First 10 games - a comparison

[Minty]

With thanks and apologies to someone who posted this on SaintsList, I thought it was worth sharing here too. I can't see that anyone else has posted it, but apologies if I've missed it.

 

After our first 10 league games under JP, Saints have earnt 11 points. Here is the record of our other recent managers over their first 10 league games:

 

Close-season appointments:

 

Ian Branfoot - 8 points

Dave Jones - 7 points

Chris Nicholl - 8 points

Dave Merrington - 6 points

Graeme Souness - 10 points

 

Mid-season appointments:

 

Alan Ball - 12 points

George Burley - 5 points

Glenn Hoddle - 14 points

Harry Redknapp - 7 points

Nigel Pearson - 12 points

Gordon Strachan - 13 points

 

Depending on your outlook and opinion, I have no doubt that these stats will be twisted every which way and to suit a variety of arguments, and I fully accept that all of the above have had widely differing circumstances to deal with on their appointment, but as far I'm concerned, considering the age and experience of the squad and the financial situation we're in, JP and the current team are doing ok.

 

I'd like them to be doing much better, and there are lots of things we need to improve on, obviously, but we could be doing a hell of a lot worse too and so I'm comfortable with the status quo and fully support JP and the squad in their efforts.

[southamptonfclegend]

With thanks and apologies to someone who posted this on SaintsList, I thought it was worth sharing here too. I can't see that anyone else has posted it, but apologies if I've missed it.

 

After our first 10 league games under JP, Saints have earnt 11 points. Here is the record of our other recent managers over their first 10 league games:

 

Close-season appointments:

 

Ian Branfoot - 8 points

Dave Jones - 7 points

Chris Nicholl - 8 points

Dave Merrington - 6 points

Graeme Souness - 10 points

 

Mid-season appointments:

 

Alan Ball - 12 points

George Burley - 5 points

Glenn Hoddle - 14 points

Harry Redknapp - 7 points

Nigel Pearson - 12 points

Gordon Strachan - 13 points

 

Depending on your outlook and opinion, I have no doubt that these stats will be twisted every which way and to suit a variety of arguments, and I fully accept that all of the above have had widely differing circumstances to deal with on their appointment, but as far I'm concerned, considering the age and experience of the squad and the financial situation we're in, JP and the current team are doing ok.

 

I'd like them to be doing much better, and there are lots of things we need to improve on, obviously, but we could be doing a hell of a lot worse too and so I'm comfortable with the status quo and fully support JP and the squad in their efforts.

all the ones before the closed season are playing against a lot harder teams tbf

[exit2]

how many goals did we concede?

[trousers]

With thanks and apologies to someone who posted this on SaintsList, I thought it was worth sharing here too. I can't see that anyone else has posted it, but apologies if I've missed it.

 

After our first 10 league games under JP, Saints have earnt 11 points. Here is the record of our other recent managers over their first 10 league games:

 

Close-season appointments:

 

Ian Branfoot - 8 points

Dave Jones - 7 points

Chris Nicholl - 8 points

Dave Merrington - 6 points

Graeme Souness - 10 points

 

Mid-season appointments:

 

Alan Ball - 12 points

George Burley - 5 points

Glenn Hoddle - 14 points

Harry Redknapp - 7 points

Nigel Pearson - 12 points

Gordon Strachan - 13 points

 

Depending on your outlook and opinion, I have no doubt that these stats will be twisted every which way and to suit a variety of arguments, and I fully accept that all of the above have had widely differing circumstances to deal with on their appointment, but as far I'm concerned, considering the age and experience of the squad and the financial situation we're in, JP and the current team are doing ok.

 

I'd like them to be doing much better, and there are lots of things we need to improve on, obviously, but we could be doing a hell of a lot worse too and so I'm comfortable with the status quo and fully support JP and the squad in their efforts.

 

Interesting. Cheers for posting these stats.

 

So...no Saints manager in recent times has ever got over half the points available to them in their first 10 games. Puts out 'big club' aspirations over the years into glaring perspective....

[FloridaMarlin]

Interesting. Cheers for posting these stats.

 

So...no Saints manager in recent times has ever got over half the points available to them in their first 10 games. Puts out 'big club' aspirations over the years into glaring perspective....

 

Also hints at a glaring inability to hit the ground running at the start of a season on a consistent basis.

 

Surely it doesn't come as a surprise to anyone involved in football when the season starts.

