St. Marys Expansion

[hypochondriac]

St Mary is so bland, Brighton on the other hand are building a far nicer stadium.

 

True Jack but if we knock SMS down and build a nice stadium on the outskirts I still don't think that is better than the current situation.

[BLINK]

personally I think that football stadiums should be iconic structures for a city. I used Brighton's stadium as an example because I feel that the aesthetics and design of the whole stadium are far better than St Mary's. I spoke to a director of KSS architects I was told Brighton's stadium can be extended to a 30,000 capacity. Also the designs KSS have for Spurs new stadium look brilliant.

[s0108787]

People always seem to forget that Operating costs in the Prem are huge! Wages, Fees, Bonuses and Transfers all add up. In reality the reveneue that you talk about will most likely be swallowed by just being in the Prem. Massive debt like that would be a massive burdern and worry if we were to drop back down to the championship.

[hypochondriac]

personally I think that football stadiums should be iconic structures for a city. I used Brighton's stadium as an example because I feel that the aesthetics and design of the whole stadium are far better than St Mary's. I spoke to a director of KSS architects I was told Brighton's stadium can be extended to a 30,000 capacity. Also the designs KSS have for Spurs new stadium look brilliant.

 

Pfft. Just cos you live in Brighton. Bummer.

[Joensuu]

Building a whole new stadium would be financial suicide, and no bank is going to lend us the money under the present economic climate, nor with our record of repaying banks the mortgage on new stadiums. Unless all the finance came from the ML family it will never happen.

And lets face it, NC can't get the training ground finished on time without a some balls up that has suspended work, how is he going to manage with a 40k new stadium.

 

Personally I'm more than happy at SMS, not least because it's in town, with all the various transport and pre/post match entertainment options available.

 

I'm happy as SMS too. But why do you assume we would be indebted by building a new stadium. Might not the Leibherr's foot the bill and write it off against the increased value of their asset? Afterall, it's not like they are in favour of loans are they?

 

People always seem to forget that Operating costs in the Prem are huge! Wages, Fees, Bonuses and Transfers all add up. In reality the reveneue that you talk about will most likely be swallowed by just being in the Prem. Massive debt like that would be a massive burdern and worry if we were to drop back down to the championship.

 

Again, why do you assume we would foot the bill for the debt?

 

... and wouldn't a 'free'* larger stadium help offset the premier league 'operating costs'?

 

* Free as is, paid for by the Leibherrs' to increase the value of their asset (just as you or I might build a concervatory to increase the cost of our house).

[John B]

I'm happy as SMS too. But why do you assume we would be indebted by building a new stadium. Might not the Leibherr's foot the bill and write it off against the increased value of their asset? Afterall, it's not like they are in favour of loans are they?

 

 

 

Again, why do you assume we would foot the bill for the debt?

 

... and wouldn't a 'free'* larger stadium help offset the premier league 'operating costs'?

 

* Free as is, paid for by the Leibherrs' to increase the value of their asset (just as you or I might build a concervatory to increase the cost of our house).

 

You seem to have the fincial acumen of George Osbourne

[Joensuu]

You seem to have the fincial acumen of George Osbourne

 

Ouch... I'd have preferred Vince Cable..

 

Let's put it this way. Your house is worth £300k. You spend £30k on an extension. If you are rich enough not to need to sell, you can demand that £30k back off any buyer, by only accepting offers over £330k. If in the meantime that £30k extension is increasing the amount you can rent the property for, how can you possibly lose?

 

Answer: You can only lose out if you decide you want (or need) to sell - and accept a lower offer, (which is somewhat negated if you happen to be a billionaire).

[Harry Faz]

Expansion is always a gamble - we might fill 50,000 when we are flying high - but should we fall back down to earth , the numbers will reduce similarly. I remember gates of 14k under the last season of the old regime. Im happy as we are now - no mortgage and a stadium that more than meets are current requirements. Sure id lovecit if we had 50,000 week in week out for a sustainable period, but not if it left us with huge debts and no means of meeting them - we have been down that road b4 - we might not be so lucky next time.

