Bailing out the Irish Republic

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

Do you agree that it is morally and financially wrong to be handing over £7b to Ireland after the crisis over there?

 

The State lost £11b Euros in providing unmanageable tax breaks for various corporations. It caused a loss of tens of thousands of British jobs when major companies relocated (eBay and Hertz just two off the top of my head but there are many more).

 

We are having to tighten our belts all round and we face savage cuts in spending yet Osborne sees nothing wrong in frittering away a huge sum of money on a country which has done us untold fiscal damage in the last few years.

[scotty]

The Irish renounced any right to expect financial help from us when they left our financial system. This is a eurozone problem; let the eurozone deal with it.

 

That is all

[dune]

We've got no choice, and the fact George Osborne is heir apparent to the Osborne Baronetcy of Ballentaylor and Ballylemon has nothing to do with it.

[bridge too far]

I think the counter-argument is two-fold.

 

Firstly, it's reported that Ireland is the biggest recipient of exports from the UK. So if the Irish economy were to fail, it would impact on our economy.

 

Secondly, one (or more?) of the Irish banks has been propped up by RBS and that's owned by the UK taxpayer. So if that bank/s fails, we lose out.

 

I understand the root cause of the problem (ridiculous over-exposure to risk by property owners and banks) but what I don't understand is why the Irish decision to try to reduce the deficit in a short time and by harsh measures hasn't worked. Isn't that what's being tried in the UK?

[pedg]

I think the counter-argument is two-fold.

 

Firstly, it's reported that Ireland is the biggest recipient of exports from the UK. So if the Irish economy were to fail, it would impact on our economy.

 

Secondly, one (or more?) of the Irish banks has been propped up by RBS and that's owned by the UK taxpayer. So if that bank/s fails, we lose out.

 

I understand the root cause of the problem (ridiculous over-exposure to risk by property owners and banks) but what I don't understand is why the Irish decision to try to reduce the deficit in a short time and by harsh measures hasn't worked. Isn't that what's being tried in the UK?

 

The problem is they get (got) a very large proportion of their tax income from property taxes. These collapsed with the recession so even with their cuts there was still a large difference between income and outgoings. Plus a lot of their growth has been in property where the market collapsed a lot more than here leaving the banks there with a proportionally larger amount of bad debt. On top of that they encouraged foreign companies to set up european offices in ireland with the low level or corporation tax and they run the risk of driving these companies away if they raise this (though they may be forced to as part of any deal as its an issue that the rest of europe are not happy about so would expect something in return for the bailout).

[Smirking_Saint]

7bil divided by the 7 mil population of this country is 10mil per head.

 

Rediculous.

 

We make 6 bil worth of cuts to help reduce our debt and now have eclipsed that by another billion.

[pedg]

7bil divided by the 7 mil population of this country is 10mil per head.

 

Rediculous.

 

We make 6 bil worth of cuts to help reduce our debt and now have eclipsed that by another billion.

 

Umm, I think we are talking American billions these days so its 1000 per head.

[bridge too far]

7bil divided by the 7 mil population of this country is 10mil per head.

 

Rediculous.

 

We make 6 bil worth of cuts to help reduce our debt and now have eclipsed that by another billion.

 

I think you'll find our population is nearer 70 million TBH

[LGTL]

I think the long, short and simple of it is that we would stand to lose more by not helping them and seeing their banking sector go to the wall, then the expenditure we are using to help them.

 

We probably owe it to them anyway for all those potatoes.

[Smirking_Saint]

I think you'll find our population is nearer 70 million TBH

 

Yeah i got that a little wrong lol.

 

Still, its a lot per person.

[Weston Super Saint]

Calm down dears, it's a loan [allegedly], and as such it is expected that the Irish will pay it back.

 

I guess if they don't we will have the right to take their country - like old Chinny boy and fratton park

 

Sounds like a sweet deal to me.

[JustMike]

so....

 

1) we have no money

 

2) what we do have we give it to the Irish!

 

Can see why we have no money!!

[Saintandy666]

Our banks have €140bn(£100bn ish) worth of loans and assets tied up with the Irish system. If they go bust, we're ****ed. It's beyond the question of is it morally correct, it is essential for us to survive ourselves.

 

Edit: Can I just add to people who seem to think we are totally bankrupt and bust, you are wrong... we still have plenty left in the pot to help us along the road. Our economy is huge and can take the hits it has taken as long as they don't become a consistant habit. We are not a Greece, an Ireland or an Iceland.