 

But it appears that for whatever reason, whether it's managerial upheaval, player changes, our close season is consistently a complete and utter shambles, which means that we never begin at full throttle, and by time the 10th game comes round when the league table really first starts to take a realistic shape, we are playing catch-up.

 

Once, just once, I'd like us to have the sort of close-season preparation that sees us off to a flying start.

 

Not too much to ask, is it?

[gjphilsaint]

interesting to know who we played for each of those managers.

JP got points from Derby, Doncaster, Norwich, Barnsley and Ipswich. Hardly Premiership team calibre.

 

At the same time JP lost to:

 

Cardiff, Birmingham, Blackpool, QPR, & Coventry

[mack rill]

It also shows that Burley was and still is utter shyt, And should never of been trusted with the money for a drink, Never mind 7mill

[gjphilsaint]

hmm may do some research on this for the other managers

[.comsaint]

On this day (October 6th) last season - we played West Brom at home. At the time - we were 2 points above the relegation zone. October 6th this year - we're 3 points above the drop zone.

 

I call that progress!!!

[mack rill]

On this day (October 6th) last season - we played West Brom at home. At the time - we were 2 points above the relegation zone. October 6th this year - we're 3 points above the drop zone.

 

I call that progress!!!

 

Good point!

[puff the magic dragon]

On this day (October 6th) last season - we played West Brom at home. At the time - we were 2 points above the relegation zone. October 6th this year - we're 3 points above the drop zone.

 

I call that progress!!!

 

I call that same sh1t different season!!!

[gjphilsaint]

Nicholl 1985

 

Newcastle (h) 1-1

Arsenal (a) 2-3

Nottm Forest (a) 1-2

Aston Villa (h) 0-0

Ipswich (a) 1-1

West ham (h) 1-1

Man City (h) 3-0

Chelsea (a) 0-2

Coventry (h) 1-1

Man Utd (a) 0-1

 

8pts from 10 games

 

 

20 Southampton 10 1 4 0 6 3 0 1 4 4 9 1 5 4 10 12 8 -2

Edited 6 October, 2008 by gjphilsaint
inaccurate needs revising

[skintsaint]

interesting to know who we played for each of those managers.

JP got points from Derby, Doncaster, Norwich, Barnsley and Ipswich. Hardly Premiership team calibre.

 

At the same time JP lost to:

 

Cardiff, Birmingham, Blackpool, QPR, & Coventry

 

Stupid Arguement, our team isnt exactly full of Premiership players anymore....

[OttawaSaint]

A few managers missing there. What about Gray, Wiggers and Sturrock. I believe that Sturrock started pretty well and the other two took an age to get a 1st win...

[.comsaint]

I call that same sh1t different season!!!

 

My glass is half full - not half empty!

[DT]

Chalk is really very similar to cheese. Another one crawls out to repeat the bleats as Saints slide inexorably towards relegation. I remember you consistently saying 'don't worry, it'll be okay, we're playing okay' in our last relegation year. On this sort of bald analysis I suppose you'll say that Hull are going to be in the Champions League? Jeez. By the way, you suggesting others will twist these facts implies that your presenting them in this way, without any details of personnel or, crucially, the leagues they were in, is neutral. It is not.

[Saint Luke]

People may be saying that we are not playing premiership temas - but what we must remember is that we are far from a premiership team ourselves.

 

As always with Saints, nothing is simple, nothing is taken for granted except that we will be woefully inconsistent and that the team will put the supporters through the wringer.

[northam soul]

Well Scooby what do you think as you were quick to put the boot in last week comparing Portvlieet to Pearson after 8 or 9 games, the revenge of the flatcaps is sweet.

[Mowgli]

Not sure it really tells me that much. Of course that excludes the cup ties which were won 2 lost 1. Agreed this is asgainst CCC teams not premiership but that is cancelled out by the fact that JP has pretty much had to work with zero budget. I wonder how the other managers would have fared with the youth team of the time....

[Saint Billy]

Chalk is really very similar to cheese. Another one crawls out to repeat the bleats as Saints slide inexorably towards relegation. I remember you consistently saying 'don't worry, it'll be okay, we're playing okay' in our last relegation year. On this sort of bald analysis I suppose you'll say that Hull are going to be in the Champions League? Jeez. By the way, you suggesting others will twist these facts implies that your presenting them in this way, without any details of personnel or, crucially, the leagues they were in, is neutral. It is not.

 

Whoooosh!