[buctootim]

Ouch... I'd have preferred Vince Cable..

 

Let's put it this way. Your house is worth £300k. You spend £30k on an extension. If you are rich enough not to need to sell, you can demand that £30k back off any buyer, by only accepting offers over £330k. If in the meantime that £30k extension is increasing the amount you can rent the property for, how can you possibly lose?

 

Answer: You can only lose out if you decide you want (or need) to sell - and accept a lower offer, (which is somewhat negated if you happen to be a billionaire).

 

Lets put it this way. You've just been relegated from the prem after one season. The gates have dropped to 22,000 but your overheads have increased (rates, stewarding, maintenance etc) because you rashly increased your stadium to 50,000 capacity. In addition the rattling around in a barn feeling to the new stadium is gradually reducing gates still further.

 

Has ther new stadium a) increased the selling value of the club or b) markedly reduced it.

[up and away]

Originally Posted by Joensuu

Richardson wasn't out of contract, he was signed for an 'undisclosed fee' - rumoured to be almost half a million. Then add to that the tribunal fee for Dickson...

 

So which club in Division 1 outspent us then?

As our club has a large revenue income we can spend more than otherb teams in League 1 but the point being made earlier I think was suggesting that not much money was coming from the Liebherrs to strengthen the team which does seem to be the case

 

You have to remember that the money paid out already for the club, players etc by Liebherr does not come free. Any other investment would be ploughing back into the purse, so it's definitely costing them.

 

We are still the biggest spenders in this league, with the biggest and most expensive squad. Add on all the infrastructure to both the club and the playing side and there has not been anyone in this league come near that. The main problem we have at present is being to buy real quality players that will make a difference for the future, something that looks impractical until we are actually there. The best policy at present is to plough money into the Academy and look for the other Oxo's, especially when you have a team made up of league 1 players of the season or others best assets. And our second string is up there against most teams in this league.

 

At the present there is not much more we can do than already happening. If and when we attain promotion, then we will all see clearly, but no indications apart from positive at the present.

[Joensuu]

Lets put it this way. You've just been relegated from the prem after one season. The gates have dropped to 22,000 but your overheads have increased (rates, stewarding, maintenance etc) because you rashly increased your stadium to 50,000 capacity. In addition the rattling around in a barn feeling to the new stadium is gradually reducing gates still further.

 

Has ther new stadium a) increased the selling value of the club or b) markedly reduced it.

 

To prospective buyers somewhere far closer to A than B. However, if the owner is rich enough, it doesn't matter, as they won't need to sell unless they receive the price they want to receive - i.e. fully recooping the cost of the stadium.

Edited 8 November, 2010 by Joensuu

[Wade Garrett]

Delusion is your perception of their opinion. In saying that it could be said that you ate delusional.

 

Put yourself in the owners shoes for a minute. Your are incredibly wealthy with for arguments sake £3 billion. Interest alone is upwards of 150million a year.

 

Now you have a football club that has a "nice" fairly new stadium that is restricted to 32,000. You look back to when it was in the Prem before and see that it virtually sold out every game for 5 years DESPITE the fact that in relative terms hardly any money was invested in the team.

 

As a business person you want to maximise your potential profits. Are you set up to do that now? No. You are limited to 32000 regular customers plus a bit of hospitality.

 

The cost of expanding St Marys to 50000 at say £2000 per seat (£1000 has been muted before) then that will cost £36 million. Even assuming an average crowd of 40000 and an average ticket price of just £25 that equates to £1 million just from tickets each game. Over a season ticket sales would be upwards of £19 million in the prem. In just TWO seasons the expansion cost is covered.

