Students

[Special K]

Unless you're at Oxbridge or UCL or Imperial, I find it hard to believe that NO departments in your university went into clearing. And it's really quite depressing hearing a university staff member trot out the old cliches about film.

 

Training in skills used by Britain’s film industry is now virtually non-existent outside the university sector. So is film a useless subject to study, and is it pointless acquiring relevant skills at university?

 

A new Oxford Economics report estimates that the core film industry in the UK – stripping out ancillary businesses such as tourism and merchandising – contributes £1.6 billion in GDP and £445 million towards the public purse. This means that the core UK film business is worth slightly more in GDP than, say, the British computer manufacturing industry.

 

The UK film industry directly employs around 36,000 (up by 30% since 2000 and 7% since 2006), supporting a total of 100,000 direct and indirect jobs (up from 95,000 in 2007).

 

Inward investment is estimated to account for around £3.6 billion of film’s contribution to GDP and £960 million in Exchequer revenues.

 

Films depicting the UK are responsible for generating around a 10th of overseas tourist revenue, totalling around £1.9 billion a year.

 

Showing UK films on TV helps local broadcasters generate about £245 million of revenues. Total multiplier activity contributes a further £1.6 billion a year to UK GDP and £425 million to UK tax revenues.

 

Merchandising – merchandising associated with UK films supported about 6,600 jobs in 2009 and contributed about £237 million to UK GDP and £107 million to the Exchequer.

 

Fifty eight per cent of the production workforce is university educated.

 

London has a global market share of approximately 20% in VFX work.

 

This is just film, remember - it leaves out the TV and games industries, which are VERY hungry for well-trained graduates.

 

Source: http://www.ukfilmcouncil.org.uk/media/pdf/i/r/The_Economic_Impact_of_the_UK_Film_Industry_-_June_2010.pdf

 

That's all very well, but what "well trained" graduate is going to want to spend their life doing the carpentry or electrical works or decorating or traffic control or burger flipping whatever more menial tasks make up 95% of film set and pre production works in the industry? They go to Uni dreaming of becoming the next Steven Spielberg or Guy Ritchie or (heaven forbid) Julian Fellowes. The opportunity aint there for the numbers of graduates that come out. Maybe they'll be lucky enough to work in post porduction, but there aren't that many jobs there either. Maybe they'll get a script together, but it's pretty much a closed shop getting anything through the door in the first place.

[Gingeletiss]

You have just proved my point you muppet - watching the news shows you what is happening but doesn't show why or put it in any context.

 

 

Wrong...you pratt as we are now at the insult stage yours was a very short sighted viewpoint, I am pointing out that a coin has two sides. I will add, that whilst not defending the police whole heartedly, I do believe, that in general, they only meet violence, with violence IMO the students will get back what they seek to deliver, in spades. If you for one moment, think, that a few thousand spotty faced left wing thinking individuals, will bring down a government, let alone this one, then you are deluded. Carry on with this civil disobedience, and you will lose any support you imagine you have, banning orders will be served on your union before you can utter the words 'kill the copper'. So your choice, it's a battle you will never win.

[aintforever]

Wrong...you pratt as we are now at the insult stage yours was a very short sighted viewpoint, I am pointing out that a coin has two sides. I will add, that whilst not defending the police whole heartedly, I do believe, that in general, they only meet violence, with violence IMO the students will get back what they seek to deliver, in spades. If you for one moment, think, that a few thousand spotty faced left wing thinking individuals, will bring down a government, let alone this one, then you are deluded. Carry on with this civil disobedience, and you will lose any support you imagine you have, banning orders will be served on your union before you can utter the words 'kill the copper'. So your choice, it's a battle you will never win.

 

Why are you banging as if I was there, I've never been on a march, part of civil disobedience or been in a union in my life. I don't consider myself right or left wing. I think you have got your wires crossed somewhere. All I was saying was that there is only so much you can know about what went on by watching the TV.

