Aung San Suu Kyi

[benjii]

The Beeb are interrupting Fighting Talk to bring a special report about this Burmese lady's apparent release from house arrest.

 

I am the only person who couldn't give a ****?

[Gingeletiss]

I expect if you had been under house arrest for 15 years, you may be a tad upset, but then again, you are Benji, master shocker!

[bridge too far]

I think this is as important an event as the release of Nelson Mandela.

[dune]

I think a democratic Burma is important because they have mineral wealth London listed companies can exploit.

 

Burma, once an important producer and exporter of crude petroleum, lead, silver, and zinc in Asia during the

1950's, produced only modest amounts of metallic minerals, such as chromium, copper, gold, lead, silver, tin, tungsten, and

zinc; industrial minerals, such as barite, clays, dolomite, feldspar, gypsum, limestone, precious stones, and salt; and

mineral fuels, such as coal, natural gas, and crude petroleum. Most of the production was for its own consumption.

However, most of the jade and precious stones production, such as diamond, rubies, sapphires, and other gems, and certain

amounts of copper, tin, and zinc were exported. Burma, with only 57 % of its land geologically mapped, has potential for a

wide variety of uncharted minerals

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

I think a democratic Burma is important because they have mineral wealth London listed companies can exploit.

 

Much like me, you never stop do you?

[dune]

Much like me, you never stop do you?

 

I beg your parden? Clearly a capitalist system would benefit UK plc and the Burmese people because London listed mining companies would invest in the country. Grow up TLS.

[Sheaf Saint]

I think a democratic Burma is important because they have mineral wealth London listed companies can exploit.

 

Burma, once an important producer and exporter of crude petroleum, lead, silver, and zinc in Asia during the

1950's, produced only modest amounts of metallic minerals, such as chromium, copper, gold, lead, silver, tin, tungsten, and

zinc; industrial minerals, such as barite, clays, dolomite, feldspar, gypsum, limestone, precious stones, and salt; and

mineral fuels, such as coal, natural gas, and crude petroleum. Most of the production was for its own consumption.

However, most of the jade and precious stones production, such as diamond, rubies, sapphires, and other gems, and certain

amounts of copper, tin, and zinc were exported. Burma, with only 57 % of its land geologically mapped, has potential for a

wide variety of uncharted minerals

 

Is that really all you care about dune: the mineral wealth that can be exploited by other nations for their own purposes?

 

Do you really care nothing about the human rights abuses and atrocities that are carried out by the military regime in Burma?

 

Do you actually have one single shred of human decency in you?

[dune]

Is that really all you care about dune: the mineral wealth that can be exploited by other nations for their own purposes?

 

Do you really care nothing about the human rights abuses and atrocities that are carried out by the military regime in Burma?

 

Do you actually have one single shred of human decency in you?

 

All your left wing enthusiasm is admireable, but in the real world it's only the capitalist system and trade that be the salvation of third world countries. They have in their ground what only the west has the means and expertise to extract. We will benefit, they will benefit.

[JackFrost]

I think a democratic Burma is important because they have mineral wealth London listed companies can exploit.

 

Burma, once an important producer and exporter of crude petroleum, lead, silver, and zinc in Asia during the

1950's, produced only modest amounts of metallic minerals, such as chromium, copper, gold, lead, silver, tin, tungsten, and

zinc; industrial minerals, such as barite, clays, dolomite, feldspar, gypsum, limestone, precious stones, and salt; and

mineral fuels, such as coal, natural gas, and crude petroleum. Most of the production was for its own consumption.

However, most of the jade and precious stones production, such as diamond, rubies, sapphires, and other gems, and certain

amounts of copper, tin, and zinc were exported. Burma, with only 57 % of its land geologically mapped, has potential for a

wide variety of uncharted minerals

 

Unfortunately the French got there years before us

[benjii]

I appreciate it's not nice to be under house arrest and I think the Burmese regime is bad.

 

But... I don't see why the excessive interest in this woman. It just seems somewhat fashionable. I think Burma is this season's Palestine.

[Sheaf Saint]

All your left wing enthusiasm is admireable, but in the real world it's only the capitalist system and trade that be the salvation of third world countries. They have in their ground what only the west has the means and expertise to extract. We will benefit, they will benefit.

 

Yeah, because it's really helped them so far hasn't it. The capitalist system only works by exploitation of the already poor, and this will always be so. Forgive me if I don't share your belief that capitalism will ultimately prevail for the good of all mankind, because it most definitely won't.