 

Over that time there would also be income fro TV/Sky around £50-60 million a season not forgetting sponsorship and retail sales and hospitality. You then factor in that over two years the interest the owner gets may well equate to £300,000,000.

 

If I was in the owners shoes I would look at building from scratch, future proofing the stadium and the club. Even spending £250,000,000 which is onviuosly huge would not put a debt on the club as the figures add up.

 

So in their shies what would you look to do

 

I don't like your figures. You seem to be forgetting things like wages and other costs.

[suewhistle]

Before we moved to SMS one of the directors was commenting that they had roughly budgeted for crowds of a third around 18k, a third around 24k and the rest, the top teams 28k, but presumably also hoping for some occasional bigger gates. In the event we saw what happened. Certainly going bigger would expand the market, allow decent prices for kids and students to recruit the fans of the future and obviously more corporate stuff. The roads are a problem but if the whole area were redeveloped I can see it being viable, introduce a tram/light railway service using existing infrastructure, even ferries across and down the Itchen, better bus services that load up and away on a shuttle basis at the end of games. How about better after match catering so that some people stay for a meal and/or drink after the game and a taxi and mini-bus rank for match days until later?

 

Do any of you remember your/the first game at SMS and walking there from the pub and then emerging into the bowl? I'd like that experience again but in an expanded stadium.

[SaintRichmond]

It could be true, it could be utterly made up. That's the beauty of Wikipedia.

 

There have been mentions and mumblings of Cortese negotiating with the council about the expansion of SMS onto the surrounding areas, with the suggestion that if that couldn't go ahead he would look to build a new stadium elsewhere.

 

It's all rumour and guesswork though. Anybody really in the know will be under very strict NDA terms so couldn't possibly comment, so take anything you read with a pinch of salt.

 

SMS IS a good Stadium, with one major drawback IMHO

 

GETTING THERE

 

With just a Footbridge over the Railway line, or a wander through the back streets from the Parks area, the Location leaves a lot to be desired

 

Stoneham was and still is the Best Site for a modern 21st Century Stadium

[Matthew Le God]

Building a whole new stadium would be financial suicide, and no bank is going to lend us the money under the present economic climate, nor with our record of repaying banks the mortgage on new stadiums. Unless all the finance came from the ML family it will never happen.

And lets face it, NC can't get the training ground finished on time without a some balls up that has suspended work, how is he going to manage with a 40k new stadium.

 

Personally I'm more than happy at SMS, not least because it's in town, with all the various transport and pre/post match entertainment options available.

 

The Liebherr's, since Markus' father Hans Liebherr started in business back in the 1940's, don't accrue debt. It is pretty much a family policy.

 

Any new stadium or expansion of St Mary's may well be paid for upfront, it isn't money lost as it adds value to the business and provides additional revenue sources.

[mcjwills]

St Mary's wont be expanded, we will move to a new ground.. talks have already happened.!!

 

We will just keep ST Mary's as a training ground and ground for the reserves and juniors to play on, that will really take the pee out of the skates

[aintforever]

If Cortese's plans are as ambitious as what is being said then an extension or new stadium is essential IMO.

 

I think many Saints fans underestimate the potential at the club, we regularly sold out SMS and that was without any real success or investment.

[Junction 9]

SMS IS a good Stadium, with one major drawback IMHO

 

GETTING THERE

 

With just a Footbridge over the Railway line, or a wander through the back streets from the Parks area, the Location leaves a lot to be desired

 

Stoneham was and still is the Best Site for a modern 21st Century Stadium

 

And how would you get there exactly?

 

I can't see Parkway train station being able to handle thousands of fans on a matchday, if they did how would you get accross the motorway junction on foot?

Other option would be if they provided car parking at the stadium, that rules out the fans that have a drink and I wouldn't wanyt to sit in a queue when 30,000+ fans all want to leave at the same time. Also, where is the nearest pub? Oh that's right there will be bars avaialble at the ground selling overpriced ****e beer like at SMS that we'll all be forced to drink in.

