Schneiderlin

[Chez]

I agree he has the qualities to be a top player great touch and control he & Lallana are technically our best players he is still learning & will have been brought up playing a slower game in France.

 

At the moment his positional sense isnt good enough he can go missing and be caught out of position he also neede shaking up he was to sure of his place Chaplow makes him look a better player and he can learn a lot from him.

 

There is no doubt he is a proper player and we will do well to hang on to him he has time on his side and could go on to be a very important player for us.

 

I was starting to think we went to see two dfferent teams on a Saturday, but I could not agree with you more on this.

[rolosfc]

I like him, technically good, well he is French!!! Not sure he knows whether he should be the holding midfielder or the attacking midfielder! Not sure he's a good enough/string enough tackler to be the former and definitely doesn't create or score enough to be the latter!!

 

Hopefully Adkins has decided he's the holding type and will help him in that!

 

Certainly don't want to lose him!

 

I agree with this. I almost think he is too much of a luxury in this league, as you need one midfielder to win the tackles and headers (Hammond) and one who will burst forward and get the odd goal (Chaplow). Although technically Morgan is better than both of these players on the whole, he is better than neither at the above mentioned aspects of his game. Therefore it makes it very difficult to fit him in, unless we play 3 centre mids.

[eelpie]

Schneiderlin's talent (discussed at length) deserves at least Championship level. This is more of a rough and tumble league and suits Chaplow's aggression in the centre. Morgan gives us alternatives depending on the opposition. I hope we retain Morgan at least till next season when we should be in the CCC and have a few more players alongside him to suit his style. It would be folly to lose him. Our priority this season (if we continue to lack two in-form strikers) is to bulldoze our way to promotion by not conceding or losing too many games.. Millwall did it, so should we. Even with our present complement of players.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

I was starting to think we went to see two dfferent teams on a Saturday, but I could not agree with you more on this.

 

Is it this bit you couldn't agree more with?

 

.........he has time on his side and could go on to be a very important player for us.........

 

Should we play him because he could go on to be an important player? Or does it mean we should keep him and maybe not play him much? If the latter I think it's clear he doesn't want that. Which means that you'd play him in a league to which he isn't suited and take the increased risk of another missed promotion?

[hughieslastminutegoal]

He is young technically excellent and learning his trade! We need him!

 

We NEED a player who is learning his trade? You might want to keep him, but need is a different matter.

[Window Cleaner]

Is it this bit you couldn't agree more with?

 

.........he has time on his side and could go on to be a very important player for us.........

 

Should we play him because he could go on to be an important player? Or does it mean we should keep him and maybe not play him much? If the latter I think it's clear he doesn't want that. Which means that you'd play him in a league to which he isn't suited and take the increased risk of another missed promotion?

 

Morgan was most definite in an interview he gave on the FFF site a while back. He's here to play,it's why he's here, he believes we will go on to higher things, he just wants to play.I know the FFF weren't particularly happy with the arrangement but they seemed to have gotten over it.As I've said before being dropped when he came back from the last 2 match trip with the bleuets has seemingly been a real downer for him, maybe he's just ****ged out because he's played too much football for a player of his age,especially in the permanently hostile environment of CM in League1.Something has triggered a change in attitude with him but who knows what exactly that is.

[saintant]

Too good for this team. Would look superb in a pass and move side like Arsenal. Must be frustrating for him.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

Morgan was most definite in an interview he gave on the FFF site a while back. He's here to play,it's why he's here, he believes we will go on to higher things, he just wants to play.I know the FFF weren't particularly happy with the arrangement but they seemed to have gotten over it.As I've said before being dropped when he came back from the last 2 match trip with the bleuets has seemingly been a real downer for him, maybe he's just ****ged out because he's played too much football for a player of his age,especially in the permanently hostile environment of CM in League1.Something has triggered a change in attitude with him but who knows what exactly that is.

 

Who knows whether what a player says in an interview is what he really thinks? How many times have fans across the nation heard "I want to do it for the fans, I want to play for the shirt, I want to help get us up to the next level..blah blah" and then a week later the transfer request comes in and the manager says " We couldn't stand in his way..." I'm not saying what he said definitely isn't true but I just have serious doubts.

 

The fact is we can speculate all day about how good he might become. Adkins has to decide whether he contributes enough now.