[CB Saint]

As andy says, this is not about christian charity, this is about looking after number one - the Uk. I am willing to bet we don't make the same offer when Portugal lines up for a loan.

[bridge too far]

As long as we're getting more in interest payments from the Irish than it's costing us to borrow the money in the first place.......

[dune]

As long as we're getting more in interest payments from the Irish than it's costing us to borrow the money in the first place.......

 

This. I don't think we should be ripping them off, but neither should we be charitable.

[aintforever]

Our banks have €140bn(£100bn ish) worth of loans and assets tied up with the Irish system. If they go bust, we're ****ed. It's beyond the question of is it morally correct, it is essential for us to survive ourselves..

 

Would these be "our" banks that are handing out billions in bonuses.

[dune]

As andy says, this is not about christian charity, this is about looking after number one - the Uk. I am willing to bet we don't make the same offer when Portugal lines up for a loan.

 

We should offer them nothing. Portugal going down the pan wouldn't affect us as much and therfeore it's the completely the Eurozones problem.

[Saintandy666]

Would these be "our" banks that are handing out billions in bonuses.

 

I don't like extortionate bonuses from the privatised banks as much as the next person, but if they make the profits... well, it's up to the company what they want to do with them. Bankers bonuses are entirely irrelevant to this issue.

Edited 22 November, 2010 by Saintandy666

[dune]

Would these be "our" banks that are handing out billions in bonuses.

 

Give over. The bonuses may not be palateable but we're living in a globalised world. If we start getting petty over bonuses which are a drop in the ocean in the scheme of things we'll cut off our noses to spite our faces. Shanghai would love to replace London and we cannot allow that to happen.

[solentstars]

Our banks have €140bn(£100bn ish) worth of loans and assets tied up with the Irish system. If they go bust, we're ****ed. It's beyond the question of is it morally correct, it is essential for us to survive ourselves.

 

Edit: Can I just add to people who seem to think we are totally bankrupt and bust, you are wrong... we still have plenty left in the pot to help us along the road. Our economy is huge and can take the hits it has taken as long as they don't become a consistant habit. We are not a Greece, an Ireland or an Iceland.

another example of the bankers messing up the world economy and being bailed out by the taxpayer again,while we have to suffer cuts.

[Saintandy666]

another example of the bankers messing up the world economy and being bailed out by the taxpayer again,while we have to suffer cuts.

 

What would have wanted? The banks not to lend any money? Because that would lead to pretty dire consequences as well. You can't have it both ways!

[dubai_phil]

Ridiculous, waste of money to prop up a stupid economic concept that was fatally flawed. It is basically a last gaps attempt to cover all the EMU ERM & Euro luvvies dating back to Maggie & Norman Lament (sic)

 

It also won't work. People make big bucks out of speculating and the portugese will be next.

 

And as for your tax money going to bail out banks who employed greedy stupid arrogant idiots doing greedy stupid deals for ridiculous bonus cheques, well that is just plain wrong.

 

It ain't gonna get any better.

 

Bet the Commies never thought they'd win the Cold War this way

[aintforever]

Give over. The bonuses may not be palateable but we're living in a globalised world. If we start getting petty over bonuses which are a drop in the ocean in the scheme of things we'll cut off our noses to spite our faces. Shanghai would love to replace London and we cannot allow that to happen.

 

It's not the bonuses themselves that is the gripe (although I think it was 5-6 billion handed out this year which is no drop in the ocean) but the fact that the banks are handing these amounts cash out amongst themselves shows how much profit the banks must be making.

 

If the banks are making such huge profits why are we worried about the effect Ireland being broke will have on them?

[dune]

It's not the bonuses themselves that is the gripe (although I think it was 5-6 billion handed out this year which is no drop in the ocean) but the fact that the banks are handing these amounts cash out amongst themselves shows how much profit the banks must be making.

 

If the banks are making such huge profits why are we worried about the effect Ireland being broke will have on them?

 

RBS is the bank that's most in danger, and RBS is weak and vulnerable. Oh and we own it.

[LGTL]

Their Government will be dissolved on December 7th and a General Election called for early January. Pretty much to be expected.

[Saint in Paradise]

We should offer them nothing. Portugal going down the pan wouldn't affect us as much and therfeore it's the completely the Eurozones problem.

