have looked at this "debt" looming ahead of me and decided that going to work wasn't worth saddling myself with that much future payment to the state?

 

Student fees are a relatively small addtion to someone's PAYE contributions.

 

It is not a debt in the usual sense of the word. i.e. Nobody has been given a wad of cash by a creditor.

 

Let's get some logic into this debate rather than scaremongering sensationalism.

 

No? Ok...back to the irrational bun fight then...

[trousers]

EU Universities to offer degrees to UK students for around £1500 a year (cheaper in some places), lets see what happens but my theory is this rise is a massive mistake by the CONDEM party.

 

"CONDEM" - hehe, makes me chortle everytime that one.

[trousers]

I disagree. When you buy a house, you have something to show for it. With the fees situation you are investing in your future potential earning power. That is much more intangible and I think that is difficult for young people with limited experience of earning money to grasp.

 

Eh? Aren't we talking about the brightest students here? They really don't understand basic economics? And here was me thinking that Labour had elevated education standards over the last 13 years...

[trousers]

In other words....

 

Saying to a prospective university student: "you'll be in debt by £30,000 if you go to university" sounds worse than: "you'll be in debt by £780,000 rather than £750,000 if you go to university".

 

One word: perspective

[Verbal]

Eh? Aren't we talking about the brightest students here? They really don't understand basic economics? And here was me thinking that Labour had elevated education standards over the last 13 years...

 

Well if they're the brightest of the bright they go to Oxford and do 'PPE' (Politics, Philosophy and Economics), not economics. This trains them to see the world in a less disconnected way. Higher education, they'll learn, is both a public good and a private benefit. The public good is easy enough to see, because without it, this country would be about on a par with Albania as an an economic powerhouse. The country benefits hugely from the training and development of a kind of intellectual gene pool. There is a strong correlation between the percentage of people who have a university education and prosperity. (The US educates a higher proportion than us; a powerful tiger economy like S Korea educates 80% of its 21 year olds to university standard).

 

But it's precisely because higher education has been seen as both a private benefit and a public good that there has never been a popular challenge to the idea of meeting many of the costs of universities out of grants from general taxation. Like it or not, the taxes you pay as non-uni goers actually helps you - among other things by not being stuck in a country which had fallen into a 1950s rot by idiotically defying the economic laws of gravity by dismantling its (extraordinarily good) university system.

 

One of the corollaries of 'public good' is that universities should attract the brightest talents - whatever their circumstances. In other words, universities must be about equality of opportunity. The problem is, we live in a class-ridden society, so that's not easy. Working class parents, and their offspring, tend to view money owing as debt; middle class people do not. It's why for example middle class people tend to take out large mortgages, because they see it (sometimes very foolishly) as a no-lose investment, not debt. There is no right or wrong in this. A tax to you is a debt to someone else. It's an economically rational decision to make NOT to go to university and face what looks like a mountain of debt.

 

Seeing it as debt is rational in another way. If the wonderful world laid out for you by a middle class, well-connected upbringing leads you to a 500,000 job, paying off a uni loan is no biggy. If however you bump along at 21,000, the marginal cost is much, much higher. And in a world now where every pennny counts, that's going to look very much like a cost you want to avoid. If you think this has NO consequences for social mobility - ie that the brightest have the best educational opportunities regardless of class or income - you are very, very wrong.

 

So trousers, all you're proving with your exasperated 'why don't people see what I see' argument, is that you're deeply middle class. End - as they say in these parts - of.

Edited 15 December, 2010 by Verbal

[OldNick]

Surely we should concentrate on getting the brightest kids to university. Spend the resources on the sciences, medicine and engineering then get the rest out to work, you can have as many ologies as you want but in the main they are worthless to an employer. There would be no need for grants as it could then be free as the wasters would be out at work earning tax to pay for their peers, who really do need to be at University. Yes it would mean lots of job losses, imagine all the student bars/clubs/pubs around the city having to close.

Some of the less important courses could be run, but slimmed down.

The 3-5 years a lot of the average students do is wasted when they could be getting a sprint on against the Uni students as they could show their experience in different professions and that would be a bonus.....as for gap years Lol, if the lazy sods worked in the gap year they could pay the grant off.

[doddisalegend]

I don't know whether your experiences are 'valid' or not (whatever that means). I was saying you can't generalise to a national picture from them. Were they so poorly taught that they weren't able to punctuate?

 

a) Maybe you should of said that then. Instead of trying to go for the sarky put down.