 

For what it's worth I think this government will bring itself down, the Lib Dem's natural alliances lie with Labour, they will have to jump ship before the next election to save their party IMO.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Why are you banging as if I was there, I've never been on a march, part of civil disobedience or been in a union in my life. I don't consider myself right or left wing. I think you have got your wires crossed somewhere. All I was saying was that there is only so much you can know about what went on by watching the TV.

 

For what it's worth I think this government will bring itself down, the Lib Dem's natural alliances lie with Labour, they will have to jump ship before the next election to save their party IMO.

 

Unfortunately I can see this being true, and that is when I shall emigrate. I do not wish to live under another Labour Government that puts the rights of the ignorant, lazy and stupid above the rest of us.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Unfortunately I can see this being true, and that is when I shall emigrate. I do not wish to live under another Labour Government that puts the rights of the ignorant, lazy and stupid above the rest of us.

 

I wouldn't have said that Bankers were lazy.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Edited, would probably get banned.

[RedAndWhite91]

You will soon have the forum to yourself Stanley you sad pathetic disturbed nazi boy. Maybe then you can bring back your KKK avator.

 

Well done, revert to name calling, I'm guessing you aren't in the Uni debating club?

[AndyNorthernSaints]

After watching the bias mainstream news surrounding the student protests many people feel that it is the protesters who where violent.

The fact of the matter is, the majority were not. Police repeatedly baton charged groups of peaceful protesters,... charged them on horseback trampling many and in one case dragged a disabled protester from their wheelchair and threw them on to the floor.

The worst case how ever is a young man called Alfie Meadows who was stuck so hard on the head by police even though his manor was completely peaceful, that 3 hours later his brain started to bleed and he had to have live saving surgery. to look at which side was really violent you only have to look at the huge numbers of protesters admitted to hospital compared to only a small number of police.

No doubt a lot of people disagree with the acts of damage on buildings. it is unfortunate that students feel this is the only way they can be heard, but time and time the state in this country has overlooked hundreds of thousands of peaceful protesters on the streets. The reality is, no matter how hard it may be for some people to acknowledge this, that illegal actions get a cause noticed and make people take note, after all it worked for the suffragettes, without whom, woman would still be unable to vote.

so please ask yourself are the protesters in the wrong or is it the system in which ignores the wishes and wants of the masses, putting unelected parties in to office, putting the education of the youth of this country in jeopardy and forces by its own making, people who are caring and compassionate to take to the streets, only to be nearly killed by the police.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

Well done, revert to name calling, I'm guessing you aren't in the Uni debating club?

 

Spent four years at university getting Upper Second BA Hons Degree. You?

[dune]

in one case dragged a disabled protester from their wheelchair and threw them on to the floor.

 

Is it on youtube yet?

[RedAndWhite91]

Spent four years at university getting Upper Second BA Hons Degree. You?

 

Yeah but were you in the debating club?

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Spent four years at university getting Upper Second BA Hons Degree. You?

 

What in, talking ****?

[dune]

What in, talking ****?

 

There'll be no Northern Saints embroidered fleece in your stocking now.

[Jonnyboy]

redandwhite your post was interesting but not factually correct. the police do indeed hand out indiscriminate violence if they think they can get away from it.

When I was asked to get in the police van for defending myself i did just that. this happened funnily enough near the houses of parliment at 6pm. I was off in to town from a day shift at the (QAMH Hospital) I was a student nurse at the time>

It was inside the van the police officer lunged foward and booted me in the bollixs. There was no resistence from at all but the **** still kicked me. I wasnt resisting arrested as I had not been arrested . So if you think I am pro police then think again . since that day I have treated them with suspicion. I know im taining all police with the same brush but.....

 

this ones for you

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSvD5SM_uI4

[Jonnyboy]

That's all very well, but what "well trained" graduate is going to want to spend their life doing the carpentry or electrical works or decorating or traffic control or burger flipping whatever more menial tasks make up 95% of film set and pre production works in the industry? They go to Uni dreaming of becoming the next Steven Spielberg or Guy Ritchie or (heaven forbid) Julian Fellowes. The opportunity aint there for the numbers of graduates that come out. Maybe they'll be lucky enough to work in post porduction, but there aren't that many jobs there either. Maybe they'll get a script together, but it's pretty much a closed shop getting anything through the door in the first place.