 

Dune, I always got the idea you were fond of history as you like to quote Winstone a lot. Have

you therefore forgotten that Portugal is the UK's oldest ally. They were immence help against the

dastardly Spanish and French hundreds of years ago. Save Portugal !!!

[dune]

Dune, I always got the idea you were fond of history as you like to quote Winstone a lot. Have

you therefore forgotten that Portugal is the UK's oldest ally. They were immence help against the

dastardly Spanish and French hundreds of years ago. Save Portugal !!!

 

And they were also helpful in allowing Rhodesia use of the port of Beira in Mozambique, but alas times have moved on. They are the problem of the Eurozone because it's the Euro that has put them in the impossible position they find themselves. They needed to devalue but they couldn't.

[Thedelldays]

I wonder what traditional unionists think about mother England coming to the rescue....

 

probably thank us with a murder or two

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Maybe it will help go someway to healing the scars of yesteryear. I hope so as I like the Irish.

[trousers]

I'm doing my bit for the Irish economy. Going to see the Saw Doctors at Shepherds Bush on Friday.

 

Get that wasp off my sandwich!

[JustMike]

sorry Dune, but if this had been Labour making the decision to help Ireland you would have slagged them off. We have had months of "we all need to tighten our belts" and "cuts here / cuts there" and all of a sudden we have a spare *few million!! Make your minds up CONDEM

 

*edit...few billion

[scotty]

They are the problem of the Eurozone because it's the Euro that has put them in the impossible position they find themselves. They needed to devalue but they couldn't.

 

scotty in "agrees with dune" shocker

 

 

 

...only partly tho. The Irish put themselves in the impossible position by voting to join the eurozone, nobody held a gun to their heads, did they? (no jokes, tia)

[Thedelldays]

scotty in "agrees with dune" shocker

 

 

 

...only partly tho. The Irish put themselves in the impossible position by voting to join the eurozone, nobody held a gun to their heads, did they? (no jokes, tia)

they did vote NO once...but that was not good enough

[scotty]

they did vote NO once...but that was not good enough

 

Did they actually vote against the single currency? I thought it was the Nice treaty, and another european treaty that would have given other countries the same "advantages" which Ireland had enjoyed that they voted against. I was under the impression that the Irish public were in favour of adopting the euro.

[Saintandy666]

Robert Peston painted is very well just now. Ireland will be paying back this loan not us. It won't(if all goes to plan) cost us a penny in instalment payments and so on because they will pay it for us with interest going to the U.K as well. Basically, their credit rating is **** so we are borrowing the money for them. Don't see the issue with this one considering Ireland's close relationship with us.

[LGTL]

It makes perfect sense. I agree with Osbourne for once.

[bridge too far]

It makes perfect sense. I agree with Osbourne for once.

 

As do I - it's an extension of the action the UK took to prevent its own banks from failing.

[Fan The Flames]

As I'm from a Anglo-Irish family I will spend £300 worth of VAT I wasn't planning to spend to thank the government for showing solidarity to our close and entwined neighbour.

[buctootim]

Do you agree that it is morally and financially wrong to be handing over £7b to Ireland after the crisis over there?.

 

No I don't agree that its wrong. Its the right thing to do for a whole raft of reasons. Anyway its only a loan, not a gift.

[badgerx16]

As the Government is borrowing this money, when can we start the 'Tackling the ConDem debt mountain' thread ?

[Verbal]

Ridiculous, waste of money to prop up a stupid economic concept that was fatally flawed. It is basically a last gaps attempt to cover all the EMU ERM & Euro luvvies dating back to Maggie & Norman Lament (sic)

 

It also won't work. People make big bucks out of speculating and the portugese will be next.

 

And as for your tax money going to bail out banks who employed greedy stupid arrogant idiots doing greedy stupid deals for ridiculous bonus cheques, well that is just plain wrong.

 

It ain't gonna get any better.

 

Bet the Commies never thought they'd win the Cold War this way

 

I'll just pop in to say this -

 

One, it's a loan. With Interest.

 

Two, you're in no position to lecture. Dubai's indebtedness is 140% of GDP, which is actually MUCH worse than Ireland and Greece - and you, unlike Ireland or Greece, actually defaulted a year ago.