 

b) At want point did I say that my experinces had anything to do with the national picture?

 

c) My life experinces have an effect on my opinions. Do yours not? I've read through this thread and you've had a lot to say on this subject. I don't know you verbal but you're very knowledgeable about this subject so I'm assuming you've spent a lot of time in HE (judging by the amount of times you've mentioned it I'm assuming Oxford) you've probably had to deal with 100s if not 1000s of students every day over many years and quite clearly have met many examples of fine upstanding young people with a thirst for knowledge and life. I'm quite sure this being the case helps to shape your opinions on this subject.

 

d) I'm well aware my grasp of the English lanaguage is poor, It come from having dyslexia. Sadly I grew up in a time when such things were little reconisged being 14 before it was discovered. I have tried very hard since that time to overcome it however even now my written language skills are below par. At one time people taking a pop about would have bothered me but being in my thirties and having done alright for myself (own house, management level job and great kids the whole middle class dream) I now find it quite funny (and a little sad) that people try to use it to prove some sort of superoity over me.

[trousers]

So trousers, all you're proving with your exasperated 'why don't people see what I see' argument, is that you're deeply middle class. End - as they say in these parts - of.

 

P'yŏngyang ?

 

;-)

[Verbal]

P'yŏngyang ?

 

;-)

 

The socialist republic of chiswick.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

There is some truth in what you say and we have experienced this in our recruitment.

 

I did a sandwich course and the 3rd year out in the work place provided valuable experience and certainly changed my attitude. In my 4th year, I had a different (more serious/professional) approach to my studies and by continuing part time with said company in my final year, meant that I went straight into work and earned a decent salary from the off (as this was early 1990's and there was a recession in full swing, it made my life so much easier). The sandwich year also gave me the opportunity to clear down the debt accumulated in the first couple of years.

 

Exactly the same with me.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

a) Maybe you should of said that then. Instead of trying to go for the sarky put down.

 

b) At want point did I say that my experinces had anything to do with the national picture?

 

c) My life experinces have an effect on my opinions. Do yours not? I've read through this thread and you've had a lot to say on this subject. I don't know you verbal but you're very knowledgeable about this subject so I'm assuming you've spent a lot of time in HE (judging by the amount of times you've mentioned it I'm assuming Oxford) you've probably had to deal with 100s if not 1000s of students every day over many years and quite clearly have met many examples of fine upstanding young people with a thirst for knowledge and life. I'm quite sure this being the case helps to shape your opinions on this subject.

 

d) I'm well aware my grasp of the English lanaguage is poor, It come from having dyslexia. Sadly I grew up in a time when such things were little reconisged being 14 before it was discovered. I have tried very hard since that time to overcome it however even now my written language skills are below par. At one time people taking a pop about would have bothered me but being in my thirties and having done alright for myself (own house, management level job and great kids the whole middle class dream) I now find it quite funny (and a little sad) that people try to use it to prove some sort of superoity over me.

 

If you want to know what Verbal looks like:

 

[Verbal]

Dibden you're a sweetheart. Shame that's not my best side.

[bridge too far]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11989773

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11998992

[scotty]

The trouble is at 18yrs old the prospect of £30-£50k debt is mind boggling. Most kids at that age have hardly had any money so asking them to get to grips with the idea that it is an investment for their future is a big ask.

 

University students are supposed to be the cream of the crop, which is why they are 'going to university/get a degree/pay taxes later/subsequently earn more money' than the rest of us. If they cant understand that then perhaps they shouldnt be considering the university option.

[Jonnyboy]

But I am more than paying back my debt to society in spades, so I guess I was a worthwhile investment.

 

And future graduates will pay back even more

[doddisalegend]

And future graduates will pay back even more

 

well yeah, can't really do much to change that though without time travel, are you suggesting we make gradutes now pay say the same debt as a student of the class of 1960? Life keeps changing there is no point complaining about how easy previous generations had it. At what point did people start assuming life has to be fair all the time? It isn't, has never been and probably never will be.

[Jonnyboy]

Well if they're the brightest of the bright they go to Oxford and do 'PPE' (Politics, Philosophy and Economics), not economics. This trains them to see the world in a less disconnected way. Higher education, they'll learn, is both a public good and a private benefit. The public good is easy enough to see, because without it, this country would be about on a par with Albania as an an economic powerhouse. The country benefits hugely from the training and development of a kind of intellectual gene pool. There is a strong correlation between the percentage of people who have a university education and prosperity. (The US educates a higher proportion than us; a powerful tiger economy like S Korea educates 80% of its 21 year olds to university standard).