Stoneham being turned down and St Mary's being built was the best thing that ever happened to SFC.

[ericb]

Stoneham being turned down and St Mary's being built was the best thing that ever happened to SFC.

 

Spot on, i can't see how anyone living in the city would want it in some middle of nowhere out of town venue that's a pain to get to and is just there to bus people in and out of. I really can't stress how much it would damage the match day experience if we were just another out of town McStadium club.

 

i'd really be interested to know how many in favour of an out of town stadium actually live in Southampton, my guess would be very few since for those that do it's the perfect solution.

[Matthew Le God]

Spot on, i can't see how anyone living in the city would want it in some middle of nowhere out of town venue that's a pain to get to and is just there to bus people in and out of. I really can't stress how much it would damage the match day experience if we were just another out of town McStadium club.

 

i'd really be interested to know how many in favour of an out of town stadium actually live in Southampton, my guess would be very few since for those that do it's the perfect solution.

 

But if St Mary's can't be increased due to traffic problems surely it makes sense to relocate rather than let the stadium hold back the club as it tries to progress.

 

Yes, I'd like a stadium in the city, however if this isn't feasible then I'd quite happily accept a relocation (within reason) that allows the club to compete at the highest possible level. Within the next 10 -20 years, a 32k stadium won't be in the top 20 largest stadiums in the top flight. Many other clubs have plans for expansion, Saints need to keep up!

Edited 8 November, 2010 by Matthew Le God

[ericb]

Yes, I'd like a stadium in the city, however if this isn't feasible then I'd quite happily accept a relocation (within reason) that allows the club to compete at the highest possible level. Within the next 10 -20 years, a 32k stadium won't be in the top 20 largest stadiums in the top flight. Many other clubs have plans for expansion, Saints did to keep up!

 

Of course i want to us to compete at the highest level but at the expense of our soul? I've got to admit to a massive inner turmoil to what's happening at our club, on the one hand it's brilliant, we have for the first time in a long time got what looks like the right drive to really do something (should we get out of this division anyway).

 

BUT....

 

then i look at a board that have "interesting" relationships with the fans; press; football community (and if certain things i've heard are true a lot of other professionals too).

 

Add to that what i think when i look to clubs like Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester United and soon [if history is anything are to go by] Man City. They've lost their personality, and lost what it means to be a football club. Should you meet a Leicester, Burnley, Stoke or even the blue few and you know those people are from that place. You know they're proud of their city, and that football still means what it should, pride.

 

I've always said the day i see an out of town, 70,000 seater full of football tourists and with my city's football team being sold as a "global brand" it'll be time for me to give up football, because Southampton football club will be dead, and part of the cancer that's killing the sport in this country.

[sfc4prem]

Of course i want to us to compete at the highest level but at the expense of our soul? I've got to admit to a massive inner turmoil to what's happening at our club, on the one hand it's brilliant, we have for the first time in a long time got what looks like the right drive to really do something (should we get out of this division anyway).

 

BUT....

 

then i look at a board that have "interesting" relationships with the fans; press; football community (and if certain things i've heard are true a lot of other professionals too).

 

Add to that what i think when i look to clubs like Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester United and soon [if history is anything are to go by] Man City. They've lost their personality, and lost what it means to be a football club. Should you meet a Leicester, Burnley, Stoke or even the blue few and you know those people are from that place. You know they're proud of their city, and that football still means what it should, pride.

 

I've always said the day i see an out of town, 70,000 seater full of football tourists and with my city's football team being sold as a "global brand" it'll be time for me to give up football, because Southampton football club will be dead, and part of the cancer that's killing the sport in this country.

 

Bit overly-dramatic?

[dune]

How about a ground share with Pompey if a large stadium was built between the two cities?

[CB Fry]

and you base the size of our fanbase on what? The capacity? If the ground only holds 32,600 (or whatever it is) the maximum attendance is 32,600.

