Students

[Thedelldays]

It's still a debt regardless of how you pay it back, and either students will be put off or they won't, you seem to contradict yourself.

 

what about the poorest of the poor who had no hope of paying any upfront fees..?

[aintforever]

what about the poorest of the poor who had no hope of paying any upfront fees..?

 

I think you will find they qualify for a grant at the moment, I'm not sure. Give me an example...

[Smirking_Saint]

It's still a debt regardless of how you pay it back, and either students will be put off or they won't, you seem to contradict yourself.

 

I wish i could pay my debts back at about £90 pa and that are written off after 30 years. Especially ones that allow me to progress and earn more money.

[bridge too far]

One thing worth thinking about is how a student's aquired debt will affect his / her hope of getting on the property ladder in years to come.

 

I heard the other day that mortgage providers have ditched the old 3 x salary when calculating how much someone can borrow and they now look at outgoings and debts.

 

So if someone graduates owing at least £30K, even if they earn just about enough to start to pay it off, that debt will be set against any mortgage they might seek to achieve.

 

I wonder how that will affect the housing market?

[Thedelldays]

One thing worth thinking about is how a student's aquired debt will affect his / her hope of getting on the property ladder in years to come.

 

I heard the other day that mortgage providers have ditched the old 3 x salary when calculating how much someone can borrow and they now look at outgoings and debts.

 

So if someone graduates owing at least £30K, even if they earn just about enough to start to pay it off, that debt will be set against any mortgage they might seek to achieve.

 

I wonder how that will affect the housing market?

what about those who dont go to uni...and their hopes of getting on the property market...why just worry about them..?

[Verbal]

what about the poorest of the poor who had no hope of paying any upfront fees..?

 

They don't now, under the present system.

[Colinjb]

One thing worth thinking about is how a student's aquired debt will affect his / her hope of getting on the property ladder in years to come.

 

I heard the other day that mortgage providers have ditched the old 3 x salary when calculating how much someone can borrow and they now look at outgoings and debts.

 

So if someone graduates owing at least £30K, even if they earn just about enough to start to pay it off, that debt will be set against any mortgage they might seek to achieve.

 

I wonder how that will affect the housing market?

 

I graduated owing about 12k, student loans were not even part of the conversation when I negotiated my first mortgage. It would make far more sense for it to be included.

[Thedelldays]

They don't now, under the present system.

 

so..no one pays any up front fees at all...some must NOT go to uni because they cant afford the upfront fees..?

 

(i am genuinely asking here..?)

[bridge too far]

what about those who dont go to uni...and their hopes of getting on the property market...why just worry about them..?

 

See - you're off again! Where did I say I 'worried'? I was pointing out a potential issue that has been raised by other people outside this forum and then asking a question.

[Smirking_Saint]

One thing worth thinking about is how a student's aquired debt will affect his / her hope of getting on the property ladder in years to come.

 

I heard the other day that mortgage providers have ditched the old 3 x salary when calculating how much someone can borrow and they now look at outgoings and debts.

 

So if someone graduates owing at least £30K, even if they earn just about enough to start to pay it off, that debt will be set against any mortgage they might seek to achieve.

 

I wonder how that will affect the housing market?

 

I wonder also how the difference is between earning 17k a year as a clark or nearly 70k-80k a year after graduating with engineering, medical, science degrees etc ??

 

I would imagine these will be taken into account.

 

Also i believe that currently this way of calculating affordability is done by looking at peoples outgoings, so for instance, at the very harshest of pay back terms that are introduced that means that about 11.5k is paid back when earning 150k then essentially it is only 7.6% of earnings, so not really too damaging IMO

[Colinjb]

so..no one pays any up front fees at all...some must NOT go to uni because they cant afford the upfront fees..?

 

(i am genuinely asking here..?)

 

I did. £700 per term.

[Verbal]

so..no one pays any up front fees at all...some must NOT go to uni because they cant afford the upfront fees..?

 

(i am genuinely asking here..?)

