dune Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 Hold on,hold on, hold on... You're saying the fact that there was little trouble meant the police got it right? No... it says Saints fans got it right. We lost 4-1 at home and got a handful of fans nicked on trumped up charges... Now imagine the scenes at Fratton if they'd lost 4-1 at home? A few arrests? Not on your nelly.... And we'd have been held back for sure... I will never ever ever agree that allows Saints fans and Pompey fans to mingle after a game was the right move... never ever ever... It was foolish, naive and incompetent.... ... and just why is it being compared to an act of war? Irony? I quite agree there would have been more trouble at Pompey, and that Saints fans are more controlled, but that doesn't alter the fact that letting the Portsmouth fans out at the sme time allowed their normal fans to zip up their jackets and blend in with the dispersing crowd. Hampshire police made the right call in that they put the interests of the majority first. You might not like the fact that the Police's actions protected the public, but that is precisely what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daren W Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 I quite agree there would have been more trouble at Pompey, and that Saints fans are more controlled, but that doesn't alter the fact that letting the Portsmouth fans out at the sme time allowed their normal fans to zip up their jackets and blend in with the dispersing crowd. Hampshire police made the right call in that they put the interests of the majority first. You might not like the fact that the Police's actions protected the public, but that is precisely what happened. With chair being chucked and people getting caught in the middle of it, how on earth was anyone protected?? Seriously?? Can't see how the decision to let two sets of fans, who detest each other, out of the ground at the same time is a good one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 I quite agree there would have been more trouble at Pompey, and that Saints fans are more controlled, but that doesn't alter the fact that letting the Portsmouth fans out at the sme time allowed their normal fans to zip up their jackets and blend in with the dispersing crowd. Hampshire police made the right call in that they put the interests of the majority first. You might not like the fact that the Police's actions protected the public, but that is precisely what happened. Words i never expected to be uttered in same sentence Portsmouth fans and Normal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 With chair being chucked and people getting caught in the middle of it, how on earth was anyone protected?? Seriously?? Can't see how the decision to let two sets of fans, who detest each other, out of the ground at the same time is a good one? Obviously Lancashire police do not agree because Liverpool fans are locked in at Old Trafford for up to an hour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 Obviously Lancashire police do not agree because Liverpool fans are locked in at Old Trafford for up to an hour and GLamorgan Police, away fans locked in then escorted to the M4 at the recent Swans v Cardiff game. NO trouble at that one funnily enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 With chair being chucked and people getting caught in the middle of it, how on earth was anyone protected?? Seriously?? Can't see how the decision to let two sets of fans, who detest each other, out of the ground at the same time is a good one? You cant see it because you are not thinking rationally. If the Portsmouth fans had been let out 30 minutes after us it would have meant that there would have been families, groups and individual Portsmouth fans wandering back to their cars without the cover of Saints fans - they would have stuck out! And because they'd have stuck out they would have been easy targets for the yobs. The policy of Hants police allowed these people safe passage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 Darren if you feel so strongly about protecting fans can I suggest you write a future article calling for travel club only away support for the derby games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daren W Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 and GLamorgan Police, away fans locked in then escorted to the M4 at the recent Swans v Cardiff game. NO trouble at that one funnily enough. Am I alone in thinking letting two sets of fans, with a history of violence and resentment, out at the same time, in game where the home side has lost 4-1, is the most irresponsible thing you can think of?? Or am I mad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 Am I alone in thinking letting two sets of fans, with a history of violence and resentment, out at the same time, in game where the home side has lost 4-1, is the most irresponsible thing you can think of?? Or am I mad? your sane and practical, others are living in some sort of fantasy land none of whom can explain why southampton police do it differently from the rest of football world, or are all the innocent fans who are assaulted ,ecause they are locked in and have to leave without protection, apparently, being hushed up and incidents not reported in the media Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 your sane and practical, others are living in some sort of fantasy land none of whom can explain why southampton police do it differently from the rest of football world, or are all the innocent fans who are assaulted ,ecause they are locked in and have to leave without protection, apparently, being hushed up and incidents not reported in the media It has been suggested that, given keeping fans inside the ground has failed to prevent trouble outside on previous occasions, a new approach was taken with the erection of the big fenceline. Did it work? Not really. But was it any worse than the scenes that were previously seen both here and down at Fratton? Debatable. In this instance the police are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Personally I certainly think they should have kept the away fans in, but i can also understand the argument that they tried something different to methods that had clearly not been anywhere near 100% successful in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daren W Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 You cant see it because you are not thinking rationally. If the Portsmouth fans had been let out 30 minutes after us it would have meant that there would have been families, groups and individual Portsmouth fans wandering back to their cars without the cover of Saints fans - they would have stuck out! And because they'd have stuck out they would have been easy targets for the yobs. The policy of Hants police allowed these people safe passage. Darren if you feel so strongly about protecting fans can I suggest you write a future article calling for travel club only away support for the derby games. Again, it makes no sense... "Portsmouth fans wandering back to their cars without the cover of Saints fans - they would have stuck out!" so the police were using the fans as some sort of human shield? As for not think rationally, there's not nothing rational at letting fierce local rivals out of a ground at the same time... There's nothing rational about that at all... And yes, for Saints Pompey derbies, coach travel only..