What's wrong with Lord Young's comments?

[dune]

No he wasn't - he said "the vast majority" and also referred to the '"so called recesssion", before adding "because anybody, most people with a mortgage who were paying a lot of money each month, suddenly started paying very little each month" - the average reduction over the last 2 years has been just over £100 per month, from £4792 pa to £3466, according to Sainsbury's, ( http://www.everyinvestor.co.uk/personal-finance/mortgages/cost-of-running-average-home-falls-14pc-to--8-059- ), hardly equates to 'paying very little'.

 

And as for " I don't remember in 07 being short of money", he wouldn't, he's a multi-millionaire.

 

The Socialist gospel of envy rears its ugly head again.

[badgerx16]

The Socialist gospel of envy rears its ugly head again.

There is nothing envious about poiniting out that somebody who thinks £10K is small change is unlikely to understand the concept of 'short of money'. It is just one of a number of remarks that indicate poor judgement, yet again, in a member of Government.

[dune]

Winston Churchill on Socialism, Leftism and Communism

 

On Socialism:

 

"If I were asked the difference between Socialism and Communism, I could only reply that the Socialist tries to lead us to disaster by foolish words and the Communist could try to drive us there by violent deeds."

 

"Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the abject worship of the State."

 

"Government of the duds, by the duds, and for the duds."

 

"No socialist system can be established without a political police."

 

"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy."

 

"It is not alone that property, in all its forms, is struck at, but that liberty, in all its forms, is challenged by the fundamental conceptions of socialism."

 

"'All men are created equal' says the American Declaration of Independence. 'All men shall be kept equal' say the Socialists."

 

"Some see private enterprise as a predatory animal to be shot, others look on it as a cow to be milked but a few see it as a sturdy horse pulling a wagon."

 

"If you destroy a free market, you create a black market."

 

"The vice of capitalism is that it stands for the unequal sharing of blessings; whereas the virtue of socialism is that it stands for the equal sharing of misery."

 

"Socialism assails the pre-eminence of the individual."

 

"Is it better to have equality at the price of poverty or well-being at the price of inequality?"

 

"The flame of Christian ethics is still our best guide...only on this basis can we reconcile the rights of the individual with the demands of society."

 

On leftists:

 

"They are the most disagreeable of people...Their insincerity? Can you not feel a sense of disgust at the arrogant presumption of superiority of these people? Superiority of intellect! Then, when it comes to practice, down they fall with a wallop not only to the level of ordinary human beings but to a level which is even far below the average."

 

"These very high intellectual persons who wake up every morning...see what they can find to demolish, to undermine, or cast away."

 

"Let them quit these gospels of envy, hate, and malice. Let them abandon the utter fallacy, the grotesque, erroneous, fatal blunder of believing that by limiting the enterprise of man, by riveting the shackles of a false equality...they will increase the well-being of the world."

 

On Communism:

 

"Bolshevism is not a policy; it is a disease."

 

"The day will come when it will be recognized without doubt throughout the civilized world that the strangling of Bolshevism at birth would have been an untold blessing to the human race."

[rocknrollman no2]

Of course Churchill was such a great role model wasnt he?

If it wasnt for the fact he stood up to Hitler,Churchill would have been remembered differently.

This is the man who helped plan the Gallippoli disaster,which was so bad and cost so many allied lives, he felt the need to resign afterwards.

This was the man that was so unpopular between the wars,that many (even in his own party),thought his political career over

He wanted to send in troops against striking Welsh miners who were arguing for better conditions.

Straight after the war,the country had a general election and threw him out of office because he was considered outdated with his views.

So Dune,quoting Churchill makes no difference to me.

[dune]

And in other news a Labour MP who branded the middle class ‘hypocrites and drunkards’ spent night in a cell after being arrested for drink driving:

 

A Labour MP who launched an extraordinary attack on middle class voters was today convicted of refusing to provide a breath sample to a police officer.

 

Eric Joyce was banned from driving and now has a criminal record after he was arrested by police and spent last night in the cells.

 

He refused to take a breath test after he was spoken to by officers in Grangemouth, Falkirk, and today appeared in court handcuffed to a burly custody officer.

 

The 50-year-old launched an extraordinary rant at voters just three days ago in an article in which he branded them liars, racists, drunkards and even paedophiles.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1331164/Labour-MP-branded-middle-class-hypocrites-drunkards-spends-night-cell-arrested-drink-driving.html

[LGTL]

Of course Churchill was such a great role model wasnt he?

If it wasnt for the fact he stood up to Hitler,Churchill would have been remembered differently.

This is the man who helped plan the Gallippoli disaster,which was so bad and cost so many allied lives, he felt the need to resign afterwards.

This was the man that was so unpopular between the wars,that many (even in his own party),thought his political career over

He wanted to send in troops against striking Welsh miners who were arguing for better conditions.