 

they obviously dont mind or 58% wouldnt be graduates would they?

[Jonnyboy]

What about the copper dragged off the horse and now has serious neck injurys???

 

Funny how that is not big enough news......

 

link?!!

 

the home secreatary said today 6 police were in hospital for minor injuries and have all been released

[Gingeletiss]

After watching the bias mainstream news surrounding the student protests many people feel that it is the protesters who where violent.

The fact of the matter is, the majority were not. Police repeatedly Oh really!! baton charged groups of peaceful protesters,... charged them on horseback trampling many and in one case dragged a disabled protester from their wheelchair and threw them on to the floor.

The worst case how ever is a young man called Alfie Meadows who was stuck so hard on the head by police even though his manor was completely peaceful so you say!, that 3 hours later his brain started to bleed and he had to have live saving surgery. to look at which side was really violent you only have to look at the huge numbers of protesters admitted to hospital compared to only a small number of police.

No doubt a lot of people disagree with the acts of damage on buildings yep, we sure do. it is unfortunate that students feel this is the only way they can be heard, but time and time the state in this country has overlooked hundreds of thousands of peaceful really! protesters on the streets. The reality is, no matter how hard it may be for some people to acknowledge this, that illegal actions get a cause noticed and make people take note, after all it worked for the suffragettes, without whom, woman would still be unable to vote.

so please ask yourself are the protesters in the wrong You bet your life you are!! or [/bis it the system in which ignores the wishes and wants of the masses, putting unelected parties in to office, putting the education of the youth of this country in jeopardy and forces by its own making, people who are caring and compassionate to take to the streets, only to be nearly killed by the police.] What an absolute load of twoddle....ignore the masses lol...unelected party lol....education of the yoof in jeopardy lol, you're doing a good job of that yourselves.....nearly killed by police I agree, next time you attack the Royals, you can expect the close protection police, to maybe let of a few rounds!

 

Did you really read the crap you wrote, do you really believe it....God help this country, if you're an example of our future!!

[RedAndWhite91]

redandwhite your post was interesting but not factually correct. the police do indeed hand out indiscriminate violence if they think they can get away from it.

When I was asked to get in the police van for defending myself i did just that. this happened funnily enough near the houses of parliment at 6pm. I was off in to town from a day shift at the (QAMH Hospital) I was a student nurse at the time>

It was inside the van the police officer lunged foward and booted me in the bollixs. There was no resistence from at all but the **** still kicked me. I wasnt resisting arrested as I had not been arrested . So if you think I am pro police then think again . since that day I have treated them with suspicion. I know im taining all police with the same brush but.....

 

Yeah see that is bang out of order by the old bill, and I'm not denying they do act first, I've seen it at the football, I've been on the end of it abroad, that's not on and it gives them a bad name. However, what I'm saying is, the students have no right to complain after the way they acted and I thought, from what I saw, police handled it well. Of course, the police did dish out a few beatings but as whoever it was said earlier in this thread they're only human and they were under threat. I'd do the same. I'm defending the police giving rioters a truncheon, but giving it out to innocent people like you is not on, and they should be held accountable if that is the case.

[Johnny Bognor]

this ones for you

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSvD5SM_uI4

 

I prefer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M8vei3L0L8

[Saintandy666]

The policy of two different hospitals is based on dumb logic. The logic becomes even dumber when they tried to prevent a kid who was about to die from getting a life saving operation.

[dune]

I prefer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M8vei3L0L8

 

I prefer "maggie for me" - I *think* the song was used in the opening titles of The Long Walk To Finchley and was used in the 1983 election.. I've hunted high and low for it online but can't find it apart from at this link http://www.bbc.co.uk/politics97/background/pastelec/ge83.shtml but the real player link doesn't work.