 

Some pay upfront fees - the sons and daughters of people rich enough to keep their children out of debt, or those who can afford it and don't want to go into debt. Those who decide not to go for financial reasons do so not because of upfront fees, which don't exist under the present loan arrangements, but because of fear of debt.

[Thedelldays]

Some pay upfront fees - the sons and daughters of people rich enough to keep their children out of debt. Those who decide not to go for financial reasons do so not because of upfront fees, which don't exist, but because of fear of debt.

 

so..only the rich pay upfront fees..

define "rich"

[bridge too far]

I wonder also how the difference is between earning 17k a year as a clark or nearly 70k-80k a year after graduating with engineering, medical, science degrees etc ??

 

I would imagine these will be taken into account.

 

Also i believe that currently this way of calculating affordability is done by looking at peoples outgoings, so for instance, at the very harshest of pay back terms that are introduced that means that about 11.5k is paid back when earning 150k then essentially it is only 7.6% of earnings, so not really too damaging IMO

 

I think you'll find it's 'clerk', not 'clark' but pedantry aside, the mortgage advisor I heard on the radio a couple of days definitely referred to accrued debt as well as outgoings.

[Smirking_Saint]

Some pay upfront fees - the sons and daughters of people rich enough to keep their children out of debt. Those who decide not to go for financial reasons do so not because of upfront fees, which don't exist, but because of fear of debt.

 

But that is a choice in life, and eventually you are judged on choices, if someone chooses not to go to uni because they do not want to be in debt (no matter how favourable the repayment terms) then IMO they are failing to make the right choices in life and lack the real ambition and drive to take them to the top anyway.

[aintforever]

I wish i could pay my debts back at about £90 pa and that are written off after 30 years. Especially ones that allow me to progress and earn more money.

 

So would I.

 

All i know is that if I had just finished my A levels now, I wouldn't go to uni.

 

When I went it was free, I received a grant, my parents helped with the rent, I also had a job - and I still ended up in debt. After 3 years of living like a scumbag and hard work I got a good degree and now earn decent money doing a job I enjoy but many of my mates who didn't go to uni still earn more.

 

It was hard enough spending 3 years living like a tramp watching my mates earn decent cash, but to do so knowing I would be upto 50K more in debt than them at the end of it - no way. Don't forget being a student you now have the fees debt piled on top of your living costs debt (real debt), overdrafts (which the bank call in), credit cards ect

[Verbal]

But that is a choice in life, and eventually you are judged on choices, if someone chooses not to go to uni because they do not want to be in debt (no matter how favourable the repayment terms) then IMO they are failing to make the right choices in life and lack the real ambition and drive to take them to the top anyway.

 

Well of course. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head. But it can easily come down to a class thing. Children of working class parents will more likely than their middle class competitors be under some pressure not to go into debt.

[Smirking_Saint]

I think you'll find it's 'clerk', not 'clark' but pedantry aside, the mortgage advisor I heard on the radio a couple of days definitely referred to accrued debt as well as outgoings.

 

Lets not turn into the old pedantry and cyber grammar, i haven't got a problem with you BTF and never had but it is pedantry that would get peoples backs up, this is a forum, i am not writing a white paper, training notes or an engineering report.

 

It depends who you talk to i think, having spoken recently to my financial advisor when looking into getting a new mortgage he said all they are worried about is how much you are paying back per month in relation to what you are bringing in and realistically the real stumbling block these days is finding the deposit in the first place.

[Jonnyboy]

I wish i could pay my debts back at about £90 pa and that are written off after 30 years. Especially ones that allow me to progress and earn more money.

 

Thats lucky you got all your training for free then isnt it?

[Jonnyboy]

"****ey bankers" lol

 

[Verbal]

Lets not turn into the old pedantry and cyber grammar, i haven't got a problem with you BTF and never had but it is pedantry that would get peoples backs up, this is a forum, i am not writing a white paper, training notes or an engineering report.

 

It depends who you talk to i think, having spoken recently to my financial advisor when looking into getting a new mortgage he said all they are worried about is how much you are paying back per month in relation to what you are bringing in and realistically the real stumbling block these days is finding the deposit in the first place.