Straight after the war,the country had a general election and threw him out of office because he was considered outdated with his views.

So Dune,quoting Churchill makes no difference to me.

 

Was just about to write the same thing. Not forgetting he refused to stand up to recognise the Merchant Navy during the forces Victory Parade after WW2. Using Churchill for quotes like he is some devine leader is wide of the mark.

[aintforever]

Can see why he was booted out straight after the war now.

[Thedelldays]

Was just about to write the same thing. Not forgetting he refused to stand up to recognise the Merchant Navy during the forces Victory Parade after WW2. Using Churchill for quotes like he is some devine leader is wide of the mark.

 

however....what he did for the country, europe and the world...(imo) makes him our greatest leader....

[rocknrollman no2]

How about Geoffery Archer who used to be the treasurer of the Tory party?

How many times was he convicted of fraud?

How many times was he made bankrupt?

How many affairs did he have,at a time when the Tories were preaching family values?In fact i remember John Major making a big thing about the importance of a strong family,just as details of his affair with Edwina Curry were made public.

The Tories a party of hypocrites.

[Thedelldays]

How about Geoffery Archer who used to be the treasurer of the Tory party?

How many times was he convicted of fraud?

How many times was he made bankrupt?

How many affairs did he have,at a time when the Tories were preaching family values?In fact i remember John Major making a big thing about the importance of a strong family,just as details of his affair with Edwina Curry were made public.

The Tories a party of hypocrites.

 

why do you single out the tories for stick on that one.....?

[badgerx16]

Dune, just remind us -

1) where was Churchill born ?

2) Into which family ?

3) Who was his father ?

4) What political offices did his father hold, and for which party ?

 

Hardly going to be enamoured of the 'great unwashed'.

 

And for another of WSC's political judgements, try this http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/soutikbiswas/2010/10/how_churchill_starved_india.html, but as it's on the BBC it's bound to be biased.

[rocknrollman no2]

why do you single out the tories for stick on that one.....?

 

Yeah you are right Thedelldays,please include all political parties in that statement.

Edited 19 November, 2010 by rocknrollman no2
spelling and beer dont mix

[dune]

I'm shocked that the forum Socialists have ignored the post about the Labour MP refusing to co-operate with police and failing to provide a specimen.

 

If it had been a Tory they'd have had a field day.

[rocknrollman no2]

I'm shocked that the forum Socialists have ignored the post about the Labour MP refusing to co-operate with police and failing to provide a specimen.

 

If it had been a Tory they'd have had a field day.

 

Dune i should think that most people on here,whatever their political values,are not surprised that an MP has made a tit of himself.

[Junction 9]

I'm shocked that the forum Socialists have ignored the post about the Labour MP refusing to co-operate with police and failing to provide a specimen.

 

If it had been a Tory they'd have had a field day.

 

Oh I'm sorry. That incident really has made me re-evaluate the entire concept of socialism.

[Sheaf Saint]

I'm shocked that the forum Socialists have ignored the post about the Labour MP refusing to co-operate with police and failing to provide a specimen.

 

If it had been a Tory they'd have had a field day.

 

And I am not in the least bit shocked that you have managed to turn yet another thread into a rant about socialism. If someone started a thread about flowers in springtime you would find a way to blame socialist marxist leftist communist yoghurt-knitting tree-hugging hippies for getting them banned in some way.

 

Change the record for once, eh?

[badgerx16]

Dune i should think that most people on here,whatever their political values,are not surprised that an MP has made a tit of himself.

This

[badgerx16]

I'm shocked that the forum Socialists have ignored the post about the Labour MP refusing to co-operate with police and failing to provide a specimen.

 

If it had been a Tory they'd have had a field day.

And I'm shocked you haven't responded to my post about WSC.

[badgerx16]

Change the record for once, eh?

He can't, it's the only one he's got, ( and it's a 78 at that ).

[bridge too far]

He can't, it's the only one he's got, ( and it's a 78 at that ).

 

He certainly has a wind-up gramaphone!

[Robsk II]

Dune - in all seriousness, do you actually know what socialism is? Have you any idea about what 'left wing' or liberal actually are other than easily used terms for the media to scaremonger and scapegoat? They're very convenient terms, very easy to jump on, to brand others and so on. It does seem you are very keen to lambast various concepts, roundly, so I can't help but assume that you don't know much about them. Either that or you have little or no capacity for objective or rational thought.

[pedg]

Dune - in all seriousness, do you actually know what socialism is? Have you any idea about what 'left wing' or liberal actually are other than easily used terms for the media to scaremonger and scapegoat? They're very convenient terms, very easy to jump on, to brand others and so on. It does seem you are very keen to lambast various concepts, roundly, so I can't help but assume that you don't know much about them. Either that or you have little or no capacity for objective or rational thought.