[Verbal]

That's all very well, but what "well trained" graduate is going to want to spend their life doing the carpentry or electrical works or decorating or traffic control or burger flipping whatever more menial tasks make up 95% of film set and pre production works in the industry? They go to Uni dreaming of becoming the next Steven Spielberg or Guy Ritchie or (heaven forbid) Julian Fellowes. The opportunity aint there for the numbers of graduates that come out. Maybe they'll be lucky enough to work in post porduction, but there aren't that many jobs there either. Maybe they'll get a script together, but it's pretty much a closed shop getting anything through the door in the first place.

 

Well I know this business pretty well. The point is, it's a talent-led industry. If we took the decision only to train exactly the number of people to graduate level we needed the whole thing would go into serious decline. You have no idea what people 'dream' when they go to university - that's just a little fantasy in your peevish little post, that you have some brilliant, omnipotent insight into people's ambitions. You don't. By what measure are there 'not many jobs in postproduction'. At the moment, the talent shortage is bad enough that many post people are imported from abroad in Soho. And what, exactly, is a closed shop? where does 95% come from - give me a source for that little dreamed-up figure.

 

As I say, we're just talking about film here, not the much bigger TV and games industries. And the larger point is that the extremely tedious cliche about people studying 'useless' film and TV is not only stupid; it's potentially damaging to one of this country's great success stories in the creative industries.

[Verbal]

But software and software publishers are the most important part of the IT industry. Look at the worlds most prominent players..... Microsoft, Oracle and even IBM (their software and services are the major part of their business).

 

I think it is very sneaky to big up the film industry, by being very selective over what you compare it against (a specific part of one industry), thus implying that it is bigger than it really is.

 

If you want to get an idea of the size of the film industry, Tesco (just one company) turns over £60 billion which is 40 times larger than the entire film industry....... doesn't look so big now, does it?

 

But that was not the comparison that was being made by OE. You can't just try to criticise an argument and the examples used by simply changing the examples!! The film industry ISN'T big - the creative industries ARE; but film is by no means insignificant. And if you find it 'very sneaky' to 'big up the film industry', ask yourself whose judgement you'd trust - internet warriors like you and me or professional Oxford economists, who know a damned sight more about it than you and me. Or you, anyway.

[Verbal]

Wind yer neck in love. I'm not saying he should be refused treatment, I'm saying that he should have been taken to a different hospital.

 

Then my original comment stands. I find your attitude thuggish.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Then my original comment stands. I find your attitude thuggish.

 

That's ok, I find yours ignorant and naive. Considering the 'Kill the Police' chants going off while I was there I don't believe, considering the number of hospitals in London, that they should be taken to the same place.

 

But I suppose if your prerogative us to create more violence, then yes, perhaps they should go to the same place.

[Johnny Bognor]

But that was not the comparison that was being made by OE. You can't just try to criticise an argument and the examples used by simply changing the examples!!

 

If the example is crap (and it was) then of course I can use factual alternative examples to put it in to perspective. The example given by the UK Film Council was deliberate in elavating the status of their industry. I merely pointed out that to get it into context, Tesco is 4000% larger than said industry which makes it look pretty insignificant.

 

Now if students wanted to do a retail degree, I could understand as there is far more money and far more opportunity within Tesco alone, let alone the rest of the retail industry. In fact, on economic grounds, you could easily argue that they should replace film degrees with degrees in Tescos, as it adds far more to the economy and as most film students will end up stacking shelves in Tesco anyway, at least their qualification will be relevant to what they'll end up doing.

 

The film industry ISN'T big - the creative industries ARE; but film is by no means insignificant.

 

Your damn right it isn't, by my calculations it is the equivalent to 50 tesco stores. Certainly doesn't warrant the number of courses being offered by universities.

 

And if you find it 'very sneaky' to 'big up the film industry', ask yourself whose judgement you'd trust - internet warriors like you and me or professional Oxford economists, who know a damned sight more about it than you and me. Or you, anyway.

 

I am sure any economist, from Oxford to Harvard would agree that Tesco is 4000% larger than the entire UK film industry.