Edited 30 November, 2010 by hughieslastminutegoal

[Window Cleaner]

Who knows whether what a player says in an interview is what he really thinks? How many times have fans across the nation heard "I want to do it for the fans, I want to play for the shirt, I want to help get us up to the next level..blah blah" and then a week later the transfer request comes in and the manager says " We couldn't stand in his way..." I'm not saying what he said definitely isn't true but I just have serious doubts.

 

Although he didn't say it for us or our fans, he said it to justify what the French see as an atypical pathway.They cannot understand what a player of his calibre is doing in the 3rd division, to them it's "National" standard,that's barely professional status.

[derry]

Well they would know about that with the massive crowds they get at all their top division games and most of their best players abroad.

[Window Cleaner]

Well they would know about that with the massive crowds they get at all their top division games and most of their best players abroad.

 

exactly, they know nothing about English football outside of the liberal doses of EPL which they get every Saturday,Sunday and Monday (if your well off enough to pay for Canal+),doesn't stop them making a mathematical comparison though. However Marseille get a regular 50K,PSG and Lyon around 40K and some of the others 27/28K. It's not all that sinister plus it's cheapish.

[Chez]

We NEED a player who is learning his trade? You might want to keep him, but need is a different matter.

 

We might as well get rid of the youth set we have then if thats your attitude. Personally speaking I'd sacrifice a little quality if it meant we were developing young players that might, and I say might, stay with us as we hopefully progress through the league.

 

The lad is absolute quality on the ball. He has an unbelievable first touch, and ability to keep the ball despitereal pressure. That is a rare talent at this level and if you or anyone else can't see that ability then I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to say that you don't know the game. The rest of the game, positioning etc. will come in time. I know he may leave, if the rumours are true sooner rather than later, but I hope not as he makes the game look easy and we will struggle to find that kind of player with the potential he has.

 

Remember, the Chaplow signing is not done. As much as I like Gobern, is he going to get us promoted?

[saintedwill]

I wonder if pardew would have played morgan as much last season IF we had chaplow then..?

 

probably - seeing that Chaplow has made an impact at almost every club he's been at and then bombed out after a season.

 

I hope Chaplow does well for us and I like him, but I do wonder where he goes wrong.

[Dark Munster]

1 goal in 72? We wouldn't miss him if he went.

 

3 assists in 72 is even more damning.

[St_Tel49]

Schneiderlin= A very good defensive midfeilder, but can't tackle.

Chaplow= A good defensive midfielder that CAN tackle.

Schneiderlin= A very good attacking midfieldier, but can't "get forward" enough.

Chaplow= A good attacking midfielder that CAN "get forward".

 

It's hard to explain, but like people have said, he doesn't really fit into any system whereas Chaplow can cover both. Considering we are in league 1, I'd rather be playing Chaplow despite the fact Morgan is more gifted.

You are simply convincing me that it is time that Spiderman was playing in a league where the other players are on his wavelength. I am of the opinion that anyone who thinks that Chaplow is a better player than Schneiderlin probably thought that all those ex-Saints players that are still playing in the premiership were crap (and for any one of them - plenty did think that they were crap)!

[Cabrone]

3 assists in 72 is even more damning.

 

Indeed, requiring 24 games to make one assist does not make my pulse race.

 

Square passes into safe areas is the easy bit, picking out goal scoring opportunities is much harder.

 

Does anyone have Chaplow's and Hammond's stats as a comparison?

[redkeith]

Does anyone have some stats for Claude Makalale's goals and assists ?

 

Or Alan Ball, Jim Magilton or Matt Oakley for that matter ?

 

It is a team game, and is not just about individual stats. Stats won't show how many wingers have been set into spaceby a square pass to set up a goal, and thus get the magical assist statistic.

 

In my younger days, I used to moan about Bally and his constant short square passes. calling it negative. Boy was I wrong. We have never played football that good since he hung his boots up.

 

All those people wanting rid of Morgan, be careful what you wish for. And don't be suprised if lots of threads appear in the future saying that we should have never got rid of maorgan, much as they do now with Matt Oakley.

[Window Cleaner]

Does anyone have some stats for Claude Makalale's goals and assists ?

 

Or Alan Ball, Jim Magilton or Matt Oakley for that matter ?

 

It is a team game, and is not just about individual stats. Stats won't show how many wingers have been set into spaceby a square pass to set up a goal, and thus get the magical assist statistic.

 

In my younger days, I used to moan about Bally and his constant short square passes. calling it negative. Boy was I wrong. We have never played football that good since he hung his boots up.

 

All those people wanting rid of Morgan, be careful what you wish for. And don't be suprised if lots of threads appear in the future saying that we should have never got rid of maorgan, much as they do now with Matt Oakley.

