Liquidshokk Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 Sorry to interrupt all the 'funny' red herrings, but has anyone got a clear family tree for Markus's branch of the family? Is Katharina his only child, or is there also a son as I read somewhere once? Are we owned by any particular individual member of the family, or by the Mali group? Is the show-jumper Christina (?) related? Are any Leibherrs actually definitely attending games regularly? If so, who? Trying to get a clear picture in my mind of who in the family matters, and who in the family cares about Saints. According to the company info on the OS we are owned by "The estate of Markus Liebherr" http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/page/companydetails Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saints foreva Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 If this isn't true than I would have expected the club to have released a statement saying so by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dronskisaint Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 If this isn't true than I would have expected the club to have released a statement saying so by now. What...& dignify that sh*t rag with a reply - I think not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 of course..ticket taxes and car parking charges would be the start of it all...just to service the debt and the earnings of the owners (saying owners as it would be a consortium) Tell us more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saints foreva Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 What...& dignify that sh*t rag with a reply - I think not! They replied to the Bournemouth rag when they claimed Eddie Howe had been offered the job so why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 I'll be interested to hear Jackanorys take on the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 According to the company info on the OS we are owned by "The estate of Markus Liebherr" http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/page/companydetails If it is "the estate of Markus Liebherr", then do his family actually have any say? It may just follow his wishes and they may not have the power of veto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 If it is "the estate of Markus Liebherr", then do his family actually have any say? It may just follow his wishes and they may not have the power of veto. I once read about an hieress, I think her father made his fortune from Cornish tin, and she left all her money to a cat. Needless to say her family were not very happy about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint J 77 Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 Whatever happens Markus Liebherr has put us on a sound footing. TRUE, but it only takes one fake shiek to throw that all out the window. I have been worried the family wouldn't be inerested in carrying on Marcus's dream. It is worrying but until we here anything offical its all just a waste of energy worrying about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 TRUE, but it only takes one fake shiek to throw that all out the window. I have been worried the family wouldn't be inerested in carrying on Marcus's dream. It is worrying but until we here anything offical its all just a waste of energy worrying about it. Sound footing maybe, but I'd wager it now costs far more to watch us in League 1 than it did in the first years in the Championship, when you take in all the add-ons that didn't exist then.Not going to get too many walk-ups at £27 for a game like Brentford are we. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMikey Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 Is Tony Lynam still a member on the site? He would probably have been notified if the club had been put up for sale, seeing as he was so instrumental in the Pinnacle bid.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 Is Tony Lynam still a member on the site? He would probably have been notified if the club had been put up for sale, seeing as he was so instrumental in the Pinnacle bid.. he is indeed, looked in last Monday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 Is Tony Lynam still a member on the site? He would probably have been notified if the club had been put up for sale, seeing as he was so instrumental in the Pinnacle bid.. I get the impression Cortese wouldn't be on speaking terms with anyone from the failed Pinnacle bid as it delayed Liebherr's takeover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 he is indeed, looked in last Monday. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Wayman Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 Well, I did warn you months ago that all the signs were there for a fire sale in the spring and those warnig signs were lised. Maybe this old lad is not so paranoid after all? Forget those dreams my friends we are down in this sh*t*hole for ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 Well, I did warn you months ago that all the signs were there for a fire sale in the spring and those warnig signs were lised. Maybe this old lad is not so paranoid after all? Forget those dreams my friends we are down in this sh*t*hole for ever I'm gonna read the Daily mail to cheer myself up. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1335854/Sharm-el-Sheikh-shark-attack-German-tourist-70-killed-arm-ripped-off.html That's better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 According to the company info on the OS we are owned by "The estate of Markus Liebherr" http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/page/companydetails "The estate of Markus Liebherr"....at which point does someone's "estate" not exist anymore after one's death? Surely, the minute someone else is bequeathed "the estate" it is no longer exists as an estate per se but now belongs to whoever inherited it? Unless of course ML's entire estate was preserved 'in trust' (i.e. as a separate stand alone entity) and as such hasn't actually passed onto anyone? Or it could just mean that the 'company details' section of the website is out of date.