 

I do wonder if Dune is the Steven Colbert of saints web.

[Robsk II]

Not as clever, not as funny.

[badgerx16]

Dune ....... or you have little or no capacity for objective or rational thought.

Of course he has objective thoughts, he objects to anything state owned, state financed, or that doesn't make him money.

[Robsk II]

Maybe he should just get a job?

[Sheaf Saint]

Dune - in all seriousness, do you actually know what socialism is? Have you any idea about what 'left wing' or liberal actually are other than easily used terms for the media to scaremonger and scapegoat? They're very convenient terms, very easy to jump on, to brand others and so on. It does seem you are very keen to lambast various concepts, roundly, so I can't help but assume that you don't know much about them. Either that or you have little or no capacity for objective or rational thought.

 

Taking into account the fact that he considered the Blair/Brown Nu Labour government to be socialist, I rather suspect he doesn't.

[thesaint sfc]

Completely agree - I've just bought my first house on interest only and I'm loving it. Renting out 2 bedrooms for £400 a month each. Not paying a penny for anything - saving up a nice tidy sum in my bank - then once I've sorted out my career a bit I'll go on to repayment and pay off a big chunk of my mortgage with the money I've saved up in my bank account.

[Wilko]

Winston Churchill on Socialism, Leftism and Communism

 

On Socialism:

 

"If I were asked the difference between Socialism and Communism, I could only reply that the Socialist tries to lead us to disaster by foolish words and the Communist could try to drive us there by violent deeds."

 

"Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the abject worship of the State."

 

"Government of the duds, by the duds, and for the duds."

 

"No socialist system can be established without a political police."

 

"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy."

 

"It is not alone that property, in all its forms, is struck at, but that liberty, in all its forms, is challenged by the fundamental conceptions of socialism."

 

"'All men are created equal' says the American Declaration of Independence. 'All men shall be kept equal' say the Socialists."

 

"Some see private enterprise as a predatory animal to be shot, others look on it as a cow to be milked but a few see it as a sturdy horse pulling a wagon."

 

"If you destroy a free market, you create a black market."

 

"The vice of capitalism is that it stands for the unequal sharing of blessings; whereas the virtue of socialism is that it stands for the equal sharing of misery."

 

"Socialism assails the pre-eminence of the individual."

 

"Is it better to have equality at the price of poverty or well-being at the price of inequality?"

 

"The flame of Christian ethics is still our best guide...only on this basis can we reconcile the rights of the individual with the demands of society."

 

On leftists:

 

"They are the most disagreeable of people...Their insincerity? Can you not feel a sense of disgust at the arrogant presumption of superiority of these people? Superiority of intellect! Then, when it comes to practice, down they fall with a wallop not only to the level of ordinary human beings but to a level which is even far below the average."

 

"These very high intellectual persons who wake up every morning...see what they can find to demolish, to undermine, or cast away."

 

"Let them quit these gospels of envy, hate, and malice. Let them abandon the utter fallacy, the grotesque, erroneous, fatal blunder of believing that by limiting the enterprise of man, by riveting the shackles of a false equality...they will increase the well-being of the world."

 

On Communism:

 

"Bolshevism is not a policy; it is a disease."

 

"The day will come when it will be recognized without doubt throughout the civilized world that the strangling of Bolshevism at birth would have been an untold blessing to the human race."

 

Winston Churchill on quotes:

 

It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations.

[Faz]

Of course Churchill was such a great role model wasnt he?

If it wasnt for the fact he stood up to Hitler,Churchill would have been remembered differently.

This is the man who helped plan the Gallippoli disaster,which was so bad and cost so many allied lives, he felt the need to resign afterwards.This was the man that was so unpopular between the wars,that many (even in his own party),thought his political career over

He wanted to send in troops against striking Welsh miners who were arguing for better conditions.

Straight after the war,the country had a general election and threw him out of office because he was considered outdated with his views.

So Dune,quoting Churchill makes no difference to me.

 

True, he then re-enlisted in the Army and saw service on the Western Front. That is the mark of the man. Can you imagine any of our leaders today (of whatever persuasion) doing that? He was without doubt a flawed character, but he was a man of his time, at the right time, thank goodness.

 

Your petty character assassination is, frankly, embarrassing.

[rocknrollman no2]

True, he then re-enlisted in the Army and saw service on the Western Front. That is the mark of the man. Can you imagine any of our leaders today (of whatever persuasion) doing that? He was without doubt a flawed character, but he was a man of his time, at the right time, thank goodness.

 

Your petty character assassination is, frankly, embarrassing.

 

I disagree.

Sure Churchill did come along at the right time and he did stand up to the Nazis when a lot of our government wanted to broker a piece deal and he should be remembered for that,but that doesnt change the fact that he did make a lot of mistakes and was very ruthless.Im not trying to put Churchill in a bad light,im just saying that he wasnt the greatest person ever,as some on here would have us think.