Edited 13 December, 2010 by Johnny Bognor

[buctootim]

Its possible to argue, if anyone could be arsed, that the value of successful British fiilms being shown around the world amounts to more than just the box office income. Its like a commercial break for how great Britain is and how people should spend their money /do business here.

[Verbal]

Its possible to argue, if anyone could be arsed, that the value of successful British fiilms being shown around the world amounts to more than just the box office income. Its like a commercial break for how great Britain is and how people should spend their money /do business here.

 

Which is precisely what the OE report does, among many other things.

[aintforever]

My mate from Uni did film studies and we all took the ****, now he's earning **** loads making TV programmes. Not really an interesting fact but shows how not all film graduates work in the film industry.

 

I wonder how big the UK philosophy industry is, maybe we should scrap all those courses?

 

Universities are about furthering knowledge, they are not job training schemes. I think the less educated on here fail to understand that concept.

[Verbal]

If the example is crap (and it was) then of course I can use factual alternative examples to put it in to perspective. The example given by the UK Film Council was deliberate in elavating the status of their industry. I merely pointed out that to get it into context, Tesco is 4000% larger than said industry which makes it look pretty insignificant.

 

Now if students wanted to do a retail degree, I could understand as there is far more money and far more opportunity within Tesco alone, let alone the rest of the retail industry. In fact, on economic grounds, you could easily argue that they should replace film degrees with degrees in Tescos, as it adds far more to the economy and as most film students will end up stacking shelves in Tesco anyway, at least their qualification will be relevant to what they'll end up doing.

 

 

 

Your damn right it isn't, by my calculations it is the equivalent to 50 tesco stores. Certainly doesn't warrant the number of courses being offered by universities.

 

 

 

I am sure any economist, from Oxford to Harvard would agree that Tesco is 4000% larger than the entire UK film industry.

 

I don't even know where to begin with this tosh. Have you read the report? There is also a skills shortage in many areas of film, TV and games - in fact, games industry is busily heading offshore, partly to because of this. The economic consequences are not exactly great - unless you see a Britain as one giant f**king Tesco.

 

As to what bearing this has on undergraduate courses, it's (of course) much more nuanced than you, especially, could ever imagine - not least because, like English, Economics, Engineering, Chemistry, etc, etc, etc, we do not produce graduates to fit precisely into fixed positions but to add to the intellectual gene pool of the country. Some of the brightest minds in the City have science degrees, not business or finance degrees, for example. Politicians, loathe them or love them, have acquired Humanities and Arts degrees. As have copywriters in another industry at which the UK excels - advertising. Sometimes, of course, it works out as you would presumably want 100% of the time; the young AP photographer who took the infamous picture of Camilla being goosed in the royal caboose has a degree in documentary photography.

[Verbal]

My mate from Uni did film studies and we all took the ****, now he's earning **** loads making TV programmes. Not really an interesting fact but shows how not all film graduates work in the film industry.

 

I wonder how big the UK philosophy industry is, maybe we should scrap all those courses?

 

Universities are about furthering knowledge, they are not job training schemes. I think the less educated on here fail to understand that concept.

 

Quite so. We should really be scrapping those courses in which the outcome is that graduates earn the lowest wages. That will mean axing most science and engineering degrees.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

May has ruled out using water cannons...that has to smart a bit dune?

[Jonnyboy]

We are all units of econimic production. Submit to Tesco. Forget the classic albums and movies you love. Stack those shelves. Do not broaden you mind or knowledge. You can buy the X factor single. That will satisfy you. Look at the adverts. They are beautiful. Forget your degrees. Everything is better here at MacDonalds University, UK PLC. Do not protest or even vote. Individuality is a disability.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

May has ruled out using water cannons...that has to smart a bit dune?

 

The liberals will now, after the next violent protest, criticise the police for not using water cannons. Any excuse...

[Sheaf Saint]

Is it on youtube yet?

 

Yes, they showed the clip on the BBC news earlier. A 20-year-old man with cerebral palsy was dragged from his wheelchair and thrown to the ground by a group of 4 or 5 police officers.