[Minty]

Chalk is really very similar to cheese. Another one crawls out to repeat the bleats as Saints slide inexorably towards relegation. I remember you consistently saying 'don't worry, it'll be okay, we're playing okay' in our last relegation year. On this sort of bald analysis I suppose you'll say that Hull are going to be in the Champions League? Jeez. By the way, you suggesting others will twist these facts implies that your presenting them in this way, without any details of personnel or, crucially, the leagues they were in, is neutral. It is not.

 

I'm merely presenting some stats that someone else prepared that I thought might be of interest. I'm not suggesting anything or trying to draw conclusion, and finished by simply giving my opinion on our current position. The points about standard of opposition and squad are entirely valid.

 

If you can't understand that then I suggest you just ignore it.

 

(And yes, I was wrong about our relegation season. I'll readily admit it when I'm wrong. What's that got to do with this? I can still have an opinion.)

[saint1977]

I'm merely presenting some stats that someone else prepared that I thought might be of interest. I'm not suggesting anything or trying to draw conclusion, and finished by simply giving my opinion on our current position. The points about standard of opposition and squad are entirely valid.

 

If you can't understand that then I suggest you just ignore it.

 

(And yes, I was wrong about our relegation season. I'll readily admit it when I'm wrong. What's that got to do with this? I can still have an opinion.)

 

Good to see you post Minty. It's interesting that the managers that have got the squad fittest have got the best starts (WGS and Hoddle), Bally had an average side but MLT in his wonderful pomp. JP's not done too badly considering he's got the toughest gig out of all of those names but we should be playing more appropriate defenders for the CCC and James at right-back is a joke. James will be a good midfielder though and that's a position JP needs to sort. Mills is doing well for one so young though. Not sure why we signed Pekhart AND Robertson when one of the loans should have been a full-back.

[solentstars]

With thanks and apologies to someone who posted this on SaintsList, I thought it was worth sharing here too. I can't see that anyone else has posted it, but apologies if I've missed it.

 

After our first 10 league games under JP, Saints have earnt 11 points. Here is the record of our other recent managers over their first 10 league games:

 

Close-season appointments:

 

Ian Branfoot - 8 points

Dave Jones - 7 points

Chris Nicholl - 8 points

Dave Merrington - 6 points

Graeme Souness - 10 points

 

Mid-season appointments:

 

Alan Ball - 12 points

George Burley - 5 points

Glenn Hoddle - 14 points

Harry Redknapp - 7 points

Nigel Pearson - 12 points

Gordon Strachan - 13 points

 

Depending on your outlook and opinion, I have no doubt that these stats will be twisted every which way and to suit a variety of arguments, and I fully accept that all of the above have had widely differing circumstances to deal with on their appointment, but as far I'm concerned, considering the age and experience of the squad and the financial situation we're in, JP and the current team are doing ok.

 

I'd like them to be doing much better, and there are lots of things we need to improve on, obviously, but we could be doing a hell of a lot worse too and so I'm comfortable with the status quo and fully support JP and the squad in their efforts.

good post but those who complain about jan, the most will take no notice.

[Foxy]

Not sure it really tells me that much. Of course that excludes the cup ties which were won 2 lost 1. Agreed this is asgainst CCC teams not premiership but that is cancelled out by the fact that JP has pretty much had to work with zero budget. I wonder how the other managers would have fared with the youth team of the time....

 

That's the great unknowable. Based on nothing more than my own view of the way they managed and their ability to improve individual players and do the old sum of the parts bit I would say that from the motley assortment listed I'd expect Strachen and Hoddle to do OK with the hand Jan's been dealt as they were coaches of players whereas Souness, Redknapp and Burley were assemblers of teams and therefore likely to struggle without funds available.

 

Ball and perhaps Nicholl I place close to the WGS side of the equation with Jones and Pearson perhaps closer to the assembler side.

 

Branfoot and Merrington I think were just poor.

 

In terms of where Jan comes in all this only time will tell (and even then the fianances will mean we all have to make a big allowance one way or another). But given the money side he has no choice but to show us his coaching skills.

[DT]

I'm merely presenting some stats that someone else prepared that I thought might be of interest. I'm not suggesting anything or trying to draw conclusion, and finished by simply giving my opinion on our current position. The points about standard of opposition and squad are entirely valid.

 

If you can't understand that then I suggest you just ignore it.

 

(And yes, I was wrong about our relegation season. I'll readily admit it when I'm wrong. What's that got to do with this? I can still have an opinion.)