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjay77 Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 may all be true but what is your prectical solution to the problem at SMS' date=' WHERE we appear to be taking part in some sort of social experiment that no other football club in the uk is involved in[/quote'] Well not all football clubs have the facilities that can offer different solutions. The police in consultation with the club decided that the fence was a good idea. If it were my decision I wouldn't have gone with a fence as rivalry and result aside I think it just adds to an already heated situation. It's similar to chucking in a load of riot police before any signs of trouble. Our FA cup final in 2003 was lightly policed and fans mixed well. Had there been a big fence or line of riot police the atmosphere would have been much different IMO. So I think its good that a football club is trying something different but don't think ours should be the only one. I also think and changes should be decided with the fans having an input too. I also think better thought needs to go into possible options. If the rivalry is that strong I think I might be tempted to kick the away lot out first and get rid. Sooner they are out of the area the better in one way. Still don't think that is the right solution but it's better than the fence IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjay77 Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 Am I alone in thinking letting two sets of fans, with a history of violence and resentment, out at the same time, in game where the home side has lost 4-1, is the most irresponsible thing you can think of?? Or am I mad? I don't think anyone disagree's with this. Had the police not put the fence up and still let them out together your point would have more value. But they must have decided before the match to use the fence and to kick everyone out together no matter of the result and organised policing accordingly. It's not a small scale operation and they probably didn't have an "if" option so had to go with what they organised. Was it the wrong decision? Probably yes. Could it have gone better? Probably yes. Would it have been better to do it the old way? IMO probably yes but unless the police give some reasons why they wanted to do it this way or what they expected from it then we don't know if they thought they should have done it the old way or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daren W Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 I don't think anyone disagree's with this. Had the police not put the fence up and still let them out together your point would have more value. But they must have decided before the match to use the fence and to kick everyone out together no matter of the result and organised policing accordingly. It's not a small scale operation and they probably didn't have an "if" option so had to go with what they organised. Was it the wrong decision? Probably yes. Could it have gone better? Probably yes. Would it have been better to do it the old way? IMO probably yes but unless the police give some reasons why they wanted to do it this way or what they expected from it then we don't know if they thought they should have done it the old way or not. Which is fine.... However when their own "experiment" goes wrong it's wrong to place the blame fully at the feet of the fence rattlers... The police are just as culpable for not policing the situation adequately and so far they've escaped any punishment completely... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadhall Saint Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 WTF??? Get in!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadhall Saint Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 LOL wrong thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 Am I alone in thinking letting two sets of fans, with a history of violence and resentment, out at the same time, in game where the home side has lost 4-1, is the most irresponsible thing you can think of?? Or am I mad? no you are not alone, If the away fans are still inside the ground, not spilling out in the streets giving it large, then there is nothing to attack. End of. Dunes idealistic view that everyone comes out together and anyone that feels slightly intimated zips up their jacket and goes on their merry way is naive to say the least. As you will see from my posts above, i am in your camp Darren and in the camp of common sense and totally agree with your column in the pink last week, letting fans with a history of ill felling and who hate each other confront each other, with or without a flimsey fence inbetween minutes after a 1-4 home defeat is insanitiy. Yet it seems that their tactics have not even been questioned by the clueless majority. Even the echo when printing a report about the 5 lads aquitted headlined it with a "police praised" headline. Lets face it "police f*cked up" is not something they would be happy to publicise, given the fact that the echo had salivated over every word they had printed in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 Dunes idealistic view that everyone comes out together and anyone that feels slightly intimated zips up their jacket and goes on their merry way is naive to say the least. It worked. Anyway we're going round in circles now and i'm off to watch Merlin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 (edited) It worked. Anyway we're going round in circles now and i'm off to watch Merlin. it didn't. Would the 70 year old skate that got a rock on his cannsiter agree that it was right to let him leave at the same time? Or would he have prefered to have been kept in the ground for 30 minutes then let out into empty streets? Edited 20 November, 2010 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjay77 Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 Which is fine.... However when their own "experiment" goes wrong it's wrong to place the blame fully at the feet of the fence rattlers... The police are just as culpable for not policing the situation adequately and so far they've escaped any punishment completely... I think that is a problem with policing in general but is highlighted with this case. They made their decisions and acted the way they did. I can understand the law making examples of football related violence as previously discussed but as the verdicts have proved it seems like the police/CPS have gone down the wrong track wasting time, money and reputations and there is no where for the public to turn for answers. If the police treat football fans with respect and deal with situations reasonably they generally get a fair response from the fans. Treat them like caged animals and they start to behave like caged animals. Throw the book at fans without sufficient evidence to back up their claims and they build resentment from the fans. Fans should be able to go to a footy match seeing police thinking it's good they are