 

Unless you build it, they cannot come....

 

Your "fanbase" figure is based on the size of the stadium.

 

Remind me how many went to Wembley? 50,55000?

 

In the Premier league once re-established I see no reason why 40k is not regularly achievable. I think a stadium capacity of 44-48 k would achieve sell outs several times a season at least. It would also set the club up for future success, European adventures, European/world cup games down the line.

 

If the expansion was a second tier on three sides excluding the Itchen then even if "only" 32000 turned up for say Wigan it would still be a great atmosphere!! I also hope they would put more hospitality along the Kingsland!

 

Set the bar too low and you stifle success, set it too high and all you do is miss the target!!

 

 

If we were getting 30,000 regularly in League one, you'd have point. We're not, you don't.

[CB Fry]

Really is pathetic to bring it back to petty insults about me researching FM.

 

Saints between 2001 and 2005 averaged over 30k in a 32k stadium every year, including the relegation season! No need to wait until back in the Premier League, the club will know that the first season in the Premier League will see a return to over 20k season ticket holders/3k away fans/increased corporate interest etc etc. It will become difficult to get a ticket again if you aren't a season ticket holder.

 

A larger stadium also allows the club to be more flexible with ticket pricing and thus easier to build the supporter base even further. Until 2009 the club had never had real investment in the team if further player investment occurs the club will build the numbers of match going fans. If the Liebherr/Cortese really is to establish the side in the Premier League then a bigger stadium is needed. Cortese has already said as much in the March interview on the BBC.

 

 

If if if if if if if if if if.

 

If we were getting 30,000 gates in League one then we'd need a 50,000 stadium in the Prem. Our stadium is just right. Get over it.

[Matthew Le God]

So you think Saints could only get a maximum of 29,000 home fans vs Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs, Man City, Man Utd, Aston Villa, Everton, Newcastle for a top flight game? Yet can similar to that for a League One game vs Leeds and on boxing day vs Exeter?

[CB Fry]

So you think Saints could only get 29,000 max home fans vs Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs, Man City, Man Utd, Aston Villa, Everton, Newcastle for a top flight game?

 

"Only get". 29,000 fans is plenty and is a realistic figure ongoing. We're not going to get 38,000.

 

Everton and Villa can't get those kind of numbers through the doors at present. Stop kidding yourself that we would suddenly pull 10,000 regulars out of thin air.

[Saint_clark]

"Only get". 29,000 fans is plenty and is a realistic figure ongoing. We're not going to get 38,000.

 

Everton and Villa can't get those kind of numbers through the doors at present. Stop kidding yourself that we would suddenly pull 10,000 regulars out of thin air.

 

They disappeared into thin air after relegation, it's basic logic that they would reappear with promotion.

[CB Fry]

They disappeared into thin air after relegation, it's basic logic that they would reappear with promotion.

 

 

Wrong, that would take us back to an average of 30,000 as in our previous stint in the Prem. Our Computer Game friend is talking about another 10,000 kicking the door down week in, week out.

 

If we get to the CCC and average 30,000 for the season, let's talk about expanding the stadium.

[Whitey Grandad]

St. Mary's is more than adequate for the next few years and if we succeed beyond our wildest dreams then it can be expanded.

[Matthew Le God]

"Only get". 29,000 fans is plenty and is a realistic figure ongoing. We're not going to get 38,000.

 

Everton and Villa can't get those kind of numbers through the doors at present. Stop kidding yourself that we would suddenly pull 10,000 regulars out of thin air.

 

Saints were getting over 30k attendances vs the smaller Premier League teams between 2001 and 2005

 

Saints have got crowds of over 30k vs Championship and even some League One games since 2005

 

For attractive fixtures in the Premier League they got easily get significantly more than 32k. If over 50k were willing to travel to London for a small final like the JPT vs Carlisle, then a lot of them would also turn up for matches on their doorstep with little traveling required and cheaper tickets vs Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City, Liverpool, Aston Villa, Everton, Newcastle in the world's biggest League!