 

I hear that St E are looking for a midfielder again this next window and that they probably have the necessary money this time round.

[Village Saint]

Whats everyones thoughts on him ?? I know some rate him highly and some do not.

 

The way i see it, is that Schneiderlin is one of the most technically gifted members of the squad, his passing and subtle touches are streets ahead than 95% of the rest of league one and IMO he is also up there with the better players in the championship.

 

But you have to watch him, and understand his subtleties, if i was lucky enough to grace a pitch with him in attacking positions i would be living a dream. His vision is outstanding and far exceeds pretty much every saints player i have seen easily within the last 3-4 years so far. If anyone he reminds me of Anders. Some may laugh at that, my some may see my point as in my mind Anders was another player, who was better than what we had but woefully played out of position.

 

The boy has something, his passing, even watching the highlights of midweek is second to none, his movement into space, his ghosting into space, making space, finding passes. He is better than the team we have now, the problem comes into fitting him in. It is clear to me now, especially under Adkins that he does not fit the system. 4-5-1 suited him as it allowed a player in front of him, a player helping him shield and allowed him to pick the passes out and set the tempo. In 4-4-2 he cannot orchestrate as well as he is able as his other midfielder bombs on leaving him to try to defend as well as dictate play.

 

Which leaves a bit of a dilemma, do we find space for him ?? Do we change the favoured (and probably working) formation ? Do we sell ??

 

I don't know, personally i don't want to lose a player of his quality, and i honestly think he will be a top level player in some league in the near(ish) future. But looking at the way we are playing i don't think he suits the squad. Is he a bad player ? No far from it, but he doesn't fit for me any more, and there is a difference there.

 

I just wondered really what other peoples views on the whole situation are.

 

Morgan is already one of our best players and at his age is simply going to get better. We have more than enough midfield players who hustle and bustle but who don't contribute enough quality. Morgan seems able to rise above that. As well as his role as a ball winner and passer, he performs a role that every good side needs that of the recycler - he picks up broken ball and ensures it stays with us as useable ball. We simply always play better with him in the side and that is a key reason. It is sad that some people almost seem to prefer Chaplow - that actually shouldn't be the choice - which is odd. Chaplow seems enthusiatic enough, as he is when he first joins any club, and some people seem to simply like players who run about but having two enthusiastic/mindless (depending on your point of view) runners in central midfield isn't a good blend and in the end Chaplow's stays at all his recent clubs have ended with misgivings about a lack of consistent quality.

[Smirking_Saint]

On another note, for all those calling Shneiderlin pretty innefective and not that good i pose you this question.

 

Xavi and Xabi Alonso. Neither the greatest tacklers in the world and neither break forwards from their midfield confines with any such regularity so does that make them completely ineffective and not good enough ??

 

NB - this does not mean i think Morgan is as good as Xavi or Xabi Alonso

[Thedelldays]

 

NB - this does not mean i think Morgan is as good as Xavi or Xabi Alonso

 

but would you have morgan in league 1 ahead of those two..?

[Smirking_Saint]

but would you have morgan in league 1 ahead of those two..?

 

Oh without a doubt.

 

My world 11 team i posted t'other day, i would have none of them for an assault on league 1 promotion.

[captainchris]

What is his pass completion percentage compared to any other player in the side then Weston?

 

He is always available to receive the ball in places where all our other players struggle to maintain composure.

 

You are missing the point! His passes are safe and don't affect a game, they are not 'assists'. His passes are decorative sometimes but affective in terms of the outcome of a game. He doesn't exert himself enough - doesn't bust a gut to get in game affecting place to win a game or prevent us loosing one. The team tend to carry him in short.....

[benjii]

You are simply convincing me that it is time that Spiderman was playing in a league where the other players are on his wavelength. I am of the opinion that anyone who thinks that Chaplow is a better player than Schneiderlin probably thought that all those ex-Saints players that are still playing in the premiership were crap (and for any one of them - plenty did think that they were crap)!

 

TBF, Delap and Higginbottom are crap.

[benjii]

The lad is absolute quality on the ball. He has an unbelievable first touch, and ability to keep the ball despitereal pressure. That is a rare talent at this level and if you or anyone else can't see that ability then I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to say that you don't know the game. The rest of the game, positioning etc. will come in time. I know he may leave, if the rumours are true sooner rather than later, but I hope not as he makes the game look easy and we will struggle to find that kind of player with the potential he has.