 

Three, just like Ireland, Dubai has lost its autonomy (to Abu Dhabi in your case) through it's hopeless, bubble-headed expansion built on nothing but sand, slave labour, complacency and the kind of herd mentality that gave ex-pats an even worse name than usual.

Edited 23 November, 2010 by Verbal

[thefunkygibbons]

I'm sure Ireland will not forget who its friends are

 

Worth doing as it is just a loan

[hamster]

Only if they drop all this 'potatoe famine' nonsense and stop aiming guns at our young soldiers. They need to stop fighting us and come and join the new united kingdom,

 

tfic

[hamster]

all joking aside, i heard today that the bank that has the contract for running our new pensioner's cash card system is not even an english one! i ain't no racist BUT even i think this is a tad silly at best.

 

i think we should join forces against the banks and any good stuff comes out of the cutbacks, let's us reap the rewards, offer ireland the pound.

 

bloody swiss bankers, trying to take over the world. ;-)

[dubai_phil]

I'll just pop in to say this -

 

One, it's a loan. With Interest.

 

Two, you're in no position to lecture. Dubai's indebtedness is 140% of GDP, which is actually MUCH worse than Ireland and Greece - and you, unlike Ireland or Greece, actually defaulted a year ago.

 

Three, just like Ireland, Dubai has lost its autonomy (to Abu Dhabi in your case) through it's hopeless, bubble-headed expansion built on nothing but sand, slave labour, complacency and the kind of herd mentality that gave ex-pats an even worse name than usual.

 

And four

 

What is the Security for the Irish loan?

 

Because it is needed to help stabilize the Euro and stop contagion spreading, what happens IF as is highly likely the contagion spreads?

 

The Euro is still a project built upon unsound foundations. Conceptually and for people like us gooing on business trips or holidays into Europe it is a great help, but the initial start up was flawed (Ambrose Evans-Pritchard explains it better than me every week in the Torygraph).

 

So the contagion can and likely will still spread. Ireland is using it to shore up their banking system because THEY admitted the full extent of the losses by their banks - yet UK, Portugal, Spain & Greece have still kept that quiet. Helping out a friend in need is a good idea, BUT the Euro could still blow apart in the next months and some countries could be forced to leave and devalue.

 

What happens to that loan with interest then? Ireland devalues by 20 or 30% which is what some commentators believe is the only solution, UK PLC (ie the taxpayer) just lost 2 or 3 billion which SHOULD have been spent on NHS or Defence.....

 

 

Also, don't confuse long term ex pats with the Bling based trash that the Daily Mail forced onto this City with their "If you haven't bought Buy to Let property in Dubai you are not Middle Class" rubbish that they printed every week up until the crash.

 

Dubai's indebteness is also nearly double the headline figures, everyone quotes what it owes to International Lenders. It forgets that it hasn't paid any contractors for the work done to date. A great deal of those loans were p1ssed away in marketing and other "corrupt" scams. Ex pats ripped off as much as the locals. And finally, the term expat is NOT limited to Brits abroad. Most of those charged with corruption down here ARE expats - from Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, India, Egypt etc, as well as the locals.

 

The reaason I comment is that the picture is far worse than is being painted in the press. Dubai 140% of GDP? think again, probably nearer 200% when the contractors are added to that. Autonomy loss? mate far more than that is still at risk.

 

The ship is holed below the water line, the answer is to keep bailing out faster and HOPE that it calms the markets....

 

I still haven't read a single ALTERNATIVE strategy.

 

We have a term for hope down here, it is called insh'allah.

 

Not really happy that global leaders are putting the future of my kids, my friends who are being laid off at age 52 in the UK and my savings for some kind of retirement down to The Will of God

Edited 24 November, 2010 by dubai_phil

[Draino76]

I hear we are charging 4% interest pa.

 

Thats a cheeky £280,000,000.00/pa we're robbing of the Irish for the next 4 years.

[alpine_saint]

Superb.

 

We have scrapped the Navy, the force that has protected this nation for centuries, but we can find more than the saving coming from it to bail out a nation that despises us and goes out of its way to p*ss us off on the international political scene.

[Redondo Saint]

Dune, I always got the idea you were fond of history as you like to quote Winstone a lot. Have

you therefore forgotten that Portugal is the UK's oldest ally. They were immence help against the

dastardly Spanish and French hundreds of years ago. Save Portugal !!!

 

Exactly. What else woud we drink with our stilton?