 

As aintforever quite rightly says, the debts are real. Living and other costs can easily double the debt, and are by no means fully covered by student loans at the moment. These are quite serious debts, contrary to the trousers wing of the Tory Party.

[Thedelldays]

verbal...please define "rich" in that who pay upfront fees...and where the line is where they dont have to (at the mo)

[Verbal]

verbal...please define "rich" in that who pay upfront fees...and where the line is where they dont have to (at the mo)

 

How long is a piece of string? People I know who pay up front are all from double-income families - for example a consultant pathologist married to a senior civil servant. I'd guess their disposable income at £100,000 odd. You could generalise and say it's all the people who can afford to pay private school fees - it wouldn't be strictly true but near enough maybe.

[Thedelldays]

How long is a piece of string? People I know who pay up front are all from double-income families - for example a consultant pathologist married to a senior civil servant. I'd guess their disposable income at £100,000 odd. You could generalise and say it's all the people who can afford to pay private school fees - it wouldn't be strictly true but near enough maybe.

 

so...you dont know at all if people are put off uni because of the up front fees...?

[trousers]

It's still a debt regardless of how you pay it back, and either students will be put off or they won't, you seem to contradict yourself.

 

Me? Contradict myself? Nah, never....that would make me a hypocrite.... ;-)

 

So, are we in agreement then that any money that you are compelled to pay the chancellor of the exchequer in the future can be labelled a "debt"?

 

We wouldn't want to be inconsistent, would we?

 

I'm currently £420,000 in "debt"...

[trousers]

How long is a piece of string? People I know who pay up front are all from double-income families - for example a consultant pathologist married to a senior civil servant. I'd guess their disposable income at £100,000 odd. You could generalise and say it's all the people who can afford to pay private school fees - it wouldn't be strictly true but near enough maybe.

 

I send my daughter to private school but have had to sacrifice holidays and don't have any disposable income left. So, you're correct...it's not strictly true...

[Smirking_Saint]

So would I.

 

All i know is that if I had just finished my A levels now, I wouldn't go to uni.

 

When I went it was free, I received a grant, my parents helped with the rent, I also had a job - and I still ended up in debt. After 3 years of living like a scumbag and hard work I got a good degree and now earn decent money doing a job I enjoy but many of my mates who didn't go to uni still earn more.

 

It was hard enough spending 3 years living like a tramp watching my mates earn decent cash, but to do so knowing I would be upto 50K more in debt than them at the end of it - no way. Don't forget being a student you now have the fees debt piled on top of your living costs debt (real debt), overdrafts (which the bank call in), credit cards ect

 

But this is the point. No matter how you look at it (and i have a feeling i will be shot down for this) is that Universtities SHOULD be an elitist thing and recieving a degree SHOULD be to those that are genuinely in the top whatever % of the country. The problem with the rules at the moment is that anyone can go to university to study andything they want and probably still come out with a degree at the end of it.

 

This seriously waters down the pool and grading systems that can be used by employers. Sure you can still discriminate between the different degrees and argue about the difficulty of some other than another but you cannot argue the fact that at the very very least probably 60% of 'students' are at university with absolutely no intention of getting a decent job at the end of it. They are just there for the atmosphere, with a little work on the side.

 

And what you have said is THE point i am trying to make, a choice is made by weighing up the positives and negatives and so you look at potential jobs, try and judge the likelyhood you will get the job at the end and weigh up the cost compared to the outcome. Would i go to Uni and accrue 50k worth of debt for a history or media studies degree ? No

 

In fact when i left college with my A levels i wanted to be a football coach and so i looked at doing sports science, did a bit of research and found out that only a very small amount of people that graduated actually found a job and the wages were not great. I am glad i didn't do that. I looked at what i was good at, electrics and stuck to that. Did an apprenticeship, then went to where i am now and did a technical trainee role. One that enabled me to be paid to gain a degree and a garanteed job at the end along with a contracted pay scale/bonuses and future plan as to where i should be promoted to. I had to take a pay cut and slum it for 2 years but it all worked out.