Sorry, maybe I was a bit strong in my post. However, I do think that if you post stats like these you are effectively saying 'Look, Jan is doing okay! - Just look at our other managers and the points they accrued'. This to me is to paper over some pretty big cracks. In fact, I'm not sure we have a wall at all anymore. We certainly don't in defence. My concern is that if we cling to messages like the one behind the presentation of these stats then we will be simply hastening our descent into League Oneness...Saying like it is might - just might get those in power to do something. Like loan in a defender or two to replace the 'half-full backs' we have.

Edited 7 October, 2008 by DT

[puff the magic dragon]

My glass is half full - not half empty!

 

I live in the real world - not sweetie land!

[saintbob40]

Spare a thought for what funds JP has at his disposal to improve the squad. He is working with a squad made up of predominantly untried youngsters and that is not his fault.That is a pretty harsh envivonment to work in and woud challenge any of the managers on that list who had it a lot easier.

 

I, for one, am supportive of his efforts.

[Ekelund24]

Sturrock had 14 pts in first 10

[JohnnyFartPants]

all the ones before the closed season are playing against a lot harder teams tbf

 

Yes, and with a better calibre of players, to remain fair.

[Wes Tender]

Statistically Burley was better due to his record when we finished 6th, but that's the problem with statistics isn't it, the vital information they don't show. Burley had time, money and a better squad to start with, yet he never got near finding a team that looked like going up. He failed miserably to get the best out of his resources. That's poor management.

 

 

So you were lost in some parallel universe when Burley got us to the play-offs, were you? And take your choice from the following list of things that would have taken us to Wembley to contest a promotion spot to the Premiership.

 

Leon Best scores a bizarre own goal that he couldn't replicate in a 1000 attempts

 

Leon Best misses a penalty.

 

Pele gives away a stupid free kick on the edge of the box, from which Derby score.

 

The team are crap at penalties when all they had to do was score more than Derby.

 

Even if there was an away goal advantage instead of the penalty shoot out we would have been in the finals.

 

But as you say, that was nowhere near a team that looked like getting us up.

[John D]

Sorry, maybe I was a bit strong in my post. However, I do think that if you post stats like these you are effectively saying 'Look, Jan is doing okay! - Just look at our other managers and the points they accrued'. This to me is to paper over some pretty big cracks. In fact, I'm not sure we have a wall at all anymore. We certainly don't in defence. My concern is that if we cling to messages like the one behind the presentation of these stats then we will be simply hastening our descent into League Oneness...Saying like it is might - just might get those in power to do something. Like loan in a defender or two to replace the 'half-full backs' we have.

 

Can JP not have noticed that our defence is the area he must address. Most of us have, and we can't muster any international caps, top flight appearances or managerial experience (except Champ Manager) between us. So why does he still sign random midfielders/forwards?

 

The optimist in me thinks it is so obvious that things must be happening behind the scenes and we pull a Christain Dailly / Chris Lucketti / style loan signing out of the hat.

[VectisSaint]

So you were lost in some parallel universe when Burley got us to the play-offs, were you? And take your choice from the following list of things that would have taken us to Wembley to contest a promotion spot to the Premiership.

 

Leon Best scores a bizarre own goal that he couldn't replicate in a 1000 attempts

 

Leon Best misses a penalty.

 

Pele gives away a stupid free kick on the edge of the box, from which Derby score.

 

The team are crap at penalties when all they had to do was score more than Derby.

 

Even if there was an away goal advantage instead of the penalty shoot out we would have been in the finals.

 

But as you say, that was nowhere near a team that looked like getting us up.

People still don't get it about Burley do they

(1) Burley only ever looked good when he had Snodin as assistant

(2) Beating Derby would not have gained us promotion, it would only have taken us to the play-off final (which would have been nice and better than losing to Derby)

[JohnnyFartPants]

People still don't get it about Burley do they

(1) Burley only ever looked good when he had Snodin as assistant

(2) Beating Derby would not have gained us promotion, it would only have taken us to the play-off final (which would have been nice and better than losing to Derby)

 

Oh right. Only the play off final then. So we were a bit of bad luck away from just a silly pointless play off final. Cheers for clearing up the unimportance and non-achievement that was made.

[Fan The Flames]

Yes interesting stats, they show that JP is doing OK with what he has got.

But it doesn't mean he should be immune from any critical appraisal of his performance or from fans asking the big question ‘is this the best squad we could have assembled with our resources’.