But it's precisely because higher education has been seen as both a private benefit and a public good that there has never been a popular challenge to the idea of meeting many of the costs of universities out of grants from general taxation. Like it or not, the taxes you pay as non-uni goers actually helps you - among other things by not being stuck in a country which had fallen into a 1950s rot by idiotically defying the economic laws of gravity by dismantling its (extraordinarily good) university system.

 

One of the corollaries of 'public good' is that universities should attract the brightest talents - whatever their circumstances. In other words, universities must be about equality of opportunity. The problem is, we live in a class-ridden society, so that's not easy. Working class parents, and their offspring, tend to view money owing as debt; middle class people do not. It's why for example middle class people tend to take out large mortgages, because they see it (sometimes very foolishly) as a no-lose investment, not debt. There is no right or wrong in this. A tax to you is a debt to someone else. It's an economically rational decision to make NOT to go to university and face what looks like a mountain of debt.

 

Seeing it as debt is rational in another way. If the wonderful world laid out for you by a middle class, well-connected upbringing leads you to a 500,000 job, paying off a uni loan is no biggy. If however you bump along at 21,000, the marginal cost is much, much higher. And in a world now where every pennny counts, that's going to look very much like a cost you want to avoid. If you think this has NO consequences for social mobility - ie that the brightest have the best educational opportunities regardless of class or income - you are very, very wrong.

 

So trousers, all you're proving with your exasperated 'why don't people see what I see' argument, is that you're deeply middle class. End - as they say in these parts - of.

 

A thread ending key point!

 

Time to lock this one please mods, weve finished up here.

[Jonnyboy]

well yeah, can't really do much to change that though without time travel, are you suggesting we make gradutes now pay say the same debt as a student of the class of 1960? Life keeps changing there is no point complaining about how easy previous generations had it. At what point did people start assuming life has to be fair all the time? It isn't, has never been and probably never will be.

 

oh ok one more then - the good old tory battlecry! Shame Dave Camerons spin team wont let him rattle that one out at PMQs

[Gingeletiss]

A thread ending key point!

 

Time to lock this one please mods, weve finished up here.

 

Why?

 

A lot of our 'graduates' end up doing mundane jobs...why? because their degrees arn't worth the paper they are printed on. I'd also like to raise this notion of peacefull protest. How was it, that students went on this so called peacefull protest, with the means to cover their faces so as not to reckonised. If they had intended to be peacefull, then they would have nothing to fear from the police or media.

[CB Saint]

Sigh....how many more times do I have to explain this? Here goes explanation no.93....

 

When I started my career in IT at the age of 17 I signed myself up for over 40 years worth of "debt" (to use your word to describe "contributions to the exchequer via PAYE".

 

By the time of my retirement I will have paid somewhere upwards of £750,000 in "debt".

 

Are people seriously saying that I should have looked at this "debt" looming ahead of me and decided that going to work wasn't worth saddling myself with that much future payment to the state?

 

Student fees are a relatively small addtion to someone's PAYE contributions.

 

It is not a debt in the usual sense of the word. i.e. Nobody has been given a wad of cash by a creditor.

 

Let's get some logic into this debate rather than scaremongering sensationalism.

 

No? Ok...back to the irrational bun fight then...

 

I get your point. The issue is that the general public perception is that it is debt, and until this changes then your entirely rational explaination of the scheme will be lost in the noise.

 

Christ, I beginning to sound like a leftie I am going to exile myself from this thread for a while before I am beyond redemption.

[Verbal]

a) Maybe you should of said that then. Instead of trying to go for the sarky put down.

 

b) At want point did I say that my experinces had anything to do with the national picture?

 

c) My life experinces have an effect on my opinions. Do yours not? I've read through this thread and you've had a lot to say on this subject. I don't know you verbal but you're very knowledgeable about this subject so I'm assuming you've spent a lot of time in HE (judging by the amount of times you've mentioned it I'm assuming Oxford) you've probably had to deal with 100s if not 1000s of students every day over many years and quite clearly have met many examples of fine upstanding young people with a thirst for knowledge and life. I'm quite sure this being the case helps to shape your opinions on this subject.