[Johnny Bognor]

I don't even know where to begin with this tosh. Have you read the report? There is also a skills shortage in many areas of film, TV and games - in fact, games industry is busily heading offshore, partly to because of this. The economic consequences are not exactly great - unless you see a Britain as one giant f**king Tesco.

 

You posted an article to big up the film industry. I merely put the industry into perspective. Sorry if that has touched a nerve, but an industry that is the equivalent to 50 Tesco stores does not need an excessive number of film graduates.

 

Anyway, fortunately many of Tesco's stores are overseas and they are heavily investing in China. At the end of the day, they are a good retailer and they are exporting their 'offering' overseas, which is good for UK PC

 

As to what bearing this has on undergraduate courses, it's (of course) much more nuanced than you, especially, could ever imagine - not least because, like English, Economics, Engineering, Chemistry, etc, etc, etc, we do not produce graduates to fit precisely into fixed positions but to add to the intellectual gene pool of the country. Some of the brightest minds in the City have science degrees, not business or finance degrees, for example. Politicians, loathe them or love them, have acquired Humanities and Arts degrees. As have copywriters in another industry at which the UK excels - advertising. Sometimes, of course, it works out as you would presumably want 100% of the time; the young AP photographer who took the infamous picture of Camilla being goosed in the royal caboose has a degree in documentary photography.

 

I have no problem with people looking to further their education. However, I do have a problem with subsidising unnecessary courses, in the context of what they add to UK PLC, as it is UK PC that ultimately pays for it (unless of course, the student pays and then it is not my problem). Therefore, in principal, tuition fees sorts out the wheat from the chaff (in terms of usefulness and the attitiude in terms of how serious the student is).

 

I personally woud like to see a two tier fee system (not based on class or ability to pay, but usefulness) as follows:

1. Lower fees on courses that enable the student to add value to UK PLC

2. Higher fees for those that are (in my opinion) a complete waste of time (e.g. Sports Science, music, media studies)

 

I have mentioned the silicon valley model before, where the university was the kingpin in attracting the technology companies and those that spawned them. Microsoft, Oracle, Sun Microsystems, Cisco etc etc all came out of Siicon Valley at a similar time. They virtually created the world's IT industry worth trillions and trillions of pounds. Look at the world's richest people from Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Larry Elison etc etc. Would you seriously suggest that this massive success story would have become a reality if the university ony offered sports science degrees?

 

No, of course not.

 

Therefore, there are courses that add more value than others and these should be identified (I am not necessarily the best position to make that call) and made more readily available as it will benefit us all. This can be paid for by those that choose to expand their mind, but will never repay the cost of this.

 

Let's take two massive growth areas in the coming decades..... renewable energy and food production. These are two areas that could yield massive dividends if we became the silicon valley equivalent in these fields. I would be more than happy to see people working in these sectors to have their fees wiped out alltogether. **** loads of media studies graduates is not going to help....great for the student, but not for the tax payer.

 

Simple really.

[Gingeletiss]

May has ruled out using water cannons...that has to smart a bit dune?

 

You heard a different report on her commons speach, to the one I heard. My understanding is that she hasn't ruled it out!!

[Verbal]

You posted an article to big up the film industry. I merely put the industry into perspective. Sorry if that has touched a nerve, but an industry that is the equivalent to 50 Tesco stores does not need an excessive number of film graduates.

 

Anyway, fortunately many of Tesco's stores are overseas and they are heavily investing in China. At the end of the day, they are a good retailer and they are exporting their 'offering' overseas, which is good for UK PC

 

 

 

I have no problem with people looking to further their education. However, I do have a problem with subsidising unnecessary courses, in the context of what they add to UK PLC, as it is UK PC that ultimately pays for it (unless of course, the student pays and then it is not my problem). Therefore, in principal, tuition fees sorts out the wheat from the chaff (in terms of usefulness and the attitiude in terms of how serious the student is).