[thefuriousb]

all the ones before the closed season are playing against a lot harder teams tbf

 

With older, more experienced, (arguably) better class of player....

 

tbf

[saintstr1]

I Quite like JP and even before these Stats were posted thought he was making the best of a bad job.We are where we are due to severe financial constrictions, as each game passes our young squad learn something new and although we are not going to be world beaters I think we will have enough to survive this season, which many will settle for. Unless a miracle take over happens and the club is financially viable again I am pretty much sure we are stuck with what we have got. Whilst JP might not be the greatest manager in the league he is IMO Honest , Hard Working,and Passionate about the job which is more than can be said about some recent managers( Burley & Redcrap spring to mind), I also get the impression JP could do a lot more without Lowe lording over him.

[ItchenRob]

I Quite like JP and even before these Stats were posted thought he was making the best of a bad job.We are where we are due to severe financial constrictions, as each game passes our young squad learn something new and although we are not going to be world beaters I think we will have enough to survive this season, which many will settle for. Unless a miracle take over happens and the club is financially viable again I am pretty much sure we are stuck with what we have got. Whilst JP might not be the greatest manager in the league he is IMO Honest , Hard Working,and Passionate about the job which is more than can be said about some recent managers( Burley & Redcrap spring to mind), I also get the impression JP could do a lot more without Lowe lording over him.

 

Please do not post your balanced, reasonable nonsense on this forum

[Danny R]

It also shows that Burley was and still is utter shyt, And should never of been trusted with the money for a drink, Never mind 7mill

 

How? Do you remember Burley's first games in charge. He had to look our massive Redknapp built squad and see who needed to stay or go.

[saintstr1]

Please do not post your balanced, reasonable nonsense on this forum

 

Sorry

[ART]

I think taking a consideration of reviewing the first 10 games at the beginning of a season would paint a very different picture. We have notoriously bad starts to each season and some who've started well have seen the season peter out.

 

I have to laugh at the deliberate exclusion of Paul Sturrock who turns out to have had the highest first 10 games total. It might be worth noting Plymouth were below us a few games ago and are now in the top 6. Jan will do okay this season and anyone who thinks otherwise is biased or in for a big shock. He's once again shown he's prepared to sacrifice one or two games(especially televised ones) to get things how he wants them. We have the players, we have the right managers and we will get the right results over the whole season.

[Chez]

as the original post said each manager has had different situations to cope with when taking over. I'd of thought JP's starting position was as bad as any. No money to buy players, absolutely no money to pay free transfers, the need to sell absolutely anything of value, a squad only just good enough of surviving last year , limited support and backing from the crowd, the best young players already sold, small crowds...

 

Tough conditions, but he could still do more with what he has. The handling of Skacel and Stern could have been a lot lot better (admittedly I don't know what has happened behind the scenes) and a 4-4-2 away from home seems obvious to me. Having no right back is a crime IMO.

[Chez]

He's once again shown he's prepared to sacrifice one or two games(especially televised ones) to get things how he wants them.

 

What? He's prepared to lose games for what gain? I don't understand what you are getting at. Please explain.

[Wes Tender]

Jan will do okay this season and anyone who thinks otherwise is biased or in for a big shock. He's once again shown he's prepared to sacrifice one or two games(especially televised ones) to get things how he wants them. We have the players, we have the right managers and we will get the right results over the whole season.

 

In the same way that anybody who thinks that he will do well is biased too? And instead of somebody being in for a shock if he does well, couldn't that equally have read in for a pleasant surprise?

 

And what the heck do you mean about him being prepared to sacrifice one or two games? Do you mean that he is still experimenting in an attempt to find out his best team? The interesting statistical comparison for me would be one where we have a look at how many personnel changes each manager made to the squad, because as things stand, JP seems to be tinkering with the team as much as Burley used to.

[St Marco]

The one critical flaw in this argument. Other then Pearson and Burley the others were in the Premiership. Could you see Jan getting 11 points in that league with this squad? If Rotheram,QPR and Coventry can turn us over how would we do against say the european champions? It would be a massacre.

[Long Shot]

Thanks for posting that Minty.

 

Although I am deply concerned that Lowe is too heavily involved in the actual football side (witness today's photo in the Echo of him and JP consulting prior to Saturday's game) I still think some of the football played this season is definately better than it ever was under Burley and most of those other names too. However there is a worrying naivity to JP's actions at times and our inability to take chances and weak defence could be costly as is Lowe's determination to keep on playing McGoldrick.