 

I'd argue a Premier League game at home vs the big 5 (Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Man City, Arsenal) is more attractive than a Wembley final in the JPT.

Edited 8 November, 2010 by Matthew Le God

[dune]

If if if if if if if if if if.

 

If we were getting 30,000 gates in League one then we'd need a 50,000 stadium in the Prem. Our stadium is just right. Get over it.

 

In the Premiership 30,000 + gates were the norm. We can fill bigger than that.

[MarkSFC]

The stadium "debate" proves the old addage that you can't please all the people all of the time!

 

Ideally I would welcome a 45-48,000 capacity "state-of-the-art" arena in or very close to the main city centre. For me most games are more of a day out with food and drinks before and/or after the game. Having the ground situated in an "out of town" location (like the Rose Bowl-although that's great) would not enhance my Saturday at footy!

 

Expanding St Marys keeps all of the benefits of being in the centre but logistically could be a nightmare unless the whole waterside area, train station, etc is dramatically improved. Because of the complexity of such infrastructure could prove more costly than makes sense so a new arena would possibly provide more value for money as well as allow for a totally fresh design, and hopefully an iconic one.

 

This may be a little left field but maybe a possible venue for a new arena could be at the sports centre situated on the athletics track area. Of course, some other parts would be lost but I wouldn't have thought it would be major.

 

In return, St Marys could be turned into an athletics venue. As well as providing the city with a new venue for athletic training it could easily attract major events.

 

It could also have speedway and/or dog racing filling the gap between Poole and Brighton/eastbourne for both sports.

 

Although not in the centre of the city if the sports centre did host a new arena travel in and out would be far more easy by car with park and rides easily set up on the common and and other areas. Walking from central station wouldn't be too bad and would help the taxi business up and down hill lane!! Those of us who like a few drinks before and/or after may find it less appealing than currently but there are plenty of pubs around (The Winston could be a footy pub again!).

 

I think there are many reasons to move, to expand, to stick, but for the good of Saints in the long term I believe a new arena is the best one.

[CB Fry]

Saints were getting over 30k attendances vs the smaller Premier League teams between 2001 and 2005

 

Saints have got crowds of over 30k vs Championship and even some League One games since 2005

 

For attractive fixtures in the Premier League they got easily get significantly more than 32k. If over 50k were willing to travel to London for a small final like the JPT vs Carlisle, then a lot of them would also turn up for matches on their doorstep with little traveling required and cheaper tickets vs Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City, Liverpool, Aston Villa, Everton, Newcastle in the world's biggest League!

 

I'd argue a Premier League game at home vs the big 5 (Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Man City, Arsenal) is more attractive than a Wembley final in the JPT.

 

 

The JPT wasn't a small final - it was a massive jolly up to the new wembley stadium that we might not go back to in a generation. The game wasn't important but the event was.

 

It wasn't some "chore".

 

It's not comparable to a league fixture against Man City in a middling Premier League season.

 

You build stadiums from the hard core up. If we fill 30,000 week in, week out in the second tier then we'd have a foundation for 10,000 extra seats in the Prem.

 

We won't. We don't.

[dune]

The JPT wasn't a small final - it was a massive jolly up to the new wembley stadium that we might not go back to in a generation. The game wasn't important but the event was.

 

It wasn't some "chore".

 

It's not comparable to a league fixture against Man City in a middling Premier League season.

 

You build stadiums from the hard core up. If we fill 30,000 week in, week out in the second tier then we'd have a foundation for 10,000 extra seats in the Prem.

 

We won't. We don't.

 

That's your opinion, nothing more. I doubt Nicola would share it because it's his ambition to turn us into a top Premiership club.

[Matthew Le God]

You build stadiums from the hard core up. If we fill 30,000 week in, week out in the second tier then we'd have a foundation for 10,000 extra seats in the Prem.