 

Remember, the Chaplow signing is not done. As much as I like Gobern, is he going to get us promoted?

 

Come off it. That's just hyperbole. He has a pretty good first touch.

[Smirking_Saint]

You are missing the point! His passes are safe and don't affect a game, they are not 'assists'. His passes are decorative sometimes but affective in terms of the outcome of a game. He doesn't exert himself enough - doesn't bust a gut to get in game affecting place to win a game or prevent us loosing one. The team tend to carry him in short.....

 

Not what i see

 

But thats football and opinion etc etc

[Chez]

Come off it. That's just hyperbole. He has a pretty good first touch.

 

nope, it is great.

[St_Tel49]

TBF, Delap and Higginbottom are crap.

 

Pulis appears to disagree with you. He has kept Stoke in the Prem for 2 or 3 years now. So whose opinion should I trust - his or yours? Mmmmm ... let me see now.

Edited 3 December, 2010 by St_Tel49

[SNSUN]

When I first saw Morgan, I though he was toss, but I mustard mit he has improved a great deal. The problem is that Hammond has found form, and the signing of Chaplow has provided us with a quality player that can get forward and score goals. It's good to have three central midfielders fighting for two spots, but sadly for Morgan, first choice at the moment is Deano and Chaplow.

 

Morgan is a player we should keep hold of as hard as possible. If we do get out this god forsaken league this season, he'll be a real asset in the Championship, we know Chaplow is a Championship quality player anyway (if we can sign him permanently, or indeed have already signed him permanently), but it's a new step up for Deano. Who knows how he'll fare in the nPC.

 

Failure to get promoted this season will see him gone anyway, and I dread to think about it but the likes of Fonte, Lallana and Barnard (and possibly Lambert) will follow suit. So, put simply, promotion is a must to keep them around.

 

Can we hang on to Morgan? Sure, we have the means to do it, it'll be the players' decision if he wants to go.

[Alain Perrin]

3 assists in 72 is even more damning.

 

Agreed. We should get rid of that Kelvin Davis guy too. His goal scoring record is abysmal.

 

There are few facts in life, but one that is undeniable is that Saints fans never appreciate a defensive midfielder (Matt Oakley was the worst player to grace the shirt (la, la, la) until he was injured and left).

 

You don't want your DM to be 'getting forward' a la Chaplow - because it leaves a big hole if the attack breaks down. The role is never going to be spectacular, but it is important.

 

I rate Morgan, I don't think he's the greatest in the world (to compare to Scholes or Svensson is stupid), but for our level and above he's a very good player. He's still young and will play at a higher level, hopefully with Saints.

[Clifford Nelson]

"mustard mit"???

[Andy_Porter]

I've said for a while need to trust Schneiderlin to do the holding role on his own and just sit and play a more attacking partner, Chaplow would be perfect. Our best team IMO would involve Schneiderlin sitting, Chaplow box to box and then Guly in the hole, slightly harsh on Hammond who has improved a lot under Adkins but that would be my team setup.

 

Playing two midfielders who neither attack nor defend seems pointless, the inclusion of Chaplow was a massive boost to the squad, now give him more lisence to get forward and get Schneiderlin holding.

[*Halo*]

As many have already suggested, the issue we have with Morgan, is not his ability, but rather the role that we are asking him to play.

 

Fitting a player of Morgan's technical calibre and style of play, into a rigid flat 4-4-2 formation, is tantamount to inadvertently stifling his creativity.

 

Here's why I feel this to be the case, and how I believe we could see the best of Morgan:

 

 

With respect to the Anders comparison, I've always thought he has the same sort of style to Xabi Alonso (obviously not in the same league as yet). The sort of player who keeps the team passing, retains possession but tends to sit too deep to regularly get on the score sheet.

 

Exactly this.

 

The reason for this, is that Morgan is neither a Defensive/Holding Midfielder, a Box-to-Box Central Midfielder, or an Attacking Midfielder/Advanced Playmaker. Those are pretty much the three standard roles available in a rigid flat 4-4-2 formation, if you are not wanting to compromise the defensive shape of the team.

 

Morgan is a natural Deep-lying Playmaker, and the comparison to the style and role (if not yet the level of current ability) of Xabi Alonso is indeed merited. In the system that we play, there is unfortunately not enough room for us to afford Morgan the luxury of the creative freedom he thrives on to play at the best of his ability.

 

He needs time and space within which to work his magic. The space, he is pretty apt at creating for himself with his vision and intelligent off the ball movement, but the time, is rarely available in the high tempo style we play, with only one other central midfield partner alongside him. (Not to mention in the blood and thunder of League 1).