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 There is a scenario no-one has mentioned. Let us assume that The Sun story is fiction. If this is the case I think it's reasonable to come to the conclusion that Nicola has done something to annoy them. I think the clue is in the article with the spelling of Nicolas name. The more I think bout it the more I think this story is retaliation and Nicola has put his foot in it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 My house is not currently on the market but if someone came in and offered me 10% more than I thought it worth I would sell it. My take from talking to people closer to the club than I that this is the case now and has been since September. Certainly influential people in the City have been made aware of it. Word has been put around that the Liebherr's would be prepared to sell if the money was right. What frightens me is this is a green light for all the idiot tyre kickers (Fulthorpe, Pinnacle, Help Me Rhonda etc) to come out of the woodwork - after all with no debt we are a good buy. At least we can have confidence in NC quickly sorting out the genuine buyers if indeed any exist. Marcus's premature and sad death was probably the biggest blow this club has suffered to its well being since relegation from the Prem. I still maintain all along we should have been prepared for this and started some sort of partial ownership initiative if only to stop the club falling into the wrong hands. I am sure the Liebherr family would have looked kindly on some sort of fan buy out. Not saying it works or is ideal but I would rather have the club part owned by the fans than by the likes of people like Risdale or mandaric. Your dates are out FF (IMHO of course). Why is this coming out now? First - it is and always has been obvious that NC was on a deal or bonus or otherwise to get us back to the PL (he sold that dream to Markus). The reason will be that he would be due a substantial bonus. He did not exit the world of Bankers and big bonuses just for fun and frinedship, there will have been further motivation. So, SFC have been up for sale from the day they both arrived at the club. The issue was simply as FF so eloquently says - The Price Speculation as to why this is now "leaked" when it has been (thanks to the basic principles of Capitalism) fairly clear from word go AND other TSF posters HAVE commented... Disgruntled Ex Employees. Leftback talks of Training Ground ex employees. But there have been others - Whatever happened to Mr Oldknow for example, or the back office ticket office or finance staff. Someone is doing this and most likely to hurt someone IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithd Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 I once read about an hieress, I think her father made his fortune from Cornish tin, and she left all her money to a cat. Needless to say her family were not very happy about it. are you saying Garfield is soon to be the owner of Southampton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dronskisaint Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 (edited) That was a response to a direct statement from the Bournemouth chairman that was untrue & needed correcting...this is just some speculative rumour mongering without any tangible foundation...that would be the difference. Reply to Saintsforeva...I forgot to link Edited 6 December, 2010 by dronskisaint Forgot to link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 Your dates are out FF (IMHO of course). Why is this coming out now? First - it is and always has been obvious that NC was on a deal or bonus or otherwise to get us back to the PL (he sold that dream to Markus). The reason will be that he would be due a substantial bonus. He did not exit the world of Bankers and big bonuses just for fun and frinedship, there will have been further motivation. So, SFC have been up for sale from the day they both arrived at the club. The issue was simply as FF so eloquently says - The Price Speculation as to why this is now "leaked" when it has been (thanks to the basic principles of Capitalism) fairly clear from word go AND other TSF posters HAVE commented... Disgruntled Ex Employees. Leftback talks of Training Ground ex employees. But there have been others - Whatever happened to Mr Oldknow for example, or the back office ticket office or finance staff. Someone is doing this and most likely to hurt someone IMHO Too many bullfrogs - He said from September. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tone Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 "The estate of Markus Liebherr"....at which point does someone's "estate" not exist anymore after one's death? Surely, the minute someone else is bequeathed "the estate" it is no longer exists as an estate per se but now belongs to whoever inherited it? Unless of course ML's entire estate was preserved 'in trust' (i.e. as a separate stand alone entity) and as such hasn't actually passed onto anyone? Or it could just mean that the 'company details' section of the website is out of date.... I'd expect the phrase 'estate of...' to be used until probate was sorted out. As I posted once before I have no idea about Swiss law, but if this was in the UK it could easily take a year to sort probate on such a complicated and large estate. So I suppose, to answer my own question, it may be that no one quite owns us yet. We could still be in limbo waiting for probate to pass legal ownership to ... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 I'd expect the phrase 'estate of...' to be used until probate was sorted out. As I posted once before I have no idea about Swiss law, but if this was in the UK it could easily take a year to sort probate on such a complicated and large estate. So I suppose, to answer my own question, it may be that no one quite owns us yet. We could still be in limbo waiting for probate to pass legal ownership to ... ? I think that is pretty much spot on. There were some posts on here that Swiss law passed everything on straight away, but the estate of a billionaire could well take up to a year, if not longer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Porter Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 just imagine that someone bought debt free saints and mortgaged the club to the eye balls in getting us.. meaning no more lambert type of signings and lallanas would need to be sold.. a mini man u if you like That would be fairly **** and in all honesty would probably be the route we'd end up going down. Would end up in exactly the same position as we where pre-admin just in a lower league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tone Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 I think that is pretty much spot on. There were some posts on here that Swiss law passed everything on straight away, but the estate of a billionaire could well take up to a year, if not longer Found this link if anyone has the stamina to read it. http://www.internationallawoffice.com/newsletters/detail.aspx?g=fc2b3865-e7f2-461d-9963-d54d10f0fb5c Looks like Swiss law does pass assets on immediately BUT it all gets complicated when international assets are involved. Might Markus even still count as German rather than Swiss in relation to this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lets B Avenue Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 My house is not currently on the market but if someone came in and offered me 10% more than I thought it worth I would sell it. What?? 10% on top of the price of one of the most desireable mansion houses set deep in the Hampshire countryside? Not even the Leibherr's could afford that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trumush Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 He wont even get the market value when the prospective purchaser see's all those Daily Mail hack's hiding in the bushes !