 

We won't. We don't.

 

2001/02

2002/03

2003/04

2004/05

 

All averaged over 30k in a 32k stadium. Including the relegation season! None of these season saw much in the way of investment in the team to attract fans. Rory Delap remains the record signing!

 

Which shows the "smaller" games also had big crowds and that the bigger games were limited by the 32k and segregation reducing capacity.

 

The club was limited by the 32k between 2001 and 2005, they weren't struggling to reach it! If you didn't have a season ticket it was hard to get a ticket, if you didn't have a season ticket and weren't a member it was nigh on impossible to get a ticket and they sold out often a week of more before the game.

 

Thankfully Nicola has more ambition for the club than you and has taken these figures in to account and stated the need for future expansion. He also has access to the ticketing database to have an idea of how many unique purchases of Saints fans there have been.

Edited 8 November, 2010 by Matthew Le God

[MarkSFC]

If we were getting 30,000 regularly in League one, you'd have point. We're not, you don't.

 

The point you so clearly miss is that the Premier League is top quality football (generally!). League One isn't yet we still get on average more fans than some do in the Prem.

 

Let's say we had a 48000 capacity then the away support could be as much as 4,800, that would leave 43,200 home seats.

 

In St Marys the away support is limited to 3,200 leaving around 29,400 home fans.

 

Therefore the required lift in home fans to sell-out every game is just under 14,000.

 

When we moved from the Dell the increase in home fans was about 15-16,000.

 

At Wembley we took "at least" 50,000 and could have sold thousands more.

 

I am sure that even in a dissappounting season in the Prem we would still sell 36-38,000. In a good season 46-48,000. On average 40-42,000 is definitely the right figure even if you think otherwise.

[CB Fry]

That's your opinion, nothing more. I doubt Nicola would share it because it's his ambition to turn us into a top Premiership club.

 

Yes - it's an internet forum. I only ever give my opinion. It's the slightly odd ball ones like you that take it slightly too seriously.

 

We'll see what Mr Cortese does and doesn't achieve, won't we.

[CB Fry]

2001/02

2002/03

2003/04

2004/05

 

All averaged over 30k in a 32k stadium. Including the relegation season! None of these season saw much in the way of investment in the team to attract fans. Rory Delap remains the record signing!

 

Which shows the "smaller" games also had big crowds and that the bigger games were limited by the 32k and segregation reducing capacity.

 

The club was limited by the 32k between 2001 and 2005, they weren't struggling to reach it! If you didn't have a season ticket it was hard to get a ticket, if you didn't have a season ticket and weren't a member it was nigh on impossible to get a ticket and they sold out often a week of more before the game.

 

Thankfully Nicola has more ambition for the club than you and has taken these figures in to account and stated the need for future expansion. He also has access to the ticketing database to have an idea of how many unique purchases of Saints fans there have been.

 

 

If we average 30,000 in the second tier, then let's look at expanding the stadium. We won't.

[benjii]

Cortese is a banker FFS.

 

There's no way we are going to debt-finance a football stadium, or an en expansion of one, in the current markets. So.... if there are any serious plans in this regard either:

 

a) they are a long way off and contingent upon establishing ourselves in the top flight first and a relaxation of project finance liquidity; or

b) we are seriously loaded.

[CB Fry]

The point you so clearly miss is that the Premier League is top quality football (generally!). League One isn't yet we still get on average more fans than some do in the Prem.

 

Let's say we had a 48000 capacity then the away support could be as much as 4,800, that would leave 43,200 home seats.

 

In St Marys the away support is limited to 3,200 leaving around 29,400 home fans.

 

Therefore the required lift in home fans to sell-out every game is just under 14,000.

 

When we moved from the Dell the increase in home fans was about 15-16,000.

 

At Wembley we took "at least" 50,000 and could have sold thousands more.