 

Life is about choices, i do feel sorry for you (not condescending) that things have not worked out and you have seen your mates earn more, but do they work longer ? Do sh*ttier work ? I, personally feel that the main cause for frustration is not that the 'free' education is being taken away but that the majority now do not get a free '**** up' for the next 4-5 years.

[Verbal]

Actually, what a lot of rich parents do - the capitalists among you, no doubt - is take the student loans at their ridiculously cheap rates, pocket them themselves and pay the 'up front fees' Hey presto, amazingly cheap money. This will be a growing problem now that the terms have been made increasingly favourable by the changes enforced by the Libs. Meanwhile, fewer poorer students will go to university as a result of these increases. Social mobility - which was going backwards anyway - will now be heading for the buffers.

[trousers]

The coalition policy is causing companies to re-think their intake policy - i.e. Consider more school leavers than university graduates.

 

Surely that's making things LESS elitist....?

[Smirking_Saint]

Thats lucky you got all your training for free then isnt it?

 

Paid for actually but thats not the point Jonny.

 

Its not actually a debt.

 

Let me put it simpler. If i was your boss for instance, and i said to you. Do this course, it will cost you 10k but you will then triple your wages and you could pay it off at 7% of your yearly salary, would you do it ??

[trousers]

Paid for actually but thats not the point Jonny.

 

Its not actually a debt.

 

Let me put it simpler. If i was your boss for instance, and i said to you. Do this course, it will cost you 10k but you will then triple your wages and you could pay it off at 7% of your yearly salary, would you do it ??

 

Exactly

[trousers]

As aintforever quite rightly says, the debts are real. Living and other costs can easily double the debt, and are by no means fully covered by student loans at the moment. These are quite serious debts, contrary to the trousers wing of the Tory Party.

 

"Oh no they're not!"

 

(which end of the horse would you like to be sir?)

 

;-)

[Verbal]

The coalition policy is causing companies to re-think their intake policy - i.e. Consider more school leavers than university graduates.

 

Surely that's making things LESS elitist....?

 

But no one is getting into debt trousers. There won't be anyone for them to hoover up. You can't have it both ways.

[Smirking_Saint]

As aintforever quite rightly says, the debts are real. Living and other costs can easily double the debt, and are by no means fully covered by student loans at the moment. These are quite serious debts, contrary to the trousers wing of the Tory Party.

 

Whilst i agree, it must be hard in terms of fees for living etc. Is it really up to the state to pay for this ??

 

That is just another choice, is it a. i like it in bournemouth but i will have to pay an extra X amount or B. Southampton Uni still do the course and i will be able to save X amount living with mummy and daddy ?

[trousers]

But no one is getting into debt trousers. There won't be anyone for them to hoover up. You can't have it both ways.

 

Are you my wife?

[Verbal]

Whilst i agree, it must be hard in terms of fees for living etc. Is it really up to the state to pay for this ??

 

That is just another choice, is it a. i like it in bournemouth but i will have to pay an extra X amount or B. Southampton Uni still do the course and i will be able to save X amount living with mummy and daddy ?

 

It's a reasonable debate to have, and you may be right. But the reality is the debts are serious, and many have to be paid back quickly and/or at high interest rates compared to what will be on offer from the student loans co. This will have an effect on social mobility.

[aintforever]

But this is the point. No matter how you look at it (and i have a feeling i will be shot down for this) is that Universtities SHOULD be an elitist thing and recieving a degree SHOULD be to those that are genuinely in the top whatever % of the country. The problem with the rules at the moment is that anyone can go to university to study andything they want and probably still come out with a degree at the end of it.

 

This seriously waters down the pool and grading systems that can be used by employers. Sure you can still discriminate between the different degrees and argue about the difficulty of some other than another but you cannot argue the fact that at the very very least probably 60% of 'students' are at university with absolutely no intention of getting a decent job at the end of it. They are just there for the atmosphere, with a little work on the side.