[benjii]

Yeah, because it's really helped them so far hasn't it. The capitalist system only works by exploitation of the already poor, and this will always be so. Forgive me if I don't share your belief that capitalism will ultimately prevail for the good of all mankind, because it most definitely won't.

 

You're right. What would really help them is a nice Soviet system or a dictatorship or military junta or something.

 

Capitalist liberal democracy is clearly the worst of all the options.

[scotty]

I think this is as important an event as the release of Nelson Mandela.

 

this.

[JackFrost]

I appreciate it's not nice to be under house arrest and I think the Burmese regime is bad.

 

But... I don't see why the excessive interest in this woman. It just seems somewhat fashionable. I think Burma is this season's Palestine.

 

Western countries show her as a 'martyr of democracy', a small voice fighting against the military junta, which is all well and good

 

Unfortunately the irony is, it's the same western countries that freely do trade deals, prop up and finance the junta that she is so inherently opposed to.

[dune]

The curse of the blood rubies: Inside Burma's brutal gem trade

 

They are the most expensive gems per carat on Earth - and Burma is blessed with an abundance of them. The trade in Burmese rubies is banned, but as a Live investigation discovers, the country's corrupt military junta is forcing people to mine them in slave-labour conditions to line their own pockets - and business is booming

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1312382/The-curse-blood-rubies-Inside-Burmas-brutal-gem-trade.html

 

The mineral wealth is what is keeping the Milliary junta in power, thanks to Marxist China buying the blood diamonds. It's an identical situation to that of Rhodesia where the Chinese are sneaking out cargo planes of blood diamonds from the Marange field. For those of you on the left that want to make a small stand can I suggest you stop buying Chinese products.

[JackFrost]

I think this is as important an event as the release of Nelson Mandela.

 

Er, this is the 3rd time she's been released.

 

Give it a few years and she'll be back under house arrest as soon as the junta decides she has too much influence.

[bridge too far]

Western countries show her as a 'martyr of democracy', a small voice fighting against the military junta, which is all well and good

 

Unfortunately the irony is, it's the same western countries that freely do trade deals, prop up and finance the junta that she is so inherently opposed to.

 

A bit like the UK brown-nosing the Chinese, really.

[JackFrost]

The curse of the blood rubies: Inside Burma's brutal gem trade

 

They are the most expensive gems per carat on Earth - and Burma is blessed with an abundance of them. The trade in Burmese rubies is banned, but as a Live investigation discovers, the country's corrupt military junta is forcing people to mine them in slave-labour conditions to line their own pockets - and business is booming

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1312382/The-curse-blood-rubies-Inside-Burmas-brutal-gem-trade.html

 

The mineral wealth is what is keeping the Milliary junta in power, thanks to Marxist China buying the blood diamonds. It's an identical situation to that of Rhodesia where the Chinese are sneaking out cargo planes of blood diamonds from the Marange field. For those of you on the left that want to make a small stand can I suggest you stop buying Chinese products.

 

LOL you reckon it's just the Chinese?

 

The French are openly vetoing any effective sanctions against the regime because of their commercial interests involving oil deals with the junta.

[Sheaf Saint]

You're right. What would really help them is a nice Soviet system or a dictatorship or military junta or something.

 

Capitalist liberal democracy is clearly the worst of all the options.

 

They already have a military junta and the people of the country are suffering badly for it. The point I am making is that dune believes that only foreign plundering of their mineral resources will help the Burmese people, but historical experience tells us that when multinationals get their hands on resources in poor countries, the people of that country are the very last people to benefit from it (just look at the oil-drilling in Nigeria if you want an example).

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

I beg your parden? Clearly a capitalist system would benefit UK plc and the Burmese people because London listed mining companies would invest in the country. Grow up TLS.

 

You've misread what I meant. I was saying that regardless of topic, much like myself, you still find someway of being partisan. For example, in your previous post, you make it quite clear that you only want her freed as it will eventually (in your opinion of course) have a positive effect on Britain.

[dune]

A bit like the UK brown-nosing the Chinese, really.

 

I agree, but unfortunately we are just small member of a global economy.

[dune]

You've misread what I meant. I was saying that regardless of topic, much like myself, you still find someway of being partisan. For example, in your previous post, you make it quite clear that you only want her freed as it will eventually (in your opinion of course) have a positive effect on Britain.