 

d) I'm well aware my grasp of the English lanaguage is poor, It come from having dyslexia. Sadly I grew up in a time when such things were little reconisged being 14 before it was discovered. I have tried very hard since that time to overcome it however even now my written language skills are below par. At one time people taking a pop about would have bothered me but being in my thirties and having done alright for myself (own house, management level job and great kids the whole middle class dream) I now find it quite funny (and a little sad) that people try to use it to prove some sort of superoity over me.

 

Frankly, you really are hoist by your own petard on this. If you complain about students' educational standards and then post punctuation-free paragraphs, you could easily be accused of not fully understanding the root causes of whatever it is you didn't like about them.

[Verbal]

Why?

 

A lot of our 'graduates' end up doing mundane jobs...why? because their degrees arn't worth the paper they are printed on. I'd also like to raise this notion of peacefull protest. How was it, that students went on this so called peacefull protest, with the means to cover their faces so as not to reckonised. If they had intended to be peacefull, then they would have nothing to fear from the police or media.

 

It's really beside the point - and a tad too much clutching at stereotypical straws. The correlation between rates of college/university education and prosperity exists because - in the main - graduates have developed their intellectual skills more than non-graduates in such a way - generally - that they are able to parlay these skills into new businesses, innovation, paying jobs, etc. It's a bell curve argument - and doesn't have a damned thing to do with your or my petty prejudices.

[doddisalegend]

Frankly, you really are hoist by your own petard on this. If you complain about students' educational standards and then post punctuation-free paragraphs, you could easily be accused of not fully understanding the root causes of whatever it is you didn't like about them.

 

So becuase I'm a dyslexic who struggles with written English I'm incapable of understanding? Wow just wow that is really funny.

[doddisalegend]

oh ok one more then - the good old tory battlecry! Shame Dave Camerons spin team wont let him rattle that one out at PMQs

 

What are you talking about there is nothing political in that statement. Life is not fair. Fair is a human concept one that usually means "I'm not getting what I want". Show me a fair system for fees then. Bearing in mind it must be fair to every single person in the uk. From youngest to oldest it must treat everyone who has been, is right now and will ever want to go to university the same. It must treat those that get better paid jobs the same as those that get bad jobs after uni. It must also be totally fair to all those that choose not to go to uni as well. Show me this holy grail of fairness, if you can I'll be the first to sign up.

[Verbal]

So becuase I'm a dyslexic who struggles with written English I'm incapable of understanding? Wow just wow that is really funny.

 

No, you're incapability to understand my point has nothing whatsoever to do with your dyslexia.

[Verbal]

What are you talking about there is nothing political in that statement. Life is not fair. Fair is a human concept one that usually means "I'm not getting what I want". Show me a fair system for fees then. Bearing in mind it must be fair to every single person in the uk. From youngest to oldest it must treat everyone who has been, is right now and will ever want to go to university the same. It must treat those that get better paid jobs the same as those that get bad jobs after uni. It must also be totally fair to all those that choose not to go to uni as well. Show me this holy grail of fairness, if you can I'll be the first to sign up.

 

'Fair' is one of those idiotic terms favoured by LibDem spinners and their like. It is different from notions of 'justice' because it is essentially meaningless - or can be twisted to mean whatever you want it to. Why you should tie it to your life-philosophy of utter hopelessness is perfectly understandable. But did you ever in your life think things were worth changing - or at least trying to change them?

[doddisalegend]

'Fair' is one of those idiotic terms favoured by LibDem spinners and their like. It is different from notions of 'justice' because it is essentially meaningless - or can be twisted to mean whatever you want it to. Why you should tie it to your is perfectly understandable. But did you ever in your life think things were worth changing - or at least trying to change them?

 

yet again my statement has nothing to do with politics, not lib dem, con or any other. Can anyone point me to a totally fair or (just if you prefer) system in this world. Where everyone is treated exactly the same regardless of age, health, gender where you live in the world I find it unlikely.

 

As for the rest you're obviously a far better human than me verbal (in fact I look forward to being regaled with stories of your world changing deeds). General I try to live a good life I'll help people who need help, I'm kind to animals and children (even students), I give to charity when I can afford it but most of all I look after me and mine. That is how it is in the real world call utter hoplessness if you like I call it being a realist.

Edited 16 December, 2010 by doddisalegend

[doddisalegend]

No, you're incapability to understand my point has nothing whatsoever to do with your dyslexia.

 

No out of my entire reply you managed to focus on my poor English skills to try invaldate my opinions. Tells me all I need to know about you really.