there to look out for trouble and keep the piece. Instead they go to the footy and think the police are ready to arrest them for looking the wrong direction. If they told the public before the match that the fence will be used and fans will be let out together for what ever reason, and anyone caught trying to breach the barrier will be taken away for a night in the cell's and a £80 fine then the fans may have acted differently or been more accepting had they been fined or what ever. Instead the police have dented the respect by looking like they have tried to set people up for a fall and it's back fired. Even still I think it's fair enough to try something different but I think they could have done allot better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 it didn't. Would the 70 year old skate that got a rock on his cannsiter agree that it was right to let him leave at the same time? Or would he have prefered to have been kept in the ground for 30 minutes then let out into empty streets? And if the Pompey fans had been let out 20 minutes later I guarentee that innocent fans walking back to their cars would've been set upon and we'd have seen more serious injuries inflicted and more incidents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsland Nick Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 it didn't. Would the 70 year old skate that got a rock on his cannsiter agree that it was right to let him leave at the same time? Or would he have prefered to have been kept in the ground for 30 minutes then let out into empty streets? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Do you seriously believe that keeping the Portsmouth fans in the ground for 30 minutes would have made a difference? The Saints "fans" would either have waited for them to come out, or, if they couldn't wait any longer, would have attacked the police instead or trashed the area like the Skates did in the first Fratton Park game a few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Do you seriously believe that keeping the Portsmouth fans in the ground for 30 minutes would have made a difference? The Saints "fans" would either have waited for them to come out, or, if they couldn't wait any longer, would have attacked the police instead or trashed the area like the Skates did in the first Fratton Park game a few years ago. Correct. Or they'd have moved away from the immediate vicinity and lurked waiting for easy targets. Everyone knows this deep down so I fail to see why we can't have some honesty on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknrollman no2 Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 And if the Pompey fans had been let out 20 minutes later I guarentee that innocent fans walking back to their cars would've been set upon and we'd have seen more serious injuries inflicted and more incidents. But when we knocked them out of the FA Cup a few years ago,the Skates were kept in for a while,then let out after most Saints fans had gone home.There was no trouble then.So would you agree Dune that it does indeed work keeping fans back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 But when we knocked them out of the FA Cup a few years ago,the Skates were kept in for a while,then let out after most Saints fans had gone home.There was no trouble then.So would you agree Dune that it does indeed work keeping fans back? My memory of events that day isn't good so i can't comment on that. This isn't a cop out btw, I genuinely don't remember much about that game as my dad was in the cancer ward dieing at the time and therefore I went to the game and left straight away to get to the hospital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsland Nick Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 But when we knocked them out of the FA Cup a few years ago,the Skates were kept in for a while,then let out after most Saints fans had gone home.There was no trouble then.So would you agree Dune that it does indeed work keeping fans back? But we won that match, so why should there have been any (major) trouble from Saints fans? Keeping the Skates in made sense because they were the ones more likely to cause trouble. The frustration of losing 4-1 (having played well) is supposed to be the main reason why so many Saints fans wanted a fight. (As I only have 3 posts a day - I do know that Portsmouth won the match at Fratton Park, but that was our first visit for years, and they had been in a lower division than us for so long that the rivalry was much more one-sided back then. When we lost 4-1, that was such a poor performance (probably the worst I have ever seen) that Saints fans were too numb to do anything) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknrollman no2 Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 My memory of events that day isn't good so i can't comment on that. This isn't a cop out btw, I genuinely don't remember much about that game as my dad was in the cancer ward dieing at the time and therefore I went to the game and left straight away to get to the hospital. Fair enough. Sorry about that mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 20 November, 2010 Share Posted 20 November, 2010 Fair enough. Sorry about that mate. No need to say sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 November, 2010 Share Posted 21 November, 2010 so why is that at every game since Pompeys promotion and the first games against them in 2003 there was hardly any trouble at SMS, certainly nothing like the scenes outside SMS at the last one, and the Pompey fans have been kept in. Yet the one game they let them out at the same time there is? This cant just be coincidence. At none of these other games were there tales of lone Portsmouth fans being picked off as they went to their cars, large groups of saints fans lurking in alley ways looking for Pompey fans too attack or Saints fans rioting with the police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alehouseboys Posted 21 November, 2010 Share Posted 21 November, 2010 so why is that at every game since Pompeys promotion and the first games against them in 2003 there was hardly any trouble at SMS, certainly nothing like the scenes outside SMS at the last one, and the Pompey fans have been kept in. Yet the one game they let them out at the same time there is? This cant just be coincidence. At none of these other games were there tales of lone Portsmouth fans being picked off as they went to their cars, large groups of saints fans lurking in alley ways looking for Pompey fans too attack or Saints fans rioting with the police. Exactly. The Police actions that day, whether it was intentional or not (and I know what I think), set up an immediate confrontation that afternoon when it was obvious emotions were still running at high octane levels. And Dune, when they kept us in for an hour at fartton and then let us make our way to the trains, coaches and cars I can't remember hearing about too many suffering serious injuries...well none at all actually. This also goes for previous games at St Mary's when they did keep away fans back...if it aint broke... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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