 

And what you have said is THE point i am trying to make, a choice is made by weighing up the positives and negatives and so you look at potential jobs, try and judge the likelyhood you will get the job at the end and weigh up the cost compared to the outcome. Would i go to Uni and accrue 50k worth of debt for a history or media studies degree ? No

 

In fact when i left college with my A levels i wanted to be a football coach and so i looked at doing sports science, did a bit of research and found out that only a very small amount of people that graduated actually found a job and the wages were not great. I am glad i didn't do that. I looked at what i was good at, electrics and stuck to that. Did an apprenticeship, then went to where i am now and did a technical trainee role. One that enabled me to be paid to gain a degree and a garanteed job at the end along with a contracted pay scale/bonuses and future plan as to where i should be promoted to. I had to take a pay cut and slum it for 2 years but it all worked out.

 

Life is about choices, i do feel sorry for you (not condescending) that things have not worked out and you have seen your mates earn more, but do they work longer ? Do sh*ttier work ? I, personally feel that the main cause for frustration is not that the 'free' education is being taken away but that the majority now do not get a free '**** up' for the next 4-5 years.

 

I earn decent money so you don't have to feel sorry for me, my mates who earn more all have their own companies.

 

The elitist thing is fine, I agree, just don't think it should be decided by wealth.

[Verbal]

Are you my wife?

 

No dear. Now shut up and do the ironing.

[trousers]

No dear. Now shut up and do the ironing.

 

:-))

[Smirking_Saint]

It's a reasonable debate to have, and you may be right. But the reality is the debts are serious, and many have to be paid back quickly and/or at high interest rates compared to what will be on offer from the student loans co. This will have an effect on social mobility.

 

While i am all argueing the merits of tuition fees, that have risen however i believe their pay back rates to be VERY fair IMO compared to the almost certain increase in salary and job prospects (or else why bother going ?)

 

Debts incrued by living away are an entirely different kettle of fish, and yes it may be that those with more money are able to go to the further afield and better universities. But that is life. When i was 18 i couldn't afford private healthcare and my knee took almost 2 years before i could play sports again. If i could afford it then it would have been much less, but i accept that as i cannot afford it.

 

People can bemoan the class system and money all they want, but at the end of the day it rules the world. The rights and wrongs of this is a different debate entirely as we all know communism doesn't work. The idea is to attempt to climb the class system, and the only way to do that (without born talent for something) is to attempt to educate yourselves.

 

Problem is this world is too ingrained in trying to make everyone equal and politically correct etc etc. We are not, and never ever will be, thats nature, so get used to it.

[Colinjb]

Problem is this world is too ingrained in trying to make everyone equal and politically correct etc etc. We are not, and never ever will be, thats nature, so get used to it.

 

Absolutely.

[Smirking_Saint]

I earn decent money so you don't have to feel sorry for me, my mates who earn more all have their own companies.

 

The elitist thing is fine, I agree, just don't think it should be decided by wealth.

 

And IMO the fact that the tuition fees can be paid back so kindly now should, IMO make it easier for people to go to university.

 

Problem is everything is decided by wealth, its a real b*tch but is life.

 

As for your mates making their own companies fair play to them, they entered a risk and it paid off, it may not have and they could be in debt for a failed attempt ? At least you know, whatever happens you are probably more secure financially.

[Verbal]

While i am all argueing the merits of tuition fees, that have risen however i believe their pay back rates to be VERY fair IMO compared to the almost certain increase in salary and job prospects (or else why bother going ?)

 

Debts incrued by living away are an entirely different kettle of fish, and yes it may be that those with more money are able to go to the further afield and better universities. But that is life. When i was 18 i couldn't afford private healthcare and my knee took almost 2 years before i could play sports again. If i could afford it then it would have been much less, but i accept that as i cannot afford it.

 

People can bemoan the class system and money all they want, but at the end of the day it rules the world. The rights and wrongs of this is a different debate entirely as we all know communism doesn't work. The idea is to attempt to climb the class system, and the only way to do that (without born talent for something) is to attempt to educate yourselves.

 

Problem is this world is too ingrained in trying to make everyone equal and politically correct etc etc. We are not, and never ever will be, thats nature, so get used to it.