 

I personally woud like to see a two tier fee system (not based on class or ability to pay, but usefulness) as follows:

1. Lower fees on courses that enable the student to add value to UK PLC

2. Higher fees for those that are (in my opinion) a complete waste of time (e.g. Sports Science, music, media studies)

 

I have mentioned the silicon valley model before, where the university was the kingpin in attracting the technology companies and those that spawned them. Microsoft, Oracle, Sun Microsystems, Cisco etc etc all came out of Siicon Valley at a similar time. They virtually created the world's IT industry worth trillions and trillions of pounds. Look at the world's richest people from Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Larry Elison etc etc. Would you seriously suggest that this massive success story would have become a reality if the university ony offered sports science degrees?

 

No, of course not.

 

Therefore, there are courses that add more value than others and these should be identified (I am not necessarily the best position to make that call) and made more readily available as it will benefit us all. This can be paid for by those that choose to expand their mind, but will never repay the cost of this.

 

Let's take two massive growth areas in the coming decades..... renewable energy and food production. These are two areas that could yield massive dividends if we became the silicon valley equivalent in these fields. I would be more than happy to see people working in these sectors to have their fees wiped out alltogether. **** loads of media studies graduates is not going to help....great for the student, but not for the tax payer.

 

Simple really.

 

I don't have the will to live through a detailed response to such contradictory nonsense. Discounting for value-added degrees - however the hell that is done - will in all likelihood result in reductions for the very courses you loathe. The abject neo-liberal philistinism of doing 'what's good for UK PLC' will have all the wondrously unintended consequences you'd expect in your worst nightmares if politicos started making such diktats. In any case, some people value higher education as a thing in itself. If you DON'T make impossible measurements about value to UK PLC, you're likely to do as the Americans, for example, do - and reap the broader benefits of a college-educated workforce, whatever disciplines they follow. Or tiger economies like South Korea, where 80% of the 21 year olds hold university degrees.

 

Any idea that you can simply set up degrees to encourage certain economic outcomes is absurd and doomed to fail. Gates and Jobs didn't do degrees in 'Microsoft Studies' or 'Apple Studies'. The most exciting thing about the next big thing is that nobody can know what it is. Except you, evidently.

[hamster]

My mate from Uni did film studies and we all took the ****, now he's earning **** loads making TV programmes. Not really an interesting fact but shows how not all film graduates work in the film industry.

 

I wonder how big the UK philosophy industry is, maybe we should scrap all those courses?

 

Universities are about furthering knowledge, they are not job training schemes. I think the less educated on here fail to understand that concept.

it's a pretty big popular on here is philosophy, a profound thought on the day that the bbc have an item about freud later today. a very interesting man freud, people dismiss him because he is right about stuff, and you don't need a degree to know that.

 

hamster, ocd

[hamster]

You heard a different report on her commons speach, to the one I heard. My understanding is that she hasn't ruled it out!!

that's i heard it too ginge. nice eh. and ironicallt it is the police and fire service that are facing some of the toughest cuts. bloody hell, this is mental.

[Johnny Bognor]

I don't have the will to live through a detailed response to such contradictory nonsense. Discounting for value-added degrees - however the hell that is done - will in all likelihood result in reductions for the very courses you loathe. The abject neo-liberal philistinism of doing 'what's good for UK PLC' will have all the wondrously unintended consequences you'd expect in your worst nightmares if politicos started making such diktats. In any case, some people value higher education as a thing in itself. If you DON'T make impossible measurements about value to UK PLC, you're likely to do as the Americans, for example, do - and reap the broader benefits of a college-educated workforce, whatever disciplines they follow. Or tiger economies like South Korea, where 80% of the 21 year olds hold university degrees.

 

Any idea that you can simply set up degrees to encourage certain economic outcomes is absurd and doomed to fail. Gates and Jobs didn't do degrees in 'Microsoft Studies' or 'Apple Studies'. The most exciting thing about the next big thing is that nobody can know what it is. Except you, evidently.

 

We are where we are, public finances in a mess.

 

Tuition fess are going up. The other side of the argument, "free education for all" is very noble, but there is not much money in the pot. What I have propsed is a third way where some courses could be made more affordable if there was a cast iron economic benefit. Not ideal, but surely better than all fees going up?