 

I make no apology for that. At present Marxist China and Burmas millitary junta are profiting. I'd much rather it was Britain that was profiting, and i'm sure you'd much rather the Burmese people were too. The only way for the Burmese people to benefit from the mineral wealth is through a Capitalist democracy.

[dune]

LOL you reckon it's just the Chinese?

 

The French are openly vetoing any effective sanctions against the regime because of their commercial interests involving oil deals with the junta.

 

I was unaware of this. Do you have a link to further reading? I haven't looked at burma in detail, but just knew the scum Marxists were in on the act as in Rhodesia.

[david in sweden]

She's as much a Muslim as she is an Eskimo. She's actually a Buddhist.

 

As for being as important as the release of Mandela, there were probably people thinking that in 1995 when she got released the first time. . .

 

.....her activities seem to upset the present administration a lot.

Last time she was out she walked over the road against a red light ..(or something equally threatening to state security) and whilst in custody some years ago had contact with a foreign journo' - which was enough for them to extend the detention order even further.

 

House arrest? ...Most annoying thing must be looking at the same wallpaper every day !

[rocknrollman no2]

I think this is as important an event as the release of Nelson Mandela.

 

Well said.

[benjii]

They already have a military junta and the people of the country are suffering badly for it. The point I am making is that dune believes that only foreign plundering of their mineral resources will help the Burmese people, but historical experience tells us that when multinationals get their hands on resources in poor countries, the people of that country are the very last people to benefit from it (just look at the oil-drilling in Nigeria if you want an example).

 

Ok, and my point was that any system will exploit these resources. You can't deny that external trade and investment bring some benefits, surely? Better than just propping up a cadre of Thrasymachusian generals?

[JackFrost]

I was unaware of this. Do you have a link to further reading? I haven't looked at burma in detail, but just knew the scum Marxists were in on the act as in Rhodesia.

 

From the Burma Campaign itself

 

http://www.burmacampaign.co.uk/index.php/news-and-reports/news-stories/Burmese-Exiles-Protest-over-Frances-Collaboration-with-Dictatorship/8

[dune]

From the Burma Campaign itself

 

http://www.burmacampaign.co.uk/index.php/news-and-reports/news-stories/Burmese-Exiles-Protest-over-Frances-Collaboration-with-Dictatorship/8

 

Thanks have a read in a sec. I've just been looking for a mining firm in burma that might be a potential investment. Found Ivanhoe Mining, listed on the NYSE, but not sure if they still mine in burma. I noticed in another article that Ang sung etc met with representatives of the firm in 2004 and the firms driver was then banged up for 7 years and the company official kicked out. I have a feeling that Ivanhoe left around this time. Given their position in the region, and relations with Ang Sung etc, they could be worth a punt if it looks like Ang Sung (or her party) is going to gain power in the future.

[Sheaf Saint]

Ok, and my point was that any system will exploit these resources. You can't deny that external trade and investment bring some benefits, surely? Better than just propping up a cadre of Thrasymachusian generals?

 

Benefits to who? Like I said previously, it is the poor and the working class people of any country that are always the last to see any benefit from the mineral wealth. Look at Nigeria, Iraq, Sierra Leone... the list goes on. If, as dune is advocating, foreign mining companies invest in Burma with its current government still in charge, the chances of the working classes actually seeing any benefit from that are virtually nil.

[benjii]

Benefits to who? Like I said previously, it is the poor and the working class people of any country that are always the last to see any benefit from the mineral wealth. Look at Nigeria, Iraq, Sierra Leone... the list goes on. If, as dune is advocating, foreign mining companies invest in Burma with its current government still in charge, the chances of the working classes actually seeing any benefit from that are virtually nil.

 

I think Dune is advocating a change of government to a Western capitalist model in order to facilitate open external investment; not what you suggest.

[dune]

I think Dune is advocating a change of government to a Western capitalist model in order to facilitate open external investment; not what you suggest.

 

Correct. It would benefit British mining companies listed on the LSE and it'd benefit the people of Burma because the wealth they ammassed would be spent on the country - not in off shore accounts of corrupt generals.

[badgerx16]

Correct. It would benefit British mining companies listed on the LSE and it'd benefit the people of Burma because the wealth they ammassed would be spent on the country - not in off shore accounts of corrupt generals.

That would be like the benefit to the Iraqi people of having companies like Haliburton slicing up their economy ?