 

As explained well here:

 

I almost think he is too much of a luxury in this league, as you need one midfielder to win the tackles and headers (Hammond) and one who will burst forward and get the odd goal (Chaplow). Although technically Morgan is better than both of these players on the whole, he is better than neither at the above mentioned aspects of his game. Therefore it makes it very difficult to fit him in, unless we play 3 centre mids.

 

I believe this sums up our situation with Morgan very well.

 

For the Deep-lying Playmaker to enjoy his greatest influence on the game, he ideally requires two central partners working alongside him. One in the role of Ball-winning Midfielder, which can either play a holding "anchor" role more or less alongside him, or equally be deployed to win the ball higher up pitch. The other, is that of an Attacking Midfielder or Advanced Playmaker. The former affords him the time he needs, by taking on most of the defensive responsibility and offering him protection, whilst the latter greatly aides him in creating space (in part by occupying opposition players in the final third) in which he can dictate the tempo, and effectively become the passing "heartbeat" of the team.

 

Whilst he still needs to have at least some defensive ability due to the positions he mainly occupies on the field of play, his main responsibility is to find and create space, for himself and others, and to always be available as an outlet to receive the ball and keep recycling possession, until the opportunity to either deliver the killer ball arises, or to otherwise bring a more advanced creative player into play.

 

On another note, for all those calling Schneiderlin pretty ineffective and not that good I pose you this question.

 

Xavi and Xabi Alonso. Neither the greatest tacklers in the world and neither break forwards from their midfield confines with any such regularity so does that make them completely ineffective and not good enough ??

 

NB - this does not mean i think Morgan is as good as Xavi or Xabi Alonso

 

Xavi is another excellent example of the type of role that Morgan has grown up developing his game to fulfil. Of course, he's not at that kind of standard ability wise yet (though has great potential), but as far as the role Xavi performs for Spain and Barcelona, that is the same type of player that Morgan Schneiderlin is.

 

So yes, as for trying to accommodate him into a rigid 4-4-2 formation, it does at times feel frustrating, and that he is a luxury that our current system of play will struggle to cater for. This certainly does not mean that Morgan will be incapable of turning in some good performances for us, especially in those games where he is able to find more space, it just means that we will be very unlikely to see the level of consistency we all hope for from him, when he is not being deployed in the role best suited to his natural abilities.

 

It is not necessarily that he is not capable of doing a job in more rigid midfield roles, just that we will be unlikely to get the best out of him in such restricted roles.

 

Just to finish off, I thought I'd offer an example of a system we could employ that I feel would enable us to see the best of Morgan.

 

It is a relatively fluid 4-2-3-1 formation:

 

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Davis/Bialkowski

 

 

Richardson/Butterfield . . . . . . Jaidi/Martin . . . . . . . . . . Fonte/Seaborne . . . . . Harding/Dickson

 

 

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Schneiderlin

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Hammond/Chaplow

 

 

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Lallana/Guly

 

 

. . . . Oxlade-Chamberlain . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Puncheon/Lallana

 

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Lambert/Barnard

 

 

 

Not that I am particularly advocating that we start playing this way, just wanted to add my thoughts on the Schneiderlin debate, and how we might make the best use of his obvious talents.

[Alain Perrin]

Hmmmm you've got 20 players in that formation, that'll never be allowed....

 

BTW. Morgan had a very good game yesterday.

[carljack]

He is more than just a Holding Midfielder imo,thought he looked class against Huddersfield and yesterday,reckon he likes Adkins style of Football as he is definately improving and we have not yet seen the very best of him.God its great to be posting positive comments!.

[georgeweahscousin]

I think that both Hammond and Schneiderlin had got a bit complacent, with the lack of competition. Since Chaplow signed, all three have performed much better.

[toofarnorth]

Schneiderlin's talent (discussed at length) deserves at least Championship level. This is more of a rough and tumble league and suits Chaplow's aggression in the centre. Morgan gives us alternatives depending on the opposition. I hope we retain Morgan at least till next season when we should be in the CCC and have a few more players alongside him to suit his style. It would be folly to lose him. Our priority this season (if we continue to lack two in-form strikers) is to bulldoze our way to promotion by not conceding or losing too many games.. Millwall did it, so should we. Even with our present complement of players.

 

To be fair Morgan won at lot in the middle yesterday including winning the ball just before one of our goals. This is certainly an area he is improving with every game.