 

Anyway, I am off to the dentist in a minute for a tooth extraction. I seriously hope and pray that he is someone who is following his life long ambition to be a dentist (having done dentistry at uni) and not someone who majored in equine studies, found they coudn't get a job, then had to re-qualify as a dentist in order to make a living.

Edited 14 December, 2010 by Johnny Bognor

[CB Saint]

I am off to the dentist in a minute for a tooth extraction. I seriously hope and pray that he is someone who is following his life long ambition to be a dentist (having done dentistry at uni) and not someone who majored in equine studies, found they coudn't get a job, then had to re-qualify as a dentist in order to make a living.

 

Take firm grip of tooth with pliers. Push in hard, Twist, Pull. Simples.

 

You don't need to go to uni to do that.

 

Have a nice day!!!

[Johnny Bognor]

Take firm grip of tooth with pliers. Push in hard, Twist, Pull. Simples.

 

You don't need to go to uni to do that.

 

Have a nice day!!!

 

**** me, I am glad you're not doing it, what about anaesthetic?

[dune]

I am off to the dentist in a minute for a tooth extraction.

 

I had one pulled by a big black man. He was good.

[Special K]

Well I know this business pretty well. The point is, it's a talent-led industry. If we took the decision only to train exactly the number of people to graduate level we needed the whole thing would go into serious decline. You have no idea what people 'dream' when they go to university - that's just a little fantasy in your peevish little post, that you have some brilliant, omnipotent insight into people's ambitions. You don't. By what measure are there 'not many jobs in postproduction'. At the moment, the talent shortage is bad enough that many post people are imported from abroad in Soho. And what, exactly, is a closed shop? where does 95% come from - give me a source for that little dreamed-up figure.

 

As I say, we're just talking about film here, not the much bigger TV and games industries. And the larger point is that the extremely tedious cliche about people studying 'useless' film and TV is not only stupid; it's potentially damaging to one of this country's great success stories in the creative industries.

 

It's a shame you can't respond without being condescending, but i suppose that's the way you are wired.

 

Granted, i take my information second hand; i know a producer that works for Tiger Aspect and someone who works at Working Title (name dropping i know, ahem!). They say that the good graduates will always get work and generally do very well, but there are an increasing number who fail to even get in the door. I don't think it's very fair that their are too many places on courses for jobs when we end up importing doctors for our hospitals and (despite the recession) there is a shortgae of tradesmen and professionals in the industry i know very well; construction.

 

I was fortunate enough to be on a TV set and the vast majority of people are the support crew performing the background tasks to make it all happen. The only real exception to this is in animation. And i never said it was useless Verbal, you are firing from the hip again.

[wheels]

Presumably you will happily volunteer to pay back for the full cost of the univeristy education that you received - after all why should we pay for you to advance yourself?

 

The solution is simple. Increase top rate taxation by a couple of percentage points so that anyone who does benefit financially from unversity does pay extra. At the same time reduce the numbers of unversity places for Arts degrees, give financial incentives to universities to enrol disadvantaged youngsters and make vocational training more attractive,

 

Whilst shafting those who do well without going to university

[trousers]

My mate from Uni did film studies and we all took the ****, now he's earning **** loads making TV programmes. Not really an interesting fact but shows how not all film graduates work in the film industry.

 

I wonder how big the UK philosophy industry is, maybe we should scrap all those courses?

 

Universities are about furthering knowledge, they are not job training schemes. I think the less educated on here fail to understand that concept.

 

The "furthering of knowledge" isn't a domain that is exclusive to universities.

 

I didn't go to university and look how clever I turned out... ;-)

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

The "furthering of knowledge" isn't a domain that is exclusive to universities.

 

I didn't go to university and look how clever I turned out... ;-)

 

What an advert for further education, hehe...

[Saintandy666]

This Jody McIntyre stuff is NOT looking good at all.

[Thedelldays]

This Jody McIntyre stuff is NOT looking good at all.

 

you what..?