[benjii]

That would be like the benefit to the Iraqi people of having companies like Haliburton slicing up their economy ?

 

I don't think Dune is advocating an invasion of Burma.

[dune]

I don't think Dune is advocating an invasion of Burma.

 

Only if it was financially beneficial for us or in the interests of British citizens. I think that should be the standard requirement for any engagement involving British forces.

[franny]

There is a lot of criticism of the solution suggested by Dune (personally I think some is warranted but not all) however I have not seen an alternative suggested by those of the left. Whilst it may not be perfect surely IF a capitalist democracy works that is better than a right wing/left wing junta that gives nothing to the people of that nation. The socialist/communiist Chinese are pillaging the country so the left dont seem to care about the people, the junta (I dont know if they are right or left) only want to line their pockets. If they had an accountable democratic government who were exploitng the assets of that country using foregin knowhow and money to fund the developoment surely that is good?

Badger/BTF/Bexy etc if Dune is wrong what is your suggestion as to the way forward in Burma?

[benjii]

I don't think Dune is advocating an invasion of Burma.

 

Only if it was financially beneficial for us or in the interests of British citizens. I think that should be the standard requirement for any engagement involving British forces.

 

Oh.

 

Maybe he is.

[Deppo]

That's the danger of defending Dune, Benji - you might think you understand what he means, but you have to remember he is operating on a level that most of us cannot comprehend.

[badgerx16]

There is a lot of criticism of the solution suggested by Dune (personally I think some is warranted but not all) however I have not seen an alternative suggested by those of the left. Whilst it may not be perfect surely IF a capitalist democracy works that is better than a right wing/left wing junta that gives nothing to the people of that nation. The socialist/communiist Chinese are pillaging the country so the left dont seem to care about the people, the junta (I dont know if they are right or left) only want to line their pockets. If they had an accountable democratic government who were exploitng the assets of that country using foregin knowhow and money to fund the developoment surely that is good?

Badger/BTF/Bexy etc if Dune is wrong what is your suggestion as to the way forward in Burma?

The problem with Dune's position is that what he is espousing is that we should encourage a change to a regime that permits us to exploit the resources of Burma, to the benefit of British mining company balance sheets. What they need is a Government that itself controls the exploitation of the nation's resources, and maintains control of the economic exchange with the west such that the primary beneficiaries are the Burmese, not the FTSE100.

We should also accept that the "democracy" some of the lesser nations come up with might not be entirely to our liking. The main concern is that it works for them, nor for us.

Edited 13 November, 2010 by badgerx16
Don't lower yourself to peurile jibes

[Sheaf Saint]

Badger/BTF/Bexy etc if Dune is wrong what is your suggestion as to the way forward in Burma?

 

I don't have all the answers. It is a difficult situation and difficult to know what would be the best way forward for the Burmese people. My initial gripe was that dune seemingly only cares about the potential profits for UKPLC if Burma were to somehow remove the military junta and install a democratically elected government; whereas I believe that, much more importantly, such an event would bring an end to the misery and suffering of the oppressed working classes of Burma.

 

I guess that highlights perfectly the difference between Dune's world view and my own. I care about humanity, and dune apparently only cares about profit.

[bridge too far]

There is a lot of criticism of the solution suggested by Dune (personally I think some is warranted but not all) however I have not seen an alternative suggested by those of the left. Whilst it may not be perfect surely IF a capitalist democracy works that is better than a right wing/left wing junta that gives nothing to the people of that nation. The socialist/communiist Chinese are pillaging the country so the left dont seem to care about the people, the junta (I dont know if they are right or left) only want to line their pockets. If they had an accountable democratic government who were exploitng the assets of that country using foregin knowhow and money to fund the developoment surely that is good?

Badger/BTF/Bexy etc if Dune is wrong what is your suggestion as to the way forward in Burma?

 

For the record - I've made no comments about the junta / democracy / exploitation etc. etc.

 

I simply commented that I thought it was her release was a noteworthy event.

[Badger]

We should have flown Gazza out there with a fishing rod and a bit of chicken. He'd have sorted it yearsa ago.

[solentstars]

I don't have all the answers. It is a difficult situation and difficult to know what would be the best way forward for the Burmese people. My initial gripe was that dune seemingly only cares about the potential profits for UKPLC if Burma were to somehow remove the military junta and install a democratically elected government; whereas I believe that, much more importantly, such an event would bring an end to the misery and suffering of the oppressed working classes of Burma.