[slickmick]

The one critical flaw in this argument. Other then Pearson and Burley the others were in the Premiership. Could you see Jan getting 11 points in that league with this squad? If Rotheram,QPR and Coventry can turn us over how would we do against say the european champions? It would be a massacre.

 

 

But the others didn't have this squad, they had premiership quality players.

[stevegrant]

The one critical flaw in this argument. Other then Pearson and Burley the others were in the Premiership. Could you see Jan getting 11 points in that league with this squad? If Rotheram,QPR and Coventry can turn us over how would we do against say the european champions? It would be a massacre.

But if we were in the Premier League we wouldn't be financially crippled and be forced into playing the youngsters (a number of whom are good enough already for the Championship, a number of whom aren't, IMO), so no argument on those lines is ever going to produce any sort of decent comparison because the environments are almost the polar opposite.

[slickmick]

In the same way that anybody who thinks that he will do well is biased too? And instead of somebody being in for a shock if he does well, couldn't that equally have read in for a pleasant surprise?

 

And what the heck do you mean about him being prepared to sacrifice one or two games? Do you mean that he is still experimenting in an attempt to find out his best team? The interesting statistical comparison for me would be one where we have a look at how many personnel changes each manager made to the squad, because as things stand, JP seems to be tinkering with the team as much as Burley used to.

 

 

And why do you think that is ??

 

I wont go through our injury list, but just have a look at how thin we are as a squad.

We have no recognised full backs, so he has to try different options. We have very few centre halves and those we have are injured. We are struggling to find a right winger within our ranks.

So yes, he still has to tinker with what he has got.

Difference with Burley, he had players for those positions but decided to play them anywhere but.

[Wes Tender]

And why do you think that is ??

 

I wont go through our injury list, but just have a look at how thin we are as a squad.

We have no recognised full backs, so he has to try different options. We have very few centre halves and those we have are injured. We are struggling to find a right winger within our ranks.

So yes, he still has to tinker with what he has got.

Difference with Burley, he had players for those positions but decided to play them anywhere but.

 

I agree, but the end result is the same, isn't it? We should persevere with Mills at left back, as that is his position and hope that he learns fast. But we went too long with Surman playing there and thankfully it has hopefully sunk in that he is better in midfield. Hopefully it has also finally sunk in that James is not a right back and that Cork is better there. Dyer was supposedly a right winger, but he is out on loan, as are a couple of our decent strikers. I know that finances dictate that we have to get some players off the wage bill, but I am yet to be convinced that Scacel can not make a useful contribution. Apart from the changes forced on JP through injuries, it has not yet been established IMO that the formation is even right. Seemingly there ought to be one formation for playing at home and another for away games. We are so one dimensional that even when injuries should dictate formation changes, they often result in switching players out of their best positions instead, which is very George Burley.

[um pahars]

Some interesting stats and I also wonder why Gray, Wigley and Sturrock were omitted.

 

Was it perhaps that because both Wigley and Gray only managed 7 points, whereas Sturrock managed 12 (not 14) and it would have perhaps highlighted those appointments and sackings as being unsound??????

 

You then have to question the validity of such comparisons, because sadly there is no control test here, with each manager playing different teams with different resources.

Therefore it is a fairly meaningless and arbitrary comparison.

Furthermore, I'm not sure it is fair to include the first ten matches of those managers (or Head Coaches) who came in part way through a season. Although they have a chance to motivate the team and rejig the squad, to a certain degree their hands are tied and their choices somewhat limited.

Additionally, what this also doesn't show is the context behind these points.

 

In that, I don't just mean the manner in which we have played (i.e. I have only seen one good performance out of five so far this season), but instead how everyone else is doing and what it means in the league you're in.

 

Most of those managers were in the top flight where the points ratio per game for teams is generally lower, particularly in the relegation battle.

 

For example when we got relegated from the top flight you only needed something like 34 points from 38 games to survive (0.9 points per game), whereas last season it was something like 53 points, from 46 games (1.2 points per game).

 

Therefore just looking at those managers who had the important pre season to mould their teams, then only Souness would come up above that basic level.

 

 

Jan himself would fall below it along with Jones, Merrington, Branfoot & Nicholl.

 

I had time for Nicholl, so you could argue he turned the corner after 10 games, but as for the other three (Jones, Merrington & Branfoot), I think it is safe to say that those three did not distinguish themselves after their initial start.

 

Will Jan go the way of Nicholl, or the way of the other three who continued to stumble along?