[dune]

I disagree.

Sure Churchill did come along at the right time and he did stand up to the Nazis when a lot of our government wanted to broker a piece deal and he should be remembered for that,but that doesnt change the fact that he did make a lot of mistakes and was very ruthless.Im not trying to put Churchill in a bad light,im just saying that he wasnt the greatest person ever,as some on here would have us think.

 

He would certainly be in my top 5, behind Cecil Rhodes, Ian Smith, Clive of India, and Sir Francis Drake.

[Faz]

I disagree.

Sure Churchill did come along at the right time and he did stand up to the Nazis when a lot of our government wanted to broker a piece deal and he should be remembered for that,but that doesnt change the fact that he did make a lot of mistakes and was very ruthless.Im not trying to put Churchill in a bad light,im just saying that he wasnt the greatest person ever,as some on here would have us think.

 

Fair enough.

[badgerx16]

He would certainly be in my top 5, behind Cecil Rhodes, Ian Smith, Clive of India, and Sir Francis Drake.

You missed off Oswald Mosley

[franny]

True, he then re-enlisted in the Army and saw service on the Western Front. That is the mark of the man. Can you imagine any of our leaders today (of whatever persuasion) doing that? He was without doubt a flawed character, but he was a man of his time, at the right time, thank goodness.

 

Your petty character assassination is, frankly, embarrassing.

Agree with this. Yes he made a misataje with Gallipoli but accpeted responsibility and resigned. Did not see Blair or Brown showing any shame or even considering following the same path after their lies to go to war in Iraq and costing many many lives (British & Iraqi) and true to the spirit of the Labour leadership over the past 13 years just brazened it out. Yes we can judge Churchill harshly in some areas but head and shoulders above the last PM's.

[dune]

Agree with this. Yes he made a misataje with Gallipoli but accpeted responsibility and resigned. Did not see Blair or Brown showing any shame or even considering following the same path after their lies to go to war in Iraq and costing many many lives (British & Iraqi) and true to the spirit of the Labour leadership over the past 13 years just brazened it out. Yes we can judge Churchill harshly in some areas but head and shoulders above the last PM's.

 

I think Margaret Thatcher was the closest we saw to Churchill in the 20th century.

[rocknrollman no2]

I think Margaret Thatcher was the closest we saw to Churchill in the 20th century.

 

When Churchill died,he had a state funeral.

When Thatcher dies,most people want a party.

I think a lot of people disagree with you Dune.

[pedg]

When Churchill died,he had a state funeral.

When Thatcher dies,most people want a party.

I think a lot of people disagree with you Dune.

 

I prefer "Most people can remember what they were doing when Thatcher stepped down..... Smiling".

[dune]

I prefer "Most people can remember what they were doing when Thatcher stepped down..... Smiling".

 

I wasn't smiling. It was the end of an era and a sad day. She was brilliant.

[pedg]

I wasn't smiling. It was the end of an era and a sad day. She was brilliant.

 

And the fact people such as yourself were not smiling added to the smiles of the rest of us...

[dune]

And the fact people such as yourself were not smiling added to the smiles of the rest of us...

 

It's swings and roundabouts. The next 5 years are going to be great. I just hope the Conservatives get in with a majority in 2015 and then we'll see some real action.

[dune]

David Mellor is spot on in all respects.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtAijmbI3aw

[badgerx16]

David Mellor is spot on in all respects.

I particularly liked "David Cameron failed to win the election despite being against Gordon Brown"

[badgerx16]

Angela Eagle is spot on in all respects.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtAijmbI3aw

[pedg]

David Mellor is spot on in all respects.

 

But we don't have Mellor we have Osbourne. Who in 2006 declared:

Ireland stands as a shining example of the art of the possible in long-term economic policymaking.

Be afraid, be very afraid.....

[dune]

Angela Eagle is spot on in all respects.

 

Where did they dig that rat bag Socialist up from?

[dune]

I particularly liked "David Cameron failed to win the election despite being against Gordon Brown"

 

It's true though. I support Cameron because he's a Conservative, but I do think he's trying too hard to appease the left of centre. Politically he's walking a tightrope as he needs the centre ground, but if he's not careful his neglection of his core support will cause him trouble internally.

[badgerx16]

Where did they dig that rat bag Socialist up from?

Front bench of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition.

 

Oh, and was that an example of biased BBC programming ?

 

Where the f()ck did they drag Mellor up from ?

[dune]

Front bench of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition.

 

God help us if Labour ever get back in with such a dopey woman on the front bench.

[badgerx16]

God help us if Labour ever get back in with such a dopey woman on the front bench.

At least we'll never suffer Mellor again.

[rocknrollman no2]

Dune you should not like Mellor.Wasnt he outed as a Chelsea fan? lol.