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 Too many bullfrogs - He said from September. OK which bit? The date bit? I think they were looking earlier than that, that was the point I was making. Apologies for not being clear, yes it was a heavy weekend and a 5am start today to catch up work. Logic dictates that NC could not have "held a close relationship with ML" (according to Leftback's posts) if he was a totally useless Investment Banker who didn't deliver. So it makes sense he had a deal with Markus. Reaching the PL would potentially value a debt free SFC at around 150mil against a buy price of around 15mil. NC was on a DEAL to make a profit. IMHO I firmly believe that in the early days when they saved the club, they would have looked to turn a fast profit IF it had been possible. I would guess that around May of 2009 such rumours could have been doing the rounds. The FACT that they did not sell is (IMHO) down to the fact that ML started to enjoy his investment more than someone not paying top price for FF's Mansions. The "Someobody with a grudge" leaked it to cause damage bit? I've maintained for some time that "Dark Forces" exist who still seek personal gain from getting into the club (NO, not LM MLT, others from our non Rupert past). I did LB a disservice by accusing him of being a part of that, but I was wrong he was much closer to the club and IMHO had our interests at heart. The Sun got hold of a rumour. SO that means it was NC or the Liebherr family, a "Source close to the club" such as someone with standing or a past relationship with the club OR an (ex) employee who The Sun would give credibility to. NC has dropped two senior members of his team that came in with him and a bunch of AP staff, makes more sense it was one of them rather than D_P's conspiracy theory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docker-p Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 I don't see why anyone would be surprised by this. I expect all ML various business interests are being reviewed by those he left them to, and if its good business to sell, I expect they will sell. On the positive side we get rid of that numbnut Cortesse, on the negative side any purchaser may use debt to fund the purchase, and if that is mismanaged we're back where Lowe left off !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
up and away Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 Whatever happens Markus Liebherr has put us on a sound footing. Just imagine Micky Falka sells his stamp collection, goes down the back of the couch and manages to convince others he is the man. All of a sudden you are in that well known stretch of water, though I don't believe the Liebherrs would do that. What I find intriguing, is that Cortese approaches a local business man, instead of going where actual money resides. These local businessmen who never had the contents to come in before Liebherr, but have suddenly found the capital to trump all of that. I don't know where this latest rumour has come from but am pretty sure about leftbacks previous source regarding Cortese taking the family to court, speculation at it's best. I agree to a certain extent that there is no smoke without fire, but I get the feeling the smoke and the fire are in two different locations here. I think the family are looking to scale back the amounts Markus was prepared to spend on the club and Cortese is looking at outside help / sponsorship to help out. What the position will be of the family if we can't make up that shortfall I do not know. I am pretty sure Saints are well provided for by Markus, but I cannot see that as near the figure I might have expected him to spend off his own back. If you have recipients of Markus's will not bothering to watch the Saints, it's only logical they would not overly supportive from their own pocket. It would not surprise me if Cortese has a significant although not biggest share of the Liebherr estate, because he certainly seems to be acting in unison with the other family members over Mali. I still do not believe anyone has the confidence of Cortese. They may be able to tell where he has been, who he has talked, but are just filling in the blanks and coming out with their own interpretation. My own feeling would be if there cannot be agreement from the family of finance to advance the club, you would see a scenario as with Jack Walker and Wolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 I'm just relieved that mandaric has already filled his boots in sheffield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 As it's only a line in the gossip column it could just be bull****, but I wouldn't be surprised if they try to offload he club if we don't get promotion. Fact is no one on here had a scooby that they were trying to buy the club so it will be the same if they are selling. If it happens I expect the first we will hear about it is when it is done and dusted. I think it's naive to think the situation wouldn't change after Markus died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deppo Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 Rule 1. Good to hear though, hopefully they will be catching the supporting bug. Picture? Show some respect. This is the daughter of Markus we are talking about. The man didn't invest his money in this club to have the likes of you making lewd comments about his offspring. Well, I did warn you months ago that all the signs were there for a fire sale in the spring and those warnig signs were lised. Maybe this old lad is not so paranoid after all? Forget those dreams my friends we are down in this sh*t*hole for ever Yep. I said this about 4 or 5 months ago. It's all very obvious to anyone