 

All fair enough. But if this is the case, why aren't the Tories/Libs prepared to debate why this is a good thing? The Tories smirk at the prospect at having Oxbridge to themselves once more, and the Libs whiffle on about how they will socially engineer Oxbridge into behaving differently. They won't. Oxbridge and other good universities will be the ones charging near or at the max of £9000. These will increasingly be a rich-only purgatory. Other universities lower down the food chain will charge progressively lower amounts in fees. so what you'll have is a higher education system that very accurately reflects and reinforces class privileges and depradations.

 

Who is saying this is a good idea? No one - because it would burst their bubble.

Edited 14 December, 2010 by Verbal

[Colinjb]

Who is saying this is a good idea? no one - because it would burst their bubble.

 

The university system itself is a bad idea at the moment. It needs people who have no real need or justification to take higher education to keep on pilling in... filling them with money and perpetuating the debt problem. There are too many university places currently and too many meaningless courses. Vocational learning has become almost unfashionable and should be the future.

 

The problem is that universities now are not an educational peak, they are a way of life.

[Verbal]

the university system itself is a bad idea at the moment. It needs people who have no real need or justification to take higher education to keep on pilling in... Filling them with money and perpetuating the debt problem.

 

The problem is that universities now are not an educational peak, they are a way of life.

 

what?

[Smirking_Saint]

All fair enough. But if this is the case, why aren't the Tories/Libs prepared to debate why this is a good thing? The Tories smirk at the prospect at having Oxbridge to themselves once more, and the Libs whiffle on about how they will social engineer Oxbridge into behaving differently. They won't. Oxbridge and other good universities will be the ones charging near or at the max of £9000. These will increasingly be a rich-only purgatory. Other universities lower down the food chain will charge progressively lower amounts in fees. so what you'll have is a higher education system that very accurately reflects and reinforces class privileges and depradations.

 

Who is saying this is a good idea? no one - because it would burst their bubble.

 

As far as tuition fees are concerned why shouldn't Oxbridge charge more than other Universities though ??

 

If i had the choice between two music teachers, one is new and charges £100 p/h and the other is brilliant and has trained bloody Mozart but charges £300 p/h then i have to make a choice whether the £300 warrants the better standard of education ??

 

Surely its not so much class related but just paying for a better service ?

[Colinjb]

what?

 

I am saying that the whole system is wrong. The issue is deeper then the fees themselves.

[dune]

Just like in 1979 the Conservatives have made tough decisions to pull the country back from the brink of ruin, and just like in 1983 the British public will re-elect them for making the right decisions

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7noHkLaZ5VI

[View From The Top]

And IMO the fact that the tuition fees can be paid back so kindly now should, IMO make it easier for people to go to university.

 

Problem is everything is decided by wealth, its a real b*tch but is life.

 

As for your mates making their own companies fair play to them, they entered a risk and it paid off, it may not have and they could be in debt for a failed attempt ? At least you know, whatever happens you are probably more secure financially.

 

Which sums up everything that is wrong.

 

Ability should be the bellweather for success and a uni place, not the wealth of parents or the genuine fear of a mountain of debt by potential students.

 

It's also unsurprising that the hard of thinking fail to factor in the accured "normal" debts that students will rack up alongside the £30k of liability (paid back on normal terms in addition to fee repayments) but that would involve thought and not just blind acceptance of the government line.

 

Or course, I don't have a clue about anything to do with it, what with only being a HoD in FE.

[Smirking_Saint]

The university system itself is a bad idea at the moment. It needs people who have no real need or justification to take higher education to keep on pilling in... filling them with money and perpetuating the debt problem. There are too many university places currently and too many meaningless courses. Vocational learning has become almost unfashionable and should be the future.

 

The problem is that universities now are not an educational peak, they are a way of life.

 

I do, pretty much agree TBF.

 

Vocational learning should be offered from the ages of 14 onwards IMO and apprenticeships should be offered so that they can be started still under school leaving age. Whats the point of sending some kids that haven't got the ability/drive to be academic and will no doubt fail their GCSE's when they could start training as mechanics, brick layers, pipe fitters, electricians etc and be more engaged by what they want to do and become ?