 

I am sure that even in a dissappounting season in the Prem we would still sell 36-38,000. In a good season 46-48,000. On average 40-42,000 is definitely the right figure even if you think otherwise.

 

Pie in the sky. Even if we finished top ten in the Prem three years in a row we wouldn't hit those kind of average attendences.

[Special K]

We don't need to up the capacity anytime soon. Ironically enough, ticket sales (and numbers) are more important now to the club than if we were a PL club. We get magic crowds for a League One club, we'll get really good crowd figures for a Championship club and average for a PL club, which is when TV money makes up the vast majority of any PL clubs finances. SMS is great for the moment.

[MarkSFC]

Pie in the sky. Even if we finished top ten in the Prem three years in a row we wouldn't hit those kind of average attendences.

 

You probably thought we wouldn't fill St Marys when we were building that. If you actually provided some real proof your opinion may have some weight but you don't. You simply make statements.

[benjii]

We don't need to up the capacity anytime soon. Ironically enough, ticket sales (and numbers) are more important now to the club than if we were a PL club. We get magic crowds for a League One club, we'll get really good crowd figures for a Championship club and average for a PL club, which is when TV money makes up the vast majority of any PL clubs finances. SMS is great for the moment.

 

This is true although if you're thinking ground redevelopment, I think you need to be thinking about additional revenue streams other than "fan" ticket sales (retail, corporate, diversification of events etc...)

[buctootim]

If you actually provided some real proof your opinion may have some weight but you don't. You simply make statements.

 

Hello? Wheres your proof of averaging 47,000? Its just a made up wishful figure. There isnt a city in the country of comparable size that sustains that kind of support. Even Sunderland with a 30% bigger population and not much else to do only average 39,000. Using the JPT as a model is misleading at best. I average about 5 games a season, as do my niece, nephews and assorted partners. My bro and sister average about 12 games. Yet we all went to JPT, along with my two small kids. You might get to 60,000 for a once every 30 years trip to Wembley, but only 35-36,000 average for a good season in the Pemiership imo.

Edited 8 November, 2010 by buctootim

[Smirking_Saint]

I agree, i think that we could happily sell out St Mary's every week in the prem and so could benefit from a stadium upgrade however, realistically we would probably peak at around 40k i would say.

 

Averaging highish 30's, perhaps around the 40 mark if we have a cracking season. 47k or more is a massive crowd and i honestly can't see us achieving that. Southampton is not a big enough city.

[sfc4prem]

A capacity increase to about 39,500-40,500 should be about right for us. We can think about a 49,000+ stadium when we're solidly finishing in the top 8 of the PL each season.

[CB Fry]

You probably thought we wouldn't fill St Marys when we were building that. If you actually provided some real proof your opinion may have some weight but you don't. You simply make statements.

 

What exactly do I need to provide "proof" for - I've given my opinion and set a challenge. The day we hit 30,000 averages in the league below is when we're ready for this mystical 48,000 seats in the Prem.

 

Where's your proof of us filling 48,000 seats every freaking week?

 

PS - it's a an internet message board, not a Commons Inquiry. Making statements of opinion is just fine.

Edited 8 November, 2010 by CB Fry

[aintforever]

Saints support is a bit of an unknown quantity, the only time we've had any success is when we were at The Dell which limited what we could attract, and that was decades ago.

 

We have a hardcore of about 15K but fans do come from all over the place when there is a hint of success. I know for a fact that there was over 200,000 on the database during our later Prem years. That was unique individual purchaser of tickets. Our home game with Chelsea in 03/04 sold out in 6hrs.

 

A good Prem team would see us knocking on 40,000 IMO.

[Matthew Le God]

This is an interesting read...

 

http://www.sthelens.oxon.sch.uk/Geography/Downloads/Geopress%20Factsheets/Geo%20factsheets/149%20Greenfield%20v%20Brownfield%20-%20Sports%20stadia.pdf