who cares to look closely enough. Can you remember when exactly you said it, just to see who said it first - me or you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 I think it's naive to think the situation wouldn't change after Markus died. Not even when the club released a statement soon after his passing, saying the family remains onside and the plans remain unchanged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 Not even when the club released a statement soon after his passing, saying the family remains onside and the plans remain unchanged? that is like a big winner in the lottery saying it wont change them...of course things were going to change...just depends whether we notice it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Porter Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 I'm sure the club would never lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 (edited) Not even the club releasing plans for a multi million training ground development 4 days ago? The same architect firm did Stoke City's training ground in the last 12 months, which is smaller than Saints' planned development in floor plan and it cost Stoke £5m. Edited 6 December, 2010 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcjwills Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 Why would we get a buyer, when there is an excellently run club just down the road that would be a bargain for any multi zillionaire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 Not even the club releasing plans for a multi million training ground development 4 days ago? The same architect firm did Stoke City's training ground in the last 12 months, which is smaller than Saints' and it cost Stoke £5m. still might mean they want to sell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 Not even when the club released a statement soon after his passing, saying the family remains onside and the plans remain unchanged? The Club's spokesman was just saying what he had to say, it was in no one's interest to say anything else. The only important thing is what the Leibherrs say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Porter Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 Not even the club releasing plans for a multi million training ground development 4 days ago? The same architect firm did Stoke City's training ground in the last 12 months, which is smaller than Saints' planned development in floor plan and it cost Stoke £5m. Doesn't mean much really. I'm just not at all suprised by this rumour (of course it could be rubbish and probably is) it seems to me that there has been something not quite right at the club for a while. All started when the promises made in the supporters charter where broken, then there was the sacking of Pardew again wasn't at all suprised and plenty of other things that have happened as well. I just think there is something wrong somewhere. I'm not ITK or anything that's just my general feel on things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 The Club's spokesman was just saying what he had to say, it was in no one's interest to say anything else. The only important thing is what the Leibherrs say. It wasn't just a spokesman, it was Nicola Cortese himself after talking to the family... I have spoken at length with Markus' family and they are fully supportive of Saints and in fulfilling Markus' legacy. http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10280~2128238,00.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 It wasn't just a spokesman, it was Nicola Cortese himself in an OS article... http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10280~2128238,00.html things do change in life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 things do change in life Well I trust that article and Cortese more than a three line unsubstantiated rumour in The Sun. The same paper contains a story today that the Glazers are giving Fergie £100m to spend. Reliable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 It wasn't just a spokesman, it was Nicola Cortese himself after talking to the family... http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10280~2128238,00.html Like I said, the only important thing is what the Leibherrs say. Cortese is an employee of the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deppo Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 things do change in life When I was younger my favourite flavour crisps were Cheese and Onion. Nowadays I hate Cheese and Onion but love Ready Salted and Smokey Bacon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 Well I trust that article and Cortese more than a three line unsubstantiated rumour in The Sun. The same paper contains a story today that the Glazers are giving Fergie £100m to spend. Reliable? of course not..and most have stated that it is probably shyt (which I agree)...but there is a tiny possibility, now that markus gone that the "family" simply do not have the zest for the club that the old man did.....which, is fair enough and we are their "ball" now..why on earth, no matter what someone says would they want to keep us when they could have £££££ heading their way.....please dont retort to that as I am throwing one out there... I am sure that it is bullsheet and will come to nothing..but just speculating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Wayman Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 That would be fairly **** and in all honesty would probably be the route we'd end up going down. Would end up in exactly the same position as we where pre-admin just in a lower league. I have a feeling that the "fit and proper person test" will be far more rigorously applied post the FIFA 2018 voting debacle. The FA and the FL will no doubt be feeling far more independent from now on to do things their way. Today's talk of Harry Redknapp taking over England seems to me to be a coded message saying foreigners may as well b*gger off, there are even rumours of Abromovich selling Chelsea as Russia summons home its entrepreneurs to deliver 2018. Of course, there might also be a mood abroad that the party in England is effectively over in which case many foreign owners might take flight at the first whiff of gunshot. Don't forget FIFA is a Swiss organisation and who is running Saints? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMidfieldGeneral Posted 6 December, 2010 Share Posted 6 December, 2010 There is no smoke without fire. Dry Ice!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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