 

I guess that highlights perfectly the difference between Dune's world view and my own. I care about humanity, and dune apparently only cares about profit.

 

are you surprised by his windup replys in dunes word he thinks hitler and thatcher are left wing communists:lol: just be like me and laugh at his predicable comments, because and the end of the day hes not important and its view.

[Gingeletiss]

I think this is as important an event as the release of Nelson Mandela.

 

No where near the same, Mandela was a convicted terrorist, who was a leader in a campaign to bomb and kill South African whites, and those that supported them. Whether you agreed with the separitist system in the country at that time, he and his brethrin, were still hell bent on changing things with bomb and bullet!

[dune]

That's the danger of defending Dune, Benji - you might think you understand what he means, but you have to remember he is operating on a level that most of us cannot comprehend.

 

It's straightforward what I believe. I believe that our armed forces should fight for British people. We should have been fighting to protect these people who fought for our country in the second world war, yet we abandoned them. It's a disgrace. In video 4 from about 5 mins there is an old man who you've got to admire who has stood up to Mugabe's thugs and told them they'll take his farm over his dead body but if they try they need to bring quite a few more spare coffins because apart from him going into a coffin he's going to take quite a few of them with him as well. Whatever your views these are proud and brave people and we have let them down. This is a great home made documentary btw.

 

 

 

 

 

[dune]

As a follow up the maker of the documenary Ben was beaten to within an inch of his life, as were his parents both almost 80 years old.

 

 

In June of this year Ben became a MBE.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/kent/hi/people_and_places/newsid_9131000/9131730.stm

 

Brave man, but sadly his efforts were in vain. He and his father were removed from the farm and the land is derilict. The night before Ben spoke to BBC Kent his friend, a farmer in his 70s, was shot while in bed.

 

There is no stronger case in the world for british armed intervention than here.

Edited 14 November, 2010 by dune

[badgerx16]

There is no stronger case in the world for british armed intervention than here.

Would there be any economic benefit for British mining companies is we did ?

[dune]

Would there be any economic benefit for British mining companies is we did ?

 

Yes, and there'd be benefit for British citizens who have been persecuted, and there'd be benefit for all Zimbabweans except the ZanuPF thugs. Whatever your views on the white farmers it is a fact that they fed the country and made it the bread basket of Africa. It's gone back to subsistence farming which would be OK if the population was 600,000, but it's 12 million and farms have to be run commercially to feed this number of people.

 

I defy you to say this would not be a morally correct war for british forces to participate in.

[badgerx16]

Yes, and there'd be benefit for British citizens who have been persecuted, and there'd be benefit for all Zimbabweans except the ZanuPF thugs. Whatever your views on the white farmers it is a fact that they fed the country and made it the bread basket of Africa. It's gone back to subsistence farming which would be OK if the population was 600,000, but it's 12 million and farms have to be run commercially to feed this number of people.

 

I defy you to say this would not be a morally correct war for british forces to participate in.

I would accept British involvement as part of a legitimate UN intervention. Going in alone, or on the coat tails of the yanks, would only make more of a mess. In my view it's really an OAU issue, they just need to develope some balls.

[dune]

I would accept British involvement as part of a legitimate UN intervention. Going in alone, or on the coat tails of the yanks, would only make more of a mess. In my view it's really an OAU issue, they just need to develope some balls.

 

Seriously, the OAU (AU) are closed shop Marxist organisation. I do however think the UN would be best placed to lead a mission.

[Deppo]

Is it really justifiable to go into Zimbabwe not once, but twice, to forcibly take land off the native population for the benefit of white people? Do you think that would help build relationships across the globe? Do you think that those who oppose the west, because of the perception that all those in Europe and America are only interested in themselves (whether it be the way the West monopolises and influences global institutions like the IMF, the World Bank, the UN, the WTO) would be happy with the invasion of a former colony so that land can be given to the "non-natives" (a term that has been used on here in the last couple of days). OR do you think it would stir up even more hatred and resentment, feed the organisations who rely on the growing number of people who see no alternative but to try and seek change through bizarre methods like suicide bombings and lead to a more polarised world?

 

Anyway, Zimbabwe is actually on the road to recovery, not through force or sanctions, but because of investment and assistance from China.

 

http://allafrica.com/stories/201010260023.html

 

http://www.thezimbabwean.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=34826:china-to-invest-usi-billion-in-zimbabwe&catid=28:business-news&Itemid=38